There's a study that asked people, across cultures, what actually marks the moment a boy becomes a man. For girls, the answer was simple, her body matures, she can have kids, she's a woman. For boys, it had nothing to do with the body. It was about behavior. How he shows up, what he proves. That gap is basically the whole conversation I had with Sarah on this episode, and it's the reason so many of us grow up believing that what's happening inside us doesn't matter.
I opened up about my own road into this work, how disconnected I was from my body and my feelings as a teenager, how anxious I'd get just trying to connect with other people, and how much I numbed out to food, porn, video games, anything to not feel it. Stumbling into my first men's group changed the whole trajectory of my life, and that thread is what we pulled on for twenty five minutes.
We got into the man box, that invisible list of rules that says be tough, don't cry, never ask for help, and what it actually costs a man to keep living inside it. We talked about why so many men feel lonely even surrounded by friends, because most male friendships stay at the surface, sports and business and goals, never what's really going on underneath. I laid out what I consider the three steps to healthy masculine presence, grounded in the body, open in the heart, focused on what matters. And we got into what women actually want from a man in relationship, which usually isn't fixing anything, it's presence.
If there's one thing I hope lands from this conversation, it's that asking for help was never the weak move. It was always the strong one.
Where in your life are you still trying to prove you don't need anybody?
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Sarah Lee: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Conversation with Sira Lee, where we explore conversations that inspire personal growth, healthier relationship, and meaningful change. Today's guest is Jason Lounge, a men's embodiment coach, group facilitator, and evolutionary guide who helps men develop deeper clarity, purpose, self awareness, and healthier relationship. Jason has spent more than 20 years exploring men's work and believes strongly in the power of men's group to create growth, connection, and support. So once again, Jason, welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to have you here with us.
Jason Lange: Yeah, thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.
Sarah Lee: Thank you so much for that, Jason. So, yeah, some interview questions I'll be asking you. And my first question was like this. So, Jason, what has led you into men's work?
Jason Lange: Yeah, my journey into men's work was really my own journey of growth and healing. So really started for me as a. As a teenager, as I started to grow up and became interested in getting into relationships and discovered I didn't really know how to do it. I didn't know how to connect. I was very disconnected from myself, my body, my feelings. And in particular, I got very anxious and uncomfortable trying to connect with other people, both men and friends, and then in my case, women that I was attracted to. And I just didn't know really how to initiate conversation or feel good in my body. And it was so painful. I was kind of depressed and anxious and often numbed out to food and pornography and video games. And after a period of time, just realized, wow, this is not how I want to live. There's got to be a better way. And that journey, thankfully, I kind of stumbled by luck into my first men's group, which then initiated me into the whole world of men's work, which is just this process of how us men can grow and heal and particularly do so in community.
Sarah Lee: So you experienced loneliness and struggled with relationship when you were younger. So how did that shape the work you do today?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think I experienced firsthand what a lot of men experience these days and why a lot of men end up coming to me and the work I do in changes in our structures of our societies and work from home and spending more time online and the Internet. More and more men report feeling lonely. Right. Which is they have very few close friends. Doesn't even always mean they have no friends. Oftentimes it just means that even with the friendships they do have. Typical default men's culture is we just stay at the surface. We don't talk about what's going on inside. We talk about sports or things or goals or business. And so we can spend a lot of time with other men, but actually feel quite lonely inside because other men don't actually know what's really happening for us and us for them. So many men that show up, to me, they feel lonely, right? Either they've never gotten into the kind of relationship and partnership they've wanted, or sometimes they have, but then their life has become just kids, work, and family, and they lose touch with all the connections they had made earlier in their life. And life just becomes this kind of burden and grind of trying to survive. So, so many men come to me wanting to feel more alive and more connected. And men's groups and men's work are one of the fastest ways I've found to do that.
Sarah Lee: So what is a men's group? And why do you believe every man can benefit from being part of one?
Jason Lange: Yeah, a men's group's basically just a collection of men that gather at a either weekly or every other week, sometimes monthly cadence, with the intention of really dropping in and getting real with each other and talking about what's happening in their lives. So this is not just socializing and hanging out and kind of shooting the shit, as we would say, but it's structured and it has purpose, which is, hey, we're each going to take an opportunity to share what we're experiencing in our lives right now, including what's not working and what hurts, what we're trying to move toward and build in our lives. And in the process, we get to hear what the other men in the group encircle, how they're navigating those things as well. And what that allows for is two things that really change men's lives. It allows for support, Literally just getting support, being heard when life isn't going so well, or they're overwhelmed or they're stressed out. A thing that very few men feel like they have a place to do. And it gives us a place to get feedback and to get accountability and sometimes, yes, even challenge in our lives about how we're showing up in the lives we're wanting to create. So if we're kind of off course or we feel really stuck in something, other men who love and care for us can name it and help us come up with a plan to try something else in our lives. And, you know, inside of all of this is just the very simple experience that men's group can be so great at, which is slowing men down to actually get connected to themselves. And what they're feeling. So first we get clear on what we're feeling in our bodies, then our emotions in our hearts. And from. From there, it's much easier to make very clear and straightforward plans about the changes we need to make in our life so we can start having different experiences.
Sarah Lee: So what is the man birth and how can it affect the way men live and read to others?
Jason Lange: Yeah, so the man box is basically this idea that so much of what. How our modern cultures work is. We have this idea of what manhood is. And the man box is essentially, you can imagine, like a box on a piece of paper. And inside of it are all these different attributes that as long as you embody them or check the box of them, you're considered a man. And if you don't, you're not considered a man. And so it pretty strongly limits and stricts and constricts a man's behavior. The biggest one, really, that kind of supersedes all the other things inside that box is be invulnerable, be tough, don't show weakness, never ask for help, don't cry, don't have emotions. These are really key things that so much of our culture kind of forces us to believe as men, don't get too close to other men. If sex is available to you, you should take it. If you can't get sex, there's something wrong with you. And all of this basically builds and constructs these kind of artificial identities that men are expected to adhere to. And if they don't, you know, they're considered boys or man child or all the different slurs we could think about that our culture tends to call men. And the interesting thing is there's some actual research that backs this up, right? There's this one amazing research study from a couple years ago where they interviewed both men and women. So this is what's interesting. And they asked them two questions. What marks the transition of a girl becoming a woman and a boy becoming a man in both men and women? I'm not saying this is the right answer, but this is where culture is at. When it came to girls becoming women, they basically just named physiological changes. So changes in her body, she physically matured, right? She's able to have her cycle, she's able to rear kids, She's a woman now. But when it came to boys, to men, it was not based on their physical maturity. A boy could be fully mature in his body, right, Having completed his development in puberty, but still not be considered a man. And instead, what marked that transition was the boy's behavior, how he's showing up in his family, his community, his culture. And that all leads right into off in the man box. And so it's this basically pressure that, you know, women feel a version of it, their own version, but this is the pressure men feel about how they're supposed to behave. And it's part of why so many men are raised and normalized, just keeping everything inside, never talking about their feelings, never crying, never asking for help, not knowing how to deal with their fear or shame or whatever that might be, which then leads to so many of the challenges men I work with have later in life.
Sarah Lee: So what does healthy masculinity looks like to you?
Jason Lange: Yeah, so, you know, such a popular question these days. And more and more, what I consider healthy masculinity is a masculinity that's just deeply aware in that by being present, it creates more safety for everyone around it. Just very simple. Just when healthy, masculine is present, everybody feels more relaxed, grounded, and safe. So how do we do that as men is kind of broken down into what I call three steps. And the first step is it's very simple, but it's just learning to be grounded in our bodies. So this just means in the moment, we're actually connected to our bodies. We feel connected to the ground, the earth below us, and we're conscious of our breath. That's it. And from there, once we're grounded in our bodies, the practice is then to learn to open our hearts. So this is the part of us that can feel what's happening emotionally inside of ourselves and can feel and attune to what's happening to everyone and everything around us. So we're able to give and receive feedback when our heart is open. And then the last step is once we're grounded in our bodies and we're open in our hearts, it's the capacity to be able to focus on what matters most in any given moment. So to actually have the ability to keep our attention where we want it in the moment and not be lost in endless thoughts or distractions or worries, but instead have an orientation of, wow, there's my attention could be anywhere right now, but I'm going to put it here because I think that is what is going to serve the most in this moment. And when a man can do all three, be grounded in his body, open in his heart, and aware of what matters most, he can create that deep masculine presence and create that sense of safety for everyone around him.
Sarah Lee: So why do some men struggle to express their emotions and ask for support. Yeah.
Jason Lange: And we kind of started the story already in that a lot of it comes from cultural pressure of, you know, what it means to be a man. And this starts very young across most cultures, all the way down to boyhood. Right. There's lots of research about how boys and girls are often parented differently. It's thankfully starting to change, but it is still quite common. Right. A little girl falls down, gets hurt. Parents come in, get close to her, make bodily contact, attune to her, hey, that must have really hurt. I'm so sorry. I'm here with you. It's going to be okay. It's okay to cry. Little boy falls down. Oftentimes the response is not the same. It's, oh, you're fine, you're okay, get back up, you're tough. Just get back out there.
Sarah Lee: Right.
Jason Lange: And what this does from an early age is it teaches boys that what's happening in their bodies, what they're feeling doesn't matter. Just override it with your head. And then boys start to grow up. And, you know, I'm certainly pro education, but the way most schooling is done around the world is everybody get in a room, sit still and pay attention. And turns out little male bodies need to move. They have a lot of energy and part of how they learn is through bodily kinesthetic movement and exploring their environments. But in the school system, that doesn't really work. So for many boys, they're taught, yeah, sit still, don't move. That urge to move in your body, that's a problem. Override it with your head. And if you do it too much, there's something wrong with you, you're a trouble child and you might have ADHD or we might have to get you onto some kind of meds. Then we become adolescents and teenagers where that pressure starts to come from. Our peers, our bodies are all developing at a different rate. Suddenly there's competition for intimacy and attraction and members of the opposite sex for many people or members of the same sex for others. And there's in group out, group culture. And what we quickly learn is keep it all inside. Because anything I bring out that might be vulnerable is going to be ammo for other men to potentially bully, ostracize, or hurt me. And then we get out into the workforce and you know, the way our planet is pretty hyper masculine in terms of its work orientation now. It's what do we reward men for? Oh my God, he works 80 hours a week, he sleeps under his desk, like, wow, what A hard working man. And the truth is to do that, a man has to override what's happening in his body, what's happening in his heart. And so this starts from an early age. And then we still live in a pretty intense, you know, overall culture of homophobia for men where they're afraid if I get too close to another man, that might mean I'm, I'm gay. And for many people that's still a problem, unfortunately. And that has the consequence of keeping men away from each other in terms of connection, support, etc. So all these pressures kind of go together and then we have this, yeah, man box representation of. Well, to be a man means to be a tough, means to never show weakness, means to pick yourself up by your bootstraps and never need any help. And so the combined effect of this is men just keep it all inside. And that emotional pain, that struggle, that stress, more than anything else, it has serious consequences for men as they continue to age.
Sarah Lee: So what do you believe women often need for men that men may not fully understand?
Jason Lange: Yeah, this is, you know, I mentioned this word already and probably the number one thing in all the work I've discovered is just presence. The capacity for a man to actually be present in the moment and with her not distracted by other things and not trying to fix her. Oftentimes women have things they need to express. And for us men, if anything they're trying to express or feel is a little uncomfortable, right? If they're a little mad or sad or cranky or, you know, whatever that is, all these normal feelings, us men often want to try to fix and change that. We want to get them out of their discomfort. That's often not what women want. They actually just want a man to be present and connected to them in the experience they're having. And for a lot of men, it's pretty counterintuitive. Well, shouldn't I, you know, try to convince her she shouldn't be feeling that or explain why it's not a big deal or whatever that might be. But oftentimes that's not it. Instead we just need to be there, be present, pay attention, and be willing to guide her in ways not because we want to control her, but because we want her to feel good and take the initiative in, you know, particularly in modern dating and relationships, to not be afraid to, you know, make a plan and share the plan with her. Hey, I was thinking we could do this or we could do this and then very importantly then invite her in and ask her and how does that feel for you and that initiation, plus that deep presence is actually shockingly rare for so many men these days, who are often distracted, ruminating, or trying to perform some way they think a man should be. That often women aren't really looking for.
Sarah Lee: So what is one or healthy belief about being a man that you would like to see men let go of?
Jason Lange: It's okay to ask for help. So simple. Yeah. Not knowing how to do something, struggling in something, and calling in support and saying, hey, I need some help here. That is not weakness. In fact, men who learn to do that become far more effective in life. Realizing we don't have to do everything alone and figure it all out by ourselves allows us to leverage our communities, our networks, our friends to help us get more of what we want in our lives. And I'm someone who used to be terrified of admitting I was struggling or needing help. And I would stew or get stuck on things for days, weeks, sometimes even months. And as I've learned to ask for help, turns out sometimes people can really help me with the actual task I have at hand. Like, oh, hey, you just actually need to do this. And I'm like, great. Other times they might not be able to actually solve the problem for me, but they are able to give me their connection, their presence and their care, which in itself can give me more energy and help me regulate my nervous system, which allows me to keep taking on that task or challenge. You know, if human connection, just the sense of being known, felt and seen and understood and feeling, seeing and knowing and understanding someone else was a pill people could take, they would be buying it like gangbusters. It does so much for us. Our energy, our hormones, our heart rate, all of it is right there. CO regulation is one of the most important medicines we have. And it's free.
Sarah Lee: Right?
Jason Lange: It's just connection, but we have to learn to ask for it as men.
Sarah Lee: Thank you so much for that, Jason. Yes, the last question of the interview. So for a man who feels disconnected, lonely, or unsure of his purpose, what is the first step you would encourage him to take?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say it's to reach out. It's very simple. And find some male community in your life and realize all the other men and people you think have it totally figured out. Guess what? They have challenges, too. Because of the man box. They might not admit it, but I guarantee when you get men in a room, in something like a men's group, and you create the structure where men can actually talk about what's happening inside, even the guys, you think have the perfect life, the perfect job, the perfect relationship, they have challenges. And when we start to be in a space where everyone can admit that, all the men relax and feel a little better and instead of carrying around this deep inner shame, start to feel a lot more comfort and trust that, hey, maybe I can figure this all out. And like I said, if connection was a pill we could take, everybody would be taking it. But real connection in the world requires being vulnerable, requires revealing parts of ourselves to other people because that's literally what they connect to. We're just talking about stuff out there that's not memorable, that doesn't feel connecting. So if you're feeling stuck alone, not sure where to go in life, it's reach out, get some help. And you know, it's something I really love supporting men in doing.
Sarah Lee: Thank you so much for that great message, Jason. I really do appreciate it. So yeah, comes the end of for our interview, Jason, thank you so much for sharing your experiences and perspective on men's growth, masculinity, relationship and the most importance of genu connection. Your insight is giving us a deeper look at what it means for men to become more self aware, connected and internationally in the way they live. And also thanks to everyone listening. And if you enjoy today's episode, be sure to subscribe, share this conversation with someone who could benefit from it and join us next time from the inspiring episode of Conversation with Sarah Lee. So Jason, before we go, can you please tell the audience or the listener so they can get access to your work?
Jason Lange: Thank you so much. Yeah, you can follow me and all my stuff at Evolutionary Men and there's even a free quiz on there. You can just go to Evolutionary Men quiz to learn about yourself as a man and what your gifts and strengths are and what your challenges in life might really be.
Sarah Lee: Thank you so much for that, J.C. and again, thanks for joining us on today's episode. I'm so grateful.
Jason Lange: Thank you,
Sarah Lee: Sergio.
