The Mistake Men Keep Making (with Dr. Daniel Ellenberg)

Jason Lange: All right, and welcome back, everybody. I am very excited today to be joined by Dr. Daniel Ellenberg. And I want to set this one up for you because Daniel has been working with men for decades. Like long before the headlines about men and loneliness, long before men's work had podcasts, Daniel was in the room with men doing the work. So just to give you a sense of who this man is, when the American Psychological association needed someone to lead its Society for the Psychology of Men and Masculinities, they chose Daniel, and he served as its presidents president. And in 2024, that same society of his peers named him practitioner of the year. That's the field itself saying, this is a man who knows how to work with men. He's also the founder of the Men and Boys Compassion Coalition and is the co creator of Strength with Heart men's groups and workshops. And even more important than that, here's why I really wanted Daniel here today. Many of us men, myself included, never had an elder. And even fewer of us ever had a man in our lives who spent a lifetime learning how men actually heal and grow and who could pass that down to us. So today, I'm very excited that we get to sit down and spend some time with someone who's done just that. Good morning.

Daniel Ellenberg: Good morning, Jason. Good to be with you.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'm so, so excited to get here with you and be here with you. And I had the pleasure of meeting you in person recently at a men's conference and seeing you speak and was just immediately drawn to you and your transmission. And then turns out you've been working with a close friend of mine to bring even more men's work into the world. Keith Martin-Smith, who I had on a couple of months ago. And you guys have a really cool offering you're going to launch soon that I certainly want to really get into and talk about here. But, you know, I'm really curious. Just kind of. One of the things I'm very excited to talk to you about, Daniel, is the long view. Right, because you've been in this field, like I said, for a long time and gotten to see kind of where did it all start and where is it landing? And I'm just curious, just off the top of your head, what shifts have you seen since you first stepped into this work?

Daniel Ellenberg: Well, for starters, more interest. I was an early adapter, and I actually, I'm 72 now, so I. I guess I have become an elder. It's. It's a weird thing, okay. If you don't die, you Just keep getting older. I used to be the youngest guy actually involved with this stuff. I started doing men's something with it when I was 26. So it was like 46 years ago. And it got involved in it. Leaderless men's group back then there were some conferences including Bly's Things and I started doing some of the mythopoetic work. Some ambivalence about Bly himself and that's a whole other story. But I've been, I've been on the block and I was actually connected with a bunch of guys who were doing men's work. As I said back in the day, one never knows when the day was because it's been. It says it was, you know. But we formed a group called Richard, we called the Guild and has been going for 38 years at this point. So it's a leaderless men's group. Guys who are all doing men's work in the Bay Area, San Francisco in the 80s. So you know, I've seen just an increasing interest, you know, in the recognition that oh, men have feelings. I remember I was on the, I was on a, I was gonna call it a podcast, but they weren't podcasts in radio show when I was 30, actually 29, I think I was so. And it was called the Gentle, the Joy of Brotherhood. Right. And this guy asked me this question, he said some people say that men don't have feelings. Do men have feelings? And I just had to resist making a sarcastic comment, you know, being from New Jersey. And also just kind of restrained myself, shocked that I was able to. And I said yes, men have feelings. I do believe. But I think there's an increasing recognition over the years that you know, people too, they're not just androids, they're not just war machines, they're not just warriors, they're not just occupational hearts that be and feel. And so there's, there's been growing movement. It's. It's, you know, like evolution. It's not a straight line. More interest, a lot also a lot more negativity to I was in general last couple decades, you know, in particular and you know, to those of us like you. And I know for me you're trying to find that mid path where black women support women. Gender fluid people only. We also need to recognize that boys and men have a lot of difficulties and they're not simply just privileged as some might say. What's your problem?

Jason Lange: Yeah, and what, you know, what first got you to step into a room or step into the leaders group or, or turn towards some kind of men's work in your life. Even back then when, you know, you

Daniel Ellenberg: were 26, accidentally, you know, I was looking for. I was in graduate school in psychology at the time. I was looking for some type of group. And I've heard it being some leaderless men's group. And because not the least natural. I was just talking about. And I got involved with obviously youngest guy in there. And it was interesting. Good in some ways, not so good in other ways. And I thought this group could be a lot better with a really good facility. And that's actually what got me to start facilitating men's groups.

Jason Lange: Yeah, super cool. And it just strikes me, even then and certainly now, what do you find makes a good facilitator in terms of working with men?

Daniel Ellenberg: I think it's. It's the willingness and the ability to look both within and really pay attention to your own experience as a person, as a man, as a facilitator, and also have a wide angle for the group and the people in the group, as well as a kind of compassion for the joys and sorrows that each man carries. And to be, you know, focused on helping to bring those out. I don't quote the Bible. I heard this one great point, Paul, that was like, if you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not destroy you. And I. I think that's really. It's a powerful quote because in some level, we all have different parts of ourselves that want to be seen, want to be in relationship. We get messages that say for that time to. Don't say that you'd be ashamed. If you do show weakness, show vulnerability. And ironically, it is that willingness to be seen to be intimate in the sense of the phonetic of intimacy, into-me-see. That ability, willingness to be. To be seen. That's healing. And as a facilitator, you want to help people kind of come out. And I know that like coming out has been a term for being a gay man. I thought it's. But it's fine. It's used, but I think it's too narrow because all of us have our own process that we would. Gay night gay as well. We have our own facilitated a green encourage that rather than shame that which we don't see.

Jason Lange: I love that I'm just coming off a retreat I led and you're just putting words to, you know, what is honestly the most joyful part for me is when, you know, I think how I was Kind of digesting it these last days is, yeah, when I see a man's spirit, like, fully come through in that kind of radically vulnerable way of. The masks kind of drop, and there's, you know, sometimes like a. An innocence or a boyfulness, not. Not necessarily a child, but like something that was not okay for a long time. Right. That fills a man. Like, literally fills a man out. It's so great when I get to see it. Like, energy coming through the eyes, face brightens. And, you know, I'm curious. You've worked with. You know, I probably. You probably can't even count. I don't even know how many men at this point. What are some of the things you've seen over the years? You know, just at the kind of broad level, like that men do have a challenge bringing forward, bringing out from that kind of inner place that our culture says, no, you can't do that, or other men say, you can't do that, or they're just, you know, afraid to.

Daniel Ellenberg: Absolutely. There's nothing overly theoretical, but there is an interesting theory. And gender were called precarious manhood. And it's. It's actually empirically studied. And like, just give you a quick example. Let me make a connection to what you're saying, which is they had two groups of men who were doing the same braiding of some rope. And one was just simply rope and everything, braiding it. The other, the rope was connected to a female doll. So they did exactly the same thing. And then the next intervention was, there's a punching bag. And it turned out that the men who had been braiding the doll punched the punching bag way more intensely than the ones who were just braiding. And experiment after experiment showed that men were trying to reestablish their sense of masculinity because they're, like, canonized by being, you know, with. With the female doll. And so I think that when you think about, like, essentially how guys are raised, which is intensive, precarious manhood model, you learn to. To prove your masculinity. And like, it's. It's hard to do an easy to lose, and it must be done in public, you know, and so what is. What is seen as feminine? And this is where I think something just so wrong. Often the culture is changing, certainly some as part of what I've seen, but it's the indictment about showing vulnerability, which has been associated with femininity and not being male and being weak is really at the core. It's like the linchpin that holds the whole system together. And so what you're talking about, Jason, is that a guy there in the retreat, I'm sure more than one were taking the mask off and having the courage, ironically, to show something that has been like. It's been an indictment against culturally that somehow because, like, you're showing your weakness by like, really like, hello, like, you want to talk about vulnerability? Let's talk about death. Right socket from dying. Just. Just do that. So ultimately, we are. We human animals, as I like to call us. We're vulnerable creatures and we can be dangerous, we can be wounded, will eventually die. And so how is it that we don't have vulnerability and that vulnerability is a weakness? Not at all. And so that man was actually showing his strength. And that's what I mean. As someone who's led a lot of retreats myself, and I've led 40 years of weekly men's groups and numerous men's groups at a time. And I'm telling you that I almost felt teary with this because it's back so many memories of all these stepped up and really had the courage to go beyond the cultural shaming, you know, vulnerability that it's just so endemic and epidemic and frustrating and people really stop. Come on, give me yet to really see the full range of these guys are being human. And that's what connects us, and that's where the real relationship lies. And without that, you know, we're just sterile, you know, and antiseptic and hidden in a box of natural. So you're talking about the man box being enclosed and suffocating emotionally. And so kudos to you to be doing this work. All the men, for example, and whoever's just recognizing that this is insane. It's like, I think about. There's an ancient Turkish saying that says, no matter how far you've gone in the wrong direction, there's no shame in turning back. And I think a lot of us are trying to turn back and open up to just human what it be. And it doesn't care the full range of being human. I would like that to be accessible. Doesn't identify as either. Like, why is this male? This fits. It's insane.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's funny. I was just talking about that yesterday of, you know, men's work is really just human work. It's the work of becoming human. They're just, you know, there's some easier doorways to that sometimes when we're around mental men who have been raised in a similar culture or have some similar experiences because of, I think, what you're speaking to and I've. You Know, it blows me away every time I see it, that when, that when a man goes. Steps forward and brings himself forward, the. The resounding. Obviously, the men that come to me are self selecting, but the resounding impact in the room is holy. Thank you. That was actually brave. That was courageous. I. I trust you more. And then some part of them starts to get the signal, well, if he can do that, maybe I could do that.

Daniel Ellenberg: Exactly. That's exactly right.

Jason Lange: And it radiates through the room, right?

Daniel Ellenberg: Well, we're social beings, you know, and we learn through modeling and imitation, you know, and so if you're in group where everyone's like this, fighting, you know, and you're like this, it just doesn't fit. Like, you think about being in your family. Like, if you think about family, like, there's the family body and you think about family, like, if you see me, like, everyone's like this, uhhuh. Like this. But then there's one kid like this. And so you. You find a way to fit in because we're wired to survive, you know, to thrive, you know, and so that fitting in and being part of triggers kind of ancient survival issues. So if you stand out too much, you can become a target. And so we find a way to fit into our tribes. We're. We're tribal social beings. And so when you're in a particular context, they are in a men's group where it's a different culture and you're actually encouraged rather than discouraged to show up. It's kind of like what part of you has been yearning for that? It's like, really, if you some way, consciously, unconsciously, often the latter, you know, there's just a sense of because something breaks, you know, that's part of what brings people to you and did bring people to me, this sense of there's something wrong, I want more.

Jason Lange: It's beautifully put in the, you know, certainly more and more, I think, because I'm getting there, you know, working with guys in middle age and that's. I think you just named the thing they can't always name is life feels confined and restricted, and I don't feel free. And for the last, you know, often, for the first 20 years of a man's life, he thinks that, you know, they often, and I did too, you know, think that freedom's gonna come from, oh, the bigger paycheck, the hotter girlfriend, the. The. The better abs. And then it. It doesn't. It doesn't. It doesn't actually free us in the way we think. And I think what you're naming is that. Yeah, that. That kind of freedom to bring ourselves fully forward and feel like as simple as that is just feel. And it again, it astounds me. And you know, I'm more and more as I work with guys, I'm like, this is masculine leadership now to go first, right? To be the one that says, here I am. This hurts. Or this is awesome. Sometimes that's just as edgy for some guys. Like, hey, I'm doing great actually. And it's like, well, you can just be great. Great.

Daniel Ellenberg: Exactly. I think the braids are one of them. From what you just shared, Jason, was to bring ourselves forward. And I think that one of the ways that guys get stuck is that they think they have one self. You know, one aspect. I think part of what's been really freeing for me, and I can't say that it's been from earlier in my life, it wasn't as I really came to, to see that it's not just about like self acceptance, it's about selves acceptance, you know. And so that I know for me, like I'm very strong and clear and confident in some ways I'm weaker, more insecure, more dubious in other ways. And for me there was a way that was. I felt ashamed about the ways that I just weren't that good. Even though I had a big technical issue trying to get into this. I'm like, I'm not great, you know, with computers and things like that or building. I'd be like, oh my God, I can't do. I think I don't find that. And I've just come to go, like, I can celebrate the parts of me that are pretty cool and together. And I can, when I can be embracing of those other parts, I don't need to like be all things to all people, including myself. And so I think when you think about man's groups and the situations where guys can reach for, hey, you're cool here. I'm going to be in place for that. And looks so great here like this. This is really hard for me. Like, okay, well, I have hard parts of me. It may not be that, it may be something else. And I think that the more that we are open about who we are, where easily that we form groups where we can actually be more active as a group. Because this whole thing about the strong individual is in charge of everything. The alpha dog, it's not what alphas are in nature. It's just this stupid absurd version. And ironically, when guys are so Driven by that whole, you know, masculinity, you know, identity. They're. They're obviously weaker, and we see this in terms of health. They die younger, they have less friends, they have less connected relationships. They're more dependent. Ironically, they won't admit it.

Jason Lange: You're right. I know. Yeah. Yeah. You know, one of my favorite things that come at the tough guys with sometimes is the, you know, it's. You know, you can.

Daniel Ellenberg: There's.

Jason Lange: This is what it is in our culture, but often the pinnacle. Right. Of warrior in American kind of culture is the seal. But guess what? It's SEAL team. It's SEAL team. It's not seal. Because the team is more effective than the individual for all the reasons you're pointing to. And I love what you shared because it's certainly been my experience in my groups and that bringing my. All my selves in and realizing the men in my group have selves and some of ourselves are better at some things than other things. And as I acknowledge the things, you know, parts of me are not so good at, the. The other thing that is really edgy for me and so many men I. I work with now is, well, when we admit that, guess what becomes available. People can help us in the things we're not great at. Right. Where it's like, oh, my God, hey, I'm. I'm not so good at this thing. Could you. Would you be willing to help me out? Yeah, I'll help you out. And they come in and they handle the thing in like, 10 minutes. That would have taken me, you know, five days of on the Internet. And it's been one of the edgiest things for me to, like, feel that. And, you know, it is such a shift in that, you know, like our mutual friend Keith. Right. There's things I'll go to Keith with where I'm like, tell me what to do, because you know what to do here. I don't. And there's other things where I'm like, I'm going to tell you what to do, because I know what to do here and you don't. And having that kind of group culture, I think, has been so liberating for me to get. Get out of that. I still catch myself. I got to do it all by myself. I got to figure it out, bro.

Daniel Ellenberg: Of course. I mean, you think about how the brain forms, you know, like that early, early conditioning around doing it alone, and it's shameful to ask for help, even directions. You know, like the whole joke about men won't ask for directions, you're driving around for five hours when it's actually a few blocks away, and to just ask, now they have gps. This is helpful with male shame. But I think that's such an important part. And it's like admitting acknowledging that you ain't perfect, you ain't that. Hello. That's part of being human and it's part of connections. And I think, for me, I think I was. I was. I know I was a very early adapter, so to speak, in terms of acknowledging vulnerabilities. And that really helped me develop strong friendships with women also, but certainly with a lot of men over the years. And I hear that so many men had none, maybe one that they call a close friend. And when you really hear, do they actually acknowledge what's going on in their lives, with their lives or their businesses or places that they're in doubt to help? Do they. Do they really share vulnerability? It's a small percentage, and that's what needs to change. That, I believe, is really at the core, You know, transformation, where it's like, hey, you know, if we're not in this together, we're. We're kind of scared, basically. We can see some of that on the global stage. It's a mess. Yeah.

Jason Lange: And so I. I have this question I've asked a few men that I'd love to get your perspective on, which is just, what do you. What do you tell the tough guys that they're missing or not getting? But then also, you know, a lot of men I work with and I consider myself. And what do you tell the kind of nice guys who are maybe a little too collapsed in what they're missing or what they need to bring?

Daniel Ellenberg: Well, I think it better in terms of the most. I think the most important continuum that exists, you know, which is on the one side we have openness, extreme openness. On the other side, we have extreme defensiveness. And, you know, sometimes people can be too open. I'm not saying to, you know, when they can't. When a cashier asks you, how are you doing? I'm so glad you were asking me that question. You know, that's such a hard thing. They're not asking for openness. It's just a way of saying, hello, you're human, I'm human. Let's not treat each other like robots in a way. But most of the time it's more in a territory of defensiveness. And I think about defense, I get preferred. Basically, there's a go look, we're human animals or human Animals, as I call this, before we feel threatened. The first portal of any relationship is safety versus threat. Threats automatically trigger defensive reactions. Fight, flight, freeze, appease of some type or other. And I would say when you say the nice guys, they'd be more in the territory of freeze or appease. And if you want to talk about the tough guys, they'd be more in the territory of fight. But they're all defensive reactions to the experience of threat, you know. And so most people, you have to, if you think about like there are different systems, you know, in, in the human one of, in the brain, where essentially there's, there's the actual, the visceral system where actually you're in a defensive reaction, but then there's the awareness system. Like, do you know you are, do you know you're defending against something you. And they don't often connect. And that's a lot of what happens with male psych. I have defense. What do you mean? This is me. I'm open with, what's your problem? You're saying that, I mean, I'm messing around right now. But I've heard the, I've certainly heard these things and I go like, tune into your body right now. If you actually tune into your body, you notice, really notice that there's something tightening in you. It's armoring. And armoring is defense. And so it really has to do with how can you become flexible. So I think it's perfectly fine to say no, but you also have to be able to say yes. Like, if you can't, if you can't say no, your yes can't be trusted. If you can't say yes, then you're not in relationship, you know, essentially, you know. And so how do, in terms of somebody who's really, really tough, tough, tough. I, I'm, I mean, I'm quite capable of being tough. I, I have that side of myself, you know, so there's a part of me that's a warrior, like, okay, okay, I'll go toe to toe again. And I did, I mean, many times in groups. And I, I, I don't want to say I've been to the wars, but I've been tested so many times. And you know, there are times I got super defensive, active. And I think that the work is continually going back to get more room. I just got defensive. I'm aware and I'm acknowledged that and, and to apologize even many feelings to many people, many of the feelings I used to be. So I don't tend to get into those Rattles like I used to. But it's the willingness to be open and to really focus on what's true. And I think about truth as a combination of honesty and awareness. Honesty is what I'm actually saying interpersonally. Awareness of what I'm actually experiencing within myself. Intro personally. So in other words, I can be aware without being truthful. If I'm not honest, and I can be honest without being truthful. I'm not actually aware, you know, what's going on. I'm not. I'm not scared. What do you mean scared? Like I'm saying something, which is what I believe, honestly. Because actually I'm just not aware that I actually am like that feels threatened.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I love that. I mean, you're just blowing my mind with, you know, a frame for experiences. I've had both getting reflection from men in my men's group and offering.

Daniel Ellenberg: Right.

Jason Lange: Men I coach and in men's work. Yeah. That's such a killer. Amazing expression of truth in it. Yes. And oftentimes, you know, my journey initially was, well, get aware of what's happening in my body because I had no idea, like, how are you today? I'm good. I'm fine. I'm okay. Like that. That was asking.

Daniel Ellenberg: Yeah. Production.

Jason Lange: Okay. That was my. That was my. The limit of my interoception for probably the first, you know, 25, 30 years of my life. And now that I can kind of get a sense of it, my edge has been, okay, now bring it forward right now. Be able to speak that. Whereas before, Before I didn't really have either of those online. So, hey, I'm going to one out of two now. So I'm getting there. I'm getting there.

Daniel Ellenberg: So I'll bet you say things about your inner experience, don't you?

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. Now, Now I can right now. Now it's easier for me to bring that forward because I'm more aware of it. My edge is, right, more the nice guy thing of. Well, what happens if I bring my edge, my inner awareness forward? But it creates conflict. Right. That's where I've had to get better at coming forward.

Daniel Ellenberg: So ask. What. What happens?

Jason Lange: Yeah, the. The lived experience I have is it actually creates way more connection, paradoxically, like, people feel closer to me. Our relationships deepen. The, the, the habit in the programming from childhood was don't go there. So that's what, you know, I'm updating in really in men's group more than anywhere else in my intimate relationship. Those are the two places where I'm Practicing this the most and then everywhere else becomes easy in some ways compared to that.

Daniel Ellenberg: Well, I mean it's, it's also how, how do you bring that forward? I mean for me I think we have different characters. And so for me I would bring that challenging conflictual confronting part four. But I got in a lot of trouble because I wasn't aware that I was actually being competitive in a negative sense or you know, I buy something, I'm gonna be saying screw you and being thinking I'm being honest about that. But I wasn't going to a deeper level of awareness that I should have felt really hurt and that I was attempting to, you know, you hit me with a stick, I'm gonna hit you back. You know, we're imagining I'm just being honest. And so there. And that's part of what my, my own journey has been like. A lot of people are reacting negatively to this. What's wrong with that? You know? You know, I, I, I love this on dysfunction where there's a demotivators was there's this picture of a chain and one broken link. And the same thing with dysfunction. It says the one common feature in all of your dissatisfying relationships is you. You know, and it's kind of like okay, well a lot of my relationships are dissatisfying. What's, what's the one common link in there? Oh, it must be me. What am I doing? And so that was actually part of what led me into wanting to see people. And it was a misapprehended way that tempting connect by being blunt and which I saw in my father. And my father was a major rager. And so that was my role model there. I just role modeled it. And when it didn't go that well for him, gee, it's gonna go well for me. And finally I live long enough to and have enough desire deeper connection with people that I start to change that way as a look at, you know, is, is it worth saying so my, I heard an acronym from a friend colleague many years ago workshop together and share this acronym WAIT which stands for why am I talking? And so I do apply that like my wife, she says something irritates me and I just know that if I, if I respond in ways that I have in ways I have I can predict when it's going to go. I can just see the movie. And I got like think I want to go into that theater right now. And so just kind of like I don't, I don't say nearly as much as I Used to. So my, my purpose has been actually to kind of move back and metabolize and is this important to say now? We'll still say things, you know, to people if it's, if it feels important. But a lot of times I'm containing more, you know, than I used to. I mean, I think that for a lot of guys there's this whole dynamic between expression on one hand and containment on here. There's people that like totally uncontained and it's just like, we don't like what you're up there. Build more of a container. Some people are too contained. They need to express themselves. It's not a one size fits all. I think that's when we look at men's work, we're not looking at like man as some monochromatic, you know, organism. It's like we're all different. We've all had different experiences. And you had mentioned this, this course that I'm doing with Keith Martin-Smith and actually James Baraz, who was a pretty well known Buddhist teacher. And you know, we've gotten responses back, you know, through the marketing, like, hey, is there. What do you think? You know, you use the word strength. Did you talk about. There are these concerns that come up, which I understand. But then when people, bottom line want to know is, is it going to be safe for me? Is there room for me to be me? Is there openness, you know, to my particular experience and expression about being a guy? And my answer to that is yes. But I also also recognize that, you know, a lot of most guys have been seriously wounded and they're, they're peasant, you know, be truthful, right? And, and so how do you, you know, how do you create a context in which people feel safe enough, you know, to step forward and take risks? You don't. There is a risk reward quotient there. And bottom line is you. Even if everyone's like, please tell us your deepest, darkest secret, sacrist, like likey crazy like you, you may like me if I say this and this. Maybe that. May be proof of that. There may be like something is when molest a child and they feel ashamed. There are some certain things that some guys are holding that really difficult and will be difficult to hear. So it's, it's the final word for the receiver of that to go like what part of me? And how can I make a room for that part or parts of somebody else? And so even when you're talking about this guy who's showing up in your room and being open, well, he's giving permission on some love for other people and they're sitting there like, can I bring or, or even about myself. So it's all this whole dynamic interplay of acceptance, rejection, you know, it's all going on. And when you think about what we learn in the culture like this, I mean, it's crazy. And so this is utterly new territory that I'm, I mean, I've been exploring for a lot, many decades at this point. You also feel saddened when I look out. I mean, technologically so, or consciousness, perspective.

Jason Lange: Yeah, well you've, you've given us a tailwind, that's for sure. And you know, I'm curious, looking back at all the men you've spent time with, what are some of the big mistakes you see men just keep making generation after generation?

Daniel Ellenberg: Well, you were pointing to one earlier, which is needing to do it alone, you know, and underneath that is, is there, is there room for me to be here? All of me, Beauty, beauty warts and all. Because when you think about this whole thing of exclusion, I mean, one of the things that I've been really struck by in the whole DEI movement and not to go into the whole political craziness around that, is that I never heard in the broader public anything about internal dei, you know, like we're so focused on external DEI and all the aspects of that, but in terms of your own internal diversity, equity, inclusion. So for most of us, we're actually pretty open to including certain parts of ourselves, but we are very exclusive of other parts of ourselves. And I think that, that when you ask me about what has been a predominant theme, it's been about excluding certain parts, you know, of oneself. And so when you're in rejection or in shame about certain parts, and so you don't even want to be aware of it yourself because the brain is very powerful at subverting awareness. You know, as one interpersonal neuro scientist said, Mother Nature has not seen fit to invest much neural architecture in self awareness. You know, we're much more aware of others, you know, foibles and you know that. And instead of looking at our own in a, in a reasonable way, not just, oh, I'm a shitty person, I'm awful, I'm, you know this. But actually in a more dispassionate, objective way of looking. So like that's a part of me and I don't have to get all bent out of shape or emotional, but like, yeah, you know, there's a part of me that's negatively competitive, that doesn't Want, you know, even a friend sometimes to do well. I also do want them to do well, but I have to be aware of the part of me that can feel competitive, like a crab. Some crab is getting out of the pot or something. And I don't tend to act on it, but I'm aware that's a part of me instead of being. Excluding that part and go, oh, my God, so terrible. I should be more involved than that. I should, I should. I should. Or I should there say, can I, you know, that's part of the dance, that's part of the experience and have room for that. And I haven't seen over the years a deeper, ongoing macro movement for this kind of cells, you know, inclusion in a way, and recognizing that, yeah, you have strength and weaknesses, and we're talking about that. But if we're gonna have to be whole men, we gotta, you know, be embracing of different parts. Even parts you wish weren't there, but. But they are. Too bad.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Daniel Ellenberg: Oh, beautiful.

Jason Lange: I just hadn't ever thought about turning that frame internally.

Daniel Ellenberg: And then.

Jason Lange: Yeah, that's. That's the work. That's the work I've been seeing men do is right. Yeah. Like, bring these parts forward and be okay. And the. I've had that hard line in myself where I'm like, I'm okay with this part. I'm okay with this part. I'm not okay with this part. And they're like, you really not okay with that part? Because that part looks okay to me. No, I'm not okay with this part. Nothing you can tell me is going to make me okay with this part. And it's like this hard defense and then the. The hilarious thing. Not hilarious, but the. The movement I often see and why I'm so passionate. I think about groups and in the way you are. I see another man bring forward that part, and I'm like, dude, that part's so lovable. You're, like, so hard on yourself. What are you talking about? And then they turn it on me. I'm like, nope. But it starts to open something right? In that process of, oh, wait, maybe I've had this experience in group, right. Maybe this frame I have of myself and this part of myself is bullshit. Is it that? Or is it the nine other guys looking at me and they're all full of. Which one's more likely? Like, really? And it's like, oh, well, I think it's probably me that needs to update.

Daniel Ellenberg: No, don't chase. It must be them.

Jason Lange: Yeah, exactly right. Another question I have for you is, you know, you've seen, you know, the culture we've been riding through these last years and how would you, or how do you work with men or how do you talk about like the difference between compassion for us men and our pain and what we've gone through and are actually taking responsibility for what hurt we've caused in the world or how we've co created it, this kind of fine line in some sense of not, you know, and I'm still trying to figure out not demonizing all men because that's all bullshit. The toxic masculinity, that's all bullshit. It's just, it's not useful. And we got some work to do as men, right? Like all the things you've been talking about so we can come into deeper relationship with ourselves and each other. How do you work that, that line of compassion?

Daniel Ellenberg: Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. I mean that's a, that's one of the biggest questions imaginable right there. Which is to say like I, I stopped leading men's groups over two and a half years ago. I did them for 40 years. And so I'm, I'm actually not in the, the throes of just the weekly experience. I mean I am in larger contexts now in terms of, you know, connecting with different organizations like November Ecamundo and you know, looking at, I'm part of the global Compassion Coalition where I have the Men and Boys Compassion Coalition. I'm really looking at larger macro theme. So that, that is the territory of like what is going to, going on culturally. And I, I think that there's, there's, it's so complex. So like in the Men and Boys Compassion Coalition we have like a kind of a triangle or look at, we want to inspire more compassion from boys and men toward others, you know, compassion toward themselves self compassion and more compassion toward boys than men. I can tell you that that's far and away the hardest sell because there are a lot of women who are saying that, you know, they've caused me harm, you know, I'm wounded. I'll see this in female psychologists. I mean the American Psychological association to get a men's caucus is like men like man as an interest group. But they're the, they're the ones who have caused all the damage. And I just think it's incredibly shortsighted and small minded, you know, to see things through that because you know, if you really look at what is it that leads to abuse, it's abuse. You know, the people who are abused tend to abuse and when you think about, you know, the abuse that happens to little boys around their emotional nature and don't show that man up and don't be a pussy and don't. Don't be a wuss and all these. These things that are really part of your core part being that you are told is. And shameful. And so you wind up subverting that. And again, it want. It turns into something that it wasn't. So the. There's no simple answers for this. But I do think that, again, if you. Despite whatever the conditioning is, if you hurt people and you've done things that are less than compassionate, I think it's important to be aware of that and to acknowledge that and really work to be better. So I think that, I mean, I. I gotta hold myself to a pretty. I stand elect many people through the years, and I think I do that less than they used to. And, you know, if I'm off and I do something, if I disagree with you, Jason, I want to know that and say, hey, I didn't get it. I didn't see it. I can see your point, you know, or if I kind of like, well, I misunderstood. I didn't. I think I said that I wasn't holding that. And so it's like this inner outer game where for me, I'm like, looking at, like, what's true about what. What that is saying. So one principle that I've been involved with and I used for years is what we call the 1% rule. And the 1% rule of that is that in any perception, there's at least 1 1% truth, even if it's 99 projection. And so that's true. That's not true. You know, getting into these kind of stupid battles is kind of like, okay, well, how are you gaming Hunger Games? Insecure. Yeah. Well, there is this. And I. I even thought about when you were talking about before the sequence where you were saying, like, oh, you'll be very accepting when other people. I feel like you that there's a kind of, I believe, a hidden arrogance in it, you know, like, I am in a different way out there. I. For me to feel bad about it, it really shows how noble, you know, I am better at dying than others. So it's like a little shadowy thing to go, like, being down on myself. But actually there's this hidden aggrandizement, you know, in that, you know, and so it takes some willingness to go like, wow, how granular and willing am I? Just looking at all of these different dynamics because we're all race, I mean human beings, you know, like so called civilized chimps. And if you look at chimp behavior, man, it's, it's not that sweet, you know, in a lot of ways. So we really get to deal with, you know, Buddha's, the three deadly poisonous, greed, delusion and hatred. And so we all have these parts of ourselves and, and so in terms of know, recognizing, yeah, me shitty toward women, toward children in ways and just kind of like, how can I be better and how can I be part of the, you know, part of the solution out here? So I think there's, you know, your own reckoning, you know, of your, there has been privilege. I do believe there is still male privilege in certain ways, but there's also male underprivilege, you know, and I think a lot of groups don't see that. And when you're not allowed to have certain emotions and, and you'd be shamed for that often by males. You know, it's not like, it's not just females shaming males. There's a lot of these kinds of male culture, you know, there. Well, it's a survival thing, you know, to toughen up boy named Sue, Johnny Cash. Right. You know, it toughen up. And so that's what kind of leads towards some of this stuff. And you can see in the culture so much negativity to guys and guys can't do anything right. And it's part of what drives a lot of these younger guys to the extreme right. Militias and things, because they're being shamed and blamed for everything. Guys suck. And you know, if a man is alone in the forest, is he wrong? Yeah. You know, who would, you know, would you rather run into a bear or a man in the forest? I mean, there's just so many things out there. Guys shown us bumbling idiots and you know, women rule. I, I, I, for me, I feel like I've been in this middle zone. Like, you know, it's up everywhere, you know, it's not, it's not like women's shit doesn't stink. And I'm not saying that for all women. I'm saying that, you know, they're incredibly beautiful men, incredibly beautiful women, spiritually, emotionally. And there are people who are very different from that. I don't, I like, and I'm not into identity groups either. Like this group is better than that group. It's like I like to look at individuals like we're all different and to just be open to whom it was, you know. And how do we embrace who's ever with us and to be as connected as possible. And I'm always going to, how can I connect? I love that.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I love that I've been saying lately and experiencing, you know, when we try to rank pain, we all lose. Like it's just a losing battle. So as we wind down here, I would love, I'll put all this in the show notes but talk to us about Strength with Heart in this amazing offering that's coming pretty soon here, I

Daniel Ellenberg: think very soon, very soon. Three weeks from today. I don't know when you're showing this podcast, but it starts October 3rd. So we have a nine month course which is long enough for a pregnancy. So I figure that you will be reborn by the end. And actually Keith and I have written a book along with another friend, colleague Fred Rabinowitz called Strength with Heart. And this course is based on the nine guidebooks of Strength with Heart. So we've been working on this. I started working this years ago and Keith came in more recently. But basically we're really looking at human factors of being aware as one of the guy courage, intention, you know, leadership. It goes on without going to all the guidance. Each month is a different practice and we have guest speakers coming. We actually have. The CEO of the American Psychological association is one of our speakers. We have the major found of acceptance and commitment therapy which is extremely widely used in the lands. The great speakers are coming, you know, midway through the month. And it's, it's really an opportunity to integrate. One of the things that I've seen is that so many people out there listen different podcasts, getting different workshops, doing different therapies, doing all kinds of different things. And they're collecting many experiences, which is great and why we. But they're not necessarily integrated. Unless something gets integrated into your system, it actually doesn't become part of you. And so even as you're attempting to expand your mindset, extend your mind, expand your, your skill set, yes you can. You know, you know, there's some part of you that keeps going back to the mean progression to me because, you know, we're wired to feel threatened by change. People want to feel better in the general, but they don't actually want to change because changing is being different. Being different means not a bad who you were and there's an attachment to being who you are because at a minimum you're still alive. And so there's something about the news. Better the devil you know. You know, the saying is better the devil you know than w don't I like a different saying, which is better the devil you knew than the angel you don't. Oh yeah. Because there are different parts of ourselves that they. They're cool and we just don't know who they are. And so the course is really a way of integrating different aspects of ourselves and expanding our mindset and skill set in community. So there's going to be a lot of guys and the fingers of guys who are going to be taking this, it's all online, but there's going to be individual groups that meet, you know, in between, like four, five different guys get to know each other well. Interruption. Well, it's going to be about being human. I mean, it's not being a guy and one here I gotta think about even like one of the theories in men's work. It's like positive masculinity. When I look at it, it's like it's human. Like, I know masculinity means I've been involved with it, masculinity. Other than that, I think it's stupid. I think we shouldn't even be using masculinity feminine. Because if I start looking through the lens, like, am I being masculine enough? You know, that's a bad question. You know, some guys will present as more traditionally masculine, you know, football players and stuff, you know, or thinner violin type. You can be a cool dude. It. It's no one way of being. And that's why like for my APA division, you know, it's called Men and masculinity, not masculinity because it's like open field. I'm sure you, Jason, in your groups, these are different. You know, when they. When they come out of hiding, they look really different. And what we want to do is, is really be spacious enough to be a appreciative of the creative expressions of every person. I'm not just talking about men, but I do. They're coming out and hiding and just showing up as yourself. And so the strength of our course is really geared toward guys who want to evolve. I mean it really. I love your evolutionary man. I shouldn't use it all like usable because we need to this point on this planet kind of evolve or die. I'm really. Yeah. We're coming to that place where we have to shift our consciousness or we're just gonna blow each other.

Jason Lange: I am so with you and so happy to know you're out there bringing your deepest gifts and everything you've learned from men and all the work you've done into the world and I'm going to drop all the links and everything to Strength with Heart guys in the show notes to make it really easy to check it out along with Daniel's presence online. Thank you so much for being here and spending time with me and transmitting your, your deep wisdom to my listeners. I'm very excited to just stay, stay in touch moving forward and you know you got an ally here. Anything I can do to help please, please feel free to call me up.

Daniel Ellenberg: I appreciate you Jason, your openness, your goodness of heart which I saw immediately you know when we met and your, your willingness to be real is part of I'm sure what makes you a great facilitator obviously on your path and you know we're all works in progress and may you work your system to keep evolving and may you support others in that process. Love it.

Jason Lange: Well thank you so much and until next time everybody.