There's a particular kind of quiet that happens when a man is surrounded by people and still feels completely alone, and I lived inside that quiet for a long time before I ever had a name for it. I sat down with Lisa Lacey on Notes from the Edge and we went straight at it, the loneliness epidemic, and why it hits men even harder because of what we're taught to do with our own bodies from the time we're small.
We talked about getting told to man up, about staying stuck up in the head because the rest of the body can feel like unsafe territory, and about the years I spent handling everything hard with a bottle instead of ever letting anyone actually see me. I told her about the somatic work that cracked me open in my early twenties, long before anyone was talking about that stuff publicly, and what it's like to finally let two decades of held emotion move through you at once. That's not a one time fix. It's a practice, right? There's no finish line on it.
We got into mentorship too, what it meant to have men like John Wineland, Ken Wilber, and Robert Glover show me a bigger map than the one I grew up with. And we talked about the nice guy pattern, how being nice can quietly turn from a real choice into a survival strategy, and what that costs a man over time. Self compassion kept coming up. It's easy to hear that phrase and think it's some soft add on you sprinkle over the real work. But the way I actually use it is as ground, the thing underneath you that has to be there before shame is even willing to loosen its grip.
We closed on wants and needs, why it's so hard to just say what we actually want out loud, and why the people who can do that with each other build something real.
So I'll leave you with the same question Lisa left me with. What have you been performing just to get through the day, and what would it cost you to finally set it down?
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Jason Lange: Welcome to Notes from the Edge where we have the conversations we should have been having all along. We talk about the things that we're not talking about. I'm your host, Lisa Lacey, writer, trauma educator, executive advisor, and author of the upcoming memoir Notes from a Certified Mad Woman. Welcome to the Edge Welcome back to another episode of Notes from the Edge. I am your host, Lisa Lacey, and this is the place we have the conversations we should have been having all along. Guess what? You're not talking about it. So we're gonna today with our guest, Jason Lange. Now check out Jason's bio. He is a men's embodiment, coach, group facilitator, and evolutionary gu who helps men develop greater clarity around their purpose, relationships, emotional lives. He began his journey into men's work in his early 20s after struggling for years with loneliness. And guys, we talk about the loneliness epidemic all the time in here. He had discomfort in his body. Difficult. Creating romantic relationships. Those are hard Even on a good day. Over the following two decades, he built men's groups that became one of the most influential forces in his own development. And then that became his central mission. He is a certified. I love this. No more Mr. Nice Guy Coach. And has trained and studied with leaders including John Wineland, Dr. Robert Glover, Trip Lanier, and Ken Wilbur. Today, he works to help move men beyond the isolated, lone wolf model of masculinity towards emotional expression, stronger intimate relationships and bonds, and a deeper connection with themselves, their families, and their communities. Jason, we're gonna love this topic. Welcome to Notes from the Edge. How are you today, my friend?
Host (Notes from the Edge): I'm doing great. So pumped to be here with you.
Jason Lange: Yeah, me too. Me too. This is such a needed conversation. The loneliness epidemic has been coming up a lot in our conversations, and I think for men, it's even worse because of how you guys are conditioned. So let's start with your story instead of theory. So you came into men's work in your early 20s, which is pretty young. What was kind of what made you realize that the way you were living was simply not working for you?
Host (Notes from the Edge): Yeah, the roots of my journey into men's work and now leading men's work start right at home for me, I think, in a lot of ways, very true for a lot of men in this work. And essentially, you know, I'm a white guy, raised lower middle class in the Midwest of the United States. So really privileged in the sense all my basic security needs were met growing up. Stable housing, stable food and shelter. What became apparent to me, and where this really started for me was when I became a teenager. So in my case, I'm a heterosexual man, hit puberty, hormones are going. Start to find myself really attracted to women. And what I discovered was, could not connect. And so I would get really anxious, kind of tight, sweaty, frozen in my body. I would get really up in my head ruminating. And I just did not know literally how to just talk or connect to, particularly women I was attracted to.
Jason Lange: But really talking women, talking to the ladies helps.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Exactly. And this is the first place I kind of saw it. And then even as I progressed through high school, in my case, I started to make some close male friends. But I just kind of intuitively, you know, I didn't quite have the language for it back then, but noticed they related to each other differently than me. And essentially they would touch each other, they would horse play, they would wrestle. There was like a physical connection between them, and I just didn't have the wiring for that. And so essentially what really kind of got me going was I wanted to have experiences with women, but I couldn't. Right. This thing felt out of reach for me. And then I saw friends getting into relationships and learning about themselves and I felt really stuck. And the older I got, the more shame I started to feel about it. So as I, you know, got out of high school and then into college and then as a, into my mid-20s, I was a virgin, I'd basically only kissed a girl, and I felt so much shame around it. So then simultaneously I'm starting to get to know men and I'm building close relationships. But none of them knew this about me. I kept it so locked down.
Jason Lange: Because of the shame.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Because of shame and because frankly, I didn't know how to connect about these types of things as a man.
Jason Lange: Well, I think you brought up a good point. Sometimes we don't have the language for it, for what's happening inside of us.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Yes. And I think that, like you said, I would argue is particularly strong for us men in that, you know, we talk about this as kind of man box culture in a sense, and I'll describe that in a second. But I think what I experienced was actually just an intensified version of what many men experience in our, in our culture. And essentially, you know, what I later discovered through doing deep work and men's groups and somatic therapy and all these different things was I was raised in a house of neglect. The there was no emotional or physical connection. So my body literally did not know how to receive touch, how to ask for touch, how to share what I was feeling inside. And so as I got out into the world, I had no idea how to do those things right. And it actually felt And for quite a long time, actually even once I did start getting closer to both men and women. Touch. Anytime I received touch, my body would brace, like it would tighten up because it just was so uncomfortable. And so what men in general experience kind of like what I experienced is what we kind of call this idea of the man box, which is, you know, it's a little different in different cultures around the world. But there's some specific things that seem to play out in general, which is that to be a man means you have to check off certain boxes that of behavior that live in the so called man box. And if you check these things off, you're considered a man. If you don't check them off, you're considered a boy. You know, you can think of all the expletives we might use in a men might use in a locker room and essentially the most prominent one men feel this pressure around is that to be a man means to be invulnerable, means to never feel weak, never express emotions, never ask for help. Oftentimes it means other men are a competition, they're not allies. It means pushing yourself hard, picking yourself up from the bootstraps. You can start to kind of feel the energetic of this that's particularly strong. I think here where, where I am in the United States of, you know, you can kind of think of the romantic notion of the, the frontier cowboy, the Marlboro man, he's tough as nails, doesn't need anyone. Right. Never asks for help in the problem.
Jason Lange: I leave a lone wolf there. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Another example of this, the so called myth and romanticized version of the lone wolf. But it starts really young, which is the challenge in that obviously things are changing, thankfully. But they've done research studies on how boys and girls are often raised differently from a young age. Right. Little girl falls down, hurts herself. Care, compassion, comfort. Come in. Hey, are you okay? Da, da, da, da. Little boy falls down. Oh, you're fine. Get back up. You're tough. You can do it. Just get right back up. Suck it up, suck it up. Right? We start teaching this at a pretty young age and obviously there's some powerful positives to self reliance and, you know, getting back up and bouncing back. But the deeper message that often young boys start to absorb even at that age is whatever's happening in your body, ignore it and override it with your head. So that pain, just push through it, get through it, stop crying. Right? You can start to. We still hear these phrases in our culture.
Jason Lange: We do.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Girls receive them too, for sure.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I got, I got told to man up. I had my daughter, I had to teach myself, Jason, how to hold her, how to hug her. Yeah.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Yes. Well, there it is, right? That phrase you just said, man up. What, what does that mean?
Jason Lange: I know.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Toughen up, stop feeling.
Jason Lange: Right.
Host (Notes from the Edge): It's woven right into our culture.
Jason Lange: And disconnect from here now.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Disconnect. Yeah.
Jason Lange: I'm at my neck and I'm pointing to our entire bodies for you listeners. Like, we are taught to disconnect from our entire bodies. And Jason said it, stay up in our heads, which can be scary places sometimes.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Totally.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host (Notes from the Edge): And then we get in, you know, to the school system, you know, the kind of mainstream school system which, which I'm pro education obviously. But when you really think about what school is, essentially it's sit still, pay attention, for you know, six, seven hours a day. Now young bodies particularly I would argue young male bodies, they need to move. They have a lot of kinesthetic energy and it's actually how a lot of boys learn, it's through their bodies, making mistakes, trying things and you know, I got, I have a, almost two year old son and I have a six year old daughter and obviously there's individual differences always, but it's very different. He wants to be outside moving his body, climbing, swinging stuff in a way my daughter never really wanted to. But we get into school where that's, there's not really space for that. Right. I mean the stats on even just PE is like declining, non existent, barely exists anymore.
Jason Lange: And then those poor little boys are sometimes labeled, they're sometimes.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Exactly.
Jason Lange: They're sometimes medicated.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Yes. You can't sit still. Oh, that's because there's something wrong with you. You have adhd, you're a problem kid then. And I'm just going to continue the chain here. We get up to adolescents where the pressure starts to come from our peers. So our bodies are developing at different times. Some kids are hitting puberty, some people aren't. You know, there's in group out, group culture. So suddenly to be safe and fit in, I have to conform, I have to be cool. I have to keep it together. So what's the one thing I don't want to do? I don't want to share vulnerability. I don't want anyone to see me crying. I don't want to get too excited about something. I got to keep it cool.
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Jason Lange: Right.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Just even though I'm terrified inside. Right. Or whatever that might be. And then, you know, we get out into the, the so called workforce which we live in a hyper masculine economy and I would say world where oh wow, wow. Yeah. That guy's so amazing. He works 80 hours a week and he sleeps under his desk. Isn't that fantastic? What does that cost? Cost? Overriding your body, your emotional health, your relationships, it's. It's pathological in a lot of ways. And this culture just kind of starts young and it starts teaching men and not only teaching them, but rewarding men for being out of their bodies, for being disconnected for their bodies and for living up in the head. Right. And then last thing, and then I'll pause. There was, there's a research study they did a couple of years ago that I was like, wow, this really lands it where they asked, this is the interesting thing. They asked both men and women. And so I'm not saying this is the right answer, but this is what our default culture is at. They asked both men and women what marks the change from a girl becoming a woman and a boy becoming a man. And both men and women, when speaking to the girl to woman transition, basically just talked about physiology. Ah, her cycle started, her body changed. She can be a mother now. Right. She's a woman. But for boys to men, it was not based on physiology, it was based on their behavior. How are they showing up in their community, in their family, in their relationships. So you can have a fully grown physical man, but he's still a boy. He's a man child. Right. He's a little. You can again think of all that which is just another example, I would say of kind of this, this man box of behavior and then where it all, you know, to pull it all together and where I was an example of this is so we don't actually know how to connect to ourselves because in the work I do and sounds like you're probably pretty aligned. Emotions start as physical sensations in our bodies. And so if we're not in our bodies feeling, we're not going to be able to connect to our emotional experience, let alone know how to share it in a way that creates connection and intimacy. So most men are just woefully under trained in how to name what's happening internally for them, what to do about it and how to, how to share it relationally. And when we don't have those skills, we do what I did, most of us, which is, wow, I don't feel good inside, I don't know how to talk about it, I don't know how to change it. So I'm going to reach for something outside of me to try to change or numb my inner state. So that could be alcohol, weed. For me it was porn and masturbation. For some people it's overworking. Video games, food, you know, everybody in our culture.
Jason Lange: For me it was the bottle for 20 years.
Host (Notes from the Edge): There you go. Has our thing. But I think for a lot of men, that's what they default to. And so here I am rolling into my, you know, mid-20s, addicted to porn, overweight and totally frozen in terms of how to talk about my inner world and what's even happening to me. Until I got into somatic work and I got into men's groups, which really started to shift things for me.
Jason Lange: Wow, you got into somatic work early if it was in your early 20s. So that was before people were even talking about it because really, when you think about it, it's kind of become mainstream. In the past, say, five years, we've started to see people really start talking about it. So how did you discover it? Was it within a men's group that was supporting you? It was okay.
Host (Notes from the Edge): It was luck, you know, in a
Jason Lange: lot of ways that Farden is joining us and he says very thoughtful conversation. So he's enjoying.
Host (Notes from the Edge): I love it. Yeah. So for me, my, my path started with acknowledging, okay, I don't have a model of how to be. I know how I feel. Day to day does not feel good. So I need something. So I started which back then, you know, this is pre podcast, pre Internet.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Through books in philosophy and trying to understand the mind and whatnot. And that led me on a journey where I, I ended up in kind of a Boulder, Colorado, this like transformational town. And I got lucky because, yeah, back when I got into this in the mid 2000s, if you said men's group, most people would have associated that with an AA recovery group or a church group, some kind of Bible study group, both of which can, you know, have incredible positive impact on men, but a little different than what I got exposed to and needed at the time. And so I got into my first men's group where one, a facilitator, an older male psychotherapist kind of came in and he did his. He was doing leading somatic work. And I had been in talk therapy with another therapist for about a year, year and a half and turns out really sophisticated in terms of my mental protection and how, you know, I could kind of talk about things. I knew how to just, I don't know, in a way, give enough vulnerability to feel like something was happening, but was kind of still stuck after a year and a half. But I got into this group with this, who someone who became my mentor. And we're doing some work and he's doing leading somatic work. And it gets to me and it's my turn. He puts the attention on, he kind of leads me through this process and within 10 minutes I'm on my back on the floor, my hands are shooting up into the air saying, pick me up, pick me up, hold me. And I'm just bawling like a two year old, just my whole body just wailing, releasing a type of grief and snot I didn't even know I had in me. And I stand up from that afterwards and I'm like, what? You know, what just happened? And that was the moment that really started to turn things for me, where in my case, I got to make contact for the first time in my nervous system with a deeply neglected little infant who was just longing to be held and was both wanting it so bad, but also terrified of it because my body didn't know how to receive it. And lo and behold, that little infant was often showing up when I was trying to connect to adult women my age. And it turns out, you know, a young crying baby isn't necessarily what someone wants to date. And once I saw that, it allowed me to feel compassion for myself and make different choices in my behavior. And one of the places I started to get more connection and co regulation was in a men's group. And that actually changed then how I could show up in intimate relationships.
Jason Lange: I love that, I love that and I love what you pointed out. For different people, there's going to be different modalities, you know.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Yes.
Jason Lange: And I think that's a very important distinction and we're a big fan of all modalities in here. If talk therapy is the rite of passage. Go do it for me. It only did so much and then at some point it became kind of not helpful repeating the same stories. So it's just beautiful that you had that wailing snot experience because it sounds like you must have released 20, 30 years of stuff in a short amount of time. Right?
Host (Notes from the Edge): Yeah, yeah. It was done, it moved. And I kind of call it metabolized, like digesting. Right. So. So this is a lot of the work I do now. Right. Is men in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and sometimes beyond. And we have a lifetime of undigested pain and emotional content that's just sitting inside of us. And so it takes time to kind of get in there, but it can move way faster than most people realize. Right. Healing doesn't have to be a 30 year process. You can start.
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah.
Host (Notes from the Edge): You can start to feel different when you're in the right environment and feel safe and can start to move some of this energy faster than you might think. It's not that it's going to be magically fixed in, you know, one weekend.
Jason Lange: Oh, because it's a journey. There is no destination.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Yeah, exactly. But it can move. Meaning when you're out in the world, you start to feel different. You're feeling different things in your body. There's new possibilities. And that was the case for me. And things really shifted there. And then I just got so hooked, you know, on men's work and men's groups. I stayed in for quite a long time until my mid to late 30s when I just, honestly, I wouldn't shut up about it. Kept telling everyone I knew in my life about the group I was in and how much it was helping me. And men started asking me, can we join? And the group I was in at the time was just, you know, Z guys in a in One of our members was a therapist, his office in la. And there just wasn't room to have more people literally in the room. So I started leading groups out of my living room just off meetup.com in like 2017, as a way to kind of give back and create space for other men. And found I just loved it and have kind of been on that train ever since because there's just not a lot of spaces where men get to step in to this kind of deep connection, feeling and honesty in their lives.
Jason Lange: I love that. Talk to me about how important mentorship is. We're a big fan of transformational coaches and mentorship in here and I think everybody needs a mentor from day one, actually.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Yeah.
Jason Lange: How did your mentor change your life or mentors?
Host (Notes from the Edge): It ties right into this kind of lone wolf thing where, you know, the pain of so many men is, well, I'll just figure it out myself. And turns out for a lot of this kind of deep healing, we can't figure it out ourselves. And what I mean by that is we actually need a safe co regulating presence for our nervous system to even get the message, hey, that grief, that shame, that fear, that anger your body has been telling you it's not safe to feel your whole lives. You can feel it now because there's someone with you, you don't have to feel it alone. And obviously I'm most passionate about that in a men's group. But you can get that through coaching, through therapy, through all kinds of, you know, different relationships in that sense. But it goes way faster when you have someone else present with you in it and someone who knows the territory, right, that you're, you're, you're kind of moving through so you don't have to just stumble. And mentorship is an incredibly important part. And, you know, it turns out now I'm actually doing a lot of the work that first male mentor of mine supported me in. But even before I knew I was going to be doing the work, I kind of tell this story somewhat tongue in cheek. I remember being in the room with him, watching him, how he handled the other men, how he breathed, what his presence was, how he related to his wife. When you shop Kroger delivery, proudly serving King Soopers, you can expect the savings you love and fresh groceries delivered right to your door. Our refrigerated trucks keep your items fresh while our associates are committed to getting every detail right. Packing your order with care, because bringing you fresh, quality groceries is what we do best. And right now, enjoy. $20 off your first online order of $75 or more. Restrictions apply. C site for details King Supers Fresh for everyone. And my body had this felt sense of, oh, that's what I want to be when I grow up. And it, at the time, it wasn't his job, it was the way he was being. I hadn't had a map to a masculine presence that was deep, grounded, sharp when it needed to be right, knew how to set boundaries, knew how to direct, but very calm and compassionate at the same time. And that's how I started to learn what it was like. And I think that's one of the really challenging things for men in this culture right now is we don't have models for that. Right? There's A vacuum. You know, we've got 20, 30 years of, you know, kind of sitcom dads. You know, the dad, the man of the house is the butt of the joke. Everyone, you know, makes fun of him. He's da, da, da, da. Or we have examples of, you know, the kind of pathological masculine of the dominator guy who just goes what he wants, harms everyone else. And a lot of guys see that, or have been subject to that emotional, physical abuse or whatever, or just been raised in a culture that's done a great job of pointing out the many challenges men have brought to the table. Me too. And all the stuff that's still coming out of what happens when men who are disconnected from their hearts get into positions of power. So what it leaves a lot of men with is, I don't know, what am I supposed to be right? What's the model? And in that vacuum, we've seen the birth of the kind of manosphere and red pill and these loud voices trying to paint a picture of a type of masculinity that is just no longer relevant to our world. Like, hey, let's rewind the clock 150 years. There's no going back, but there's no one else speaking. So those voices get a lot of attention. And people are young boys in particular at least hear, hey, here's someone talking to me about how hard it is to be a boy and a man right now. And our culture just doesn't create spaces, particularly for young boys to be around. Older, mature, wise men. All the rites of passage and the traditional places that lots of indigenous cultures and other cultures around the world would support that transition are just gone. And so boys are raised by the Internet and porn, essentially. And then we wonder why they're struggling so much in life.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I love the fact that you are creating those spaces. And you said something. It's a word you've brought up three times now, and that is the word compassion or self compassion. Talk to me about how important self compassion is in combating the shame that comes along with some of this.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Yeah. For where I see that, I've felt this the most in my life, and I see it now in many men I work with, is even just around something like, let's say, a goal or a direction. So man has something he wants to do some way he wants to be in life. Often for men, particularly as they age, there's not a lack of knowing. They want something different. They just don't know how to do it. And so they'll set a Goal or I'm going to change or I'm not going to explode around my kids anymore or I'm going to become more vulnerable, whatever. Say they set the goal, but they don't understand how dysregulated they are and what patterns their body mind had to create to survive. Essentially growing up.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host (Notes from the Edge): So when we're young. Right. Nobody lives in a perfect family system. None of us live in a particularly healthy culture these days. And so we develop certain mechanisms and habits of our nervous system to try to stay safe.
Jason Lange: Yep.
Host (Notes from the Edge): And as I tell guys, this is really the kind of crux of it generally what protected us when we were young, it's like a suit of armor we put on to survive that becomes the barrier to the thing we want the most as adults. So we build up this huge protective habit, habitual mechanism of way of being that saves, literally sometimes saves our lives as kids, helps us survive. Then we become adults in a completely different environment and it's still there and it's blocking the type of connection we
Jason Lange: want because it no longer serves us.
Host (Notes from the Edge): It no longer serves us or we're out of the original threatening environment. So self compassion is what I kind of call shadow work, which is coming to understand why we act the way we do. And for a lot of men, that's understanding our family system, our culture, and getting in touch with these long dormant, unfelt emotions that are so painful for our body, they'll unconsciously drive our behavior without us realizing it. So we're so dysregulated, we don't understand why we try to make a change in our life. It doesn't happen. And this is the shame piece for most men, what it then becomes is another reason for us to beat ourselves up. Oh, you can't even do the thing. You can't even work out seven days a week or you can't even da, da, da. And that shame starts to reinforce itself. Men's groups, this kind of work in particular I'm super passionate about is, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's create some space and understand why this all happened. And once you see it, usually compassion starts to flow in of. Oh, no wonder why.
Jason Lange: No wonder. It's that moment of realization.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Yeah. And once there's the. No wonder why there can be some self compassion, because shame in particular. Right. It does not help people grow. There's, you know, some types of healthy shame. But what I'm talking about here is the more toxic shame where instead of, you know, I made mistakes, it's I am the mistake. It's me, it's my identity.
Jason Lange: Oh, my fault.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Yeah. And as we learn to tease that apart, we start to be able to create space for ourselves and relate to ourselves with way more compassion. And this doesn't mean we, you know, play the victim card. Oh, it's not. It's actually where I see the big moment for men right now in particular is that moment of self compassion is where we can begin to take responsibility for our pain. Right. Which is I didn't ask for. The way I was raised, the culture I was raised in, I did not deserve likely the bad things happening to me. But now I am the only one responsible for how I choose to be in the moment. And so I got to take responsibility for. Oh yeah, my habit, literally my habit when I get stressed is I disconnect because that's my safe place.
Jason Lange: Right.
Host (Notes from the Edge): That's how I was raised. Armor up, armor up. I go a little numb. I don't talk to my wife, I don't talk to my friends. That's on me now. Right. That's my pattern that I didn't ask for it, but only I can make a different choice. Right. And that's gotten way easier with the self compassion.
Jason Lange: Well, because it creates awareness. And with awareness change can come. Without the awareness, if we're on autopilot in our survival mechanisms, no change is, is going to happen. So I want to talk about the nice guy because I think people misunderstand this. So what does being the nice guy, when does being the nice guy stop being kindness and become just another survival strategy or role that you're playing and what is the cost of it?
Host (Notes from the Edge): Yeah, it's such a great question because we like to think nice guys are really nice and sometimes they're just not. And I consider myself a nice guy. And there's kind of two places I see nice guy syndrome starting. One is deeply personal at the family system level, which basically just at a young age for whatever reason, often nice guys discover that in order to keep connection alive, they have to prioritize someone else's emotional state. Moms or dads. And so whatever they're feeling inside, they cut that off to become whatever their parent needs in that moment. Essentially for anyone who knows co regulation or attunement, essentially what happens at a very young age is the direction of attunement gets reversed way too fast. So instead of parent attuning to child, this young child is reading their parents nervous system state in deciding how they need to be. Wow. Dad comes from home, from work and he's Often pissed. So I gotta cheer up and try to make him feel better. Right. So that he won't take it out on me or whatever that might be.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host (Notes from the Edge): So there's that and then there's also this newer cultural layer I was talking about, which is for many men, they have been raised by women or now raised in a culture that has spent the last decades, rightly so I'm not saying this is wrong, pointing out the really damaging aspects of masculinity and what men can do. So this is particularly true, I think, for young boys who are raised in a kind of a culture of me too, who are deathly afraid of approaching a woman and making her feel uncomfortable. Right. Because all they've heard is men are pigs. Men have sexual desire, all they want is sex. Like all of this stuff. So there's another version of nice guy that is sometimes related. That is basically all I know is I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be the macho pig. I don't want to be the guy that objective or hurts, objectifies or hurts other women. I don't want to be that. So I am going to cut myself off from my desire, my wants, my boundaries, my no. And essentially what nice guy syndrome is, it's an attempt, right, to be nice. But what you're sniffing out there is really key. Where it's not nice is nice guy syndrome can very insidiously be another form of control. I am going to try to change my behavior so I can control how you respond.
Jason Lange: Yeah, right.
Host (Notes from the Edge): So rather than saying, hey Lisa, I would really like it if you could pick me up on the airport Sunday morning, right? And then you might say, no, I don't want to. I'm busy, I'm exhausted for my kid. And then I'm like, oh, okay, I'm just going to try to do a lot of really nice stuff for you. Right. I'm not going to directly ask. I'm going to always pick you up from the airport whenever you need, anytime you need anything. Oh, I can help. I can do that. And this is the thing that nice guys are actually often doing without realizing it, is they're attempting to control or manipulate from like a one down position of whatever you need is more important.
Jason Lange: That's very costly, very costly.
Host (Notes from the Edge): In hopes that you'll give me what I want back. But the challenge, right, the real cost is nice guys continually abandon themselves. So what I'm doing is I'm abandoning my feelings, my needs, my desires, my boundaries in hopes of keeping the connection alive and pleasing and appeasing. Whatever person I'm with and what I
Jason Lange: say, it's not really real.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Then it's not real. It's not authentic, and it's not trustable. This is the other thing, right? Because how could you ever trust me if I say yes to something in our relationship if you've never had the experience that I can say no?
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Oh, is he. Is he just saying this because he doesn't want to hurt my feelings or get his feelings hurt or he's afraid of conflict?
Jason Lange: Then everybody's confused.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Everybody's confused. And oftentimes there's a lot of frustration because for the nice guy, he's frustrated he's not getting any of his needs met. He feels like he's doing everything. And other people are frustrated because they're like, whoa, wait, you're getting mad at me. I can feel your resentment building. You're getting mad at me for a contract I never agreed to. I never agreed that if you do all this stuff for me, I'm going to do this back for you because you never asked. That doesn't feel fair to me. Right? So it gets pretty uncomfortable for both sides, long term.
Jason Lange: Jason, talk to me, because I can tell you have become transformed into a person that is very good at asking for your. Your wants, needs, and values to be met. Why is it so uncomfortable for us to say, this is what I need for both men and women? Why is it so uncomfortable for us at first to go, this is what I want? And then we can get a no. And we have to honor the no, because if we're setting boundaries, we need to respect their boundaries too. But why is it so difficult for us to ask for what we want?
Host (Notes from the Edge): And Doug, what a horrible call. Hey, ref. Open your eyes, ref. You're really not gonna call that.
Jason Lange: Come on.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Hey, ref, why didn't you customize your car insurance with Liberty Mutual and save money? I don't think you get what we're doing. Sure I do. We're all just giving him advice. You guys on sports, me on saving money. Nope, that's not it. Only pay for what you [email protected] Liberty.
Jason Lange: Liberty.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Liberty. Liberty.
Jason Lange: This is a paid message from GoFundMe. Meet Juan Naula. When his son was hospitalized for a viral infection, Juan started a GoFundMe to pay for medical expenses.
Host (Notes from the Edge): It was 5k to pay the bill for my son, and I need only 22 hours. It was amazing. People really trust on GoFundMe.
Jason Lange: How did Juan raise $5,000 in less than a day. He posted a short video on GoFundMe telling his story in 30 seconds.
Host (Notes from the Edge): 30 seconds. Be specific, be quick and tell what are you going to be using the funds for? I was nervous to do it because it doesn't feel okay to ask money. But you shouldn't be nervous. Sometimes you just have to do it and see the results. We were able to save my son's life thanks to gofundme that we still have my son with us.
Jason Lange: Start your GoFundMe today at gofundme.com that's gofundme.com gofundme.com this message reflects one person's
Host (Notes from the Edge): experience out here in Colorado. Every road leads to something worth discovering. Whether chasing sunshine over the mountains, heading into the Rockies, or simply enjoying the drive, Subaru is built for every mile of the journey. At Valley Subaru in Longmont, you'll find a team that loves adventure like you, with a great selection of new Subaru models for a limited time. Mention this podcast and receive seven free oil changes. When you purchase or lease a new Subaru at Valley Subaru, you'll love the drive, love your deal. Visit Valley Subaru in Longmont [email protected] vulnerability, I would say, is directly asking for what we done or stating what we're feeling or needing is almost always more vulnerable. I literally catch this in the work I do in men's groups, right, where I have men check in and, you know, I invite anyone listening to run this experiment and just notice it's very common in our culture for people to talk in second person. You know, have you ever had, just had one of those days, you know, where you're just not really feeling good or you're feeling a little alone or, you know, so it's like I'm talking about someone else. We do this all the time. I do it sometimes, too, versus the first person, which is more ownership. I'm having one of those days where I just don't feel good and I feel like everyone else is taking advantage of me, right? The more we own a want or a desire or feeling, often the closer to our heart and experience it is. And the more we're kind of opening ourselves up for rejection, for judgment, for conflict and to have the no come back to us. And for a lot of nice guys, woven right in certainly was for me into it is a deep fear of conflict and the loss of connection that might come from, well, if I ask you for something and you want something else, what happens? And so Learning that, hey, just because I ask for what I want doesn't mean I always get what I want. And often there's negotiation and having to meet in the middle. But that vulnerability is really intense for a lot of people. Right? Putting myself out there in a direct way opens me up for direct conflict, rejection, and, yeah, even judgment.
Jason Lange: Talk to me about a relationship where you've got two people, male and female, that are really good at articulating their wants and needs so they can sit across from one another and lovingly but directly say, this is what I want. Can you give it to me? Here's the thing that I've discovered too, Jason. The people that are in your life the handful. You usually get a handful of people that love, support, and value you. They want to be there to help fulfill your wants and needs, but you've got to be able to articulate it. So talk to me about how the relationship is different when people are very good, good at talking about their wants and needs and trying to meet each other in the middle around them. Talk to me about that bond.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Yeah, I mean, the thing I've experienced the most in, I've witnessed in, in men I work with in those kind of relationships is it leads to much more intimacy. So intimacy in the sense of just actually knowing you and what you want and what your desires are and you knowing me and what my wants and what my desires are. So even though it can create friction in the sense of, well, what happens when those things don't align, it tends to actually create more closeness simultaneously. Because then I'm not guessing what your inner world is. I actually know your inner world. And what I tend to see over time is it creates more connection, closeness, and in particular, authenticity, which, there you go, then relaxes each other because the, the great kind of mistakes so many. I work with a lot of guys kind of in the more early relationship dating realm make is the, the, the kind of fallacy I, I see of, okay, I met someone who I like, I want them to like me. So I, this is nice guy in another way. I'm going to try to figure out what they like so I can be that, so they'll like me, so we can get into a relationship, create some secure connection, and then I can start to reveal my authentic self because I know they're with me. The challenge with that is, and I've worked with guys who have been in marriages for 20, 30, 40 years, finally get to the point where they start being authentic. What they discover is, oh, we're not
Jason Lange: a Fit, we're not compatible.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Our authenticity is not actually a fit and there's can be a lot of pain in that. And so the, the, the alternative path is kind of leading with that authenticity particularly early in a relationship can get men more rejections quickly, so to speak. But well then when they do meet someone who's a yes, guess what? They're a yes to the deepest part of you. And there's no pretending, it's easier, there's no performing, there's no having to calculate in over time. You can build that even in a long term relationship by starting to bring this truth and honesty forward over and over. And it just gets more relaxing because there's so much less you're guessing about each other.
Jason Lange: You get to just be you.
Host (Notes from the Edge): You get to just be you. So much more than that. You get to then start to in a way collaborate on of like oh hey, I hear that desire and actually here's my boundary. So what about if we tried this? You know, you'll get a little bit of what you want, I'll get a little bit and it becomes co creative. Right. In a sense, how do we make it win for both of us? And it's just a very different way of being. And for men in particular, you know, to trace it back to our early conversation, so many guys have a hard time with that because they don't know what they're feeling, they don't know what they're desiring. They, they keep it all locked in inside. And then their partners are like, you got to give me something here. I don't, I hear this all the time.
Jason Lange: Right.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Partners of men I work with, you know, some of the most common feedback they get is I can't feel you, what do you want? Right. And that actually creates tension, not of the good kind when we don't know. And what you're talking about this freer way of connecting, of being authentic and bringing things forward. Yeah. It can be vulnerable, it can create a lot of uncertainty. It also an intimate relationship ends up creating a lot more erotic energy too. When we actually get to feel our partner's deepest wants, sexual or not, and we get to share our deepest one, sexual or not. It creates an energetic of wow, this person just revealed something really special to me. Right. That maybe not everyone else out there knows and that often once pulls us together.
Jason Lange: Well, and you're talking about the different layers of intimacy, not just sexual intimacy, but emotional intimacy and really knowing somebody and just getting to just be you. And even if you're in an Intimate partnership, liking that person. But here's the key that you highlighted. You have to know who you are. You have to know your wants and desires in order to articulate them. So that is definitively going to be step one. So for our listeners out there who may be struggling right now or are feeling very lonely or want intimacy and don't know how to get it in healthy ways, how can they find you and the groups you work with?
Host (Notes from the Edge): Yeah, easiest way to keep up with me is go to my website. You can go to Evolutionary men, so it's not.combut.men. and on there you'll see I have a podcast about men's groups. I have writings, blogs, programs, and for men in particular, I have a super fun, free quiz you can do at Evolutionary Men Quiz that will show you two things. What I call your edge as a man. Your edge, meaning your greatest gift, something you're just really good at, but that always right next door to our edge is our deepest blind spot. The thing we're not seeing that's often limiting us from getting the thing we want. And just having that map can really open a lot of men up. And then from there, guess where you can learn how to feel, what you're feeling, how to share it. You get into community with other men who help you get to build more intimacy with you, which then you can bring back into your intimate relationships with your partners.
Jason Lange: That's so beautiful. Adison. Make sure we have the link not only to your website, but directly to the quiz and friends out there. If you take the quiz and you get stuck, but be sure to reach out to Jason at the website. Jason, beautiful conversation. Thank you for the work that you're doing. I think it is so important because if, if we all do this growth work together, it's like, yeah, my husband and I, we have eight years of sobriety together. But in order to achieve that, I have to do my work solo, he has to do his work solo, and then we meet in the middle. So it is. Yeah, it's. But it. It's a night and day difference than how I used to relate. We'll just put it that way. So, guys, find the quiz. Take it. If you get stuck, reach out to Jason. If you're out there and you're feeling lonely and you're. You're wanting something deeper. Look, we're all hungry now for human connection, the real kind of. And he's got it for you, and he's got some answers for you. So be sure to reach out. All right, Jason, before we let all of our guests go, we ask two questions. Are you ready for them?
Host (Notes from the Edge): I'm ready.
Jason Lange: All right, the first question is this. In your own life, what did you perform in order to survive? And what did dropping that role, mask, or performance do for your life?
Host (Notes from the Edge): Yeah, I performed being okay. I was the guy that was always just, I'm fine. I'm okay. And what I got dropping that, what I've been getting is the things we've been talking about. Much more deep connection, intimacy, authenticity, and a far less braced nervous system just actually revealing. Hey, sometimes I need help.
Jason Lange: I love that. All right, my friend, what do you want us to be talking more about? Second question. What conversations do we need to be having that we're not having?
Host (Notes from the Edge): Yeah, I would say. I mean, my guess is you're probably having it, but just a simple thing. It's not easy for either side right now. Right. The culture wants us to kind of get in this war between men and women. And the frank truth is we're all being asked to grow, and it's really hard for everyone, I would argue right now, as the old ways of being just are not sufficient. And we're all having to discover new ways to be in relationship with each other that honor ourselves and honor each other. And so I get excited, certainly, about the conversations like this that kind of go beyond the division and talk about, hey, we all need some help here.
Jason Lange: Yeah, how can we connect more? I love that. And, guys, find a mentor. Have some mentorship. It's so valuable, and sometimes we can't see, but someone else can offer us a new perspective that can change our entire world. So. All right, my friends out there, I'm going to ask you guys the same question. What are you performing in order to survive? And what might setting that role, mask, or performance down do to. To lighten your load just a little bit? I am your host, Lisa Lacey, here with our wonderful guest, Jason Lange. And when you find the answer to that, we will both see you at the edge. Jason, thank you so much.
Host (Notes from the Edge): Thanks for having me. Out here in Colorado, every road leads to something worth discovering. Whether chasing sunshine over the mountains heading into the Rockies, or. Or simply enjoying the drive Subaru is built for every mile of the journey. At Valley Subaru in Longmont, you'll find a team that loves adventure like you, with a great selection of new Subaru models for a limited time. Mention this podcast and receive seven free oil changes. When you purchase or lease a new Subaru at Valley Subaru, you'll love the drive. Love your deal, Visit Valley Subaru in Longmont or at valleysubaru.com when you shop Kroger Delivery, proudly serving King Soopers, you can expect the savings you love and fresh groceries delivered right to your door. Our refrigerated trucks keep your items fresh while our associates are committed to getting every detail right. Packing your order with care because bringing you fresh, quality groceries is what we do best. And right now, enjoy. $20 off your first online order of $75 or more. Restrictions apply. See site for details.
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