“Rethinking Modern Manhood: Connection, Men’s Groups, and Healthier Masculinity” With Jason Lange | The Growth & Ownership Podcast

Host (The Growth & Ownership Podcast): Good day everyone. Welcome to the show where we explore powerful conversations that inspire growth, connection and transformation. Today we are diving into a topic that, that is deeply relevant in today's world. Mother masculinity and the evolving role of men in society. Our guest Jason has been over 20 years in immersed in men's work, helping men move beyond outdated paradigms and into other more connected ways of living. Through his own journey of overcoming loneliness and struggles with relationships, Jason discovered the life changing impact of men's group. And now it's his mission to help every man experience that transformation. Jason, welcome to the show once again.

Jason Lange: Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Host (The Growth & Ownership Podcast): Jason, can you take us back to your early. What were you experiencing that led you into miss Work?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I was experiencing in a lot of ways. I grew up very privileged, right? White male, grew up in the Midwest of the United States, lower middle class, had pretty much all my basic security needs met in terms of food and shelter. But as I became a teenager, in my case I'm heterosexual, so I became attract. You know, I started feeling my attraction to women. And that's really where it started for me because what I found was I got really uncomfortable around them physically in my body. I would get anxious, I'd kind of get sweaty, I would freeze up, I would start to really ruminate and overthink in my mind and didn't know how to express anything to them. And then simultaneously I started to build some connections with other male friends in my life. And I just noticed that they related to each other differently than me. They horseplayed, they wrestled, they touched each other in a sense of just having some connection at a physical level. And by the time I got to my mid-20s, I became really clear to me that I was raised in a house of neglect. There was no physical touch, no emotional connection, very little kind of talking about anything other than logistics. And that had me pretty locked up in my body and unable to express or even know what I was feeling inside. Which then led me on a journey to okay, there's gotta be a better way in the world. I feel so uncomfortable. I'm often depressed or anxious or numb. Would numb out with porn and food and video games. And I still had never had a relationship with a woman. So it was in my mid-20s. I got lucky and I kind of stumbled into the power of both men's groups and men's work and somatic or body based therapy. And it was there that things really started to change for me. And now part of why I'm so passionate about getting men into men's groups is. Though not everyone's story is quite like mine. All men are kind of pushing against this cultural force that tells us it's not okay to feel. To be a man means to be invulnerable, to be tough, to have no inner life, and to just push, push, push, no matter what. And that leads to some really disastrous results for men and our health. Right. So social isolation. In 1991, it was about 15% of men reported having. Or, sorry, 3% of men reported having no close friends. And by 2021, it was already up to 15%. And I would say it's probably even higher than that now. And suicide rates are, you know, three and a half to four times higher than women in most developed countries. And so we're in the midst of a crisis. And men who come to me are men who are tired. They're just tired. They're tired of all the tension they carry. They're tired of doing everything alone, and they often feel in pain and stuck and are ready for something else.

Host (The Growth & Ownership Podcast): Okay, Jason, you mentioned loneliness and discomfort in your body. How did those challenges shape your understanding of masculinity?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think, you know, no matter, like I said, your personal, family history were. You know, it's different in different countries around the world, but there's. There's this general idea of what we call the man box, which is the kind of unspoken, sometimes spoken set of beliefs that, hey, as long as you check off these boxes and attributes, you're considered a man, and if you don't, you're not. And all of us men are raised in that context to some extent or another. Right. We're taught from a young age to be tough, don't cry, get back out there, push ahead, sit still. All these different things that in a lot of ways really end up translating to whatever's happening in your body, ignore it and push through it with your mind. So from a young age, us men are taught that it's a good thing for us to be disembodied and disconnected from our bodies. And in the work I do, therefore, are our emotions, and we're actually rewarded for it in a lot of culture. So the idea of a man, right, is a man who's often tough as nails, doesn't need anyone, figures things out, keeps pushing, is willing to grind his body to get to the goal, whatever that might be. And I was raised in that context, and anything other than that, you can think of all the ways men often Describe other guys who they consider less than a man. The slurs, the bullying, the ostracization, sometimes stumble on that word. But all the ways we get excluded. And so for me, yeah, you know, I was taught to be a man means don't have an inner world. And for most of us men, you know, really the only emotion we're allowed to feel is anger and, you know, turn on attraction, lust, anything else, shame, grief, fear, disgust, all of that is considered, you know, less than a man. And you shouldn't deal with that or shouldn't be present to that. So I absorbed all that and I had to spend decades of my life unwinding that to a place where I feel very comfortable now, feeling any emotion that comes my way and really light up supporting other men, doing it, because frankly, it gives us our lives back.

Host (The Growth & Ownership Podcast): Okay, so what do you think is breaking down in the traditional idea of what it means to be a man today?

Jason Lange: Yeah, there's so many different things. I mean, one, like I said, for a long time, to be a man meant to be, to not feel and not have an inner world or not be vulnerable. And frankly, we're, you know, hundreds of years in of seeing the disastrous consequences of what men who are disconnected from their bodies and hearts can do. They can cause a lot of suffering to women, to children, to other men, to boys, to the environment. And, you know, we're just still a couple of months out here while we're recording this from all the news about the online rape academy. And there's just constant examples, right? And more and more men see those examples and say to themselves, I don't want to be that. I do not want to be that kind of objectifying, dangerous, abusive man. And so in a lot of ways, the pendulum has started to swing the other way towards what we call the so called nice guy, which is the guy who just wants to be safe, wants to be nice, who wants to be friendly to everyone, and doesn't want to cause anyone any discomfort or harm. And it's a beautiful desire, but it falls apart because often what happens to nice guys is we, we abandon ourselves. I consider myself one of these guys. We put everyone else's needs first, we put ours last. And we have a hard time setting boundaries, asking for what we want, and not walking around in life feeling resentful, not feeling like pushovers, and being able to create the lives and experiences we want in life. And then there's what I also call kind of the stoic man, which, you know, sometimes is an older generation, but really can be anyone, which is the guy who just kind of shows up in life. But, man, he has his inner world on lockdown. He's nice, he's friendly, but he doesn't really talk about anything beyond things. And he's kind of the stoic, right? He just pushes that all down. And those men end up suffering tremendously long term, particularly as they get into middle and older age. So part of the problem for so many men these days is we don't really have healthy models of what powerful, integrated, emotionally available masculinity looks like. So a lot of guys who come to me say, hey, I know I don't want to be those things, but no one showed me what else I can be. And I don't have any examples of that in my life or my community, and certainly not in the media. And then conflating with that or colliding with that are just the many cultural changes that we're in right now, that a lot of the places men used to gather are disappearing. Men's clubs, men's circles, different things like that don't really exist in the same way. And more and more of our work, which used to be a place of connection, is turning to remote and computer and this kind of stuff, where even there, men don't necessarily have community. And then we're in this social media environment, which really encourages us to not connect in real life, but spend as much time as we can on screens. So all this swirls together that men are in pain and men are pretty lost in a lot of ways. And so one of the ways out, I argue, is getting into circle with each other, getting into men's groups with each other, where you get to have the lived experience of seeing what kind of courage it takes for a man to fully step into his body, his heart, his life, and not shy away from the emotional content of his life, but actually be courageous enough to face it. And it's the shift from, well, you know, who's really more afraid. The guy who's terrified of emotions and will posture and bloviate his way around and through them, or the man who's willing to just sit in the fire and feel and experience what he needs to feel. And it turns out as men experience the latter, they see that's actually the warrior, that's actually the fierce man who can be fully present to any of his experience without shutting it off. And a man who does that becomes immediately more trustable to the people in his life. And paradoxically, he often ends up getting more of what he wants. Because when you're more trustable, you have better relationships, people pay you more money, they want to spend more time around you. There's all of these downstream consequences to living as this new embodied masculine presence that doesn't treat our body like an object and doesn't immediately dissociate or try to numb out our emotional experience.

Host (The Growth & Ownership Podcast): How will you define a additive version of masculinity in today's world?

Jason Lange: Yeah, so I. I kind of break it down to three basic things. First, really important is the healthy masculine has the capacity and ability to be grounded in their body in the moment. What does grounded mean? It just means being directly connected to our felt body experience and sensations right here and right now, and have our energy slow and low in our bodies. Like literally we can feel our center and we're grounded in that. What that means is we're not just living up in our heads and in our thoughts, thinking about our next goal, our plan or failure or thing to say, or ruminating on decisions, but our locus of attention is actually stably in our body. And there's a type of slowness and stillness and full breath that comes from this grounded place that actually relaxes the nervous systems of anyone around us. So healthy masculine is able to be grounded, then on top of that, it's able to be open, open in the heart, connected, feeling attuned, aware not only of the physical sensations in our body, but but emotionally. What's moving through me? What am I feeling right now? What are the people I am with feeling if I attune to them, Are they relaxed, are they angry, are they excited? And can I stay with that? And this is also a huge part of being opened. It's the capacity of us men to be able to receive, to receive support, to receive help, to receive love. A huge one for men that they're often terrible at even though they want it. So there's this capacity to be open and emotionally available. The third and final part of the healthy masculine in this day and age is we have the grounded in the body, open in the heart, and then up in our heads, it's aware of what matters most. So it's the capacity to choose where we're putting our attention in any given moment, including our bodies, our hearts, and the context of our life and relationships we're in. Where should my attention be right now and can I hold it there? This is an incredibly important skill that's only getting more valuable in the day of AI and dopamine and social media and things that are endlessly Pulling at our attention because our attention is monetizable. To be a master of the oneself these days, particularly as a man, is to be able to master our attention. Can I choose where I want to put my attention and hold it there? And am I aware of all the different complexities and contexts of my life? So I'm able to put that awareness on what matters most right now. Does it matter that my kid just dumped a bunch of chips on the floor? Or does it matter that he actually needs my presence right now? Or does it matter that I'm thinking about the sports game when my dad's sitting in the hospital alone? Where should I have my attention? This is really crucial. So the healthy masculine is able to be grounded, open and aware. We have our power, we have our sensitivity, and we have our focus online.

Host (The Growth & Ownership Podcast): So why do you think that so many men struggle with vulnerability and connection?

Jason Lange: Yeah, because we're not taught super simple. Like I talked about with all the cultural stuff, we are not trained how to be aware of what's happening inside of our bodies, let alone how to express it in a way that creates connection. They've done plenty of studies. Boys are often raised differently than girls, right? Boy falls down, scrapes his knee, hey, get up. You're fine. Get back at it. You're tough, don't cry. Very different experience often with girls. But what that message, particularly what that message of don't cry sends a child is what you're feeling inside doesn't matter. Ignore it. Override it with your head. When we start getting this message from a really young age as boys, then we often get put into some kind of schooling system which, yeah, you know, I'm pro school. It's good to get a good education. But the way the system is set up is essentially sit still and pay attention for hours. And turns out young male bodies need to move. They learn through kinesthetics, through movement of body and time and space, and they have a lot of energy. But the schooling system says, hey, that urge to move in your body, ignore it, override it, sit still. And if you don't, you're a bad kid. We're going to have to put you on some kind of medication or discipline you. And then we get into adolescence and that pressure starts to come from other boys, right, from our peers. If you want to fit in, you got to play it cool. You can't cry, you can't be weak, you can't be sensitive. You'll get attacked or bullied or just left out. So again, we're Taught to override what's happening inside our bodies and hearts. And then we get into adulthood and, you know, I'm here in the States, which heavily values work as like the end goal. And oh yeah, he's a great guy. He's. He's amazing. He's so dedicated. He works 80 hours a week, sleeps under his desk. That only, the only way to do that is to hurt your body and hurt your heart. And we're rewarded for that as men. So we just don't get the training around what's happening inside of us, let alone how to communicate it. So what I have found when men come to me, when they get into men's circles, when they start coaching, is what they discover is I actually have a lot to say and a lot that I'm feeling and I feel most connected to other people when I start to share that, when I start to share the things I think disqualify me from love or success because it turns out other men feel that too. And it becomes such a relief and a burden as they learn the language to share and discover, hey, I'm not alone. And everything I want in life, it's easier to get when I'm in connection and community. And it takes risk. It takes courage. Right? Vulnerability takes courage. I often define it as authenticity plus risk plus softness. And what I mean by softness is not being postured. It's literally, can I keep the front of my belly soft as I'm sharing it? While it's authentic, while it's risky, because we don't ever know how it's going to be received. And that's what makes it powerful and special though. But when men start to lean into that, what they find is connection on the other side, which if all the good things connection can provide someone were available in pill form, everybody would be ordering it as fast as they can. It stabilizes our mood, our breath. It downshifts us into parasympathetic rest and restore. It helps us achieve our goals more. I mean, just feeling connected to other people is our natural born state that the world has particularly tried to bash out of men.

Host (The Growth & Ownership Podcast): Okay, so how can men begin to build Japan more meaningful romantic relationships?

Jason Lange: Yeah. So what I say is the path to creating better, healthy romantic relationships in this day and age starts with getting to know yourself more as a man. So I like to call it attraction from the inside out. You have to do your deep inner work to heal your wounds and learn the most important thing that a man can bring to any kind of relationship, including romantic Ones what it means to be present. Right. And how do we get present? Well, we have to be grounded, open and aware. But presence, the actual capacity to just be breathing and be here with someone is frankly the biggest turn on to the feminine. In particular, for heterosexuals out there, it's, wow, this guy's really with me. He's paying attention. He's not trying to fix me or use me, but he's being present with me. Now, the challenge with being present for so many men is we walk around with so much tension in our bodies and so much rumination in our heads that it's really hard to do that. So our work is to clear out the blocks. What prevents me from just being relaxed, present and alert in the moment so I can put my attention on whoever I want. In this case, romantic partners. But it could be kids, could be friends, could be family, could be coworkers. And people don't teach that right. Men think it's all about what's on the outside. How big my bank account is, how fancy my car is, how chiseled my six pack abs are. And yeah, you know that that matters to some women, but those are women who are judging you based on your external worth and not your internal worth. And the only relationships that are going to work long term are when you value each other's internal worlds. So men, our work is to go inside and get in touch with our internal selves so we can learn how to lead in a more mature, modern way. That's not caveman style. Hey, we're doing this. It's, hey, here's my vision for what would create more love connection consciousness in our life together. What do you think? How does that feel? And that kind of collaborative leadership is so powerful and so rare. This is the thing I tell so many guys who are like, oh, my God, women have all the power. Right? When you become a conscious man who's doing his inner work, particularly as you get into your 30s and beyond, you are a rare man on this planet who has taken responsibility for his pain and who cares about the pain of other others in particular. And that makes you very rare and precious in the world of relationships, dating, etc.

Host (The Growth & Ownership Podcast): Okay, what role does community play in helping men show up better for their family and society?

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's incredibly important. Men need community. We grow faster and we grow farther together. The masculine part of all of us, whether you're a man or a woman, the masculine part of all of us grows through challenge and feedback. So we need to do hard things and then get feedback on how they're going. Men's community, men's work, men's groups, men's circles. The thing I'm so passionate about is one of the most powerful places we can get that feedback. This is a thing so many men secretly crave that they often don't even know they want till they get to, you know, in the types of experiences I create for men, and I call it the spinach in the teeth moment, Right? Imagine I'm walking around with a big piece of spinach in my teeth all day. And then you and I meet up, and you're like, hey, Jason, dude, you aware you got spinach in your teeth? And I'm like, what? I feel a little embarrassed at first. I cringe, I get it out. I'm like. But then what happens is my trust for you goes up because you told me something you were seeing about me that I couldn't see myself. And I was walking around all day with this big piece of spinach in my mouth, and no one else taught me, told me. And so that kind of care, Terry Real, the therapist, calls this carefrontation. I'm confronting you with my care. Hey, man, I see this thing happening for you, and here's my feedback. Here's where I think you're off base, or here's what I know you want in life, and that is felt by men as love. Someone who cares enough about me to call me on my bullshit, not shaming me, but calling me forward, because they know who I want to be, they know what I stand for. They know the type of man and life I want to lead, and they're supporting me in it. So men's community creates this mechanism for feedback and growth that guys need. The other thing it does is it gives us a place to find our balance again when we're knocked off center. I don't care how tough a guy you think you are, there will be a point in every single man's life where he won't be able to just push through because his body will fail him. It could be illness, accident, or the one that's coming for us all, old age. And at that point, you are quickly going to find out, what kind of support do I have around me? And most men wait until the crisis to realize that, and then they have a double crisis. I have whatever the incident incident is, and now I have no one around me to help. So men's community is an investment you can make to support you through those most troubling moments in your life. Now build the Community. Now, then you have people who are willing to show up and be there for you because you've created a meaningful relationship with them. And again, the other two things I'll just say is men's community gives men purpose and belonging. Purpose, meaning, wow, my presence really matters. It matters to the men in this group whether I come or not. We also get a sense of belonging to whether or not I'm here matters to the other men. Right. I'm part of something. And so many men feel so disconnected and not a part of in a men's group. Men's community, men's circle is one way to start filling that now.

Host (The Growth & Ownership Podcast): Okay, so if every man were part of a men's group, how do you think the world would be different?

Jason Lange: I think the world would be thriving in so many more ways. We would have men protecting other men, calling other men forward, and men would have a place to go to be relieved of their burden and stress. So much of the challenge men feel these days is they don't know what to do or where to put their feelings. And because we're not taught what they are or how to share them or how to work with them, what men turn to instead is alcohol, booze, weed, porn, masturbation, sex, video games, tv. You can think of all the different ways we can numb out these days and emotional content we haven't dealt with, we will push out onto other people. Father Richard Rohr's beautiful teacher talks about pain we haven't transformed, we will transmit. So any of our pain we are not dealing with, we are going to be inflicting that, consciously or not, on the people around us, often the people we love the most. A men's group gives us a safe, responsible place to bring and work with our pain. And as we metabolize it, we don't push it out into our communities and the world around us. And the more men that would be willing to do that, the better this world would be.

Host (The Growth & Ownership Podcast): Okay, thank you very much, Jason. This has been such an insightful and important conversation. So it's clear that redefining masculinity is not just about individual growth. It is about creating stronger relationship families and communities. So for everyone listening who feel called to explore this work, Jason's message is simple. You don't have to do it alone. Thank you so much for joining us today, Jason. To our listener, if you found value in this episode, don't forget to subscribe, share and leave a review. We see you next time for another meaningful conversation. So just in case our listener wants to reach you. Is there a way they can reach you?

Jason Lange: Thank you so much. And for men who kind of are lit up by what I'm talking about, you can just head over to my site, Evolutionary Men. And if you want to learn a little bit more about yourself and get the ball rolling, I got a free quiz on there that'll tell you about your gifts and your blind spots as a man and your masculinity. Just head over to Evolutionary Men quiz.

Host (The Growth & Ownership Podcast): Thank you very much. That would be all for now, please.