289: Do Nice Guys tend to attract volatile women? | Dear Men

Jason Lange: Open their eyes and realize, whoa, this actually is pretty messed up or what I've come to tolerate, is not it actually all normal, right? Other relationships exist in very different ways to this.

Melanie Curtin: Hey all, it is the final episode of the year of 2023. We are wrapping out the year and this episode is one that we've wanted to do for a while and I'm just wanting to presence that out of the darkness can come light and that when we really look at patterns and we really get in there and move things around, you know, that's really when transformation happens. So I guess I just want to say that I acknowledge all of you who are listening to this and who resonate with it and who might feel seen or perhaps exposed by it and just know that we are here to hold that and to also hold the vision and the truth of the fact that we've seen many, many people men overcome patterns like this and move into healthy relationships. So that is possible and that is what we're doing here. So I just wanted to say that and I have a cool celebration for the podcast this week. This is from someone who is a longtime client. You know who you are and without further ado, I will get into his celebration and then the episode Hi Melanie, I took your advice and went to a sound bath last week. My friend was running it and invited all to come so I felt like this was divine timing. When I arrived there was a cute girl working at the check in station. I spoke to her briefly and she got me checked in. I had a great experience with the sound bath and when it was over I went back downstairs to chat with her. I told her about how I was in a men's group and how it's changed my life. She was intrigued and wanted to hear more. I told her about the retreat and the beautiful visions I've had while doing breath work. I even told her that I cried tears of joy during it. I realized how happy I was that my father is still alive and in my life. She began to tear up at my stories and I offered her a hug. She took me up on it and we held each other in a warm embrace. I told her how much lighter I felt after being wrapped up in her arms, even if just for a few seconds. We continued to connect as I told her stories of my family and she told me stories about hers. She even got choked up again and I offered her another hug. She took me up on it. We continued connecting for about 45 minutes until she had to lock up. But before parting she said we needed to exchange numbers and we did. And before I left, she said, I want another hug. I'm going to drag it out of you. I said, it's my absolute pleasure. And we had a third and final hug before her hands collapsed in mine and we slowly let go. As it exited the shop, I felt so high on life. I walked along the pier and looked at the ocean. Then I treated myself to a great lunch and counted my blessings. I hope to see her again, but if not, just know that this was one of the greatest interactions I've ever had with the feminine. Upon first meeting them right then and there, we were both present and there for one another. I'm so grateful for the work I've done and I can't wait to have another shared experience just like it. I love that share for a number of reasons, and one of them is that the pure joy of connecting with another human being is one of the reasons life is worth living. And I really, really love hearing these stories, particularly for people who haven't had a lot of that kind of connection in their life. To. To see that come in and to see the continued opening and the continued growth and the continued transformation is part of why I do the work that I do. And I'm deeply, deeply inspired. So thank you for sharing that you know who you are, and I look forward to hearing many more stories like that in the hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode with Jason. A Jason episode.

Jason Lange: Yay. Excited to be back.

Melanie Curtin: This is an episode on a pattern that we've noticed in clients and some of our other sort of mentor healer type friends have also noticed and we've been talking a little bit about which is a polarity between nice guys and volatile women. And when we say nice guys here, we're talking mostly about sort of the nice guy syndrome that we've discussed on other podcasts and the sort of. We've shared this before as well. But there is a tendency for all of us to attract our reciprocal. And so there's a. There's an adage that if you want to attract a healthy partner, get as healthy as you can. Right yourself. So work on yourself and become as healthy as you can. And that is what is going to attract a healthy partner more than looking for a healthy partner.

Jason Lange: Right.

Melanie Curtin: The easiest polarity work we can do is on ourselves because then we tend to attract our reciprocal. And of course there's some work we can do by ourselves. There's some work we need to do in relationship. Yeah, this is an interesting pattern because it's one we've seen repeatedly, and it's one that is not. This is not fixed. So there's not. I think sometimes there can be a tendency to be a bit despairing of like, shit, I'm a nice guy. I'm always going to be a nice guy. I'm doomed. You know, that is not the case. And we've seen tremendous growth in a lot of the men that we've worked with that have come in either in a relationship with a volatile woman or recently divorced from a volatile woman, or they've had a string of those. And as they do the work, they tend to attract healthier partners. So don't despair. This is going to be, you know, there's a lot of intensity here and it's not hopeless. So I just wanted to say that out loud right at the beginning. So do nice guys attract volatile women? Tell me a little bit about what you've observed or witnessed in your, you know, in your work with our clients as well as in perhaps friend circles about this particular polarity dynamic. And when we're. We're saying the word polarity right now, we don't mean alpha and omega the way that we've talked about it before. We just mean sort of two opposites. Right. Two. Two extreme. Two sides of a coin, two aspects of duality that tend to come together.

Jason Lange: Yeah. How I've been telling some of our guys we work with about this is, you know, the most popular form of polarity we often talk about is. Yeah, masculine, feminine, alpha and omega. But the. The most kind of simplified version of polarity is just what you put out reciprocates something back. The energy you put out reciprocates a certain type of energy back. And so what really inspired the idea for us to talk about this was, right, I'm definitely a recovering nice guy. We work with a lot of recovering nice guys. And one of the hallmark traits of nice guys is not having good boundaries. Right. So not being very boundaried and often overextending ourselves, not setting limits on things, not advocating for ourselves. And what's important about that is that creates a polarity. And so what we've often seen in what I've seen in a lot of our clients and in some ways have experienced in my own life is a man who isn't boundaried will attract a partner often who isn't boundaried or doesn't respect boundaries. Right. And so sometimes this will show up as couples, nice guys getting into things and then it moving forward really fast. Like really, really fast. There's just no boundary there. And, you know, while there's no perfect time limit or anything we ascribe to, sometimes the, the connective structures in the relationship haven't actually been built up yet. And a man is kind of moving towards something that maybe he isn't even ready for and that, or that they just attract a partner who doesn't respect their boundaries. Right. And because a nice guy doesn't set them, it makes it really easy because then they can kind of just go for what they want and try to get what they want all the time. And this lack of advocacy for a lot of nice guys, which is really, you know, as I've been sharing on the show over recent episodes, is this idea that, you know, nice guy syndrome is really when we over index on attuning to the other and putting the other person's needs ahead of our own. So we either lose touch with ours, we forget about ours, we bury ours, we. Or we're just too afraid to surface them. And so what I found is nice guys often tend to be really compatible with very volatile women because what they'll often do is any of that volatility. They'll, they'll internalize it as it's my fault. And so I have to fix it. I have to make her feel better and make it right. And that creates a certain type of, of polarity in a sense. There's a, there's a constant back and forth and energetic exchange of, oh, I messed up now, I have to fix it. I have to get her, you know, get things back to okay. And the energetic exchange there creates some pretty deep patterns in the relationship and they can be pretty dysfunctional. You know, truth be told.

Melanie Curtin: I'm glad you named that explicitly because I think one of the patterns that I definitely wanted to surface here is domestic violence. And when we use that term in our culture, we tend to mean domestic violence of a man against a woman. And that is absolutely by far the most prevalent form of domestic violence. But there is plenty of domestic violence the other way around. And particularly in these dynamics that often the nice guy will attract a volatile woman, sometimes with traits of borderline personality disorder. If you feel like you're never getting it right with her ever, that could be something that's, that's happening. And we do have an episode on bpd, Borderline Personality Disorder, that I will drop in the show notes of this, of this episode. But one of the hallmarks of BPD and borderline traits is if I'm let's say, I'm a BPD woman and you're my partner. I'm never wrong. Right. It's. It is always your fault in my world. I didn't, I didn't do anything wrong and it's your fault. You know, the sort of like, look what you made me do type of mentality. And there's very little space or room for anyone else's reality in that scenario. And it can, you know, I really took to heart what you just said about the lack of boundaries. And, you know, there's not going to be a lot of space in that relationship for perhaps her, you know, making space for him. Right. Like, what do you. What do you think? What are you. What are you needing? That's just not going to be there. And so if he isn't able to advocate for himself, he doesn't have a teammate in her around that. Right? It's like, yeah, it's like the. Given the take that you mentioned, it's like one of them will just keep taking there. It's like, yeah, well, if you keep giving, I'm going to keep taking. And so there's. There's a sort of polarity there of, like you said, overextending. And then what I've often seen, and I'm curious to hear your. Your experience of this is it. It is exhausting, right? It is exhausting for the man who is overextending. It's tiring. It's like constantly giving and never really receiving. What you need is depleting, very depleting. I'm thinking about, you know, one of our clients who was engaged to a woman, a relatively volatile woman, and he just felt so used, you know, he felt really used. Like, she just kept taking and taking. And I think he was supporting both of them financially and he was helping her with her with something that she was working on in her personal life. And everything was one directional. Right? It's like, I'm giving to you and I'm not getting anything in return. And that is a very tiring dynamic. And it can be easy to kind of blame the other person, right? It's like, well, it's her fault that she's always giving or. Sorry. She's always receiving and I'm always giving and she. She's always taking. I'm always giving. Like, I'm exhausted, I'm tired. It's her fault. And I think there's a. There's a fundamental shift around grasping the polarity of this. Right. Really grasping what this dynamic is and why it. Why it exists. There is a. There is a. There's an element of responsibility on both sides. This is not just one way, one way street. And not everyone's relationship looks or feels like this. I think that's one of the confusing things about romantic relationships is we don't get a window into other people's. We don't know what it looks like inside theirs. We don't know what normal is. And so a lot of people will just repeat patterns from their childhood or they'll just think this is how relationship is. And there isn't a lot of insight into actually. No. Right. In other people's relationships, this. This looks different, this feels different. And one of the things that I think is a very frequent occurrence that I have seen repeatedly in our men is isolation. Isolation is the breeding ground of domestic violence and all of the rest of the things that aren't good. It's the foundation upon which everything else rests. And a lot of our men have come to us after being in relationships where they felt deeply isolated and they felt deeply alone, really alone and stuck. And some of that did have to do with their spouse or their partner who actually didn't want them to see other people outside the relationship. Right. They weren't okay with that. And then some of it was also just. They felt so beaten down. Like I said, they felt so depleted and so exhausted from what was happening in the relationship that they just didn't have the energy. So whether it was one or the other, isolation is a huge part of this pattern that I just wanted to. To name. And I'm curious if you have any reflections on that element of it.

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. In that, you know, certainly having worked with a lot of guys now who have dated partners, if they're not, you know, clinically diagnosed with bpd, they have some BPD like tend. Right. And one of them that is often is, you know, I kind of call it the reality distortion field. It's like their version of reality is really strong and people get sucked into it. And if you don't see reality in that way, you're made an enemy and you're pushed out of the circle. Right. So, you know, I've also said in a way, it's often like specifically these highly volatile partners with some BPD traits can often create like a cult of two where right there, no information from the outside gets in, and it's just the reality there. And that makes it really challenging for guys because it. It usually happens over time. It's like the. The boiling pot of water that you Know, the frog's in or the lobster's in, you don't necessarily realize it right away. And what we've seen you in group work and why it's so important for men to get into community is suddenly new information starts to get in from the outside and men are able to actually open their eyes and realize, whoa, this actually is pretty messed up. Or what I've come to tolerate is not it actually all normal, right? Other relationships exist in very different ways to this. And it's one of the things that, you know, guys who are on the other side, either they got out of a relationship or are in it. And you know, certainly why I've often advocated for men's groups on this is, you know, when you're checking in with guys and they're, and they're like, wow, that seems pretty intense. Like I wouldn't be comfortable with that in my relationship. And you know, if you're like one on one with a guy, you could say, ah, he's just really different, da da, da. But you know, when three, four, five, six, seven other people are reflecting something to you, it's pretty hard to deny often that, oh, wow, here's what we see on the outside. We're concerned, we care about you. And it seems like you're not protecting yourself in some important ways here. And so that community piece is such a big deal. And you know, the, the last thing I'll share is some of the roots of this. And again, part of why I thought to have this episode is, you know, this is just a generalization. So it's not the case with every nice guy. But oftentimes many nice guys kind of became that way because at an early age their family system meant they had to regulate one of their parents or the family system itself, right? There was a lot of volatility or instability in the family. And so them being kind of the ones that keep it all together and help everybody else stay together becomes part of how that forms for some nice guys that specifically with mom, like they, they co regulate mom. And that creates a pretty deep pattern that they then take forward into all these other relationships, right? And that kind of tendencies shows up, right, of oh, I'm here to make you feel better, to regulate you, right? I'm here to make you feel better. And oftentimes the story is I'm the one that created your dysregulation, so I need to fix it. Right? It's kind of the paradigm that often happens in these relationships. And it's really easy to get sucked into that and not have that outside context because, you know, for men in general, we're not great, particularly as we get older at oftentimes creating healthy relationships with others that we kind of reveal the struggles of our relationships or our inner world too. So it's really easy to kind of get vacuum sealed in to the relationship, so to speak. And this community piece you're speaking about is so important to kind of giving men a window out.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And a couple of. I just want to give a couple of examples of the volatility and what can happen. So, for example, there was a man whose partner threatened suicide. This was a regular occurrence that she would threaten suicide and sometimes she would lock herself in the bathroom. And this was a really scary thing. This is a very scary thing to confront. He didn't really know how to. To handle it. It was an unhealthy part of the dynamic and she needed outside support. Right. It's like, that's, that's. You need other help. But when something like that's happening there. We've spoken to multiple men, worked with men who've had partners throw things at them. Sometimes there have even been weapons involved. So the level of volatility that we hear about is normally emotional volatility and a lot of verbal abuse and. Yeah, emotional and verbal, but it can also be physical and, And a lot of it is. I, I think it was poignant the way that you just described it of, oh, well, you're, you're angry, you're upset. It. It's my fault. I must be the one who caused this pain, therefore I should be the one to regulate you. And there's often not a lot of conscious thought associated with it. It's. It's fused. It's like it feels familiar in some way. And it's like, this is my role. This is the dynamic. This is the dance that we have. Right. This is, this is the dance that we have. And you know, I'm thinking about one of our, one of our clients where it was. Became increasingly obvious to him because of his children, actually. So the behaviors that she was engaging in with him were upsetting and distressing. But it wasn't until he could see it happening with the kids that it. That he really woke up and was like this, this is unacceptable. Like, now something needs to change. And that is true of a lot of people in a lot of different circumstances where what I will tolerate you doing to me is one thing, but what I will tolerate you doing to this innocent, small person that I love. That's a whole different thing. So there, there can be also a shifting dynamic when there are kids involved. That isn't necessarily the case. When there aren't. Right. When there aren't, it can be harder. And like you said, a lot of the nice guys that we've worked with and a lot of I think that that pattern is about self love, self recognition, self honoring and actually valuing. I am a person and my needs matter and my feelings matter. And that. That is a really hard journey to do alone. It sounds like you quote should be able to do that because it's about self, right? It's like self love, self acceptance. Sounds like it's just about me with me. But actually the journey to self love and self acceptance often comes through, you know, healthy reflection, healthy mentorship, healthy community, healthy other people reflecting our own. Our own. I was, I want to say beauty, which is a weird word to use, but. But our own selves back to us. And there's a quote that says a friend is someone who knows the song in your heart and can play the words back to you when you've forgotten them. And I've had my own experience not exactly to this degree. And I wouldn't say that my partner was volatile, but I was in an unhealthy relationship where I felt like I lost myself in my 20s. And I was very depressed. I was deeply depressed and didn't really notice it. Like you said, it happened over time. I was the frog in boiling water. And I remember at one point there was a. There was a time when someone was talking about somebody got hit by lightning. And I thought to myself, oh, that actually sounds really great to be. To have it just end. And I remember having that thought. And then right on the heels of that, I remember thinking, that's probably not normal. Other people, probably other people in this room probably aren't having that thought that feels concerning. And then I remember visiting a woman friend of mine, went on a trip and I was away from the physicality of my relationship for like five days, like a good number of days. And by day three, I was in the shower and I just remember thinking, oh, I forgot what it feels like to be me. I forgot what it feels like to be happy or to feel joy or aliveness, some kind of aliveness. And I was really grateful for my. My woman friend because. Because she did know me really well. That was the healing part, was being around her. Someone who knew me well, who was deeply list to me, who was able to reflect me back to me. Right. Be seen is One is a. In human need. It's a fundamental human need. And when you're in a relationship with someone who has BPD traits, let's say, it's really hard to feel seen. There's not a lot of you feeling seen. There's a lot of you reflecting them. There's a lot of you putting attention on them or taking care of them or regulating them or, you know, a lot of the attention in the relationship is on them, not on you. So it's really easy to lose yourself. And I remember that trip was a turning point for me of this doesn't feel healthy. I, I don't think I'm in a healthy relationship. And this was my first serious relationship in my 20s. I didn't really know what relationship was. I didn't know what normal was. I was just doing my best, doing my thing, just trying, you know, trying. And I had this story that, oh, well, I have to work out my stuff with someone. So if it's not this guy, it'll probably be just another guy just like him. Which in a way is a noble thing to say, right? It's like, okay, I recognize that my patterns are in here, but looking back on it, I was so triggered so much of the time that it wasn't healthy. It's like you can't live in a constantly triggered state and grow. It's too hard. You can be triggered some of the time and then work on it, but you can't be triggered all of the time. You should not be in fight or flight or have your feelings hurt constantly. It's. That's not healthy. So there is something about, you know, I think part of our intention in this episode is to normalize this pattern. This is a very common, frequent pattern, right? It's like many people, many introverts attract extroverts, right? It's a common pattern. If you look at a bunch of couples, yep, there's the one that talks a lot. There's the one that listens a lot. It's very common. This is a little bit like that. This is a very common pattern. The extreme end right. Of it. Perhaps not as common, but still pretty common. So, and, and it's not unwork with the bowl. I guess that is. The other thing is we've seen a lot of men overcome this and come out the other side, but that part about, you know, losing yourself, losing your selfhood, yourself, your identity, your. Your, Your own selfness is a very common thing that we've seen. And it, it actually takes other people, It Takes community and quality mentorship to help you come back to yourself. Even though it's. It seems like you should be able to do that on your own, it's actually really, really hard to do on your own.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And I've. I've talked to men, right, who have shared like, oh yeah, it's. It's when I drop my partner off at the airport and then they're gone and suddenly I feel my whole body relax and I'm like, oh my God, I feel free. Is the kind of intensity that can be part of this in, you know, because really another way to think about this, like I said, is in the kind of cult of two. Often it's the volatiles person, volatile person's nervous system that gets centered so their nervous system becomes reality, even if their nervous system is distorted. And that's the trouble. So if, particularly if they have BPD and that's the case, you know, someone who doesn't have nice guy tendencies may see that and set the boundary in the sense of, well, then I'm not going to participate in this relationship because there's no reciprocity here, right? It's just me putting out and I'm not getting any energetic exchange or understanding or trust or appreciation back. So why this polarity partly works is nice guys are some of the only guys that'll stick around with a highly volatile BPD like partner who might have a lot of vigilance or anger in their nervous system, right? This shows up in different ways or control, you know, can be really controlling or constantly tracking these different ways that their nervous system kind of becomes reality. Because a lot of nice guys just don't have the training yet to advocate and to connect to their truth and to set hard boundaries that might mean the end of relationships. They'll stay in it. And so there is, there's something that works there, right? Nice guys who are often, sometimes anxious and afraid of being alone, they have someone who will stay with them and vice versa, and they'll stay with that other person. So it, you know, in a way it works, which is why it's so common. The thing is, it's not particularly healthy or rejuvenating, I would say, for really for either partners often, but particularly for the nice guys who are constantly kind of again, undervaluing their truth and reality and needs and not getting a whole lot back. So there's constantly this, I'm trying to fix things and make it okay is often the case in these dynamics and why it can be so painful for.

Melanie Curtin: Nice guys And I also want to name that. You know, we've been talking about emotional volatility. Another way that this can show up is a cold woman. So we, you know, had a client who was in a relationship with a woman with avoidant attachment is really what we're talking about. But the way it felt, it was cold. So he would try to reach out and he was trying to engage her in conversation about the relationship and just be available and. And getting very little back or pushback. Pushback or very little back. And so there's also a kind of coldness and I'm shutting you out. I keep you out with the sort of ice queen archetype, that there is some truth to that too, and that the avoidant. That that avoidant pattern polarizes an anxious pattern, which is I move away from you, you move towards me. As you move towards me, I move away from you. And there's a very famous book called I hate you, Don't Leave me, which is partly about that dance of when one person goes towards, the other person moves away. When one person goes towards, the other person moves away. And that can be another way that this can present. And that can sometimes be a sort of repeat of a pattern from the past around. Like mom wasn't really available or dad wasn't really available. But I was always trying to get their attention, right? There's a feeling of craving the attention of this person, just wanting them to be. Pay attention to me, to love me, to see me, right? And so there's this constant desire to have them see. See me. And there's a constant efforting, constant striving trying to get them to see me. That is also exhausting in a different way. But I wanted to include that. Make sure that if you. If you've been in that scenario, that you also feel seen in this episode. Because that is something that we've seen probably to a lesser degree, but it's very seductive. These are all seductive patterns, meaning there's a part of our nervous system that craves the completion of that pattern. We really want the attention from that person. You know, we just really want everything to be okay and for them to be okay and for us to be okay and just. It's such a primal drive when we haven't kind of done the work yet to. To. To under. To. To look at the. To look at what's under the rock, right? To really get at the root, totally out of the. Of the pat of what's behind the pattern. It's just such a drive. And you know, that's something else that should be named in this episode, which is when you add sexuality on top of all of this, it's even more seductive. So a lot of these really volatile relationships, particularly at the beginning. But if you, you know, read accounts online around, you know, borderline. For example, there's a lot of. Of men who talk about, oh, my God, the beginning was heaven. The beginning was everything I've ever wanted. You know, it was. Because there's a. There's a term called splitting that you might be familiar with if you're listening to this. If you're not, it's just. I'm. If I am the woman with BPD traits, I split the world, good and bad. I split black or white. There's not a lot of gray. So you're either good or you're bad, right? If you've done something that hurts my feelings, you're bad. I've coded you as bad. If you. If I've coded you as good, oh, I'm gonna give you everything, right? I'm just. Oh, I'm. I'm all in. And there's so. There's so many accounts of. Of men who were like, it was incredible at the beginning. I mean, the sex was incredible. The attention, the. You know, there. There is a deep truth to A lot of the women with BPD traits are deeply attuned in some ways to. To emotions, to. And. And they can read. They can read people, so they're. They can. You can feel deeply seen in some ways, especially at the beginning, and appreciated and, you know, but it doesn't last, right? There's a. There's a turn that often happens, right? 1. Once I've. Once I've split you as bad or you hurt my feelings in some way, according to me, right? It's like you didn't invite me to your work event because you are. Because you think that I'm. Fill in the blank. And now I'm. I'm furious with you. I'm furious with you. How could you do that to me? How could you hurt me like that? It's like, I didn't mean to. That wasn't my intention. It's like I don't care like that. Like, to me, it's like that's what happened. That is what happened. You excluded me because you think that I'm bad or, I don't know, whatever the reason is, and there's no budging me from that position. This is why you did it. I know. I know this is why. And. And now you need to grovel or whatever. You need to get back into my good graces, right, in order for me to. And love you again. And even then, you know, you're kind of in the doghouse. Like, I'm watching you. I'm. I'm. I'm seeing what you do next. And that. That is why, you know, the. The preeminent book on the subject is called Stop Walking on Eggshells. Because the experience, the emotional experience of relating with someone who is volatile in that way is. I'm constantly walking on eggshells. I'm concerned about what I say, when I say it, how I say it, where I'm walking, how loud I'm being, where I parked the car, what I made for dinner. Like, I'm. I'm. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop all the time. I'm just waiting for the next explosion. And the illusion, right, is that if I can do everything perfectly, then there won't be an explosion. If I cook everything, if I park in the right place, if I say the right thing, if I don't piss her off before bed, if I, like, if I can do everything perfectly, and. And then I won't walk on the eggshells, then everything will be fine. And then what's so sad about it is that most of the time, the truth is that what's going on has little to do with the outside and more to do with her inside. Her internal reality. What's happening for her? Some women with BPD traits will regulate by yelling at someone. It's about her emotional state. Not really about the dishes, right? It's. It's like she'll find something in the environment to make it about, but it's really about her own state. And so it's confusing and it's an illusion. And it feels like it's always a moving target, because it is. Because it isn't really about the laundry. It isn't really about where the car is parked. It isn't really about, you know, any of those things. It's about her emotional state. And that is really hard to. To actually. Well, I guess it's impossible to actually predict or contend with, which is why it's part of why it's really, really hard to work with unless you have someone who is willing to work with it. And for. And the truth is, and many therapists will tell you this borderline personality in particular is. Is a personality disorder where the person is usually unwilling to look at themselves. So there's not a lot of room or space to work with it, because it's like. But it's not my fault. It is about the toilet seat. Right. It is about the bed. It is about the thing that I'm saying. It's about. It's never about me. And that's. That can be really hard. And I think that the truth is, many of the men that we've worked with, the boundary that has been necessary in the end is exiting the relationship. That there isn't. You know, we've had men who've just tried over and over, they've tried all the things. They've gone to couples counseling, they've tried mediation, they've extended themselves, they've overextended themselves, they've extended themselves again. They've tried it this way. They've moved locations. Right. Moved houses, moved towns, moved. They've tried a lot of things. And then there's a moment of like. Like, it's not about you and it's not about the environment. It's about this person and this relationship. And sometimes, yeah, the boundary is exiting the relationship. And I'm curious if you can speak a little bit to what you've witnessed in the emotional experience of men who are in that position. Because that's a. I. I'm remembering one client in particular. But I'm hoping you can speak a little bit to this. Of course, what that moment is like. That sort of come to Jesus moment.

Jason Lange: Yeah. It's often incredibly scary and panic inducing in a sense, because there's a fear that if I end this, I'm going to be alone for a lot of nice guys. And why they'll. They'll put up with that, in a sense. And that, you know, again, you know, when we say stop walking on eggshells, in a sense, it's her nervous system that are the eggshells. Right. You're trying not to. To trigger it. And when it does get triggered, it's our fault. Right. And a lot of nice guys, because they don't have a sense of boundary, won't push back on that or won't know how to push back on that. So it's like, oh, I got too angry. Right. So nice guys won't speak up where, you know, one of the big shifts I've seen in myself and a lot of nice guys I've had to work with are the realization. It's like, oh, maybe me speaking up isn't aggressive. Maybe it's my partner's nervous system, how they're interpreting that. Right. And this is a whole spectrum of how this could show up. But it's something I've definitely seen with nice guys, right. They get some early intense feedback and so they start to downplay all of their shares and authenticity. Right. And that, you know, just one other thing I wanted to share too, is that definitely, you know, love bombing, I think is something that can happen to nice guys, particularly with Holly highly volatile partners. Because with a borderline person who has the splitting, right, to some extent, that starts to happen once there's history and there's experiences to start sorting. But when you're new, it's like, it's all good, right? So that's why there's often a tendency with people with borderline personality disorder to have very unstable relationships. They like, go in strong, best friends, best lovers, and then it blows up and then they move on to the next person because there and these traits start to come through. But for the guys we've seen that, you know, have set that boundary, for a lot of them, it's just incredibly hard to do. And the big thing that's helped them a lot of times is just talking to other men who are on the other side who are like, hey, I got through it. And actually it's way better than I thought. My life didn't end. Turns out my partner and I, you know, if we're parents, we're better as co parents with that additional space and I'm starting to meet partners now, who there is that reciprocity with, right? Who. It's not always on me or it's not always my fault. And I'm allowed to kind of say things and put myself out there. But it, it is just a very scary thing for a lot of nice guys because they don't know how to do it. They don't, they don't always have the language for it. A lot of the, you know, a lot of them, until they work with us or listen to stuff like this, don't even know they're in relationship with a partner where no matter what they share, the truth isn't really going to matter. Right. And it's through the community and through the mentorship that the lights start to go off of, oh, wow, this isn't going to change unless my partner is willing to change. And I've made a number of invitations, created a plan or structure, invited her into that, and it's not changing. So my choice is do I stay a yes to this paradigm and live in it or do I exit the relationship? You know, which is often for a lot of the guys we've Worked with one of the first significant boundaries they've set in their lives to exit that relationship, like you said. And so it's emotionally intense. There's like the, oh my gosh, what did I just do right? It triggers a lot of the anxiety that lives underneath in the nervous systems of nice guys of like, I, I messed something up, I broke it, and it's not going to be okay. That's where community and mentorship can really help because it's like your nervous system's Friday night out, but we got you. You're going to be okay. You're going to be okay.

Melanie Curtin: That's a really great way of putting in. And I think that's worth repeating as one of the biggest this is, has been. I have witnessed this be one of the biggest boundaries ever in this man's life. And it's possible that he's never actually chosen his own well being in a real concrete way before this moment. And so it can be, yeah, can just bring up a lot of old stuff and a lot of like, wow, I didn't even really know that was an option. Like, I didn't really know that was on the menu. I never really anticipated that I would be here. I'm remembering, you know, one of our guys where he was describing some dynamics with his partner and they were very concerning. And you know, we were on a group call and I said, I'm worried for you and this is why. And I sort of explained it and it was a very, you know, you could, you could hear a pin drop, right? It was a, it was a quiet moment. And then a couple of the other men in our community chimed in and said, I'm concerned too, and here's where I am. And I was where you were. And being on the other side, like you said, there is nothing quite like that. There's nothing quite like someone that is through what you've been through, saying, I've been where you are. I'm in a different place now. And I can tell you it's better. I can tell you it's better. And, and you're, you're not going to die because a part of you really feels like you're going to die. You know, that that fear of being alone is a major driver of human behavior. I mean, that's not a minor thing. That is a major thing. And it can feel like potential death. It can feel really, really, really terrifying. And again, you know, we come back to sort of being in community and having the right mentorship and support is often the difference between being able to make the leap and just staying where you are, just. Just staying stuck and staying complacent. There's a word that one of one of our clients, you know, that I'll share, that he said was in my marriage, I felt subjugated. I felt subjugated and beaten down for years. And this man was able to make that leap. He was able to. To end that marriage. And. And then in our work together, essentially, he was able to claim his power in a different way, such that he is now in the best relationship of his life. The best, healthiest, most connected love relationship that he never thought was possible. Right. It's like, oh, my God, I can actually share who I am and what I want. And I'm met. I'm not shamed. I'm not told that I'm stupid or wrong or laughed at. Right. Humiliated. I'm actually supported. And she wants to know who I am. She wants to know all of me, you know, and I want to know all of her. But I. I'm. I am also here. I am also seen. I am also in this relationship. You know, I feel witnessed. Right. It's like I'm. I'm present in a way that I was not. You know, just like you said, all of the attention was on the other. Was on his spouse for that. For that length of time. And I think that's, you know, a testament to how much is possible on the other side of this. Right. It's like you can go from feeling subjugated, which is a pretty strong word, to feeling seen and loved and safe. You know, there's that word, safe. I think that's when you're walking on eggshells, you don't feel safe basically, ever. There's a. There's a sense of constant vigilance around. Waiting. Yeah. Waiting for that shoe to drop, because you know it's going to. It's happened enough times by now that you're just a part of you is on edge all the time. And that's really hard on your body, mind. It's really hard to stay in that state. And so, you know, I remember him saying something like, it's just really amazing to be able to be myself, to just. To just be myself, to just be around his. His new partner, his partner that he's with now and just feel like I'm really myself. I'm all of me. I don't have to cut off parts of me or say things a certain way or, you know, be perfect, like, try to be perfect. I can Be me. I can be more relaxed. I can just be me. And it's. It's not, you know, of course he's still working on things with his new partner, but the baseline is different. The baseline is not fear.

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. It's. It's possible to shift this and that. That's the good news. And that's part of why we wanted to, you know, presence. This is. We do work with a lot of nice guys, so we see this pattern coming up, and it's something nice guys, I think, in particular, need to be aware of. And, you know, that said, you know, if a partner is BPD or gets a diagnosis, it is actually something you can work with if the partner is willing to. It doesn't mean, like, it's over forever, but they need to be willing to kind of step in and do their work. And that's going to be a lot easier if you've already stepped in and are doing your work, is what we've often seen. And that, you know, the community and the mentorship part, then, you know, the last part I'll speak to is just. It's kind of more the training part of you just got to learn how to set boundaries and what they are. And one thing, you know, I'm always explaining to our guys when we talk to them about you in particular, is you have a gift for how to frame these really challenging conversations to be as conducive to connection as possible. Right. And so men, it's not like you give them a script, but they get the sense in their bones of like, oh, here's how this conversation could go. Right? Here's a structure. Here's a frame I can bring in. And that often is a game changer then for nice guys to have a little confidence. Right. To. Okay, I kind of. I worked this out with Mel or Jason or the men's group. And so now I can go have this difficult conversation, and if it doesn't go well, I have somewhere to land. I can talk to them, debrief it, and if it does go well, I get to celebrate with them. Right. Because I've just advocated for myself. And we've often seen. Right. As men start advocating for themselves more in relationships, lo and behold, they start to do the same thing in their work life as well. And things can change really fast when you start to build up the skill set.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I. I want to say something about, you know, we. We've been working with a number of clients lately who are married and came to us to improve the polarity in their relationship. And it's really encouraging. And I think one of the, one of the differences that we've seen is the men who are coming to us, whose partners do not have borderline.

Jason Lange: Often.

Melanie Curtin: As, as the men that we're working with, they're stepping more into their power, they're leading more. They're asserting themselves in healthy ways. Right? They're having brave and vulnerable conversations. The women feel comforted. They feel comforted. They feel polarized. You know, they feel appreciative of his leadership. They feel. They want more. You know, there's a, there's a sense of, yeah, coming into balance. Like, yes, I want, I want this. I want your power. I want your truth. I want all of you. And I'm comforted by knowing what you need. I'm comforted by you advocating for yourself and hearing more about your world. And it's like, it's, it's, it's slotting in, in a new way, right? It's upgrading the whole relationship. We've also worked with men who, you know, are in a relationship and they start asserting themselves and, and it's volatile and she doesn't like it. And she doesn't, you know, and it's like, well, there you go. There's the difference. Like, not every woman is going to respond well to you asserting yourself. But there' litmus test, you know, are you with someone who can hear you? Are you with someone who does want to know your truth? Are you with someone who is available or do. Is there a boundary that needs to be set? And I think that's something that I've, I've been encouraged by in a lot of the, the clients we've worked with who are coming in, you know, in a marriage where they're saying, yeah, I want things to be better with my spouse. And then we, we, we teach what we teach and we work with them. And it's like, wow, yeah, look at their relationship flourish, look at their relationship thrive. Look at all the different ways that they're able to meet each other. Now, which is, which is, which contrasts with. If you, if you are with a partner who's not willing to engage, you know, you're not going to get that response. So I, it's, it's not a one size fits all thing. And it's also, it's just really interesting to see that, that difference. It's very clear, right? It's like, sometimes men will share things. I'm like, that's a yellow flag. You know, that's what you're describing is like, oh, no, that's a red flag versus wow, that's a green. That's a green flag. Right? You showed up this way or you led in this way with your wife. And she, she really liked it and she appreciated it. And, you know, I remember one of our. What did she say? She said something like, I never knew our marriage could be this good. Like, like that. It was really, really sweet to receive that feedback from her. It was through a variety series of events. But getting to hear the feedback from his wife was really special and really. Yeah, just really lovely. So it, it, it is. It is part of what is helpful about having mentors and people with a breadth of experience. Right. Of just. We've seen a lot of different men in a lot of different scenarios and versus being in it. Right. And I'm only seeing this. I don't have that same breadth. There's a reason why mentorship is important, right. Of all kinds, and that you can work with someone who's worked with hundreds of people and has some sense of grounding in what. What is normal, what is not, what is, you know, hopeful, what is not and what is possible and what is not. So that you have some kind of guidance around that and some kind of ability to see beyond the. Just the scope of where you are right now. Go ahead.

Jason Lange: I'll just close out with. In, you know, how we created our program, this is what I tell guys as I talk to them on our calls, is there's. There's the three elements which we're really speaking to here that are foundational and I think something unique about how you and I work that not every program does of. We have the coaching, the accountability, the mentorship. So someone who's trained and farther along the path, us, so to speak, community. The other men who you get so much connection and hope and feedback from and then the training, which is, okay, what are the actual things I have to do with my body, mind and my speaking up and boundaries and all that. And when you have all three, all three, change can really happen. And it's not the ephemeral weekend workshop change. It's the long lasting, structural, resilient change of like, okay, yeah, this is a process. And what I've noticed and why we have these three things is that's what it took for me, right, when I had all three of those things. Ah, then my life actually started to change when I was just reading books and trying to do stuff on my own. I never changed. Like, that's the honest truth. I needed all three and then, wow, my life really transformed and the lives of our men really do as well.

Melanie Curtin: So we're going to start to wrap up here and I will drop many of the resources that we mentioned in the show Notes, Stop Walking on Eggshells and a few of the other episodes that are relevant to this. There's one specifically about BPD if you've not heard of it before, and also about specifically about Nice Guy Syndrome. If you are interested in working with us, you can go to Evolutionary Men Apply and you'll find everything that you need there. And if you would like to support the podcast and also be involved in live monthly Q&As with me, you can always join our Patreon. Just Google Patreon Dear Men podcast. It'll come up right away. And if you join at a $10 a month level or more, you will get access to our live Q&As. And you know, speaking of transformation, we are in a cycle of winter right at the moment we just passed the solstice and we're moving into winter. And there is a sense of allowing old things to fall away and composting them, right. There's a period of time when things go dark. All of the leaves fall off the trees. There's darkness. There is. It can look very bleak. And I think that's that, that is a period that a lot of our men have gone through in this pattern that we're talking about of really going into that right. Of the, the allowing, the boundary setting and the allowing and the falling away and the, the fear and the darkness and the, the, the death cycle that that can be. But going through that with others, not being alone in that is the difference between making it and having and getting stuck there, I guess, is I just want to give some love and appreciation to all of you that we have worked with who have been there for others through this, through the darkness, through the dark periods. And if you are someone who is in a dark period right now, just to know that it doesn't last forever and that it is possible to compost what is happening and to come out stronger and brighter and with more resilience and more hope and at a higher level. Right. At an upgraded level, I think that's really what, what we do when we compost the old that isn't working in our lives is we actually graduate to a new level of awareness and of consciousness and there's a lot of joy to be had there. So wanted to, to end with that and we will see you next.