Navigating High-Conflict Divorce for Men (with Karen McMahon)

Jason Lange: All right, and welcome back, everyone. Today I am super excited to be joined by Karen McMahon. She's a high conflict divorce strategist, certified divorce coach, and founder of Journey Beyond Divorce. She actually began divorce coaching back in 2010 after recognizing that the pain of her divorce led her on a transformational journey into a powerful and unexpected new life. And she leads a team, a national team of divorce coaches and supporting men and women around the world to become calm, clear, and confident as they navigate divorce. And she's also the host of the acclaimed Journey Beyond Divorce podcast and someone I had the pleasure of meeting earlier this year at a men's conference and kind of gravitated to her like a moth to the flame. As I often get to work with guys on the inside of kind of what's happening around divorce and am usually totally at a loss for how to support them in the actual process of it, as it's not something I've gone through. So I'm really excited to have you here today, Karen, so we can kind of talk about some of what you've seen in your journey, journey as a divorce coach, in particular, some of what we share with kind of working with nice guys and volatile partners and, you know, a system that I think is, in a lot of ways, just not set up to support men or around this experience. And that you just, you know, totally warms my heart to know you're out there supporting men and women, but particularly men, because that's who I work with. So really excited to have you here.

Karen McMahon: Thank you so much. I'm excited for the conversation. I love educating people about this process because if you've never been in it, it's like a foreign land. And it's the number one greatest transition that we go through as adults because it's so multidimensional, and so it's as equally overwhelming as it is multi dimensional.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And I really love that you highlight that in terms of not only the outer journey, but the inner journey of. Right. For a lot of people, this is one of the most significant shifts they'll make in their lives in terms of recontextualizing their primary relationship, their family, their finances, like, quite a. Quite a bit, actually, and then even more so if they have children involved and so can you just tell, tell the guys a little bit of kind of what you've ended up specializing in, in particular with some of the men you work with?

Karen McMahon: Yeah, so I work largely in the more volatile. I'll refer to it as high conflict divorce. And so often the men who come to me have really struggled making the decision to leave, or perhaps their partner doesn't decided to leave. And either way they're on their ear. So for my men who decide there's so much guilt and shame. And unlike my women, in high conflict divorce, men are often so concerned about their spouse. Like there's this over unhealthy caretaking where you've completely lost your needs, your, your struggles because you're, you're hyper vigilant about helping her or really scared about the kids. And I can't leave because I can't possibly leave my kids alone. And so that's a very big one. And then how do I handle that? And all of these things lead to paralysis. And a big thing that I'll say right off the bat is for anybody who is in an unhealthy marriage and thinks that staying is better for the children. If I could just address this topic right off the bat. Our family of origin is where we learn about intimate love. And so if the intimate love between you and your partner is not an example of what you would like to see your children experience, then you are training them that that intimate love is something other, emotionally disconnected, unhealthy, filled with conflict. Mom and dad don't hold hands, they don't kiss, they don't partner. There's conflict, there's tension, there's stress. Your children will actually grow up and marry that. And so while it's always hard for kids to deal with two households, all of the research shows that children are severely damaged by conflict, significantly more than they're damaged by two households, especially if even one of those households is healthy and emotionally invaluable and intentional. And so I like to put that out right from the beginning because I think that it's this false narrative out there that if you divorce, you're hurting your kids. Not necessarily.

Jason Lange: I love that you speak to that. That's something I've been a champion of before because a lot of times, yeah, I'm working with men who did internalize all that. And one of the first things we do right is go back through what did you have modeled for you? And then it's just, you know, it's like, oh my, of course, I just recreated what I was taught and modeled in a sense. And you know, there are so many guys who, particularly at the age I work with them, which tends to be a little older, you know, or like, I wish my parents had divorced, like. Right. They did stay together. And it, you're right, it didn't do any benefit for any of us. And it actually kind of kept us in that place where no one can heal because it's like you're. You're just resting in the wound and it keeps getting activated over and over again. Versus yeah, the transitions can be really painful and, you know, come with different challenges, but there's a way to move forward there. And I think like you said, the research in particular, if as long as one household as a attuned, safe parent, kids can tend to survive almost anything because they just have somewhere to recover and feel safe in themselves. And. Yeah, I can't. I mean, what you, what you named. I've had many clients who are just so terrified of A, either leaving their kids with their volatile or bpdx or B, if I leave her, I'm afraid she'll hurt herself, she's so unstable. So I gotta stay in. That ends up hurting both people so much. And you know, one of the challenging things is over time, it actually can sometimes enable that part because it keeps the. Keeps both of you stuck in that pain and neither partner can really heal from that. And there's a risk there. But the men I have certainly seen who took the leap and went for it on the other side, they tend to be quite grateful for it 1000%.

Karen McMahon: On the children part, I will just add that one of my missions in the work that I do is breaking generational chains. And when we stay and we teach our children what our parents taught us and what our grandparents taught them, we're just continuing this generational chain. And it could be addiction, it could be alcoholism, it's going to be divorce, it's going to be conflict, it's going to be people pleasing, going to be codependence. And we don't wish any of these things on our children. And so simply by being brave and courageous enough to do what we know is best for ourselves and our children, we impact the generations to come. And. And that to me is priceless.

Jason Lange: To me, it's the most badass warrior thing a human being can do too, is say, you know what, this change stops here. I don't know what's going to happen, but I know I don't want to perpetuate that and that recently I've actually had a number of guys who kind of in that nearing empty nest phase, not quite there, but the thing they're noticing is that really scares them is, oh my God, I'm starting to see all of my bad habits and tendencies showing up in my son and I'm terrified I'm going to send him out in the world and he's going to carry all the same trauma and relational dynamics I am. So what can I do? And you know, in the work I do, it's, well, start on yourself, right? You start changing. It is gonna, it is gonna change your, your, your son or, or kid. But again, I just, yeah, I love the, the, the deeper context you bring to it. I think that's part of why I was so attracted to your work and the energy you're bringing towards it because there's so much depth underneath that. So, you know, guys who often listen to me know, you know, I've trained with Dr. Glover, I work with a lot of so called nice guys. And one thing that does seem to be a reality in the world is, you know, a lot of the work I do is around polarity, right? Masculine and feminine energy. But polarity can exist in all kinds of ways. And one polarity that does seem to show up a lot is nice guy, white knight, people pleaser, hero, savior, and highly volatile or unstable partner. And it's not necessarily the most positive polarity, but it does tend to show up that these two people will often attract each other. And when you said you worked, you know, particularly with those high conflict or highly volatile ones, you know, I would say probably, I've probably had two dozen clients over the years who, you know, in the process of educating themselves whether or not their partners had a clinical diagnosis of bpd, had strong tendencies that made it very challenging to build any kind of stable relationship with each other. And so, yeah, one of the things I was really hoping you could kind of speak towards is to demystify that process a little bit for men, to just give them some ideas around getting, you know, what do they need to have their eyes wide open around as they, as they entered the process of potentially unwinding a relationship like that with a partner who has sometimes no boundaries or who every time you talk to them, the rules of the game have changed. So how do you even come to agreements on things? You know, and I think that's where professionals really have to come in and why I wanted to get you on here.

Karen McMahon: You know, it, it's so confusing. It's so utterly confusing. And what we do is we try to wrap our rational brain around something that is not rational at all, right? And so I've got a number of clients who are divorcing someone who are on a spectrum, whether it's bpd, narcissistic personality disorder. And so there are these tendencies that we experience. Now. We. And I was married to someone on the narcissistic spectrum. So any human being, man or woman, there is this. We fall in love with the wounds of our parents, right? And so if I come from a household, in my case, my dad was an alcoholic. My mom was a rage aholic. Very unconscious, both of them. And so my husband was this perfect combination of mom and dad shortcomings. And we fall in love thinking we found our soulmate because it's so familiar. It's just on an unconscious level. It's like, I'm home. And of course, they don't show up displeasing in the beginning. So you're thinking that you're falling in love with just the charisma or the love bombing or whatever. And then these individuals, whatever their issues are, tend to be severely manipulative, right? So there's gaslighting. I want to speak to the wife who has or appears to be bpd. A lot of times they'll even threaten suicide. And. And so that's so scary. My spouse did, and I was like, oh my God. My kids might come home and see dad, like hanging from the rafters or something, like, scared hell out of you. And so I'm going to give a tip right off the bat. I was given this tip many years ago. If your spouse threatens suicide, ask her if she has a plan. Call 911. The other thing about these personalities is their public Persona is vitally important. You have two cop cars and two ambulances showing up once, and they will not play that game again. If it's a game and if it's true, you've just saved their life. So you protect yourself and you protect them, and you probably diminish the possibility of this happening again, like by 90%. And that's a big thing that a lot of us deal with. That. That's one of the things that they'll do is, oh, my God. And especially these women there, they believe they're. They can't live without you, and you're the person you. It's going to fall apart and you believe it. So my second thing is how, when you think about how you think about your wife and interact with her, how old is she? Are you treating her like one of your kids? Is she another 12 year old in your household? Or are you treating her like the grown ass woman that she is? And if you want to say yeah, but Karen, she actually has a lot of trauma. Yes, absolutely. Look at two men who come from an alcoholic dad. One is an alcoholic, the other is, is a successful entrepreneur. And you ask them why and the alcoholic says because my dad's an alcoholic. And the successful entrepreneur says because my dad's an alcoholic alcoholic. We have choice. No matter what spectrum your spouse is on, she has choice. And the other thing that I think is so powerful is when you pick somebody up and carry them, caretake them, enable them, act codependently for as long and far as you carry them, you have stolen that time and space from their life for them to hit their rock bottom and do their work. And so if you truly, truly care about the mother of your children, let her go, let her crash, let her find her way. You will be doing her, you and your children, the best that you can do for you.

Jason Lange: Yeah, guys just want to double click that. So important I think particularly for nice guys. And you know, it's an interesting, there's an interesting dovetail here sometimes that I just want to speak to, you know, with love to, to some of the nice guys I've worked with around this of in itself that kind of hero complex is a type of narcissism, right. That oh, oh, I am the only one that can save her or keep her alive. Right. There's, there's like a bit of a inflate in self inflation that happens there. And what I hear you kind of just soberly piercing is no, you're actually robbing your partner of their chance to grow into mature. Whether or not they do that, that's outside of, you know, your realm when it, when it happens there. But if you keep enabling some of the behavior, they never even get the chance. And that dynamic, right. I've seen guys stay in that for decades, just decades. And you're, I think you, the way you said it of you know, you've robbed, you've both been robbed of a certain type of time because instead of actually building a reciprocal relationship, there's just this codependency that's so dangerous. And the practicality of also do you have a plan? And, and then calling it in, I think is so such a important simple step guys that I, I, I can already get a sense of some men listening, feeling resistance to that because that also the ball forward.

Karen McMahon: Yeah. And also she gets so angry. And she's gonna, yeah, she is. You're just calling her on her, she's getting angry totally.

Jason Lange: And, but that has to happen, right? Like that's actually, that is the path to, to growth and freedom and moving forward and not perpetuating these kind of really stuck, dysfunctional cycles that couples, you know, on both sides, whether it's the man or the women can often get stuck in. So that, that's an incredible, incredible tip. And you know, what's your experience or what advice might you have? Because the other thing that just terrifies so many guys I work with is custody is, is their children and this sense that she's going to get the kids. And despite a lot of the, you know, beliefs people have, most guys I know really want to be involved in their children's lives. Right. That, at least that end up working with me and are terrified of losing their kid.

Karen McMahon: So I, I, I've been doing this for 15 years. I coach people coast to coast and the English speaking world in today's day and age 50, 50 custody is the norm. When your wife tells you it's not and you're going to be treated like a pedophile and get to see your kid with supervised visitation three times a month, call BS on it. Don't listen to her. Listen to your family law attorney and don't hire a generalist and don't hire a guy who does real estate but occasionally does family law. You want to hire someone who knows the family law. Judges are, I will say, and this is the bad news, the family, the family law, the court system is broken eight ways from Sunday. They're emotionally unintelligent, they're lawyers being asked to make decisions about emotions and family and they suck at it. However, actually a high conflict person is more apt to get the 50% that maybe they shouldn't get. But if you're, if you're like just you want to be an engaged dad, then all you have to do, and this is not a minor thing, you have to be able to control and manage your emotions so that you don't show up looking like someone you're not. You want to be the emotionally intelligent, the calm, the level headed, the rational one. Don't be frothing at the mouth and don't believe her as long as you show up that way and you want 50, 50 custody. And if you're that high earning entrepreneur who's been working late hours and traveling the country and like really building a beautiful home for your children, the court is not going to diminish that. That has been your division of labor. Now if you want 50, 50, you're probably going to have to adjust that and give some of your work stuff up so that you're available 50% of the time. That's a really hard decision for high earning entrepreneurs to make. But I've worked with men who have. I had this one guy, he was a national salesman, he was like the best in the business and he had five kids and he's like, I'm looking for another job, I am going to be a 50, 50 parent. And he took a cut and pay. And he is beyond, he's over the moon, happy. And he was told he's a shitty parent because he hasn't done X, Y and Z. He learned that he was the safer, emotionally intelligent, present, calm parent who could give the children independence when they got to the age. Mom was the controlling one who was like, I do everything. So if any of this resonates with you, the main thing I have a program that's called reclaim your mind. Evict your spouse from your mental space between your ears if she is negotiating on both sides of the table because she's in your head. And evict that girl from your mental space and begin to stand firmly in your beliefs, your priorities, your values, your strategies and that will serve you tremendously.

Jason Lange: Oh, that just doesn't even my whole body just relaxed hearing you speak to that in such a straightforward way that yeah, there's, you know, sure the courts aren't set up particularly well, but if you have your act together, you can go in there and come out with, with, with custody. You're not going to lose your kids, right? And there's some work maybe for you to do as a man to learn how to do that. That's some of that internal work and some of that emotional work, but it's very doable. And then when you have the right allies in your, in your side, so to speak, this can happen. And can I share an example? Yeah, absolutely.

Karen McMahon: There's a fellow that I'm working with, has built an incredible business, has two beautiful teenage tween teens and he has been told what a crappy dad he is for the better part. And, and he has been told how, what a loser he is in how many different ways. And I'm coaching and getting to know this gorgeous human being, this successful, this heart centered, this dedicated dad and he's advocating her perspective out of his mouth and because of course at first he believed it and then it's that Cognitive dissonance. It's like, I've been told this for so long. And so I just want to say to you guys, it's really easy to get confused and lost when you have that kind of a personality that you've been in intimate relationship with. And this is the opportunity your divorce can be for you and for your children. If you're willing to look at, you know, your part, which is, did I. Did I lose myself? Am I codependent? And I have a colleague who says codependence is a poor label. It's actually get a load of this self love deficit disorder. So all of us who are codependent, men and women, we're trying to gain love while we're like, there's a Thanksgiving feast on the table and we're on the floor picking up crumbs because we believe that's all we deserve. Use the pain of this transition to fuel personal growth. Reconnecting with yourself, retrusting yourself, working with people like Jason, where you can really understand what's possible when you stand in the power and belief of who you are. Because every. Every struggle, every trigger, every trauma through divorce can actually be fuel for you. And it's hard, but, you know, it's a fire of refinement, and you will. I emerged on the other side. I have 40 episodes. I call them Voices of Celebrations, Men and women. At least a dozen of them are men, saying, I entered this heels dug in, scared to death, utterly resistant. And Karen, I cannot believe that I'm saying this is the best thing that ever happened to me. And I'm so excited about the next chapter of my life. I. And that's what I wish for each and every one of you.

Jason Lange: Oh, hear that, guys? Yeah. So. So key and something I've seen show up in a lot of the groups I lead of what happens when a man meets a man who's on the other side. Because there's this feeling of there's no way. There's no way I can navigate this and my life's going to get better. The courts, the. The. The anger of the act. And then you meet someone who is on the other side and it's like, oh, yeah, they're like, I'm so glad I did this. Right. Like, everything is better. All the metrics are better. And that in itself, I think, starts to kind of light the way for men. And. Well, yeah, what you named there also the. I kind of call this sometimes one of the challenges I see with people who are involved with narcissists. Or BPD is, you know, the. For it to survive, often they have to create a cult of two. And so it's like cutting you off from the rest of the world because the rest of the world can give you information that conflicts with their world view, right? So, oh, no, you shouldn't talk to your mom anymore. You shouldn't talk to that friend anymore. And it ends up creating this, like, really deep cult of two that takes a long time to unwind from. Like, like you said of suddenly I'm advocating for my partner's position. And then even once they're gone, sometimes it takes a while of what you said evict. Because in a lot of the more transformational shadow work I do, again, part of what I. Why I love groups is what we see is our self image is almost always the last thing to update. So, you know, I'm such a da da da. I'm bad dad, I'm da da da. And it'll just keep going. And then, you know, sometimes what it. I've literally seen it take eight hours. Other men surrounding that guy saying, no, actually, here's how I experience you. Here's how I know you. And that moment, that shift, I think of what I imagine some of your clients experience with you and what I've seen with men is, oh, wait a second here. Either this person is totally bullshitting and lying to me, and then, you know, you extend that as more people get to know you. Like, okay, these eight men in this group, are they all lying to me? Or maybe this belief I have inside isn't actually correct. And whoa, what does that mean? Right? And the transformation that can start to flow from that, I think is so, so potent. And something I've even caught myself doing, right, you know, defending. Defending my shame when other people were trying to relieve me from it. Like, no, no, you don't understand. Like, I'm such a da da da da. You just don't. And it's like, whoa, what is going on with that? So to hear that, you know, in the transformation and the other thing I really wanted to note that you said too, is aligns so much with work I do, is what I heard you really speaking towards is the willingness of someone to use the divorce experience to turn towards all the discomfort, the fear, the unhealed wounds, to use that as an opportunity. Or what's so key about that is that's exactly how you make sure you don't get into the same relationship again when you go through all that to get out, right? This is the Opportunity to look at, okay, you know, what part did I have to play? There's always some part. Even if it was, yeah, I just totally enabled my partner to steamroll me for two decades. And then how does that connect to my history? And then what do I want to do about it? Right. What kind of healing and community and support and training and coaching do I need to kind of shift my way of being? So when I get back out there, if I do decide to, I get to have a different experience?

Karen McMahon: Well, and it's, it's. What's fascinating to me, Jason, is it's, it goes beyond the intimate relationship in the family. I can't tell you how often my clients change the way they were in business or change jobs because it's like, oh, I'm actually working for the exact same personality that I'm married to or, oh my God, I'm the boss and I'm so co dependent. I'm doing work that all of my staff should be doing because I feel bad, like putting the pressure on them to do what I'm paying them to do. And so it's like, you know, we're not siloed in this behavior. Yes, intimate relationship does have different tendencies. So you can be a rock star out in the world, but you could be a rock star out in the world and still be codependent, people pleasing and conflict avoidant. And so imagine rockstar with those three sandbags. Cut those sandbags off and like the world is your oyster, you just go floating into whatever high level you can achieve. And so this work has so many beautiful ripples and to say, and let's just bring the children in again and the ripple to the human beings you've brought into the world and that the ones that they're gonna bring into the world. And so it's just, I like to say that divorce is the perfect opportunity to reinvent yourself and to experience basically everything you've been created to do. Once we can heal those wounds. And in our Journey Beyond Divorce podcast, it starts off saying, this is a place where you heal your heart and refine your character. This is the space to do this because you're slamming against the biggest brick wall. It is affecting your money, your family, your in laws, your social circle, your housing, perhaps your job, like so many things. So let's make the most out of this. If we're going to go through this hell, let's make it so worthwhile.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I love that. And it, you know, one thing that just brings to mind for me is what has been shocking to me as I've worked with hundreds of men over the years, is how quickly we can normalize like the, the frog in the boiling pot of just like really intense, unhealthy dysfunctional situations. But we just get used to it. And until we maybe start bringing, you know, a third perspective in, like I said, we kind of break the call to two and whoa, wait, you mean that's not normal? And that the, the heat of that can become so intense. And just what I've seen guys tolerate is quite profound. Right over time and the realization that, oh my God, it doesn't have to be this way. And the, this thing I've noticed in a lot of relationships, unfortunately of this kind is, you know, in the work I teach, ideally our intimate partnership, right, Our relationship, whether we're heterosexual, homosexual, whatever, it's a place to get resourced against the stresses of life. Life is going to bring us plenty of stress. Health, finances, career, family, environment, you name it. Like there's just, that's just the way the world works. And ideally we find this great partner that we can start to build a life with and learn to co regulate each other and actually become like the eye of the storm in a sense of okay, it's crazy out there, but here we can come back to each other, we can create that safety, we can downshift our nervous systems. And I think, you know what really shocked me as I've gotten to work with so many men is how many men's relationships themselves are the primary source of stress in their life. And it's essentially like they're in war. It's actually like being at war and they go home, their nervous system turns on and into fight or flight of I got to survive, I have to survive this. And so there's no break, there is no break in their life to recharge. And they wonder why they get sick or.

Karen McMahon: Yeah, you're on a. What is it? A cortisol overflow. Like 24.

Jason Lange: Totally.

Karen McMahon: It's just so bad for the body.

Jason Lange: And those types of volatile relationships in particular really do that. And then. Yeah, I love what you said because one of my main programs is working with guys around dating and relationships and masculine presence and stuff. But the thing we don't tell guys but tends to happen is as they start to shift that their work life changes, right? And there's this almost direct correlate between how we're showing up in our intimate relationship and often how we're showing up in our work. Sometimes it's not quite Obvious, but usually what's being called for, for us to step into the next version of ourselves, there's a direct correlate. So you start working one, and it often transforms the other one in such incredible ways that I'm always, like, secretly smiling when guys are like, oh, yeah, and I just got a raise at work and I did it. And it's like, yeah, because you're setting boundaries. You're in your presence more. You know how to speak clearly. You're more regulated because you left that war zone. That was a relationship. So you have some space in your nervous system. So I just love hearing you speak about that. And, you know, another question that comes to mind here, that I'd just be curious, is kind of more of a nitty, gritty, technical. But a lot of guys also come to me and they're. They wonder about mediation versus, like, lawyers. How have you seen that show up, particularly in these kind of volatile situations, but really at all? Like, is that a, you know, viable path for some couples to just go through a mediator, or does it often end up in the courts?

Karen McMahon: Anyway, okay, so I was hoping that we could talk a little bit logistics, because that's something I've done a lot of. So if you're entering divorce, there are a number of different avenues, but I'm going to talk about the three primary ones. There's mediation, there's collaboration, and there's litigation. So mediation is neutral. That person may or may not be an attorney. I highly recommend you get an attorney mediator, and they're neutral. So you could be making the worst decisions for yourself, and they can't say both. And she could be, you know, threatening, being belligerent, crying, breaking down, whatever the manipulation is so that you're doing that. And that mediator could see it all going on, and he or she can't say boo. So if you have a power imbalance, if you've never been able to sit with your spouse and reconcile and problem solve and have flexibility and compromise on both sides, stay clear of mediation. It will be the worst thing that you can do. Collaboration is the middle. Collaboration can deal with a lot of conflict, maybe not the highest conflict. Collaboration is big C collaboration. That means you hire a certified or a licensed collaborative attorney, and your spouse has to hire a collaborative attorney. And the way that works is the four of you have these ongoing four ways. So it's me and mine, you and yours, and then there are other neutrals. If there's a lot of complex money, you can have a financial neutral. If There are young children and disagreements around parenting. You can have a child specialist neutral. And you can also have what they call a divorce coach, which is not like me, it's actually a mental health expert. And I would say that divorce coach comes in when you need emotional mediation. Basically when one or the other, like you're giving up everything, she's exploding over everything. And this therapist, this mental health expert divorce coach is there to help keep everything somewhat calm and regulated. The agreement in collaboration is we're not going to go to court. And in fact, you can't go to court with the same team. So it's a very committed, we're going to do this. It's going to be less adversarial, even if there's a lot of conflict, because all the experts have a mindset of, I don't want to screw you, I don't want to take money, that I want this to end quickly and well. It's a really safe process. A lot of my clients go the litigation route and collaborative attorneys will send me clients who basically failed at collaboration. So this is really, they agree to nothing. Their heels are dug in, you suck, they get everything. You don't get the kids, you don't get the money, you don't get the house. And they're unable to be reasoned with or rationalize. And the court system, you may not go to trial. Most people never go to trial. Only the very, very wealthy go to trial. Like 10% maybe, but litigation. So if you're, if mom is keeping you from the kids, you can file an order to compel them to share the kids. If she's the primary earner and she's keeping you from the money, you can compel to receive some money. If she's just digging in her heels and not negotiating, the judge will slap her hand or her attorney's hand and really push it along. So litigation is good if you're super high conflict with, with complex finances. If you can, if you can collaborate, it's better mediation. If we're talking about volatile and high conflict. Be careful.

Jason Lange: Yeah, okay. Super clear. That's so, so great. So helpful guys re listen to that as many times as you need. Because I think that paints a great three part kind of trajectory there of where you might need to slot in and just the simplicity you described that I think I'm just imagining a number of guys I've worked with can immediately, okay, I can put mediation to the side. Most likely because the, that power differential or our ability to really communicate is that was never there. That's part of why it never worked to begin with. Right. And it's not ending in an amicable way.

Karen McMahon: And, and, and the high conflict personality will also often demand that you use a particular. And they love mediation. Why are you gonna get. Why are you gonna get attorneys involved now? All of our money's gonna go to the. You're just ruining it bad one more way. And it's like, don't defend yourself. I would say my one tip would be, if you have a spouse who's constantly attacking you, stop defending. See if you can stop defending yourself. And the way you stop defending yourself is simply by commenting on her behavior. And so she's going to tell you, and you don't want to be the bad guy. Right? You're the nice guy. And so she's going to tell you eight ways from Sunday how you're the bad guy. And the best thing is to say, I hear you, and walk away. And then go talk to Jason or whoever your therapist or what have you is like. But try not to defend because that's a strategy of theirs. They're going to deflect. They're never going to respond to what you want, and then they're going to put you on the defensive. But nobody can put you on the defensive unless you choose to be. And so keep that in mind. And yeah. And don't defend. And you're not trying to run up costs. And you need the support of an attorney. And this is what I wanted to add to this. If you're in the early stages.

Jason Lange: Go.

Karen McMahon: Meet with an attorney, any attorney, and find out your legal rights and responsibilities. She has most likely been telling you that you're not going to get the kids, that she gets the marital home that she gets. I had one client, he was like, she wants $40,000 a month. There are crazy things. Don't get scared. Go speak to an attorney. These are your responsibilities. These are your rights. And that's the ground that you stand on. You do not stand on the ground of what she's saying. She's coming from one of two things. Her own fear, which is very likely, and her own desire. And neither of those are fact based. You want to stand on legal facts. Legal facts, family law attorney. Find out your rights and responsibilities. It's one of the very first things you should do as soon as you decide or she tells you that she's decided.

Jason Lange: I think that's so key, and I think I just want to highlight something there that it's also not a provocation. Sometimes guys I know are afraid to go there because what if she finds out? And then, no, that's just you getting the information so you can make informed choices. And whether you do that or not, often a volatile partner is going to try to steamroll you. Right? So you just, you want to get equipped, want to get equipped with knowledge, equipped with the right people and kind of burst that bubble. Is just one theme I keep hearing you say is, you know, don't buy what you're hearing necessarily when it comes to a highly volatile partner and go out and get some sober assessments because if you can relax that part of you that's in fear, then you don't have to show up in the interactions with her in fear. And it's already going to start to deflate that whole thing. Because even what you said of don't defend, don't defend, right. It's another way to get the hooks in you and spin up the whole dynamic that keeps you to. In that battle. Right? And so what you're advocating for is really turning in a pretty different way of, hey, I'm just not going to play that game anymore because it doesn't serve either of us.

Karen McMahon: You know, one of the sayings that I've raised both my kids and my clients on is what she says and how she behaves is 1000% about her and not at all about you. How you speak and how you behave, that's all about you. And so keep your side of the street clean. Stay off of hers. Don't tell her what to do. Don't tell her how she's wrong. Let that go. That ship has sailed. You're not going there. No good is coming from there. And when she accuses or belittles or berates you, I want you to hear, wow, she's showing who she is. She's showing her judgment, she's showing her condemnation. She's showing her perspective of me. Good information. If you could begin to see her words and actions as good information, because whatever, if she keeps the kids away from you, you're probably going to need the court and some protection so that you can have your children. Good information. It sucks. Today I'm not seeing them, but it's good information. I just recently had a client and I said, you go over there Friday night and if she does not hand those kids over, you have your divorce decree in hand, you call the police, you show them the legal document and, and you let them be the bully. You don't have to be bullying.

Jason Lange: Oh, that's so great. Yeah, you Let them be the bully. And you have, again, that. That kind of. Those facts on your side, which is going to allow you to engage in a different way rather than the battle that oftentimes those partners want to keep drawing us into. Right. That is so destructive in the many ways we've talked about. Hawks. Yeah. Just amazing. I've just. So glad to know you're out there advocating in this way and creating a sober pathway for men who can really let go of a lot of the fear that keeps them stuck in these sometimes untenable situations and sometimes go the wrong direction, too. Right. I've known many guys who. Yeah. In retrospect, they. They did. They tried the mediation, and they wasted so much time for something that was never going to work from the beginning because there was no good faith from their partner. Right. It was just in a way, you know, like, I. It's really standing with me, that thing you said of, you know, there's often a lot of attention on the public Persona, and so. Oh, well, if it's just one person in a room, I can still kind of. But the second we start bringing in more and more people that can all see my behavior, if I'm the volatile one. Ooh, no, no, I want to avoid that. And I will try to route it.

Karen McMahon: As much as they want to avoid it. For me, I had therapists for the kids. I had an attorney for the children. I had a custody evaluate. I mean, I just had everything. I was so scared until every single professional reflected back to me what they were seeing. And I was like, oh, oh, you're seeing. So I wasn't seeing it anymore because I had normalized it, but they were like, there's a problem over there on his side. And so it actually. The thing you're most afraid of turns out to be the greatest blessing. I was just on the phone this morning with a client. He was afraid because mom wants a therapist. And I was like, oh, my God, that is so good for you. That's so good for you. Because mom is clearly, you know, the one who's the high conflict. And so it's good for your son, it's good for you. And. And so it's not scary. So if you're thinking that, like, I don't, you know, I don't want to get. And she doesn't want to get other people involved. Yeah, of course she doesn't. Other people involved could be the best thing for you. And those experts, they. They. They do this day in and day out.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Karen McMahon: And I've heard this 100 times with Karen. My wife is so charismatic. I mean she just, she's gorgeous, she's charismatic. She. No, no, you're drinking her Kool aid. The rest of the world is not drinking her.

Jason Lange: Like wow. Yeah. Feeling the potency of that. And again, how insidious that that kind of merging and codependent even just mindset becomes. And then to have that burst, you know, I also imagine it's quite humbling and vulnerable when we realize, oh wow, I have been acting as if, when this thing actually hasn't been the case, you know, who am I? What does that mean about me that I went along with it all these times? And I imagine that's where there's so much inner work and growth and self healing and self forgiving too. Of all the different things that, you know, lead partner, lead people into relationships that ultimately aren't healthy.

Karen McMahon: Yeah, Jason, I think that you just nailed it. I'm actually getting teary eyed as I'm about to say this. It is so vitally important that you go through this process with so much self compassion. So she's been condemning you, you've undoubtedly been condemning yourself. That brings our energy down into the dungeon. Self compassion is going to raise you up to a place where you can start feeling your heart, where you can be there for your children. So anytime you hear that in a critic, you're such an X, Y and Z, just stop. Just see a big stop sign in your head and be as compatible. And I'll say this because I don't know if you do inner child work, but Jason, speak to yourself the way you speak to your son or daughter. Reparent yourself during this process by bringing compassion. The same compassion you would bring to your children. Bring to yourself because your inner child is freaking the hell out and that's we don't want him driving the bus. And the more self compassionate you are and the more you do this work, the better you're going to be for yourself and your kids.

Jason Lange: So great. So great. Yeah. I just love how you painted the picture of that. And it's, it's so true. And again, I think it's also one of the lifelines coach and professional like you or men can give is when we can't quite see yet someone else can see. No, you're actually, you're doing a great job. Yeah. You don't have to be perfect. You're showing up. It's going to be okay. And that can sometimes penetrate and help us start to generate that self love and compassion. Like we were talking about, of. Okay, yeah, I trust her. And so when she says that it's okay for me to start to let that in and recalibrate my inner belief system away from some of what was keeping me trapped before, around my. My shame or my worthiness. And my partner's story about all of that, that then I internalize and almost inevitably dovetails right into some kind of wounding, even be beyond older than that partner. Right. That they just found a way to kind of slot right into.

Karen McMahon: Yeah. Into that wound.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Well, anything else you'd like to speak to or share to any men potentially on this journey?

Karen McMahon: I do. I have something I was thinking. I don't know why, but it came into my mind until I meant to share it. So a lot of times men come to me and they're in the should I stay or should I go? Right. And there's a lot of fear and. And so there's actually typically not a lot of confusion. Like they come saying, I'm so confused. I don't know what to do. I'm really indecisive. When in fact, they're just scared shit. And so the question that I ask. And so if that's you, if you're tuning in and that is you, I want you to think about, especially, right. We're talking about this codependence. So what else can I do to make her love me? Right. Like, that's codependent. How have you felt deeply loved by your partner? And not 20 years ago, over the last three years, over the last five years, how have you been felt deeply loved by your partner? And if I tell you, I get really quiet after asking that question, and the list is so sad. Well, you know, she. She keeps the house and she cooks for the kids, and. And I just stay really quiet. And there's usually two or three things on the list, and they've got nothing to do with her loving her husband or him loving his husband, whatever the case may be. And so write that question down. How have you felt deeply loved by your spouse? Because if you're on the ground, as I was accepting crumbs, when you deserve a Thanksgiving feast of love, it's time to wake up and consider what you want your future to be.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Such a great prompt, guys, in terms of, again, truth and sobriety, sometimes we don't really want to look at it because once we look at it and see it, it's hard to stay kind of head buried in the ground even with such a simple prompt. Right. Because again, that Relationship might be a lot of things, but it's not a loving partnership, Right. There's not reciprocity there. And that's going to come with some decisions, right, as to, you know, do, do you want to transform that in, you know, a lot of guys, again, we'll just anchor it here. If they've never had a model, they don't even know something else is possible which is, oh, a reciprocal relationship. I put energy in to my partner and I receive energy back. It's not just a one street thing. Sometimes there's a season where maybe I'm putting in a little more. Sometimes there's a season where my partner's putting in a little more. But there's always an exchange. And that is such a telltale sign, I think, of how viable a relationship can be moving forward. And then, you know, you start to bring on the inner work and you can just take it to the next level, which is, oh, and something magic happens. If I take responsibility as much as I can for being able to show up with the well regulated, full energized nervous system and my partner's doing the same, whoa. Then it's not just reciprocal, it's. It's like a nuclear reactor of generative energy where it's like, well, I'm giving abundantly not because I need anything back, but because I just devoted and I love my partner and I have energy and then they're doing the same. And it's incredible, right, what that can bring then to life in terms of a relationship. So guys out there, you know, who feels stuck or unsure, you know, do that, sit down, don't, don't hide from it, right, and share it, share it with someone that is meaningful in your life. Because there's also something that I imagine is happening there where they're being witnessed in that by you. And that's like another layer of, oh, I can't really hide from this now because someone, not only do I see it, but, oh, now Karen sees it. And I can't just run away from this. Like, so what an amazing, amazing prompt. Definitely.

Karen McMahon: So many of us are just trying. Like, people come to me and go, I put in 200%. What do you get back? 25%. Why are you putting in 200%? Never even looked at that. Never even looked at, oh, well, maybe I should go to 250 because going to 200 did you so much good. Go to 600. Like, how much are you going to go to? Are you going to give your life? And I think you alluded to it before. If my family of origin, if I was always caretaking my parents, then maybe, maybe I actually have no experience of that reciprocal love. And if that's you, then start today and trust that. In fact, what I find with most of my clients is when they've had no experience of recovery, reciprocal love, but now they're giving it to their children and their children are giving it back to them. That's your experience. So then let your children lead you. Like, if you have kids, chances are you do have at least that reciprocal, and so you can use it. But we, we, we do. We just give more and more and more, and that's not the solution.

Jason Lange: I see that in men's groups too, where sometimes the experience of, oh, wait, you're a man giving me loving presence and attention, and you don't need anything back from me. Like, I've literally never received that before. But the beauty of it, even if it's from, you know, a peer in a group, is it starts to open that channel and create the musculature to receive, which then makes it easier to go out into an intimate relationship or next partnership and do it. Kids, I think, are such a great example of that as well, that, you know, I think a lot of fathers, as they open to that, it's like, oh, wow, there's actually way more love available in my life than I realized. I just didn't know how to let it in, in that, you know, the last thing I'll share too, is that 50, 50, kind of 250 thing too, is going right back to that kind of hero, nice guy thing. If you're giving 100, your partner has no chance. There's zero space, right? And so one of those developmental phases of, okay, what's really going on in this relationship is, what if I do just only bring 50? Occasionally a partner can actually rise to that. And suddenly there's space for the partner to give 50. Or again, for nice guys I've seen too, is my partner's so angry, so angry, so angry. But they're actually holding 0% of the anger in the relationship. So that energy is neither created nor destroyed. So the partner is holding her anger and his anger, but as he starts to just, hey, you know what? It really annoyed me when you did X, which, like, for a nice guy is like, oh, my God, am I being a total dickhead? But no, then their partner's like, oh, my God, that actually feels so good. And they get less angry because he's actually taking, you know, taking his side of Things and it balances things out. Now, it's not always going to end up that way, but what I heard you speaking to is start now, best case scenario, hey, maybe things totally turn around. If they don't, you've already started your work, so it's a good investment of time anyway. Why wait? Because that same skill and capacity you're going to need moving forward in your life even after that relationship.

Karen McMahon: Absolutely. And I would just that we keep going on here, but I have found that those who are givers, the co dependents actually if we considered giving and receiving biceps, they have a really, really strong giving bicep and they got nothing when it comes to receiving. So if you want financial abundance, if you want intimacy abundance, if you want any kind of abundance, you have to learn how to receive. And if you're a good guy, receiving feels wrong. It feels like I should just be giving, you know, Divorce rates go from around 50. Second marriages is 67, third marriages is 73. Everyone out there thinks they're divorcing. The problem. You want to be the one, right? So you want to learn how to, how to receive as well as give so that if you go through divorce and if you choose to have an intimate relationship going forward, that you're bringing that balance and so you'll attract that balance.

Jason Lange: And to tie it all together here, something you said too is fathers, if you're buying into the I have to give 100%, guess what, you're modeling and teaching to your kids that that's what a relationship is. So if you want to give them another way, the best way is to start living it of oh, I'm going to actually learn how to receive, which is going to show my kids that receiving is an important thing. And I tell this to a lot of those guys who are like, I don't know if I should stay or should I go. You know, I feel like it's going to be harmful to the kids if we split up. Most men I know and human beings, one of the greatest gifts you can give your kids as a father, as I'll speak to in this sense, is for them to see you happy and thriving. My dad's happy. Like that's awesome, right? And that is a gift because that transmits something about what life can be. If you're suffering, overworking, not setting boundaries in a war like relationship, that's exactly what you're teaching your kids. Life should be right because like you said, they're going to feel that is home. Oh, that's what dad did. That's what I did. Right. I have many guys say that. Just, that's what my dad did. He just gave everything all the time, and then he ended up, you know, dying of a heart attack at like, 55 years old. Well, let's do a different way. What would it mean for you to receive the help of a, you know, a guide and facilitator and healer like you other men? So. So thank you so much for bringing your wisdom here. I think it's really going to land for so many guys I work with and tell the guys a little bit explicitly about how they can keep up with you, how they can get in touch with you if. If they need this kind of help on their journey.

Karen McMahon: Great. Thank you so much. So Journey Beyond Divorce is my podcast. JBD divorcesupport.com is our website. On the homepage we have where are you in the process? We have gifts if you are on the mend and fence if you're just getting started, if you're in the messy middle of negotiations, if you're heading toward post divorce, go and grab a free gift. But most importantly, if this has really touched something in you and you would like to meet with me and see about coaching together. RapidReliefCall.com we'll spend an hour together. You will walk away with new awarenesses, an action plan, and a really good sense of how this process can be for you. And the last thing I will say is my favorite saying, every upset is a setup. So each time you're triggered, stop and think, what is this inviting me into in terms of healing and growth? And that will serve you so well.

Jason Lange: Love that. Every upset is a setup. What a beautiful transmission. Well, thank you so much, Karen. Such a joy to be here with you and receive your wisdom and thank you for all the work you do for men and women trying to ease this transition of a really painful time in life, but actually make it something that can be productive and healing and transformational. And guys, you know, I don't have a ton of guests on my podcast, really, only people I've met and trust and really, you know, double click of like, this is someone you should work with. So, you know, work with me on the inner masculine stuff and you need help in that journey. Please, please follow up with Karen. And it's going to be a service to you, your families, your kids, your community, et cetera. We need more healthy relationships in the world right now. And sometimes before we can create that one, we have to close out the old one. And there's no shame in that. Once again, thank you so much, Karen. And until next time, if you're interested in working with me around dating relationships or your masculine presence in the world, just go to Evolutionary Men Apply.