Great Roommates, No Sex (with Steph Flood)

Jason Lange: Alright, and welcome back. If you're married and you want more touch or more sex than you've been getting, or you just stopped asking, this one is for you. Today my guest is Steph Flood, a licensed marriage and family therapist who calls herself your wife's best friend because she tells husbands what their wives feel and rarely say out loud. She's been married to her high school sweetheart for over 30 years.

Jason Lange: And today she brings your wife's side and I'll bring yours. Welcome Steph.

Steph Flood: Thanks so much for having me.

Jason Lange: Yeah, really excited to have you today. This is a topic that is right up my alley with so many of the men I work with and is often one of the things that actually gets a man to reach out and ask for help in my experience of something's going wrong in his relationship. And so my first question for you is what's a question a husband asked you this year that maybe he wouldn't have asked anyone else?

Steph Flood: that's such a great question. And I I really do actually there's a theme in it. And it's typically around like, I'm doing everything right. Like I'm doing the dishes and I'm helping the kids and I'm an active participant in this marriage, like like I'm supposed to be. And she still doesn't seem to want the romantic connective part.

Steph Flood: so if I do all the right things, then why why are we not connecting?

Jason Lange: Yeah, okay, totally. And the pain and often frustration that I think comes with that for so many men. And this maybe gets right into your emotional to physical cycle. Can you tell us a little bit about that and what you've mapped out and maybe how it relates to that?

Steph Flood: Yeah, so I think, I describe it to my clients as sort of a hamster wheel of love. So very t and I'm gonna kind of use more typical kind of language. that you know, most men feel loved through physical touch. That is their love language, that is where they feel appreciated, it is where they feel valued, it is the it is their driving force.

Steph Flood: and we'll put them maybe at the top of the wheel. The ladies are on the bottom of the wheel with I need you to know my inner world and connect in my inner world, meaning like, you know, I had that conversation with my mom a week ago. Did you follow up?

Steph Flood: And ask me how things are going now. you know, I have this person at work who drives me crazy. Is my husband kind of checking in? So all that kind of emotional stuff. That's usually where the ladies live in their love language. To get a couple to kind of get on the hamster wheel, they each have to be doing the thing for the other one.

Steph Flood: get things kind of rolling and going. And so that it's it is challenging because most women are like, well, he didn't talk to me all week. So why would I want to make out with him? Or and he's like, well, she like clearly doesn't care about me because she hasn't touched me all week.

Jason Lange: Yeah, this is so common and definitely

Steph Flood: Mm-hmm.

Jason Lange: a journey I've been on in my my own relationship and something I work with men and often tell, I call it the the cosmic joke in a sense of often partners both want the same thing, deep

Steph Flood: Mm-hmm.

Jason Lange: connection and bonding, physical, emotional, and and whatnot, but coming at it from the different directions, right? For us, men obviously often bodily connection allows us.

Jason Lange: To feel our emotions in our heart and closeness. And it's often the opposite, right? For the feminine, for women. Okay, once my heart is open, once I'm feeling connected emotionally, then my body might start to open and feel something. Not every time, but might. And that I think that's one of the great shifts. certainly I work with men on that.

Jason Lange: not allowing all that emotional labor to fall on our wives or feminine partners these days of, hey, we can actually lead in terms of creating the conversations and connections right.

Steph Flood: Yeah, and and one of the things that I really encourage men to remember is you were actually doing all this stuff when you were dating your partner. When you were courting your partner, you were actually paying attention to her emotionally in a deep way. you were going out on dates, and I'm not saying date nights are the answer, but it was the conversation you were probably having with her.

Steph Flood: The attention that you were bringing emotionally that actually got her hooked. And then usually the the physical attraction and all of that other good icing on the cake stuff was going on, and so men were like, Yes, this is fantastic, but they totally forget that they were doing all of that, like probably when they were dating.

Jason Lange: That's so true.

Jason Lange: And d definitely, you know, again, something I experienced in in my relationship. And that, yeah, right. The the beauty of early in a relationship is when you spend time together, the purpose of spending time together is to put your attention on each other. Right. So we're going out on dates, it's all very intentional. Then we start to blend our lives, maybe get committed, maybe get married, maybe have kids. A lot of the time we spend with each other.

Jason Lange: is not with our attention on each other. It's dealing with all of the stuff we have to juggle in life. And it turns out when we're not putting attention on our partner, right, she often feels it. And that, you know, I work a lot with guys on teaching them how to bring presence to their partner. What does it actually mean to be present for your feminine partner?

Jason Lange: And that is something we actually have to invest in. And as I kind of joke, it's not the best term, but it's something I definitely experience in my marriage. If like there's there's a bit of feeding the meter. Like if I haven't been bringing my presence in connection to my wife throughout the week, including emotional connection, talking, light touch, and then I want to initiate sex later in the week, it's like that's a huge leap for her. But if I've been

Jason Lange: connecting with her, we've been emotionally intimate, there's been touch involved. It's much less of a leap. But I think us guys assume our how our nervous system works is often how a woman's nervous system work. And what I hear you saying is it's actually pretty different.

Steph Flood: But yeah, it is you're right, it is a cosmic joke.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Steph Flood: But there, I mean, I can get all like geeked out and nerded out on like why we might have all evolved like this, it you know, and how it keeps the the herd safe. it keeps the tiny humans alive by each of us having these different kinds of roles and expectations and how things kind of

Steph Flood: how things go along, especially when it comes to sex. and I you know, I think a lot of men, I I really and truly believe that most husbands and most men

Steph Flood: Are good guys, really and truly. Yes, you hear about all the craptastic ones, but most men are actually trying really hard. And sometimes they just are like kind of a deer in the headlights and have no idea like what they were doing to get their wives in the first place. I've heard many men be like, I don't know, she just said yes, and that's what's here we all are, and like now we got some kids. and they don't actually know what they were doing. So just reminding them of like, yeah.

Steph Flood: all of these qualities you've got, you've got it in your in your bag. And once you start implementing them, she is gonna be like, hello, sir. should we have another baby?

Jason Lange: Yeah. And yeah, I'm

Jason Lange: I'm curious that brings up to me what what's something you often have to give a man feedback on that's maybe challenging for him that might be the same feedback his partner has tried to give him, but he can hear from you that maybe he's never actually been able to hear from her.

Steph Flood: I think I we have this conversation quite a bit in my own marriage because my husband is you know he's a very typical man. And so sometimes this, even though I do this for a living and he has been around for a very long time, like he sometimes forgets that he's like, yes, I'm supposed to do this thing. one of the one of the biggest things that I think

Steph Flood: Women don't necessarily know how to communicate to their male partner, is the way in which you speak to me actually matters quite a bit. So most men get hung up on like the tone police. she's trying to tell me like how to talk. What she's trying to do is help you add in some more.

Steph Flood: softness probably to what whatever it is you're saying. And that softness translates to love to most women. So like if if you're trying to get your wife to do XYZ, instead of saying like, why don't we have sex? She's gonna be like, Cause I don't like you. if he changes it and says, I miss being intimate with you.

Steph Flood: That is a very different sentence asking for the exact same thing. So I try to help guys change the language a bit so that it can be received better by their female partner.

Jason Lange: I love that. That's right in line with, you know, often what I have to help men with in many ways, because of how we're trained and taught in our culture as as men, is what it means to be emotionally vulnerable, right?

Steph Flood: Mm-hmm.

Jason Lange: To actually reveal what I'm feeling inside, which is very different from accusing my partner of you don't love me, you never want to have sex with me. Right. You hear that and it's like defenses are up, now I gotta like,

Steph Flood: Yeah.

Jason Lange: now we're in a fight. But hey, I really miss you and I I miss.

Jason Lange: our physical connection and I I feel alone in our relationship. Totally different. Totally different, right? And from what I hear from you is that that's a thing men just need to hear and be reminded of that yeah, it's it's not just what you're saying, but it's how you're saying it and how conducive is that to connection itself.

Jason Lange: And so here here's a question I have for you, because one of the most painful things a lot of the men I work with actually come to me with is maybe a little different than what the preconceived notion of of men just wanting sex is. And like you said, guys are actually tend to be pretty good. Yeah, there's some there's some bad seeds out there for sure, but something that often shocks a lot of people about the men I work with is it's not just sex they want.

Jason Lange: There is actually a level of connection and intimacy associated with that. And one of the most painful experiences many men I've worked with have is when they have the experience of their wife just giving them sex. So, okay, here's my body. Just can you can you finish? Can you get it over? What in your mind is kind of going on on the on the wife or the woman side there?

Steph Flood: Hmm. I think what you're describing is wanting to be wanted. And that is I think all humans want to be wanted, but men specifically when it comes to intimacy and sex wanting to be wanted by their partner. That is a very different feeling. She is actively engaged in the intimate act, whatever it is, that feels a thousand times better. You're right. Like than her just laying back and be like, Yeah, get it over with.

Steph Flood: That sucks. Most men actually don't really want that. they're like, this feels awkward and weird and also a bit violating. and so that that helping women understand that just because you've decided like, okay, fine.

Steph Flood: We're gonna check that box, does not make it a good experience for either one of you. It actually builds a lot of resentment on both sides. so I think what for if your wife is doing that, having the conversation of

Steph Flood: That is being really honest, like that is not what I'm particularly looking for. I appreciate you trying to make some kind of effort in this department. If you've probably complained about it enough, she's probably like fine. but what I'm looking for is the connection, that physical connection for both of us to enjoy. And most men will tell you that they are most turned on when their female partner is turned on. That is.

Steph Flood: all of the things and it's fantastic and everybody's very happy. So having a conversation around like, well, what would what would actually work for you? Like, you know, as as the female partner and a man asking her, like, you know, I don't really just want to have sex with you and have it be over with. I really want this to feel good for you and feel good for me. And

Steph Flood: make it something that we routinely hopefully come back to because we're both enjoying the experience.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I love that. The really highlighting the desire for it to be pleasurable and enjoyable for both partners. And that one unidirectional isn't ac li I totally matches the experience of men I work with. It's not actually what they like and want. They want to feel their partner enjoying it. Often they that's the most enjoyment they have is feeling their own partner enjoy it even more than their own pleasure and intimacy. So that conversation I think is an absolute

Jason Lange: Game changer for men that can initiate that.

Jason Lange: And so what about there's a guy I often work with as well, the so-called nice guy, right? I'm a soti certified no more Mr. Nice Guy coach. And this is a guy who desires sex, but often carries a little bit of shame around it. And so even early in my marriage, you know, there were times I'd be lying there in bed, my partner was there.

Jason Lange: And I would be frozen in terms of how to initiate and bring my desire forward to her. Curious, just in your own experiences with the men you've worked with and whatnot, what do you think is often going on in the wife's or partner's mind in those moments when they can just feel their husband next to them, maybe frozen a little bit around initiating? And then how in your work do you work with men around their relationship to their desire?

Steph Flood: So passive types of men sometimes can be their own worst enemy. because yes, they're trying to be quote unquote nice, which doesn't actually work for sexual attraction typically. respectful, good, nice. So most times women, I think.

Steph Flood: Speaking from hormones, women will not always be thinking about sex. I mean, it men, and I'm gonna generalize a lot, right? Men are typically thinking about sex most of the time. So he's laying there and he's thinking, here we are, I'd like to do the things, and she is laying there, probably running through the kids' schedule and how fast she can get to sleep and how much sleep she's gonna get, and then when she has to wake up and do all the things.

Steph Flood: So totally not even thinking about the same things, which is why it's hard than if you are laying in bed and you do decide like, okay, I'm gonna give this a shot, and she's like, what are you doing? Why are which then creates more of that shame, right? Because now she's like caught off guard and she's told you like and you were working this up for the last 15 to 20 minutes, hoping for something good to happen.

Steph Flood: I think that's the typical kind of thing. I think women don't really understand. A lot of women don't necessarily understand like what has been going on in his head for 15 minutes of like trying to build up the courage to get there. And so the way that you start to break up that cycle a little bit is n having way more physical touch on a very regular basis all day long.

Steph Flood: 10 touches a day, actually. Which, if you've ever given this a shot, it is fascinating. You start counting. Also, 10 second kiss does really, really, really well. You can thank the Gottmans for that one. But it is, it's a lot when you start thinking about it. Now, if you've gotten, if you as a man, if you are really

Steph Flood: non-sexual touch to your female partner 10 times a day. First of all, it's gonna fill your cup up too. There's that happening. But it also breaks up that like it's been seven days, it's been two weeks, and I haven't touched her and now I'm asking for sex. Like it's too big of a it's too big of a leap. So if we break it up a little bit more, that actually helps quite a bit.

Jason Lange: Yeah, so that consistent I I kinda joke with my guys touch and connection in and presence in a sense, it's like sunshine and water for a plant. 'Cause sometimes guys are like, well, I told her I loved her last week. Well, it actually doesn't matter. The the plant still needs sunshine and water today. Every day it needs sunshine and water, right?

Jason Lange: And that consistency is something I've had to work really hard for in in my marriage because my family, my family of origin, touch, none of that was normal, right? So I had to learn to okay, come toward my partner, come toward my partner. Not just when I want sex, right? Like to to actually initiate other kinds of connection. And so what about, you know, it it sounds like you work with a huge range of men, but

Jason Lange: The okay, here's a man. He's in he's in maybe a long-term relationship, and they get along great. They're like best friends, they manage the house really well, but there is no sexual charge anymore. What what's often going on in in you know in the wife's head? And what is the man, you know, what responsibility or what does he need to start to bring to the relationship to maybe shift that dynamic?

Steph Flood: the first thing to it and we call it the roommate. You're you've got a roommate is what you've got. You've got a really good roommate, usually. but you're right, there's no sexual energy there. Sexual energy again comes from consistent physical touch. Like it is reminding yourself that you this is yes, this is your bestie. and that's fantastic, but this is also a person that you really

Steph Flood: want to physically be close with on a pretty regular basis. there are some tricks to this to this that I do like suggest to people. and one of them is for women smell is a really big deal. So getting

Steph Flood: And I I will tell men, I don't care what you like, you have to pick what she likes. So get yourself some soap that she likes. Have her pick out the soap. Have her pick out the cologne. Have her, and then you need to start physically getting near her so she can start smelling you again. That will get her hormones kind of going. I think the other thing too that tends to happen if you've been married for a decent amount of time and you are in your late 40s.

Steph Flood: is the joy of perimenopause and understanding and the crazy thing, and I tell couples this all the time, right? Who you were in your 20s, who I was as a female in my 20s.

Steph Flood: Very different than who I was a female in my 30s having four babies. very different than a female in her 40s. So also recognizing and understanding and men too, you guys get a little easier, right? You know, your testosterone hits a nice little peak there at about 14, 15 and it just hangs out.

Steph Flood: So you hit about 65. Unless you're really stressed out, then you got some problems. But for the most part, you're like, we live like this. And so if you guys can also start paying attention to like, hey, is this a is this actually a medical thing going on? Like she not feeling like she wants have sex because it's medical stuff going on, perimenopause, fluctuating hormones, all the things. my husband laughs all the time. He's like, perimenopause did not exist until three years ago.

Steph Flood: And then all of you women started talking about it. And I was like, well, that's because all our moms like white knuckled it apparently. And those of us that are older millennials, Gen X, like, it turns out this is terrible. And this is all the things that are going on. So we don't want to talk about that. We want to talk about it, like if there's any sort of like medical stuff going on, because it's a it plays a big, big role in why couples might just end up in that roommate place. The other thing too is constant busyness, right? Like, so if we are

Steph Flood: Managing all of the things, the kids, the job, the house, and he's managing the kids, the job, the house, and you keep going like this to where you are worlds apart, like that is how you get into a roommate situation because you are so busy dealing with all of this other stuff that you forget to take care of the relationship.

Steph Flood: I actually end every single session that I have with my one-to-one clients with take good care of each other. And that's a clue to them, assigned to them, like, that means that we come first. Actually, not the kids, not the work, not the house. The two of us come first. How do we connect every single day, either through physical touch, emotional connection, something? And that will start to get you out of roommate mode.

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah, I love that. And to to dial into that a little bit more, how how in your mind does a man's stress level literally the stress he's holding in his body, whether it's physical tension, emotional tension, anxiety, fear, how does that tend to impact his romantic relationship? What do you see?

Steph Flood: So

Steph Flood: laugh because I'm gonna throw my husband out of the bus because he lives he lives in a very high stress environment. He starts startups for a living. So that is a thousand miles an hour for a very brief period of time and then we kind of move on to the other thing. So stress for men, most men will turn inward.

Steph Flood: Because they're trying to one, not take it out on their family, because that doesn't usually go very well.

Steph Flood: So sometimes that looks like I'm going to the gym a lot more, or I'm on my phone a lot more, or unfortunately, I'm just gonna use porn because that's the simplest, fastest route to me taking care of something, and I just can't like I don't want to do anything else. So stress that usually comes out in most men isn't as pulling inward. and so which then

Steph Flood: leads to I'm not really connected to my wife she doesn't really want to have sex with me because I'm so pulled in but it has to do with like how much stress I'm under. What most men actually forget, don't understand, is as your female partner, I would rather hear all about it. I would rather hear about how your boss is a jerk

Steph Flood: Or that, you've got this massive problem, s that it's at work where, you've got ten hours of work and trying to get a thousand things done. I would rather hear about it because if I'm hearing about it, you're actually releasing some of that stress in a healthy way and we're connecting.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I love that. one of the things I work the most with men on is yeah, that tendency to bury it all inside and, you know, be tough, be the tough man that can just pick himself up by the bootstraps, keep going, don't show vulnerability, don't ask for help. And that has huge consequences, right, on our physical health, our emotional health. And then yeah, it shows up in our family in relationship as well.

Jason Lange: related to that, what do you see? Because a big part of the work I do in the the mission I'm on is actually getting men connected to other men as well. One of the things I often see men let go of as they enter into relationship, particularly as they have kids, suddenly all of the peer relationships they had that helped, take care of them in some sense start to fall to the wayside. do you see men showing up?

Jason Lange: To you, f feeling lonely in life in terms of the types of connections they have even outside of their intimate relationship?

Steph Flood: Yeah, that that is a it's it's it's a big problem. We have lost community for men. especially not being like not going into the office anymore. it is like my husband is mostly remote. I think he's there like in the office like once a month or so. And so they've lost like those were his people before. The you know, the guys at work.

Steph Flood: you know, those were kind of his people. And then yes, as we ended up having a bajillion children, like the friendships that we have are now completely based around the kids. And those night not he loves all these people very much, but they might not necessarily be like who he would have sought out like as a f as a friend. Like, no, we're just connected because of kids. Interestingly enough, my husband goes to a restaurant most days.

Steph Flood: And he has collected a group of men. And like there's I think there's like 10 of them now. And it is fascinating that they've all just sort of morphed, they all come to this restaurant for lunch.

Steph Flood: almost every day and they just chat and throw shade at each other. I think is a really weird thing that men do, but that's what apparently they do the for bonding. and it is a f it is it's been fascinating because there's you can just see you can see the need in these guys. They they just want other men to just kinda hang out with and joke around with and

Steph Flood: Talk shit. And then they all go home. And it has made a big difference in my husband's life because these are people, again, that he truly enjoys. And I think the more men can really cultivate that. I also think too, and this isn't just on a female thing, don't give your husband shit if he wants to go hang out with his friends on occasion.

Steph Flood: I think that's, you know, yes, everybody is busy, everybody is working hard, everybody's hopefully helping with the kids and doing all the things, but each partner needs a group, you know, at least a couple people to just hang out, have a beer, go play golf, go have lunch, go to a men's group, like if, you know, whatever it is, like that is vitally, vitally important to your marriage.

Jason Lange: Yeah, that I just want to double click that.

Steph Flood: Yeah, exactly.

Jason Lange: it's something that I think is so important and it's so counterintuitive. I tell men this. If you want to improve your intimate relationship, improve your relationship with other men. A, they become another space you can bring your stress, you're overwhelmed to. B, they can sometimes give you feedback that you need to hear. So your wife or partner isn't the only one.

Jason Lange: giving you that feedback. And oftentimes those kind of outings and interactions, like you said, part of what it allows for is space between partners that I get to go off and have an experience and you're having an experience. And it's often in a little bit of distance, some of that charge starts to come back, right? If we're just spending all day long with each other, I, you know, my wife, wife and I both work from home. She's on the top floor. I'm on the right, it's we spend a lot of time together.

Jason Lange: I go away to men's group and I come back and there's always a little bit more energy. Hey, what happened tonight? What did you do? What did you do? And for, I can tell you, speaking for my wife, and it sounds like maybe this is true for you. part of why my wife has become an advocate for me to go out and spend time with my men in men's groups on retreats or sometimes just socializing is because of who I am when I come home. I'm more present, I'm more relaxed, I'm more grounded.

Jason Lange: And she turns out likes that.

Steph Flood: Yes, very much so. Yes. even though like I I think some of the things they talk about, I'm like, that's horrifying. But sure, whatever. Go like I don't need all the details, I don't think.

Steph Flood: But yeah, it it's in, always a little bit of gossip too, because then I hear how so-and-so is doing. god, that doesn't sound good. but yeah, I think it's it's vitally important for men to have other men that they connect with. I think too, at a lot of times men in low intimacy marriages, they think they're alone.

Steph Flood: They think they're alone in this. They th they almost always like other men are not having this issue. yes, yes, a lot, a lot of couples are having this issue. You are not alone. So sometimes just being with another group of guys and you start hearing like, yeah, last time was on my birthday. Like because it comes out, it does. People start talking about it. So it kind of hearing like, hey, like this is a this is a more normal problem than than maybe you thought before.

Jason Lange: Yeah. In another area I was curious to get your your take on, kind of as the the the wife whisperer, so to speak.

Steph Flood: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Performance anxiety for men, whether it's premature ejaculation, delayed ejaculation, erectile dysfunction, so many men I work with have a hu feel a huge amount of pressure around.

Jason Lange: their erections and their ability to last in bed and often have quite a bit of unspoken shame around that. And I'm curious kind of from your side, what what's often the experience of a of a wife or a partner that a man doesn't realize and maybe would be useful for him to know?

Steph Flood: A couple things. Most of the time, we're very self-centered little people. we think it's our fault. Most most women will assume it's he's not attracted to me. He's god, like I'm, you know, I'm fat, I'm ugly, I'm whatever. And ninety-nine point nine percent of the time that's actually not the case. Most of the time it's actually stress or just

Steph Flood: you just have an off day. Unfortunately, for a lot of men, if they have that experience once, it freaks them out enough that they think they're gonna have it again. And guess what happens? Then we have it again. And then we have now a compounding problem because it just kind of goes on and on. So unless it again, it's a medical thing going on, most of the time, it's all up here in your head. So for the ladies' perspective, most of my ladies,

Steph Flood: generally burst into tears in the middle of what has gone or they just are like, again, they're like kind of freak out, like, God, he's not attracted to me anymore. And then most of the time the guys just get real quiet. They don't say anything. So then now we both have now we're both lying there and being like, okay, well clearly it's me, right? I think what a lot of women really need to understand is

Steph Flood: We have all been told that the male equipment works perfectly all the time. And that is a lie of lies. Like, it just doesn't. It does not work perfectly all the time. It probably shouldn't work perfectly all the time. It is totally okay. Totally okay. There are a thousand other things that you guys can do that don't require penis to vagina sex, unless you are actively trying to have a baby.

Steph Flood: That you really don't actually need that. So there still can be touching, there can be, you know, any other format of whatever might still feel nice that doesn't actually require an erect penis. So, and once you start doing that and understanding, like, okay, if this isn't working right now, no problem. We could switch to this and we could switch to this, or we could just say, you know what, tonight's not the night.

Steph Flood: Didn't want come out and play, it's totally fine. We're gonna go sleep. We can try this again in a couple days. No problem. I think most most if you could have that open and honest level of conversation, the erectile dysfunction usually goes away pretty quickly. and we're back to the races and everybody is fine.

Jason Lange: that's such a nice distillation distillation of that in that so many things, right? I think a lot of guys don't realize our erections are often related to safety. And that, hey, we need to feel safe, emotionally safe, physically safe as well and relaxed, a huge one for us guys, right? You

Steph Flood: Mm-hmm.

Jason Lange: can't get an erection if your blood vessels can't relax. But the the thing I really want to highlight, guys, I really want you to hear this is

Jason Lange: Often what kills the moment is not the lack of erection. It's our collapse around it. Right? If we get ashamed or frozen or upset or we go cold or we storm out of the room, whatever it is, that's actually what stops the intimacy. Like you said, there's so many ways to keep the connection flowing, even if our erection isn't there anymore. And doing that inner work, I think, is so key for men.

Jason Lange: To be able to, hey, ha take that breath and stay connected to a partner instead of disappearing like so many men I know do because they're overwhelmed or they're ashamed or whatever that might be. And if the connection's still there, you can still have an incredible evening that can go in all kinds of directions. And then sometimes even interaction might come back later, sometimes it might not, but there's a lot of possibility there and that pressure I think men put on themselves, particularly then.

Jason Lange: If they're in a relationship where sex isn't happening often, and then it's like, my God, this might be the only time, and da da da, it just can build on itself so fast.

Steph Flood: Yeah, that that one is actually a really big deal because if you're not having sex on a regular basis, then you're like, yes, tonight's the night. And then your body is like, No, it is not, sir. That's not gonna happen. It it sucks. It really does. But that doesn't mean that it's not going to happen in the future. I really and this is

Steph Flood: couples end up in couples counseling to talk about this stuff. But my hope, my goal is that you could actually be able to talk about this in your relationship, like before it even ever happens. so like you know, and I I truly people tell me all the time, they make fun of me. They're like, Stephanie, nobody is having these conversations. Nobody is like who

Steph Flood: did your parents sit you down and be like, hey, you know what happens when people can't have sex? You're gonna do this. Absolutely not. Did not happen in my house. That would actually freak me out. But like if you as a couple are can are able to have these types of conversations before it ever happens, like you're off you're off to the races. You are in really, really good shape. because then you know.

Steph Flood: You don't have to worry if it doesn't maybe work once in a while.

Jason Lange: one other maybe kind of I don't know if it's less typical, but maybe less talked about. What have you ever worked with guys or how do you work with guys in this case if it's the man that's the partner with lower desire in a relationship? And his partner is available, wanting to feel him coming towards her, but he's the one who who doesn't have that desire. What have you

Jason Lange: taught or coached or how do you work with men around that?

Steph Flood: Yeah, that's actually more common than I think anybody really ever talks about because that's it can be pretty shaming for men who and again, I'm gonna go with the good good guys, not guys who are maybe finding activities elsewhere outside of their marriage. It's typically another reason why he might not be interested in his partner. we're wi we're truly wired actually for one partner. We're actually not wired for multiple partners.

Steph Flood: keeps our it keeps our species safe to to stick with one. but if you you know if you're a guy and you are noticing like hey I am not feeling it we wanna really check in about what might be going on. Again, I always start with medical. Let's just let's just check that box. Like for a lot of men, if you are in a very high stressed environment job

Steph Flood: life situation, it actually is going to decrease your testosterone. And I always recommend to guys is maybe take one step further than just going to your general practitioner because sometimes you're going to get a lab result that says, your testosterone's fine when it is literally at the bottom of the bottom of the hole.

Steph Flood: And if it's at the bottom of the hole, that's gonna make it real difficult for you to feel like to feel enamored. That was the best word. so if you go

Jason Lange: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steph Flood: see an endocrinologist, they're gonna be a little bit more specialized. they are gonna be the ones that are gonna be like, yeah, that's low. So let's boost it up a little bit and get you kind of going. So first things first, we're gonna look at the medical stuff. If the medical stuff is fine, your testosterone is fine, then we wanna start looking at like, hmm, okay.

Steph Flood: Are there things she is doing, saying, behaving that is making you kind of get the ick? Like, I don't really want to do this. Like there's something about whatever our relationship dynamic is going on that does not feel safe to me to have sex with her, does not feel like I want to be connected to her. And this is gonna be a bit of a hot take.

Steph Flood: It's okay if you are not always attracted to her.

Steph Flood: Okay, she is aging. She has had some babies probably. Things change. And it's okay if you're like,

Steph Flood: That wasn't what it used to be, or that doesn't feel the way it used to be, or that certainly doesn't look the way it used to be. Sometimes just acknowledging that, I might not be physically as attracted to her as I once was is enough to be like, okay, I can kind of get through that. But

Jason Lange: Mm-hmm.

Steph Flood: you know, it and that sucks and it's hard. It does. But it does happen.

Steph Flood: It happens to all of us, your wife is not gonna always be super attracted to you physically, and that is okay. For most long-term couples, what we what we're really looking for is emotional attraction. How does this person make me feel? Does she make me feel like I walk on water? Like, let's start paying more attention to that, and that actually can start to bring arousal back. Now.

Steph Flood: Some people, this is also what I tell lots of couples. There is no right amount of sex in your relationship. There are some people who are everyday people, bless them. And that is great, and that is what feels right for them, and it works, and yay! Okay. And there are some people who are like, you know what? We connect about once a month, and it's freaking awesome.

Steph Flood: And that's fantastic and that's totally okay. There is no right amount. Now I'm sure a lot of your men right now are like, Stephanie is a liar. I I am one a day kind of person. My wife is like every four months kind of person. we just kind of work on like how to how to bridge that gap.

Jason Lange: Totally. And yeah, this is often something I explore with guys too is that you know, there's seasons to any relationship. Sometimes there's higher desire seasons and then there's kind of lower desire seasons. And it's okay. Like you said, and it's okay. Sometimes we're not as attracted to our partner as other times. And I love what you said about learning to shift more towards emotional attraction, right? That part that in some ways can just keep increasing.

Jason Lange: as we age and become more close and comfortable and intimate with a partner versus just the physical attraction and that puts some pressure in a good way on us guys because that's often an area we're pretty underdeveloped in of what does it mean to not only create emotional connection with my partner, but know how to receive emotional connection, right? A lot of guys I work with

Jason Lange: Their partners want to love them and they don't even know how to let it in. They're just not used to it, right? They're so armored up from a lifetime of, being a man, so to speak. But that there's real training we can do there to learn to kind of give that emotional connection more room and air so that part of us can just grow old with each other in a sense and still have something juicy and and fun. I I love, love, love that reframe.

Jason Lange: Okay. And is there anything else that just comes to mind in terms of, you know, guys out there listening right now? What something you might want them to know that, you know, comes from their wives or or female spouses that they they might just be missing that we haven't covered so far.

Steph Flood: I think I just, really want to re reiterate, we love you guys. We really do. we really we're in it with you. It isn't just about your paycheck or, you know, the kids or whatever. We connected with you before you had probably all of that, especially if you've been in a long-term marriage. We truly love you. And

Steph Flood: Yes, we don't always understand that the physical piece is a huge component for you. it's okay to talk to us about that. It is totally okay. It, you know, if if you can change the language up a little bit and talk about intimacy, talk about affection, talk about closeness using those words, you're gonna get.

Steph Flood: pretty dang far with us. And we that's those that's our language right there. So if you can kind of approach it from that angle, you are going to more likely be successful in your in your later outcomes of of sex. But we truly love you and we truly think you guys are good guys. We know you are. We know you're good husbands. We know you're good fathers. Like, you know, it it we are not that is not lost on us.

Jason Lange: to double click that once again, guys, one of the biggest shifts I think you can easily make these days is learning to lead and tend the emotional connection in your relationship. If you even just do a little bit of that, you're so far past where most men in our default culture are. And spouses will respond to it, right? It's it's a really special thing. And guess what?

Jason Lange: There will be reciprocity to that. You will get to feel affection and touch and care in return the more you're able to bring that to her. So really appreciate the work you're up to and what you're doing to help us men feel even more connected and have thriving relationships and partnerships. And if people want to keep up with you, Steph, what's the best way for them to stay in touch or or or learn more about you? I'll drop this all in the show notes, but would love to have you share it here.

Steph Flood: So you can find me on Instagram at Steph Flood Marriage Coach. give you lots of good tips, advice, all kinds of things. and you can check out my website too. It's s a floodoflove dot com.

Steph Flood: it's pretty simple there. I've got a newsletter that goes out if you want to sign up for it. I give you all kinds of I give you this language. Every every single email has okay, this is exactly what wording I want you to say to your partner and see what happens.

Jason Lange: love it. Well, thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure chatting with you today.

Steph Flood: Yes, thank you, Jason. It was so nice to virtually meet you.

Jason Lange: Yeah, so great to connect and to all the listeners out there. Thanks much. And until next time.