Jason Lange: All right, and welcome back. Pumped to be once again joined by my man at arms, Dr. Luke Adler, the co facilitator of our Heart of Shadow program. And we're doing something a little bit different today, which is we're going to comment and really kind of dive deeper into something that was passed along to us from a friend of ours. And that was a recent episode of the podcast Diary of a CEO. And they had on experts Logan Ury, who's a kind of men and women's dating coach, and Scott Galloway, who a lot of people know is kind of an entrepreneurial leader, but has increasingly been speaking up about many of the struggles young men in particular are facing in this day and age, economically, educationally, and particularly relationally. And so Luke and I want to just talk a little bit about what they were pointing out today and really highlight a lot of what we think they got right and a lot of what they just maybe missed because they're not quite in the work in the same way that Luke and I are. And, you know, between the two of us, we've been working with men for decades. And the crisis they really kind of pointed out was one about, you know, jobs and college rates and dating struggles, kind of the external factors. But, you know, what Luke and I have been pointing to over the last months and years is it's really a crisis of connection, emotional depth and brotherhood. And so we are super excited to dive into this today. And I'll just throw it over to you for seconds to say, hi, Luke.

Luke Adler: Yeah, great to be here. And when I got this, when I got this podcast, I was, I was intrigued. These are some thought leaders in masculinity and dating. And, you know, these are areas that Jason and I have expertise in, particularly around the depth of what it takes to really develop health and well being as a man and as a man who's interested in dating and, and deep relationship and really grateful that, that, you know, these two spoke out and gave some poignant statistics on, on dating, on birth rates, on kind of economic implications of dating trends right now that are important to digest. And I think if you don't know what they are, you might just think, hey, everything's fine. You know, everything's the way it was 20 years ago when I got into relationship. And the truth is, things have changed dramatically. The culture is very different. And as my eyes have been opened wide to particularly men in their 20s to 35, this is a group of men who are, you know, the way they orient towards dating is. Is night and day. It is totally surprising to dating when I was younger. So we want to get into some of these things, some of these things that they shared and make them more known and really offer our perspective. You know, our perspective is about depth, it's about authenticity, it's about skill, it's about leadership. And I think, you know, Scott and Logan made some really great points. And then, you know, there's a way that they don't lead men's work at a really deep level. They're talking about more data driven things, trends, experience from their own kind of experiential interviews, so to speak. And so we want to. We want to fill that in with a little more color and provide actually a more nuanced, specific direction for men, a direction that we not just think, but really have seen. This is what men are missing. And in some ways, I would say just off the bat, you know, some of the things I heard from both of the presenters is kind of a return to some traditional masculine values that are known to be healthy and good. And really what Jason and I heard offers, those are fine to be protective and to be strong and to be kind, but there's actually a way masculinity is evolving and it's going further than it's ever been before and deeper. And that's the thing that we really want to. We really want to comment on and make clear for y'. All.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And so I just wanted to take a moment to kind of highlight, I think, some of the things they got right and which to me was actually really cool and kind of mind blowing to hear some of this stuff on a pretty mainstream, in a Sense podcast with quite a huge listenership. First, just again, really highlighting that the crisis is real. Loneliness, suicide, education gap, job losses. These are real things for men. You know, it's a pretty crazy stat. It's like 80% of suicides are men. Women are now earning nearly 60% of all bachelor's degrees. Over 5 million manufacturing jobs have been lost in the US since 2000, which tended to predominantly be men for a long time. 40% increase in males between the age of 16 and 24 who are, like, not in an educational pathway or employed. And we've talked a lot about, you know, in 1993% of men reported having no close friends. In 2021 it was up to 15%. And there is this also what they've talked about, increasing gap in the dating pool, so to speak, for, particularly for heterosexual couples. This is something I've talked about a lot in my dating and relationship programs, which is there's actually a scarcity of men doing the work, so to speak. And I don't necessarily blame men for that. Right. Women's liberation movement kind of started in the late 50s and 60s and came first a little bit. And men's work, you know, there was a bit of a burst of men's work in the 60s and then again in the 90s, but it's a little farther behind. And I've been involved with and led a lot of co ed work around relationships. And particularly once you hit the age of like 35 and above, you start going into those spaces, it's full of women who are like, where are all the conscious men? Like where are the men who are actually doing their work? And the interesting thing about that, that they were kind of pointing out too was if you are one of those men, suddenly you're a rare commodity and you are actually the scarce resource in a lot of sense. But all these distortions then happen in the dating pool in a sense because what we tend to see is it's like, tends to right now focus mostly on, you know, financial success that like, or, or, or a certain type of looks like 10% of the men, particularly in the online dating sphere, kind of gobble up all the connections and dates and the rest of the men are just left dry. And I've worked with many men like that who literally send out hundreds of messages a month and rarely get a swipe or a date. And it's painful, it's brutal. Um, and then on the, you know, on the other side, yeah, you have um, just women who can put up an online profile and get a thousand messages in a week. And it's like, where do I even start? Well, people tend to go down the totem pole and sort on the most superficial surface level stuff, um, and the one that really blew me away, they were talking about and that was like, it's something like, I think they said like 90% of women put a six foot tall filter on their, on their things. And it's only something like, I think he said like 13% of men are 6ft or above. And it's just like right there you're already kind of messing things up. But anyway, so they, they presenced a lot of the truth around the pain and the widening gap I think we've seen show up in our, in our culture and world where for a lot of men, they just don't know how to participate in the current system in a way that they can win in some sense. Many men you and I have worked with, they don't want to be the macho, me too guy and they've tried the, the nice guy, friendly, safe thing and none of them are working and they're left in pain. And then we pair that with another thing they really did a great job of highlighting of just the lack of masculine role models and father figures in a lot of our culture. You know, with here in the west, there's kind of a gift in the curse of we have the gift of differentiation, meaning we can easily differentiate from pathological family systems in ways that weren't really possible back in the day. It was like you were just kind of stuck in your family system. Now more than ever, people can separate from that and become their own entities, live in different parts of the country, be very independent. And the same thing lands true for marriage and relationships. You know, the cultural gravity of religion was like, oh yeah, once you're married, you're in, so you got to make it work. Now we've kind of gone to the other side where it's like, oh, it's not working, I'm out, it's not working, I'm out. And that causes a lot of issues as well. And just in general, men are being left behind in the current systems. There's an overwhelming emphasis on economics and financial purchase power that Scott did a good job of, I think highlighting. And that was just wild to hear. Logan, she's like, the reason I came on this podcast was to promote this idea of these things called men's groups, which I was like, whoa, that's, that's something we, we have little currency in and are certainly part of the missing piece. The other thing I really wanted to name that whether or not they mentioned it or this led me to it was a kind of a mind blowing fact I saw particularly around suicides. And maybe it was them who mentioned it, but yeah, and I kind of fell prey to this. That, you know, most people assume that men who died by suicide never asked for help. But the truth is the facts, actually the stats show 60% had reached out in some capacity to a mental health professional, to a clergyman, to something. But something in the current paradigm isn't actually landing for men in their pain where they're At. So they, many times they have tried to reach out, but what was offered back to them didn't quite hit in the way they needed. And I think that's a big part of what you and I have been exploring together.

Luke Adler: Yeah, they hammered across so much data. I think that data piece on, on the dating thing that blew me away was you had mentioned, you know, women can, can dial in exactly the color and the shape and the. Everything about a man. And the two stats that women pick, like you said, over 6ft tall and making over 100 grand. And then the stat was that that's 2% of men in America. So it's created this culture, this interesting culture. The word is hypergamy, where you have, you know, if you're a man in that category that all women want, I mean, you're, you're a kid in a candy store. These men are just, they have no incentive to settle down, so they're having sex with beautiful women all the time. And that's created this strange culture where, you know, kind of this, this top echelon of men just kind of aren't committing. They're not the men that women want because they, they can, there's, there's no incentive for them to, to, to commit. And then women feel like, hey, you know, I'm, I, I want to be with someone who's like, at least horizontal and above, so why would I even entertain a guy who's, who's below that threshold? And so you just have men who aren't even getting a chance. And like you said, I can'.

Jason Lange: That.

Luke Adler: But it's like, you know, men have to, men have to swipe, right? I'm not going to get this right, but let's say 50 times, and out of 50 times, they maybe get one coffee and they have to get 10 coffees to get a second date, right? So like you said, it's created this culture where men have gotten used to being rejected over and over and over and over again. Like when you and I were in the game, you know, it wasn't like that. It was like there's this organicness around going to an authentic relating event or a yoga class or whatever, you know, college. And it was like the spirit of connection that would kind of arise, and that was central. And what digitized dating has done is just obliterated that and really made it, made it, made it a meat market of selecting traits that you like. And, and then you kind of have to discover whether there's chemistry or connection or even depth or matchability. And it's done these really interesting things to younger men, which has become evident in our work, where we'll work with guys between 20 and 35 who say they're afraid to approach a woman because they don't want to seem predatorial. They don't want to seem like a me too guy, a macho guy. And there's so much emphasis and consent that you have this group of men that are not hesitant because they don't want to have sex and they don't want to procreate and they don't want to date. They're hesitant because culturally, they've been taught to be extra careful. Whereas you and I, in our generation, we don't have that conditioning. Like, I don't feel that at all. I'd approach a woman, you know, in almost any setting if I was interested, have no worry about being portrayed as predatorial. And if I was, I'd still be confident in, like, no, I'm not. This is, like, what my interest is. And there's nothing wrong with having an interest in sexuality. And I like that. Scott was very emphatic about that. One of his points about procreation was, it's okay to want to have sex. It's okay to want to create life, to want to step towards someone and be open and. And, you know, I like. I like his stance on that and how he stood around. Around men, you know, stepping into that. And I'm a real champion of that. Stepping out of the app, stepping out of the kind of technocratic culture around relationship fuck that. You like someone, go up to them in the supermarket, go up to them in the yoga class, break through that. That, you know, fourth wall of tech that says, no, this is the only appropriate channel by which you can approach. And I like Scott's vibe around that. He's kind of clear of, like, you got to take a risk. As the younger people say, you got to shoot your shot. You know, when it's your moment, you got to take it. So those were some powerful things. And then just the implications of, you know, if we're not. If we're not procreate and if we're not dating, like, the birth rates are. Are down tremendously in this country. They use the example of South Korea. Like the birth rates. What is it, like, 0.7 for. For people under 35? Like, there's major implications to the future of society and our ability to sustain ourselves if we're not having babies. It reminds me of the movie Children of Men, where people just stop procreating and you're like, there's no. Like, humanity's over because we're not having children anymore, and we're not at that level. But there's this. There's this way in which we're so careful and we're so kind of. There's so much disequity between men and women for financial reasons and kind of what is attractive anymore that we're in this interesting place around culture. And of course, that's reflected politically. Like, we have these very kind of strange choices around what masculinity is, you know, and neither of them are really appealing to men. And women is like, wait, what is. What is masculinity? You know, we don't. We're all kind of aversive to what's being presented at the level of. Of culture, which brings you and I into play here. You know, what we do.

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. And I have. I have a few bullet points, I think, that cover a little bit of, from our perspective, maybe a bit of what they missed or where they were just not quite in their place of genius as kind of studiers of the culture of men's work, but not necessarily immersed in it quite as deep. And one, I think you and I would both argue is emotional literacy is a primary, not a secondary problem in that this is a thing that hits men from a very young age. I've talked about it ad nauseam on my podcast. You've talked about it. The kind of man box, the patriarchy, this idea that as men, we are taught masculinity is invulnerability. And one of the best ways to be invulnerable is to dissociate from your body and your emotions. And that. That causes all kinds of downstream pain and impact for men that causes them to feel lost, to feel depressed, to get addicted. And that this literacy piece is core, I would say, to pretty much everything. And it's something we're pretty big champions of that. You know, it's hard to take care of yourself if you can't even name the pain you're in, in a sense. And that is the struggle a lot of men, a lot of men work with in that kind of following that all the way. You know, we've seen it because you and I have worked with these men. You can't solve heart problems with a paycheck, right? Like, you can make all the fucking money in the world, create all the big companies, and something inside of you is still in deep, deep turmoil and pain. And so this emotional literacy thing, I think is a primary problem and something that we're definitely addressing. And I think more men's work leaders are stepping into the, the loneliness thing. Yeah, it's not just a side effect. Again, it's like a, a primary thing that so many of the structures where men used to bond are kind of evaporating and being wiped away. And we're moving to this kind of hyper digital culture where there's like parasocial relationships. I follow this person feels like intimacy, but it's not intimacy. And that, you know, we've talked about it before. You know, one of the main way ways men bond is through doing hard shit in our bodies together. And as we move to more and more virtual, that becomes a harder thing. Right. A far more challenging thing. And you know, here in the West, I mean just our whole system is kind of set up for privacy, aloneness. I've talked about this. It's like the American dream is to live separate from. Never have to talk to anyone or be bothered by everyone. It's this hyper privatization, I think is a big thing they didn't really talk enough about. And then, you know, another one I was really thinking about was the economic status thing, you know, that it's like, oh, get, you know, once you make a certain amount of job and feel good about yourself, then you can like show up, have a certain job, make a certain amount of money. Like your well being will kind of come from that. And there's some truth right around being able to hold your own. But I think what they miss too, which we're on the, I would say edge of, is well actually if you. What's going to make you the most successful is developing a deep, present, embodied and well regulated nervous system. Because that is what actually has people trust you and want to give you money and allows you to move through the world and create a lot of these opportunities. And it's a core level thing, right? It's not, it's the, the pain point I see so many guys I work with come to is like, well, I want to set the goals so I can achieve the thing, so I can feel better. And they're almost always setting themselves up to fail. Because if your nervous system is like, if you're dysregulated and in pain and not healthy, it's going to be 10,000 times harder to achieve those things. But when we get our nervous system handled and regulated first, it's much easier. There's just like a natural energy that comes through the body. You and I have talked about for Taking action or taking risks or whatever that might be. And I know I got a bunch here, but I'm just going to keep spitting fire here. Yeah, the dating crisis, right? It's not just like a high standards things. It's a crisis of depth. Women want depth. Not just depth financially. That is a surface level marker that ideally points to an interior depth. That a man that can handle conflict, relate well to people, can be a meaningful part of his culture and society. Those men tend to garner resources, but they're not. The reason they're getting those resources is because of their depth. Right. People trust them, feel safe around them. And so we need deeper and more emotionally present men who. And I think this is maybe where Scott kind of bumps up to some of his limits. Logan was speaking to it a little bit more that one of the new challenges for us men is fluidity is required. It's not enough to just go out and fucking provide anymore. We have worked with dozens of men and I've talked to hundreds of men who stepped on the escalator, busted ass, working hard, paying the bills, but were never in the house, did not raise their kids, had no romantic connection with their wife. Kids hit 18, wife's out, she's like, we don't have a relationship. I don't even know who you are. I don't love you. And he's like, well, I thought I was doing what I supposed to. No, we need both now. We have to have that fluidity to change diapers and kick ass, show up relationally for our woman, do the fucking dishes. Like, it is more work, right? I think that's the thing. You know, a lot of men are like. But it's like, yeah, and women have to do more work too, in their own ways. And just final two things, the kids thing, you know, having less kids, I can tell you in the work I do, one of the reasons for that is a lot of kids had a pretty shitty experience growing up. And they're like, I don't want to do that unless I know I can give my child a better experience than I did. And I see this time and time again. That kind of. What I want to point to here is there's a lot of forces against why I think many men I work with are reluctant to start families, because when we do, we want to do it well. And so we want to have the inner work done to not recapitulate all the shit that was put onto us from our lineage. And we want to have a certain amount of capacity that we know we can take care of them. And it takes a lot to raise kids these days. If both parents are working full time, how do we be present for the kids? And you know, there is this kind of, I would say a bit of a conservative backlash to like, we got to go back to the, the family unit. You know, men work all the time. That way women can be present. And the thing I just want to name for that is same thing here. You know, it's just anecdotal, but I've worked with hundreds of guys who were raised in that family unit and they were profoundly up by it because the unit itself is, does not necessitate healthy at all. Now, is there a power to that structure? Yes, but it in itself will not do it. So many men I've worked with, extremely damaged, living in a household with a mom and a dad in the traditional nuclear family and completely broken. And then final thing in this rant here is I think they could have done more to talk about just like initiation and ritual and brotherhood that, you know, part of what has melted away is, yeah, there's, there's not a whole lot of places for men to go to literally be led from boyhood to manhood, like, hey, let's initiate you, let's bring you over the fold, let's give you hard and loving feedback. And that is definitely something I think the men's work world is stepping pretty intensely into to fill that gap. And certainly you and I have been doing as well. So I just put like 8,000 things on the board there. So I'm just going to hand it off to you. Easy. Easy to take the torch there.

Luke Adler: Yeah, I mean, I mean, the modern initiation really for men is just sports, you know, and that's still the kind of, there's a few domains that men get to exist in, right? It's like making money, career and sports. And it's like, well, whatever, whatever town, you know, major city is near you, that's your team, whether it's collegiate or it's professional. And that's what we talk about. That's the modern day kind of gladiatorship of, you know, it's so weird now that you and I are in a, you know, our middle age. It's like we're obsessed with these like 18 to 24 year old men who are throwing a ball or kicking a ball. And it's like we're just, we just love these men, right? And it's like these are boys that we're obsessed with and we want to wear their jerseys and then of course, once they're 27, 28, they're not as good at their sports and, you know, they're washing out. And unless you're Tom Brady, you know, we're, we're just like, who's the next 19 year old star in a sport? You know, and it's, it gets a little strange, you know, just from a kind of what we value standpoint, let alone the pressure. Like, my daughter's 10 years old and her ballet teacher wants her there 12 hours a week and says she's going to be a professional. And I'm like, yo, all I want my daughter to do is know how to exercise when she's older. I don't want her obsessed with her hair and her goddamn makeup all day and how she's looking in the mirror when she's on bar.

Jason Lange: Right?

Jason Lange: Yeah. So much great stuff there in the. Creating healthy families. You know, that's certainly, I think, part of our mission. You know, I've been saying it lately is like, healthy men get into healthy relationships, create healthy families or participate in healthy community. And that's really kind of what we're talking about. And I think what they were missing a little bit that my sense is you were really tuning into because. Right. Even that stat about. I think they had a statistic that was something about like, the number one thing that ends a lot of marriages are when a man loses his job. And like, that's the number one thing that'll often split it up. In my sense, my projection is right. Scott saying that's because of he lost his job. But it. I think what you and I know is. No, it's actually the shame underneath that, that it's when a man collapses around his pain of this expectation of I have to be a provider and he doesn't know how to handle his pain and the shame takes over. That's when he becomes unavailable for relationship. And that is what drives it apart. If a man had more of this emotional literacy and capacity and training like we do. Okay, I got knocked down there it's painful. And I know how to resource myself to stay available to you, my spouse, to my kids, my community, and to get support so I can keep moving forward. I think that's the big thing we're really pointing to here in that, you know, men's groups, particularly like our shadow work group, really get, you call it in your work and your books, you know, this core level awakening. It's the thing underneath all the surface stuff. It's actually what drives the surface stuff. It's the, you know, the losing the job job is the tip of the iceberg above the water. It's all of the emotional structures underneath that actually are the. The root of it. And that's the thing that they didn't speak to quite as much, I think, as we've actually seen, because like we said, we've worked with the guys who are making a lot of money, and that doesn't touch this. Now, is it better more or less in society to be making that money than not? Yeah, yeah. We want to create those structures for men because it gives you more resource, but it doesn't necessarily touch that thing. Underne men's groups can do that. Shadow work and emotional healing can absolutely do that. This process of moving from numbing to feeling to embodying does that. That we really lead men to. And getting this brotherhood in literally getting love back online for men, that brings forth a new type of, you know, masculinity that, yeah, hasn't really been seen before. I think is so key in, you know, one way I was thinking about this. To tie it all together is, I think part of the challenge for men right now is, you know, they talked a lot about the structural stuff, and there's some real truth to automation, to AI. A lot of the kind of manual labor, you know, they're not actually connected, but there it is right there in the word manual labor. You know, different. Different routes. But these things that, you know, as men, we used to be rewarded from doing, generally doing with our body, was kind of how we succeeded in the world that is increasingly going away. Any job or task that requires repetition, like just doing the same thing over, that's all going away. That's all going to the bots, whether they're virtual or real. And what we've been seeing in cultures like ours here in the United States is a shift to more services and relational work. Right. This is where you're actually interacting with people, and that is an area men are tremendously underdeveloped in. Right. Our relational capacity is kind of the new precious resource. And just because of the way culture has played out, yes, some biological components can contribute to it, but women tend to be more predisposed to relationality and have a little bit more of a skill set and know how to communicate and deal with people whose energies are all over the place. As men, we're rarely taught that, and we're being asked to step into that now as more and more jobs and positions involve that. And in a lot of ways, you know, this is the big shift that the masculine is being confronted with, which is shifting from all of our emphasis and worth and validity coming from what we're doing to now. It's about how we're being right. That's the new currency. How are you being in the world, in your job, in your relationship? And that's where, you know, I think a lot of their diagnoses were right, but some of the prescriptions aren't quite deep enough. I think that's the thing that's like, yeah, you can get out there and do that as a. As a kid, as a young man, and it's not necessarily going to get you. You what you want. Right. What we're offering, I would argue through men's work and men's groups and emotional fluidity and evolving this idea of masculinity, it will get you there. I mean, it's a work in progress. We're trying to figure it out as we go. You know, we don't have all the answers, but we. We're seeing the needle move for men. Right. Of all across the spectrum, from the young guys who feel totally lost to the older men who followed the script and are still. Still ended up suffering and in pain that, okay, there's something underneath that. That frankly, therapy and coaching don't quite get to, but something about the work we're doing in groups really does seem to really land.

Luke Adler: Yeah, it was cringe. I think that's why I reached out to you, Jason, because it. It was cringy when I heard this emphasis on, you know, pursue excellence, make a lot of money, and. And, you know, and then, you know, he admitted that he gets critiqued for it and start drinking some more, you know, drink more alcohol. It was like, okay, but, like, what do we do it here with this message? You know, because, you know, we have these examples of, like, men, lots of men that we've worked with who make a ton of money and who have suffered profoundly in relationship and money didn't do it for them, and excellence didn't do it for Them, you know, it was like all of these underdeveloped parts of their emotional, well, beings were what was getting triggered in relationship or keeping them from relationship or causing relationships to fail. And so in that sense, I cringed for any young man who was listening to that podcast and went, oh, fuck. Like, I need to triple down on my associate's degree or my, you know, bachelor's degree or a master's degree, or I got to go for a PhD because I have to pursue excellence around being able to make money and provide and become that man that, you know, it's like, okay, dude, you're a professor at nyu. You're a near billionaire, and you're telling men what you've done. Like. Like, that's great. Like, you know, I'm talking about Scott Galloway. Like, you know, in some ways, you're just projecting your formula. Like, that's wonderful.

Jason Lange: Most.

Luke Adler: First of all, most men are never going to be able to attain that. And I acknowledge that. You know, at the end, he softened around. You know, just get a job and be dependable and, you know, manage money well. I was like, okay, thank you for offering that in the last 10 minutes of the podcast.

Jason Lange: Right?

Luke Adler: But the bigger point that you and I are making is money's not enough. It's not enough. And, like, guys, you don't have to go out there and make a ton and pursue excellence. If you want to pursue excellence in something, pursue excellence of your own being. Pursue the excellence of knowing yourself emotionally, of knowing yourself in terms of your trauma history, your wounding and conditioning. That's the stuff that's going to absolutely train wreck your future relationships. And we work with men all the time who are like, I wish I had had these skills. I wish I could pause around my shame. You know, I wish I would have done this differently in this relationship. And, you know, if you're a super stud who's making so much damn money and you can choose whatever you want, then I actually kind of feel sorry for you in a certain way because you're relegated to almost this monarchy class where actually the world revolves around you and you don't have to grow. Like, there's this example of Prince Philip, which I think is, you know, one of the. One of the. Not Harry, but Harry's brother's son. And they bring Prince Philip six eggs every morning, and Prince Philip will only eat the two eggs that are perfect, and then they throw the four eggs away. Like, yeah, this is what it's like. To be on the very top is actually your idiosyncrasies. Are created, are cratered, are catered to, are catered to. Right? And, and you're not, you're not asked to grow or change. Actually. Society revolves around you and your proclivities and your kind of underdeveloped issues and this is what's happening for like super wealthy. Like, look at, look at Elon Musk, right? Like, I mean, I don't have to go deep into criticism here, but here's a guy who treats people really poorly, who's done some pretty shitty things to a lot of Americans and you know, he doesn't have to deal with it because he has so much money and gets to exist in this shelter. Now he is suffering to some degree, I mean relatively with how many billions of dollars he has now that he's up Tesla. But my point is, is that, you know, men like that, who, who have reached this kind of upper echelon, they're in this place that's actually pretty deleterious for their well being, which is growth isn't something that they have to look at, you know, and, and ultimately the real currency, the ultimate currency, the only currency that we have, the real wealth, I say this often, is the love you create, the love you give and the love that you generate when you leave this body, you know, and, and that's all we've got. That's all we've got. That's the only thing in my sense that actually lives beyond your body, you know, and I know I'm getting a little esoteric here, but, but if you ask, if you ask anyone what matters most to you, no one's going to save money. And if they do, it's not coming from any place of joy.

Jason Lange: You know, there's right the countless research of people terminal at the end of their life and it's always the same message. I wish I hadn't worked as much and I wish I'd spent more time with people I love. I think that really sums it up. And so, you know, again, super grateful for Scott and Logan and Steve, the host of that podcast, for bringing these issues forward because they are important. I think maybe we'll just end with, you know, if we want to generation of men to thrive again, you know, it's not just about the surface. It can't just be about better test scores, a fitter body or a bigger paycheck. Like it's the deeper hearts, it's community, it's being able to feel and stand strong. And that's what I would say. We're champions for and if you want to, you know, check that out with Luke and I, you can learn about our program, the Heart of Shadow, which is a really incredible men's group experience we've created for guys that will take you probably deeper than if you've ever been before. You can find out more about me at Evolutionary Men. And you're @lukeadlerhealing, is that correct? Com.

Luke Adler: Yeah.lukeadlerhealing. com. Yeah.

Jason Lange: If you're interested in working with me around dating, relationships or your masculine presence in the world, just go to Evolutionary Men. Apply.