Men’s Mental Health, Relationships, and the Power of Brotherhood | Jason Lange | The Wisdom movers

Host (The Wisdom movers): Hello everyone and welcome to yet another episode of the wizard of Earth podcast. Today I am joined by JC Lang. He is a men's embodiment coach, a Certified no More Mr. Nice Guys Coach, a group facilitator, and a passionate advocate for men's personal growth. After his own struggles with loneliness, relationships and finding purpose, Jason discovers that the daily discovered the life changing impact of men's group and made it a mission to help men grow heavier relationship, develop emotional resilience and redefine what healthy masculinity masculinity looks like. Hello, Jesse, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here.

Jason Lange: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Excited to be here.

Host (The Wisdom movers): Thank you very much. So you are welcome. So now let's talk about, can you give us some backgrounds to, to the things you do? Can you just give us some entry to, to everything you do right now?

Jason Lange: Sure, yeah. I'm a men's coach, men's guide, men's group facilitator. And I came into this work because it's the work that really changed my life. I had a version of growing up that like a lot of men, meant that I didn't know how to be connected to my body, how to be connected to my heart, how to be connected to my feelings. I was often anxious, ruminating, or numbed out to all of it by trying to use substances to change how I felt. In my case, often food, sometimes alcohol and absolutely porn and masturbation. And my journey to, you know, frankly, just landing inside myself so I could be a healthy man and get into healthy relationships and have a healthy career really took me down a long and winding road that landed me in men's groups and men's work more than anything else, which really changed my capacity to show up as a healthy man. And I just did it so much, I got inspired to support other men along the road. And here we are.

Host (The Wisdom movers): Okay, that's good. That's amazing. So now we just talked about your introduction. Now moving on. You, you, you are a facilitator of men group and you often say that every man should be part of a men's group. Now can you tell us how men's group has been part of a men's group, transformed your own life deeply that now you, you're not talking or you're not advising other people to follow that part?

Jason Lange: Yeah, men's group, like I said, is what brought me back to myself. And for a lot of guys, the power of a group is that it helps us get connected to what we're actually feeling and experiencing in our bodies, in our hearts and in our lives. And it supports us in getting closer to the things we want to get closer to, whether that's people, goals or ourselves. And so for me, being part of a men's group provided me with two things I had never really had in my life. I had an okay connection with my father, but in a lot of ways he wasn't very present for me. And men's group is where the first place I really learned in my life to come for both support for when I got knocked down, when I got overwhelmed, when I got stressed, when I had a fail in life, whatever that might be. And other men were able to support me in getting back up and finding my center and coming back to myself when I couldn't handle things on my own. And the other thing I got from men's group was accountability and feedback. So other men who know me and trust me throughout my life have been able to give me feedback about how they're experiencing me and how that relates to what I'm telling them I want to be and do in my life. And so this is a really simple thing, but it's just, hey, I want to be building a business in X. And a men's group is the kind of thing that's going to keep checking in with you around what that is and did with me in my careers and now my career as a men's coach and help keep me on track. And if I'm showing up or behaving in a way that isn't in alignment with what I said I want to do, other men can point it out in a loving and challenging way. And it's that sweet combination of both support and challenge that, that absolutely transformed my life. And now, you know, I've seen transform thousands of men who have done the kind of work I'm promoting.

Host (The Wisdom movers): Thank you. So, talking about men. Talking about men now, I just read you, you talked about heady masculinity. Now tell us what is heady masculinity? And is there, is there, is there an unhealy form of masculinity?

Jason Lange: Yeah. So most of us are coming in with models of masculinity that just do not work. And the oldest and most known one is what we'd kind of call the invulnerable macho jerk.

Host (The Wisdom movers): Right?

Jason Lange: The guy who just does whatever he wants, takes whatever he wants and doesn't give a about how that impacts other people. Right. And he never shares weakness, vulnerability, etc. And he's not particularly Concerned about what other people are feeling. And we've had thousands of years of examples of what those kind of men do in our culture, to our families, to our kids, to the environment. And we still get examples of that form of masculinity in the red pill movement in the manosphere and everything we see there. The other major model we get is kind of the. The more bottled up, stoic. The man, you know, who shows up in his family, isn't super aggressive, but just keeps his whole inner world on lockdown. I sometimes kind of call this the grandfatherly energy. You know, sometimes men will be learning something about their grandfather, not from their grandfather, but wow, he survived a war or a famine or fled a country in persecution, and he's never once talked about it, Right. He just keeps it buried deep down inside his pain, that is. And then the other more common one these days is the nice guy, right? The guy who isn't aggressive, isn't mean, is concerned about safety, wants everyone to be okay. And he works hard to please other people. He often has a hard time setting boundaries, has a hard time standing up for himself, and kind of becomes a doormat in life. And none of those are effective for men. And all of them leave men in some kind of pain these days. So the healthy masculinity we're talking about really comes down to for so many men. What I say is just three simple things. The capacity to be grounded and present in the moment and in our bodies, meaning we are actually connected and feeling the sensations of our body in the moment, in our connection literally to the ground. So our energy isn't just up in our head, it's down in our lower body, in our legs, and we're connected to all of it. And grounded means we're fairly regulated. We're relaxed, we're alert right here. Then once we're grounded in our bodies, the next step of a healthy masculinity is to practice being open in our hearts. And really what that means is we're able to both feel others and feel ourselves and be impacted by others and be attuned to our impact on others. And there's a kind of emotional connection that comes online there where we're not just connected to our bodies, but we're aware of what we're feeling, and we're at least trying to get a sense of what other people are feeling. This is also where sensitivity comes online, which often gets a bad rap for men. But when you think about sensitivity, it's just an ability to feel and, you know, elite Military personnel, the best martial artists in the world, what they'll tell you is they're extremely sensitive. They are able to feel themselves, other people, and the environment. And then once we're grounded in our body and open in our hearts, we bring our mind back online. In the healthy masculine is able to consciously put his attention and awareness on that which matters most in the moment. So this is an increasingly important one, as so many things, particularly technology, are constantly fighting for our attention. And for most men, they have no mastery of the ability to. To put their focus where they want and hold it there without interruption. And then on top of that, it's also about the capacity not only hold your focus somewhere, but know where's the most important place for me to put it. Right now could be anywhere. And that decision of where do I put my attention is an incredibly important capacity for the masculine. But when we're grounded in our body, open in our heart, and aware of what matters most in each moment, we become an incredible masculine presence that other people are magnetized to feel safe around, and we actually relax a room when we enter it.

Host (The Wisdom movers): Wow, that's massive. Thank you very much for sharing. That's. That's very, very nice. Now let's talk about. Well, the. The help culture today. Now, we know many men, they hesitate to ask for help because we see it as witness. Now why do you believe that? This belief is still very common. Is it. Is he witness to ask for help or is the. The person that is been that asking for the help? Okay, let's just face the question one at a time. Is, is he witness to. To. To. For a man to ask for help?

Jason Lange: Sorry, could you say it one more time? You just cut out there and I was having a hard time understanding it.

Host (The Wisdom movers): Sorry. I said many men, they hesitate to ask for help because they see it as weakness, like being weak. Now why do you think that this belief is still very common?

Jason Lange: Yeah. So oftentimes in the work, when I discover men who believe vulnerability is weak, connecting to other men is weak. Any of that, really. Anytime they're using the word weak, it's because there's fear. Right? That's it. What we label is weak as men often means I am afraid to be that or experience that or feel that. That's it. So in reaction to the fear, what most men do is they posture, they build up this suit of armor around them and pretend I'm tough and I'm okay. And that is a cultural message most men get from a very young age across the world that to Be a man means to be tough, means to be invulnerable, and means to never ask for help. And there's all kinds of reasons. You know, our cultures have landed on that. But the radical truth at this moment in time is it's killing men. Suicide rates for men are three and a half to four times higher. Men often die earlier of heart disease. And these things can all be traced to how much emotional and physical tension men hold in their bodies. And we hold that in our bodies. But because we're afraid if we feel it or share it, we're going to be labeled weak, bullied, ostracized, et cetera. So it has a massive consequence for men who basically just want to stay safe. And they're so afraid of what might happen, and they've never experienced what might happen in vulnerability or connection with another man that they walk around their whole lives posturing away from their pain or vulnerability and pretending like everything is okay. And lo and behold, what that drives most men to is early death, physical illness, or often even just addiction. Alcohol, weed, nicotine, porn, food, overworking, sex, you name it. Men will do anything to not have to feel that inner discomfort, including labeling it as weak. And part of the new men's work movement and movement for men is saying, no. You know, who's actually more brave or courageous? The man who's terrified of vulnerability and feeling his feelings and connecting with other men, or the man who just steps right into all of that and faces it, eyes open, heart wide. And it turns out that latter one is what most men experience as courage once they start to see it and step into it themselves.

Host (The Wisdom movers): Okay, thank you. That's beautiful. Now you, you talk about living behind the lone wolf mentality. So can you tell us what a healthy interference among men look like talking about?

Jason Lange: Totally, yeah. It's basically saying, I need help. That's it. It's being able to ask for help or share when you're in pain or something isn't going well. Almost all men I work with really struggle to ask for help and to receive help when it's offered. And many men do fall prey to this myth of the lone wolf. I'm a lone wolf. I don't need anyone, I don't need a pack. I'm tough as nails. And just like in nature, the lone wolf is actually the wolf that was kicked out of the pack. And that wolf will die sooner. It will not survive as long as the wolf in the pack. So men learning to come into community is a life affirming choice. And Action which says I belong to something, it's important for me to connect. And it has massive consequences for our physical, emotional and mental health. When we learn that we can get more of what we want, when we have allies and particularly brothers in a men's group and in connection who, like I said, can support us when we're down and hold us accountable and give us feedback when we're off track.

Host (The Wisdom movers): Okay, now, since we're talking about men's group now, let's say I don't belong to any men's group. I don't know any. How do I join the group? How do I form a group? What should I be looking for? What should I be looking out for before I can form a particular group?

Jason Lange: Yeah. The good news is men's groups are spreading far and wide at this point. There's online groups, there's in person groups, there's organizations like the Mankind Project that pretty much have a global presence. There's guys like me who are doing stuff at a more individual level. And really what you're looking for in a men's group is, you know, six to 12 other men who are committed to getting together regularly two to four times a month and not just talking about politics, sports, etc, but who are committed to using that time to slow down and get real about what's happening in their lives and share about what they're wanting, what's in the way, and how they yearn to break free of that. And a good men's group, like I said, is going to slow you down and help you get clear about where you're headed in your life, what's in the way, and often way more than men realize how we as men are often sabotaging ourselves in the very things we want the most because of old habits and defensive patterning from older in our life, which will become obvious and clear to men who spend time with us regularly in a men's group. So you can go out and look for a group or me and other people teach men how to start groups. Because the structure of the group is what's going to make sure it doesn't just default to, to how men normally connect, which is talking about things or connecting through just putting our attention on sports or activities or women, you know, whatever that might be. And so learning the structure of a men's group is an important part of creating one. Or if you don't have any interest in learning that structure, you go out and you join an existing one that already has those structures in place. And that's Going to teach you what it means to be in a group and what the expectations of each member are to participate.

Host (The Wisdom movers): Okay. Yeah. So thank you very much for that. Now, talking about group, now let's talk about main books. What is what. Okay, what you mentioned, the man box. Man box. So what is man box and how does it quietly shape the lives of men from childhood to adulthood?

Jason Lange: Yeah, so the man box is this, you know, term in the work we often use. Like I said, that is a collection of beliefs, some of which are universal across cultures, some of which change. But essentially the man box is this box and inside of it are a whole bunch of attributes that as long as you check those boxes off you, you're considered a man. And if you don't, you're not considered a man. And the biggest and most important one is. Yeah, to be a man means to be invulnerable. It means to never ask for help. It means to not be weak, to not be a pussy. As you know, we'd say in the States in a derogatory way in kind of lower unconscious men's work. And essentially it becomes the set of expectations men think they have to live up to in order to be considered a man. And when we don't live up to those, you know, we're ostracized, bullied, named, whatever. The challenge with that is it creates a very narrow range of acceptable behavior for men. Essentially default man box culture says men are allowed to feel anger and lust and everything else makes you some kind of woman or less than a man. And like, like I said, that box we get put in as men and those expectations end up having massive downstream consequences for our physical, emotional and mental health. So part of the work of the men's work movement right now is to expand the man box to include way more that it's okay to have feelings, it's okay to ask for help. You're not weak. Vulnerability is strength. All these new definitions we're bringing in that make life a lot more sustainable for men.

Host (The Wisdom movers): Okay, thank you. Thank you very much for telling us that. So now this M Books, now it contains some kind of belief that can be actually, that's actually dangerous to men. Like men should not be vulnerable, men shouldn't seek for help and stuff like that. So now if, if, if you talk to younger men, boys coming up now, what, what sort of advice would you give them as regard this? Because when you see a man that is, is trying to be vulnerable, when society sees a man that's trying to be vulnerable, that the Price or that ask for help. They tend to. They tend to. There's a word I'm looking for. They tend to group this set of men as weak men or effeminates. So how. How are we able to. Like, how. How can we change his mindset that. Doing these things actually. Yes, doing this. Yeah.

Jason Lange: Like I said to, you know, young men who see that message or. Or are afraid of, you know, being feminized or whatever that means in these derogatory ways. Basically, again, it just comes down to fear. They're afraid. And so the best way for young men to learn there's a different way is to experience a different way, which is why I promote men's work in men's groups. Meaning when you get around another man who can stand there and feel his grief and not collapse and not posture, almost every man immediately gets, oh, crap, I was wrong. That's not weakness. That is incredible bravery. I wish I could do that. Or when a man can stand in his fire, his rage, his anger, but not be explosive and aggressive, but actually feel safe, that rewrites the story for men. Or when a man can claim his shame and we see a man lift himself up in dignity. Yeah, I did something there and I'm not proud of it, but that doesn't make me an awful person. We get that transmission directly, there's no way to skip it. Right. So you have to spend time with other deep, present men who are doing something you've never done before. And when the guys do that, they start to get the news story and all the mano manosphere red pill stuff. It's just an attempt of those men to control. They want to control other people so they don't have to feel vulnerable. That's it. And a man who's trying to control other people is actually a very weak man because it means he's living in fear. So these are the stories we have to tell young men. And young men often don't have opportunities these days to spend time with older, healthy men. All these structures in our culture have kind of fallen apart. I think that's a big reason why we're starting to see men's work, men's groups, and rites of passage in particular for boys. Come back of, hey, we got to get boys around healthy older men who can model for them what real strength looks like. And real strength is having the capacity to not only be in your power, but also be in your pain and be in your heart.

Host (The Wisdom movers): Okay, thank you. That's beautiful. Thank you very much for sharing that. So now let's talk about relationships. Now relationships are a major part of your work. Now what are some of the common mistakes that men make that can cause distance with their partners?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'd say two. Two major things I see showing up for men these days is one, they don't know how to feel and express their emotions and feelings. And two, many men are reluctant to actually lead in relationship. So I'll start with the first one, right. So many men, like I said, aren't trained how to be in our bodies, how to be connected to our feelings. And so one of the most common things I hear from women these days is I can't feel my man. I have no idea what he's feeling or thinking. Keeps it all inside. And when I don't know what he's feeling or thinking, guess what? I don't feel connected to him. So our job as men is to learn how to feel our feelings. It's really simple. And how to share them. And lo and behold, the more comfortable we get with our emotions, the more comfortable and less afraid we become of our intimate partner's emotions. So instead of trying to fix our partner all the time, oh my God, you're not happy or there's a problem or you're stuck, I'm going to fix it. Which drives most women nuts. We have the capacity to just be present with them in the feeling, which creates way more safety and connection. And then the second one is a lot of guys because particularly in the last decades, we've just seen example after example of the pathological, predatory masculine and how it can objectify and use and abuse women. There's many men who, who are terrified of leading in a relationship because they don't want to be that guy. And so they default to playing it safe, keeping it cool, or letting the woman lead. And yeah, women can lead these days. They're, they're, they're very self actualized. It's way different than it was a hundred years ago. But a lot of them lead all day long. And the last thing they want to do is have to lead their man as well. And so learning the skills to lead a relationship not from a place of domination, but from a place of care is one of the most important things men can do these days. Which really means we learn two simple things. Lead and then listen. And lead starts with what do I want? What do I think my partner wants? I'm going to make a plan and I'm going to make it happen and I'm going to share it with her. And Then I listen, what's the impact? How does my partner feel about it? How are they responding to it? And then I course correct if I need to. And it's a skill a lot of men just don't know how to do. But the good news with both of these things is it can be trained. And when you train that capacity, along with what we talked about in the beginning of being able to get grounded in your body, open in your heart, and and aware of what matters most, you become an extraordinarily rare conscious masculine presence that women will absolutely respond to and feel safe and deeply connected to and, yes, even attracted to.

Host (The Wisdom movers): Okay, thank you very much. That's beautiful. So men should be very good with communicating. Now, you've worked with different men from different backgrounds. Now can you, can you tell us from your experience if the challenges they face are similar or they are all different from each other?

Jason Lange: Yeah, you know, every man's on a unique journey of his own, so there are absolutely some differences. But yeah, for a lot of guys, it's all the stuff we talked about. It's being raised in cultures where we're taught to just be tough, never share weakness, not know what's going on in our body, and definitely, definitely don't get too close to other men. And I've seen this across really every generation. And the work of us men, no matter who you are, is, can I learn to get present in my body? Can I take responsibility for. For my wounding and pain from earlier in my life? And can I absolutely train myself in the skills I need to be able to communicate in modern, healthy relationships, whether with my family, my kids, my significant other, or my co workers. And lo and behold, the place I have seen, regardless of where a man is at in his life, where he can build these skills the fastest is in a men's group.

Host (The Wisdom movers): Okay, so that's good. Thank you. Thank you very much for sharing. So now, now let's talk about how fathers can model a healthy masculinity for their kids in a world where the expectation of men continues to change. So how can fathers model healthy masculinity for their sons in this particular world?

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's teaching young boys, our sons, that it's okay to feel and that, frankly, you will have more power in your life in your ability to move towards what you want the more you learn to handle your nervous system and emotions. And so fathers need to learn to do that ourselves.

Host (The Wisdom movers): Right?

Jason Lange: To not be afraid. It's not about dumping our feelings on our kids, but if we're Watching a movie or having a hard moment and tears come to. Just let them come and model for our kids, hey, that's okay for our sons. And it's to teach our sons and boys to be in their bodies and trust themselves and not constantly be looking to other people and for the right answers. The other massive thing, like I said, to tie this all together is if you're not taking care of yourself and thriving as a father, you're communicating that to your children, to your sons. So if all you do is work and your health is terrible, that's what your kids are going to learn. It's what your sons are going to learn. A man should be. If all. All you do is spend time with your family and you never do anything for yourself or have any friends of your own, that's what your sons are going to learn. If you explode in rage every time you get a little angry because you're frustrated about your life, your son's going to see that and model that and become that. This is why it's so important. Even more than anything we can teach to our sons, it's how are we being as fathers in our own lives? How do we feel inside of ourselves? That is the imprint they're getting from the day they're born. How do we handle our stress? How do we ask for help? What kind of connection do we have in our lives? So for a lot of dads, the best thing they can do is just learn to start taking care of themselves and thrive in life and their sons will notice. The other great thing you can do, like I said, is intentionally work to get your sons offline in nature, around other healthy men. You do that, you're setting them up for success.

Host (The Wisdom movers): Okay, that's good. Thank you. So thank you very much for sharing. So we, as we move to the concluding part of this segment of the show, I have some few questions left for you now. Can you tell us what rule does purpose and service play in helping men to experience lasting fulfillment?

Jason Lange: Ask that one more time. I didn't quite understand it.

Host (The Wisdom movers): What, what rule does purpose.

Jason Lange: Ah, yes, yeah,

Host (The Wisdom movers): yeah.

Jason Lange: Purpose is incredibly important for the masculine in men. And, and really just what it means is having a sense of direction in our lives that, hey, there's something I'm moving towards and my life, my presence is impacting the world, my family, my culture, my community in some way. And when we don't have that as men, we suffer. It's like an actual depression. What is the point of getting up in the world, right? Getting up and Purpose is really interesting. A lot of guys think it has to be some blissful thing I was explicitly born to do, etc, that's my job. And you know, I crack the mystical code. But oftentimes purpose is just this is something meaningful to me that I'm going to spend my whole life working on. So I've worked with guys who their purpose is to be the best father in the world or it's that everyone gets to experience the power of a healthy, connected meal. You know, real purpose is something we can never actually accomplish. It's a direction, it's a horizon we're moving toward. And for so many men, what they don't realize is our individual purpose in life is often most deeply connected to our most affecting pain. So our deepest pain is often connected to our deepest purpose. What is the thing we have been in pain around our life that we have had to learn to survive and thrive through? Every man has some version of it, some hardship, some family issue, some challenge physically. And oftentimes our purpose comes down to, wow, this thing I had to figure out, that was so hard for me, turns out I'm uniquely qualified to understand and help others figure that out for themselves. And so for a lot of men, they, they just keep stumbling through life trying things. And that's useful, but if you're not aware of your deepest pain, you can do that for your whole life. And so for me, right, I was a kid who was raised in a house of neglect. No emotional connection, no physical connection. And lo and behold, it turns out what lights me up the most in life, what I'm really good at, is creating spaces for men to connect to each other, to feel connected to themselves, to each other, to the planet. And that's part of my purpose now, right, like to get every man into a men's group because it changed my life. So makes a lot of sense to me. I want to help other men feel that as well. And purpose can be a hard thing for us to find. It can be almost like mythical in a lot of guys minds. But often it's something we can do every single day in big and small ways. And the best two ways to get connected to that are to spend time with other men who help you get connected to and intimate to your pain. And then to spend time offline in nature. You do those two things enough as a man, your purpose will reveal itself to you in pretty clear ways.

Host (The Wisdom movers): Wow, thank you very much. Thank you very much for sharing all of that. So moving on to my next question now, let's say a man is listening to the show and he realizes that he has been living according to an unhealthy belief system for years. What is the first practical step that you should take toward meaningful change?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I treat this one really simple. It's start connecting to other men and don't wait. So be the one to lead. You know, I personally desire every man to be in a men's group, but it can start way before that. Almost every man I've ever talked to, no matter how lonely or isolated they sometimes feel in life, if I ask them, hey, is there, is there a guy in your life, for whatever reason, you just feel kind of connected to or you feel an intuition to connect to more that you've enjoyed being around or wanted, had curiosity about getting to know more. And they'll say, yeah, yeah, you know, so and so, da da, da. And so the action you can take right now is be the one to reach out, hey, I want to grab a coffee, I want to go for a walk, whatever it might be. Then get together with that man and have a real conversation. Go deep, talk about things that are actually meaningful to you, do the thing you might be terrified to do and get a little vulnerable and see what happens. Usually what men get back, not from every man, because some guys just aren't up for it, you know, let's be honest. But from most men is they're met, they're actually met in some depth. And when we're met in depth as men, we feel connection and connection. If we could bottle it up and put it in a pill, guys would be paying unlimited amounts of money to get it. In terms of its benefits for our health, our energy, our well being, connection is what we are wired for as human beings. And most men try to move through their lives without it. So just find another guy and reach out and try to do something different now.

Host (The Wisdom movers): Okay, thank you. Thank you very much. Now for my final question for you. Looking ahead, what, what would you say gives you hope about the future of men relationship, our modern masculinity?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say it's the burgeoning men's work movement. You know, when I first got into my original men's group over about 20 years ago, you said men's group and most people didn't know what it was or they thought of it as some kind of church study group or maybe an Alcoholics Anonymous group of recovery group. But now they're starting to be everywhere. And there's rarely a month that goes by that someone doesn't send Me an article about the male health crisis, the male loneliness epidemic, the the downsides of the manosphere, and the red pill. So there's a tidal wave happening of men are in pain and we need to do something different. And the resources are starting to show up. So as long as you're a man who's willing to take that chance and try something new, there's actually never been a better time to change the direction and course of your life. Because even if there isn't something local to you now, through technology like you and I are connecting on right now, you can join a virtual men's group from anywhere in the world as long as you have an Internet connection. And that was never possible, you know, 20, 30 years ago. So for the men who are ready, the tools are there to heal and change your life.

Host (The Wisdom movers): Okay, thank you very much. That's been very, very, very amazing. So, Jason, I want to say a big thank you for sharing your wisdom and reminding us our true, true strength is not found in isolation, but in self awareness, meaningful relationships, and the courage to grow. Thank you for your insights today, Jason.

Jason Lange: Great. Thanks so much for having me. It's been a pleasure,

Host (The Wisdom movers): too. I've really, really enjoyed this conversation, especially since it's talking about men. And I'm a man, too. So I've written down and I've picked one or two things from it. And it's very important to have a men's group. So before I let you go, can you quickly drop your details? Like, if people want to connect with you, maybe join one of your men's group? I just learned from you generally, so how can they. How can they go about that? Great. Yeah.

Jason Lange: Easiest way to keep up with me or learn more about this stuff I'm talking about is just to go to my website, evolutionary.men. so it's not dot com, it's dot men. And on there, you'll find a podcast I have about men's work and men's groups writings. I've done programs. I've done a free quiz for men if you want to learn about what's, you know, blocking you from really getting what you want in your life. And there's a contact form on there as well, so you can always just reach out to me if you need a little guidance as to what's next.

Host (The Wisdom movers): All right, Jesse, thank you very much for the show, and I wish you the very best of luck and everything you do going forward.

Jason Lange: Great. Thank you so much.