There's a moment in this conversation I still think about: a guy in one of my groups finally admits, out loud, that there was a stretch of his life where part of him thought about just checking out. Another man in the circle doesn't try to fix it. He just turns to him and says, "I get it. I've been there." No advice, no plan, just presence. That moment is basically the whole episode in miniature.
We got into why so many men are walking around with pain histories nobody ever gave them language for, including sexual abuse some guys don't even recognize as that until years later, once they start actually living in their bodies instead of just their heads. I talked about how the patriarchy trains that out of boys early, stop crying, get back up, sit still, pay attention, until we're fully disconnected from the sensations that would otherwise tell us what we're feeling. We talked about how physical intimacy and emotional intimacy get smuggled together for men, so touch and connection and sex all collapse into the one channel our culture says is acceptable. And I got honest about my own go to move for years, which was lawyering up the second my wife felt something hard, trying to argue her out of it instead of just being with her in it.
The thread underneath all of it is the same one I keep coming back to in my work. Healthy men make everyone around them more free, not because we've got it all figured out, but because we've stopped outsourcing our pain and started taking responsibility for it, the parts we caused and the parts we never asked for.
Where in your own life are you managing a feeling instead of actually letting yourself feel it?
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Host (More Than Sex and Secrets): Men are abused too. And today's show is for the man in your life that is working to reclaim their intimacy with their woman, their partner and was abused. So welcome to this episode of More Than Sex and Secrets with my guest, Jason. You've made it and I'm so excited that you are here for More Than Sex and Secrets, the show where survivors become soul led leaders and our hardest truths become our greatest gifts. Hey, I'm your host, Dr. Lashan Tika, the founder of your own university, where we help our members leave the past in the past and create lives they love. Including our master Trauma Informed certification programs for yogis, body workers, coaches and healers. All based on identity reprogramming and soul psychology methods. I've walked the path out of generational trauma, through the chaos of CPTSD and disassociation to healthy, peaceful and a soul led purposeful Life. And since 2005, I have helped others just like you put themselves back together, stand in confidence and live in your value from the bank to the bedroom. So this podcast isn't surface level healing. We go deep into childhood wounds including sexuality, religious abuse, self worth, intimacy, purpose and the power of soul alignment. Taking our listeners out of object identity and into their truth, joy and purpose is what we are all about. This is the space where we say what's being unsaid, where the shame dissolves and the truth sets us free. If you're ready to reclaim your identity, share your truth and lead others through their healing while being supported yourself, you are in the right place. And when you subscribe and let us know with those five star reviews what you think about this podcast, even share it with a friend, guess what? You become a part of a family standing together, ending generational cycles and creating their best life. And we are so happy that you're here. This is more than sex and secrets. Let's get to the show. So, Jason Lange, welcome to More than Sex and Secrets. It's so great to speak to a dude, right? We just don't get to talk to so many dudes and I know that there's a lot of men out there that have been abused which are is the focus of our page and need that support to come back into what is a true intimate relationship. What does that consistent consist of and everything. So I'm really excited for this conversation. Would you mind just introducing yourself to our audience and just explaining like what you think is important for them to know as we just gently enter into this 30 minute combo?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I'm a men's coach. Men's guide, men's group facilitator. I'm a father and I'm a husband to. My wife is a survivor of sexual abuse. And I'm a so called recovering nice guy, which a lot of guys I work with are. And I've just been in the men's workspace now for, you know, almost 25 years. Nice. Primarily initially just for my own healing. And then I was in it so long that I eventually was like, I want to give back to other guys. Because this is really some of the only work that really moved the needle for me in lots of ways. And if there's, you know, a couple things I would say I'd want to highlight is that despite a lot of the misconceptions, there are a lot of men really trying hard out there right now to become whole, complete versions of themselves that can show up lovingly in relationships, families and communities. And many, many more men than even I realized are struggling for all kinds of reasons, one of which is, yeah, many, many actually have had some kind of sexual abuse that they could never talk about. Or sometimes in their mind, for many, many years, they weren't even sure if it was sexual abuse. And then it's only actually getting in the safe container with particularly, I think, other men that sometimes disclose on their own that these things start to come forward and the pieces start to come together. So I'm just an incredibly huge advocate for supporting men right now. And, you know, the main reason for that is I think healthy men help everyone. Yeah, the more absolutely healthy men there are in the world, the more women get to thrive, the more kids get to thrive, the more the environment gets to thrive and the more other men get to thrive.
Host (More Than Sex and Secrets): Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's a conversation that we definitely need, need to have and need to have more of. You said something, though, that my two things that I think would really enter in, and one is that many men want to be whole and be good partners and not be what the media and the world is kind of outlining. All men are, right? Not all men, but all men. And so how. How would you say, okay, this is how you'd recognize a man that is doing the work?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, what it really comes down to, to me, and a lot of the work I care about now is very simply, it's a man who's willing to take responsibility for his pain. So that's the pain that sometimes he never asked for in terms of how he was raised or the culture or the religion he was part of. That's sometimes the pain he's caused others because of his lack of training or skills or awareness. And so it's just a. It's a real radical kind of experience of, you know what? Some of this I caused, some of it I didn't ask for. But guess what? Nobody. Nobody can handle it now other than me taking responsibility for it. And I see more and more men willing to step into that, and often quite vulnerably, because they're like, I don't know what to do. Nobody's shown me, trained me. All I know is the way I'm being in the world and the way I see most men being is not working.
Host (More Than Sex and Secrets): Yeah. The next thing that you said that made me go is that a lot of men have been abused but didn't recognize it. And I think women, too, like, we're just starting to recognize, and especially for children, if you're raised in it and it was normalized, it's normal. It's not recognized. And yet it still affects our nervous system, it still affects our hormones, it still affects our mentality and our perception of life negatively or morphed at the very least, even if it's done in a way that's normalized. Right. So when people say, I just want to be normal, I often say, well, what is normal? Because normal to me was screaming and yelling. Normal to me was criticism. Normal to me was, you do what I say, not what I do. Right. So, like, that's not healthy. Right. We want to be healthy. So normal isn't always healthy, but it's always normal. So we explained just a couple things, like maybe a woman listening can be like, maybe I should explain this to my husband or my boyfriend or my son of what that looks like that you've noticed your clients and your community saying, well, I didn't even know that that was abuse, or I didn't even know that I was hurt.
Jason Lange: Yeah, for some, you know, obviously it's a whole range, but for some guys, it is. The more, I guess you could say stereotypical or like, I. It actually, I didn't know. Like, it wasn't until I started getting into my body that certain images, smells, sensations, and flashes of memory started coming back. That's actually fairly common for guys that, you know, we can get into. I think that's one of the byproducts of the kind of default culture for men and the patriarchy of stuff it all down, stuff everything down. You're only a man if you're tough and invulnerable. And so From a young age, guys just learn to bury it, numb it out, you know. And so many men I work with, one of the big things I do is just embodiment work, right? Like the actual experience of coming in to your body and learning to pay attention to it, which then, lo and behold, starts to also connect men more to their emotional body. And then things start to kind of come back, you know, particularly in some of the shadow work I do. And then, you know, there's definitely this other group of men I, I've worked with that it's actually, it's more this like feeling of confusion. And I think this also relates to a lot of default masculine culture, which is so, I mean, still to a shocking degree. I mean, right, we're recording this in 2026, pretty homophobic. And so some of these guys will have experiences with other men or boys kind of at a young age that are very confusing to them because it's maybe a slightly older boy or a neighbor boy and there's some pleasure involved, but there's some real discomfort too. And it's like all their wires get crossed and they kind of just don't look at it until like we said, they start to get into their bodies and into a safe place and then some pieces start to fall together in terms of their experience. So, you know, it's really out there, I would say. And I think the struggle is, I think men are just so much more button lipped right around all of this stuff that it's pretty rare for men to find spaces where they can begin to talk about it, where they don't feel some kind of immense shame.
Host (More Than Sex and Secrets): And I think there needs to be a healthy collective shame for men in order for us to move forward. And for some women too. But a lot of the women that are more abusive or get into that tendency are doing it from a masculine, control based, patriarchal place. And they feel safe in that space and you know, because they're protected by the patriarchy in that space. And we're all kind of realizing that we are not the patriarchy, male or female. And it's not really safe for any of us in, in the long run. It's been very, you know, a control factor. So let's talk about intimacy because for me, intimacy is both sexual, obviously, and emotional and trusting and communicating. But when I really started working with people around intimacy and sex in general and healing from sexual abuse, what I figured out first and foremost is I had no in to me to see. And so that's why my book's coming out into me. See into me. See, that was a program I created before called Amazing you really about finding yourself. So what do you see intimacy as, like the leading factor for many men I know in my couples therapy, a lot of the men want to lead with the physical and the women want to lead with the emotional. And one leads to the other, obviously. But is there a deeper sense that I might not know about not working with men that you can share with us and share with the men?
Jason Lange: Yeah, you know, so first I'll just state, obviously a lot of the guys I work with are self selected in a way. They're men who are willing to step in and ask for a coach's help or come to a men's group, which. So I'm speaking towards that population which is the. The group of men I work with. But I have been shocked, I mean, like, really surprised when I start to go in deep with men. It is not just physical that they want. They are completely longing for a deeper, emotional, heartfelt intimacy. And, you know, I see this most strongly in men I work with who have been married for a long time, but really all men that honestly, the most painful thing for them when they experience it is when their spouse gives them sex, but they're not into it. So they can feel like she's not actually here with me, she's just kind of giving me, but she's not here. And it is so painful and so lonely for these guys because what they're actually aching for is a deeper intimacy. Now, the challenge, right, that we bring to the table as men is we are not trained on what that is from a very young age. So this is where I think the patriarchy really does work against all of us. And even, even young boys and men, which they sometimes don't realize in that, you know, I've seen it, I still see it in the world sometimes. It kind of breaks my heart. And there's definitely research, you know, out there of how young boys and how young girls are often raised differently from even a young age, how they're held, particularly how they're dealt with when they're in some kind of pain or discomfort. There's still a default culture of, oh, you're a little boy. It's, oh, it's okay, you're fine. Get back up. You're tough. Yeah, go for it, right? And. Or stop crying. Probably the most poisonous one, you know, for both men and women, frankly, but particularly young boys. And this starts at a pretty young age. This thing I certainly experienced in many Men I work with of, from a young age, we are actually taught often and later even rewarded, paradoxically, for not being in our bodies. So when we say, get back up, you're fine, stop crying. What we're teaching, you know, young children, and boys in particular from a young age is, hey, whatever's happening inside your body and your heart, ignore it, override it with your head. And then, you know, obviously I'm pro education, but we get into the school system, which, the way it generally works now, unless you're in some kind of Montessori or alternative thing, is school is basically get in the classroom, sit still and pay attention. And, you know, young male bodies, they need to move. They got a lot of energy. If you've never spent time around little boys, they just. There's a very kinesthetic thing, right? Obviously, at an individual level, that's always going to be different. I'm talking at a kind of population level. But, you know, I got a son who's almost 22 years old, and I got a daughter who's 6. And yeah, it's very different. Like, I have to, like, keep up with him in a way. I'm like, I got to stay fit just to be able to play with this kid. He's very, very physical. He's into everything tactile, in a sense. But the school system, what it starts to do from a young age is, yeah, sit still and pay attention. And if you can't, you're a problem child. You probably have some kind of adhd. Maybe we even need to medicate you. And again, what we're starting to teach from a young age is, hey, that urge to move, ignore it, override it with your head. It's wrong. And then boys get into adolescence, right? Where the kind of patriarchy starts to come from the peers, our bodies are developing at different rates. They're suddenly in group out, group culture, you know, which is true for women, too, but for men, quickly. Certainly what I learned, what a lot of guys learn is, hey, if I share anything vulnerable, I got to be careful because I could be bullied, ostracized, outed from my group. And so I gotta learn to play cool, right? Young, whatever's happening inside, ignore it, override it with your head. And we get out into the workforce. And I mean, just the pathology of our culture, like, oh, my God, he works 90 hours a week and he sleeps under his desk. Wow, what an incredible guy. Like, to do that, you have to learn to ignore your body, ignore your heart. And so from a young age, and we're getting this message. And boys are literally trained out of our bodies in a lot of ways. And in the work I do, right, And I imagine this dovetails with some of your work. All emotion starts as some kind of sensation in the body. And so if we're not in our body, we are not connecting to our feelings, and then we're not. So we're not in our body, we're not connecting to our feelings. We're not supposed to talk about it as boys and men because everything's a competition. You gotta be cool, you gotta be a man, right? So all this stuff is happening inside of us. We don't even know how to label it, let alone talk about it. So when uncomfortable stuff happens, how most men deal with it by default is they either cut off and numb to it and go up in their heads, or they reach for something outside of themselves to try to change their inner state. Alcohol, weed, porn, and masturbation was something I was addicted to. Video games, tv, overworking, you name it. So by the point, we start to get into relationships, right? One of the most common things I hear from spouses of the men I work with, one of the phrases they get is, I can't feel you, I can't feel you. And he's like, well, what's a feeling? I don't even know. You're asking me how I feel and I can't even tell you that. And so it begins this painful thing of it's really hard to be intimate, right, with someone else. Like you said, if we're not even connected to ourselves, how do I share with my partner what my inner world is if I've never even been taught how to identify that, let alone express it? And then I think where this dovetails on the physical versus emotional is again, you know, there's still this kind of culture of homophobia. And so all of us humans need touch, but for boys in particular, well, I certainly can't touch another boy. So my touch needs suddenly all get directed into the one place in our culture that it is acceptable for men, which is sex. And so many guys don't even realize they're smuggling the two together. It's like they're collapsed. My need for sex and my need to just be in bodily contact with someone so I can co regulate and same thing with emotional content. You know, not all guys, but some guys then feel the only person they can share any vulnerability with is their intimate partner, which is great, unless that's the only person you feel comfortable sharing that with. Because then it starts to put a crazy amount of pressure on the relationship that can really kind of start to mess with dynamics. So, you know, guys who get to me, by the time they're getting to me, they're like, I long for actual intimacy with myself and my partner, and I literally do not know how to do it. I'm lost. Help me.
Host (More Than Sex and Secrets): Which is a beautiful segue into, you know, what. What is next? Where do you think it would be to start? I mean, it would be easy to be like, oh, well, let's just start by feeling and getting into your body. You know, a little easier said than done. Although I do know it can happen very quickly. Right. But there's. It's funny that you say, like, men want this intimacy, because what I hear from most of my clients, and definitely have experienced it myself, is as soon as a woman does feel, that's the part that they're most resistant to. And they want you not to feel, and they don't want you to bring your emotions on them. And they're terrified of the. The emotions. And the only emotion that is accepted, really, is anger or sadness. Like, those two are what men can do. So you have to either be angry or sad. Right. And every man wants you to just be happy. And then you're. Then you're the acceptable wife, acceptable girlfriend, if you're happy all the time. So how can we help our men to understand that they're safe feeling, that we're safe feeling, and it's not die, and that there's a ton of other vibrations, frequencies of emotion besides anger, sadness, and happy?
Jason Lange: Yeah. Well, this is what I've just kind of seen in the men I work with and frankly, in myself as I came to kind of connect these two pieces, is for a lot of men, because like all. Everything I just laid out, we don't have intimacy with our own emotional bodies and feelings, and we don't know what to do with them in particular. Like, literally, what do I do with that feeling inside me? And so most men try to get rid of it, like I said. Right. The consequence of that, often for relationships I've seen, is if I'm not comfortable being present to an emotion inside myself, guess what? If someone I'm with is feeling it, I want to get that out of them so fast. Because for me to be present with them in their emotional state, and I at least have to have some capacity to feel that resonance inside myself. And so I think this is often what drives. You know, there's a good part of it of you know, men often really do just want to help and be providers and all that kind of stuff. But I think a lot of times, again, kind of smuggled in there is, well, I don't want you to feel that way, because if you feel that way, I have to start to feel my stuff. So I want to move your feeling state. You know, I joke sometimes with my guys and, you know, I'm getting better, but I still do it. You know, you ask my wife, I would often lawyer up. Right. Would be my way of. If she was feeling something in my mind, it's helpful. Well, actually, you know, maybe it's more this or this or you should think about this or look at the bright side. And I'm trying to convince her that what she's feeling is incorrect and nothing will create more disconnection between us faster than when she feels that.
Host (More Than Sex and Secrets): Yeah. And that's what most people are calling gaslighting. Right. But from how you just explained it and explained how men are raised, that form of gaslighting is more of a tactic to help rather than control or make somebody wrong. Right. So how can we when we are being denied our feelings? And most of my family, Most of my family, okay, you guys are my family. You're listening. I just called you family.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host (More Than Sex and Secrets): So most of my audience, like, they. They have done the work, right? They've been doing the emotional, intelligent work. They. They know they were abused. They're like, okay, I have to relearn how to do all of me and all of life, because what I was taught was rubbish. And they attract somebody and they're really good at this is how I'm feeling now, and labeling it and naming it and nonviolent communication it. Right? And the person says, oh, no, you don't feel that way, and they lawyer up. I love how you explained it. Then they'll go, oh, well, you just gaslit me and I'm out. Right. Which is gonna hurt a good man. So how can we communicate? How can we support our mental health to be okay with us handling our own emotions at the same time helping men to go, oh, maybe I'm just not comfortable with that feeling. So I don't want it mirrored to me. And I'm also uncomfortable not knowing if she's going to be able to handle it on her own.
Jason Lange: Yeah, well, I mean, there's kind of two steps. You know, what, literally, what might you do as a feminine partner in that moment to support your man in terms of, hey, I don't want advice or feedback right now. You Know, can you really just be present with me? I just need you to be present with me. And sometimes that's just a very generous, very challenging thing. I would argue, obviously, I'm not a woman, but I've seen my wife step into it, which is just to give me the unfiltered feeling of her heart. Like, it really hurts. Like, I'm hurting right now with how much you're trying to fix me. And usually that'll wake me up. Like, it'll actually wake me up. The other thing then that's a little challenging here, is this is more for the men. I think the best place to learn this, like, so actually to build the skill set is to be around other men in deep community and have the experience. Because this is often where men get to feel it from the other side. They bring something in, and you got a group of eight guys, they're going to want to, oh, have you tried this? Have you tried this? And they're like, whoa, right? And they actually get to feel it, like, I don't need you to fix me right now. And. And that's often where we can start to slow down and where men can even start to first have the experience in a good group, right. Of what it means for someone to just be present with them without any agenda to make them feel differently than they are. And most men that come into deep men's work with me, frankly, have never felt that. And when they feel it, it is like a bodily revelation of, oh, my God, I have been posturing and protecting all of this time because I've never felt that anyone could just be with me in my grief or my anger or any of my hurt or upset. You know, one specific moment I often see this really poignantly is, you know, many men, and obviously it's a full range, but many men will come in and they will admit in a safe group at some time. You know, there's been times in my life, it has been so hard that part of me thought about just checking out, right? Just getting out of this life, because I just. I didn't know what else to do. And the visceral experience I've seen multiple times of when another man is sitting right next to them and just turns to them in that moment and says nothing else other than, wow, man, I get it. I've been there. And then just sits with them is so healing because so many men think they're the only ones who ever got to that place and there's something uniquely wrong with them. But when they feel that presence without an agenda, it starts to open them. And in those spaces, I think in particular, men can. We can start to build the actual capacity to be present with ourself, our emotions, be intimate with ourselves, to witness other men do the same, which then helps us often find the courage to do it ourselves. And we start to build that real interoception, right. That awareness and that capacity to stay present with emotional content without trying to fix it. And then for many men I work with, many who do come to me because of relationship issues, they kind of eventually have the light bulb moment of, oh my God, Literally I just need to listen to her. Like, she just actually wants me to listen to her. And I just listen and hold some space and she has a movement and then she thanks me and I'm like, oh, I didn't have to, like, fix it all or do it all. And it's actually a relief to them to find, wow, there is a way I can actually provide for my woman, so to speak. But it's not through doing. It's through me just being with her.
Host (More Than Sex and Secrets): Yeah, Yeah. I think that's so important. And in that, like, how much of it is them being okay, being in the emotion, whatever she's feeling and not running from it, and how much of it is just them wanting to solve the problem and be in that masculine role?
Jason Lange: It's often, you know, it's a blend of both for sure. But what I've seen is when we first focus on becoming more comfortable with emotional experience inside themselves, outside themselves, with other men, their. Their capacity goes up where it's like, oh, just because there's stormy weather right now doesn't mean it's always going to be that way. Right. In a sense, a lot of men are terrified of emotions because they think an emotion is going to exist forever. So, right. They're like, oh my God, I can feel like there's this dam and behind it is all this grief I've never felt, but I've literally heard this from multiple men. I'm too afraid to go there because I feel like if I let it out, I'll never come back from that. It's how terrified they are of the feeling state. Right. But as we learn to build that capacity of like, oh, yeah, wow. When you're actually with an emotion, most emotions have a half life of like 90 seconds to three minutes. And it's not that it's gone forever, but it's like the wave, the set of waves, the ocean wave passes and there's a little lull and as men get that, they're like, oh, I can hang here more often, both in myself and with my partner. And then, you know, just the last thing I'll share is it becomes about trust. It's oh wait, you know what? Actually, yeah, I'm with a grown ass woman and if she actually wants my advice or feedback, she'll ask, right? Sometimes she'll be like, no, I actually want you to tell me like, what do you think about this? And then you can bring all of that and frankly, whatever you do bring, in my experience in my relationship, my wife's way more open to hear it. If I've met her in her emotional state first. If I haven't met her in her emotional state, nothing I say actually fucking matters in a lot of ways because she doesn't feel met yet. She doesn't actually feel like my body is listening to hers. So that's one big moment I really work with men on.
Host (More Than Sex and Secrets): I absolutely think that's so important, so important. And it's important for women to understand too. And I know a lot of women are listening and going, well, us too. Well, us too. That's what we think too, right? That's how we feel too. Especially around healing. So many women don't want to look at whatever they're hiding from, whatever they want to heal from because they might cry forever, right? They're never, they start crying, they're never going to stop crying. And it's just not true. But once that dam is released and you grow safe in each emotion or each frequency, which is emotion, then life is just better all around and communication is easier. And I had to learn how to communicate, period. So I had to learn how to feel, how to communicate, how to set a boundary, how to do it all right? So it's never too late, I think for us to do that. Is there any last bit of advice that you want to men listening or the women listening that are going to go and share this with your men guys, share it with your partners and you know, any last bits of advice or tips that you want to give them for closer intimacy or anything else and where can they find your group or groups like yours?
Jason Lange: Sure, yeah. What I would say speaking to men and women who are partnered with men and this is counter intuitive to a lot of men until they start to experience it. One of the best ways you can start to more deeply support your intimate partner is by getting support for yourself. So this is why I think a men's group is so crucial. And you know, I a Good friend of mine from my personal men's group here. He was my best man in my wedding almost a decade ago. And is this, I mean, to me it's just absolutely legendary. His whole best man speech. As he got up behind me, he kind of stood behind me, put his hand on my back, and all he said to me was, while you've got Violet, me and the group have you. And that was it. And so the feeling state of that which my wife has viscerally felt is not only am I being held by Jason, but he is being held by all the man men in his life who then in turn are holding me in our family. And so when I am dysregulated, I have a place to go to find myself, to find my center, to get into my emotional truth, to get reflections about what's happening in my relationship and where I have to take responsibility for some of it. And that helps me come back to my center so I can be present and hold my wife when she's in a challenging place or hold my two kids when they're tantruming or whatever that might place might be. And most men these days do not have that kind of support in their lives. They bottle it all up and they fall for this total American Marlboro man, lone wolf, do it all yourself, be tough kind of mechanic that frankly kills men. Right. I think it's a big part of why suicide rates are so high for men, because we are taught to keep it all inside. And if you can barely keep yourself together as a man, you are going to have no bandwidth to be present for the person you love the most in your relationship. So learn to get help, guys. And I've seen it enough. Sex will get better, your relationship will get better, you'll make more money, people will trust you, your relationship with your kids will get better and you'll just have more fun. And so, yeah, I mean, if, if this rings anyone's bell, you can kind of keep up with me and, you know, my cut of men's work and what it means to get into a men's group by just visiting evolutionary.men. so it's not.combut.men. and for guys in particular, there is a free quiz on there you can do that'll kind of show you both your gifts as a man and probably the very big blind spot that's right next to it of where you could grow the most
Host (More Than Sex and Secrets): fantastic. Thank you so much for everything that you're doing. Thank you for working with our men. And yeah, holding space a lot of us women still like you guys.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host (More Than Sex and Secrets): And, yeah. Thank you so much for everything you do. Hey, everybody. Thank you so much for listening to More Than Sex and Secrets. Please share this with a man in your life or a woman, you know, that has a man and that can just hear, you know, the depths of emotional intelligence and the importance of emotional intelligence, not only for our sex lives in the bedroom, but also our relationships out of the bedroom and our success in life, period. Anyway, thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you next week on More Than Sex and Secrets.
