Why Every Man Needs a Men’s Group | Jason Lange | The Shaman Stories Podcast

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Welcome to the Shaman Stories podcast. Today's guest is Jason Lange. He's a men embodiment coach, group facilitator, an evolutionary guide. He helps men drop in and wake up to deeper clarity in their life's purpose and relationships. He believes every man should be in a men's group for growth and support and opportunities that they provide. Thanks for being here, man. I appreciate it.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Excited to be here.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): And it's interesting, too. Just from my perspective, it's interesting timing because I was just invited into a men's group with some friends of mine that are like, we need to do something together as men and just get more connected and do stuff. And I was like, all right, let's see what. See how it goes. So, yeah, I'll be starting my men's group on Sunday.

Jason Lange: Awesome.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): That's.

Jason Lange: That's beautiful. Love it.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): So I guess before we dive into all that good stuff, is there anything else you want people to know about you? And then we'll just kind of get into your story as to why you're doing what you do today?

Jason Lange: I just think, you know, men's groups in male community and the type of work we'll probably talk about here today are one of the single biggest leverage points we have on our culture right now in terms of moving the needle forward for everyone. And when men don't have a place to put or deal with their pain, the whole world suffers. And so this is what we're going to talk about, is one place where we can start dealing with that.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Nice. And so let's dive into what made you go this route. I mean, this podcast. Normally we're talking about the journey into spirit, different modalities. But what stood out to me is I believe we need these things. You know, as men were, my personal feeling is we're just kind of getting pushed to the side everyone's talking about the divine feminine, the divine masculine became toxic. We're not working on healing it. And to me, that's. That's an issue. Right. We need to address both. We need to bring out the divine masculine, the correct one. We need to work our with ourselves as men, because we are men, just like women have skills and traits that they're good at. We have our skills and traits, and yes, there are overlapping. Everybody's different, but we need to have a balance between the divine feminine and the masculine. And if we're just ignoring the masculine, then we're doing a disservice for everyone.

Jason Lange: Yeah, well, you know, my story weaves into probably part of the cultural story here in that. So I'm a white guy. I was raised in lower middle class of the Midwest of the US and, you know, had all my basic security needs met, food, shelter, relative amount of stability. What I discovered in my journey as I became kind of a teenager and kind of got into that adolescent teen phase and started leaving the house, leaving the family unit, so to speak. And in my case, I'm heterosexual, so I started to become attracted to women. I found my whole body would get very uncomfortable. I would get anxious, nervous, sweaty. I wouldn't know how to talk. And I was pretty locked up in myself and had no idea how to connect, particularly with the feminine. And then even as I started building my first male relationships, I noticed, wow, they relate to each other very differently than me. They touch each other, they horseplay, they wrestle. They're kind of there in each other's space, and I didn't have any wiring for that. And long and short of it, what it kicked off was my first journey to introspection and towards spirit, in that I was suffering every day, was alone in my body, I was around people I didn't feel understood. I had no idea how to interact with women at all. And the older I got, the more anxiety it produced in me because we live in a culture where, you know, if you haven't lost your virginity as a man, something's wrong with you, you're broken, you're defective, et cetera. So my shame continued to grow and realizing as I started to put the pieces together, that despite my needs being met at a physical level in my family, I was completely neglected. There was no physical touch or emotional connection in my household growing up. And so all of this stuff that was happening inside of me, my pain, my anxiety, my fear, my shame, I didn't know what it was, I didn't know how to talk about it, I certainly didn't know how to get help around it. And so for me, my primary medication through my 20s and even into my 30s was porn, masturbation and food. I would just numb out my pain because I didn't know what else to do. And I think that is a story a lot of men are dealing with in their lives. Their thing could be alcohol more and more, it could be weed, it could be overworking, it can be video games. There's so many vices, in a sense, we have out there that we like to kind of label in a negative way. But for so many men, they're the only medication we have available to us because from a Young age, nobody teaches particularly young boys becoming men. What is going on inside their bodies. From a very young age, we are taught and often rewarded as boys and men for not being in our bodies. Right. So plenty of research that shows often little boys and little girls are parented very differently. Right. Girl falls down, oh my God, are you okay? Come in for connection attunement. Little boy falls down, you're fine, get back up, you're tough, you can do it, right? Which obviously there's some positives to that. But the message already starting to be sent at that age is, hey, what's happening inside your body? Doesn't matter, override it with your head. And then we get into the school system where, you know, I'm obviously pro education, but the system is set up essentially so sit still and pay attention for eight hours. And turns out little, little boy bodies, little male bodies, they need to move. They're very kinesthetic, they have a lot of energy. And part of how they learn is by literally moving their bodies and breaking things. It's a big part of, you know, being a boy. But the school system isn't set up for that. So what do boys often start to hear from a young age? Wow, you can't sit still in class, you're a troubled boy, you have problems, you have adhd, we need to put you on some kind of medication. And then we get into adolescence, which the shift becomes our peers. Our bodies are developing at different ages. There's in group out, group culture, bullying. You know, it's changing certainly since I was a kid, but it's still a thing. And what we quickly learn is play it cool. Don't share any weakness, don't share anything that could be used as ammo against you in the locker room. So armor up whatever's going on side on inside, just play it cool. And then we get out into the world and we live in a pretty work oriented culture. And what are men celebrated for? Oh, he works 80 hours a week. He's such a tough worker. He sleeps under his desk. The only way to do that, you ignore your body, you ignore your heart. And so all of that cultural pressure for me swirled together with my family pressure and, and I just didn't know how to be in the world. And that kicked off an actual spiritual journey for me of, oh my God, there has to be a better way to be. Because every day I'm falling asleep suffering in my body. And that for me initially kind of took me into the world of philosophy and studying and became obsessed with this guy, Ken Wilber, who I ended up working with and moved out to college, Colorado and got immersed in my first like transformational space. And it was in there I started therapy for the first time. I got into men's groups, I started somatic work, eventually started doing plant medicine, all of the things. And it was men's group though, and somatic work in particular, that moved the needle the most for me. Because what I started to see, and you know, I was working for an organization that created transformational experiences, is it's really easy to go to a weekend to do some plant medicine, to sit on the cushion and have this profound awakening or state shift. And then a month later you're at home and it's Tuesday and you're right back where you started and you're like, what is going on? I thought I was happy, fixed, etc and so why I've become particularly passionate about men's group is that's the place for integration. Where do we keep coming back to to help take these temporary, powerful spiritual states and convert them into permanent traits that we have access to, Right? Oh, I know how to do that now. I can be do that regularly when my partner talks to me. I don't just shut down or leave the room or explode in anger. And a men's group is a place where we get to track that over time. And then that community itself, being in that group of men, so to speak, is where we get to learn how to do all the things no one taught us. How to do what we're feeling in our body, how to share it and express it, how to get feedback around it and suddenly what it means to be connected. The things so many of us are longing for. But our culture tells us as men, no, no, no, no, no. To be a man means to be the, the Western Marboro man, right? The cowboy out on the plains, totally alone, completely self sufficient, tough as nails, doesn't need anyone. But the reality under that, you know, romantic notion is those guys drink themselves to death, they die of heart disease. The evidence is just building. More and more men are three and a half to four times more likely to commit suicide, right? In 19, I think it was 1990, they polled men under 3% reported not having any close friends. By 2021, that was over 15%. I'm guessing by now it's even higher the way culture and social media and technology has gone. So men are feeling more isolated than ever. We're not trained with the tools we actually need to be present in the world and deal with the challenges of life. And most of us have just never had a model for what this kind of healthy masculinity you were talking about looks like. So we've just been immersed in a culture that instead says, well, don't be that. Right, right. We just, you know, it's been 10. You know, not quite 10 years, but approaching nine or 10 years now since me too broke. We just had the rape academy a couple months ago. Like, there's a consistent steady stream of what pathological masculine can do, but there's very little modeling in our culture for the healthy parts. And I think that's what men's work and men's groups in the type of stuff I'm really passionate about, starts to provide for men is a roadmap for a healthier way to be nice.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Yeah, I like that. It's because that. That is true. It's. We. We see all the negative things that men are doing, but very few positive. And then some of the few positive role models that people thought we had are now in the Epstein files. And we're like, what the hell just happened? Deepak Chopra, like, all of a sudden, his name's in there a whole bunch of times, and it's like, what's going on here? And it's just. It gets confusing. I'm like, well, who should I be listening to? Who should I be working with? And, you know, there's that meme, too, online, where it's like, oh, they're talking to a woman. You know, who do you talk to when you have a bad day? Oh, my friend, my sister, my mother, this, this, this. And then they ask the guy, and he's like, nobody, because nobody gives a shit. And that's how a lot of us feel, is like, I can't tell you my problems, because then I look weak. I don't look like I'm in charge. I don't look like I have it all together, even if I am just sitting here making this all up as I go, trying to figure out my own path, my own way. We don't talk about that. It's just not something we want to admit, because that makes us weak. Quote, unquote, weakness.

Jason Lange: Exactly. And, you know, this all starts to tie into the complete falling apart of rites of passage work for men, which is particularly important for us. So you look through most historical cultures, indigenous cultures, there's some kind of process that boys go through to transition into manhood, and that's been prepared, pretty much eradicated from the west in some pretty significant ways. And it Ties into part, part of the challenges we're talking about here. Right there. There's some great work from this organization of call to Men and Tony Porter that kind of popularized the. The label the man box, right? This idea that masculinity in our culture is a very narrowly defined box. And inside it are a couple check boxes. And as long as you check, check those boxes, you're a man. If you don't, you're considered something else. And the most popular one, right, kind of is don't be weak, don't be vulnerable, don't need other people, and all many, many other ones you can think about that start to stack up there. And what's really interesting about that is I don't remember the name of it at the moment, but I found this research study from a couple years ago that was like, wow, okay, that's eye opening. Where they. This is what's interesting. They polled both men and women. So both men and women responded to this. And I'm not saying, you know, this is correct, but this is where the default culture is. And the question they asked is, what marks the transition from a girl to a woman? And what marks the transition from a boy to a girl to a man? Both men and women, when it came to girls to women, basically just listed physiology. Her body, her breasts have developed, she has her monthly cycle, she can have children. She's a woman now. When it came to boys turning into men, it was not based on physiology, it was based on behavior. How are they showing up in their community? So you could have a quote, unquote, fully grown man who's still a child, who's still a boy in the way he's dealing with himself, his responsibility, his commitments, etc. And so what it points to is this behavior thing is particularly important in our cultures for boys to men. And we have no pathway to what does that mean anymore. We're just launched. So many, you know, my generation for sure, even more younger generations just launched into the world now with a smartphone, access to porn from like 8 years old, and hey, good luck, buddy. And that's it. And then we wonder why these young boys are so lost and in so much pain. In one of the things that is so great about men's work. In men's community, as in its own way, a spiritual path for men is the rites of passage is what happens when I get exposed to sometimes older, but sometimes just wiser men in my life who acknowledge and honor and see my pain and point me in a direction with their support as to how I can walk past it. And without that, so many boys, so many men feel so, so lost in the world. And I got really lucky because when I got into this work in my 20s, in the mid-2000s, if you said men's group back then, most people would associate it with a church study group or an AA recovery group, and those both have a lot of benefit for some people, but they don't cover the whole population for sure. Now, 20 years later, there's like an actual tidal wave of men's work and men's groups forming to plug some of these gaps we're talking about in our culture. And I got lucky because I got out of one of the first swells back in the day and it completely changed my trajectory as a man.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Yeah, definitely can see, especially because I have two boys, one's 15, one's 11, and it's like the 15 year old's already getting inundated of, you know, how bad men are and this and that. And he's like, he's like, I'm never going to get a wife. No one's ever. Women don't want men anymore. More this and that. And I'm like, no, no, no, you got to get off the social media, man. Like, it's not real. Like, it's not real. And we kept them off for many, many years and now we're like slowly letting the, the feed come in and it's just like, all right, all these people on here, 90 of them, are either faking, acting or just trying to get enough clicks with the rage bait because they just want the money that they're getting from the views. I was like, this is not society. Like, these are not the people you need to be concerned about. Like, and then the same thing with porn. We haven't had that issue yet because I got everything blocked on the firewall. But it's like, you know, we talked about it. I'm like, the way this isn't real either. Like, the expectations I think a lot of men get now from porn and watching those videos, it's just not true. You know, a girl's not just going to instantly drop to her knees and do things for you. She's not going to let you do all these other things that are being done. You have to have respect and love and understanding of each other. And you see these videos and it's just like, oh, they'll just do whatever I want, when I want. So that's just how it's supposed to work, right? And I think young girls are also getting inundated with that. And they don't realize that they also have the ability to say, no, that's not what I'm doing. I'm not comfortable with that. So, you know, I know we're just talking about men, but in the context of porn, I think that impacts both sides so much. Oh yeah, it's important that we actually at least say that as well. So it's not just a one sided thing, but it's. Yeah, it's. All these influences are out. I mean, like Andrew Tate just got arrested recently, you know, and he was that big thing of all, women need to know their place and this and that and setting up all these unrealistic expectations for relationships. And, you know, now he's arrested again. I had to research it because I was like, I thought he already was arrested, but he got arrested in Romania like a couple years ago and now he gets arrested again in Miami. That's a whole nother conversation. But, you know, I'm, I'm glad to see at least some of those, you know, quote unquote, men representatives are getting shown for who they truly are. So that we can see, no, that isn't the correct way. And the younger generation can see that as well. And with that whole generation piece, you know, what was it like for your, your connection with your father after you started doing the men's group and do you have any kids and how is that affecting, like the generational lines?

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Nice. Yeah, I Think that's important because we always hear about girls night out. They go out, they talk. And it's a different dynamic, too. And you kind of touched on this before because it's like my wife would be like, oh, did you talk to so and so. I'm like, yeah, we talked. Well, what'd you talk about? Basic stuff. Like, you know, like, I was introduced to one of her friends, husbands the other day. We had a little barbecue and all the kids are playing and stuff, but we were both busy making sure the little ones weren't drowning in the pool and other stuff like that, and totally over there chatting away. And it's like, what you guys talk about? Well, not much because we're watching the kids and trying to make sure everybody gets what they need because there was like eight kids of all different ages, you know, and there's like two little ones that we don't want to drown in the pool, you know, but they can sit there and talk about everything and versus us guys. It's kind of like, hey, what you do for work? What do you do for this? How do you work on that? Oh, I see. You built this over here. Or, you know, it's real basic, you know, there's no, deep down conversation with most of us.

Jason Lange: Absolutely. It's one of the ways we're failed in our culture as men, because we're not taught, like I said, how to connect at a deeper level. And in fact, we're. We're taught that if you do, there's something wrong with you, you're going to be attacked for it, you're vulnerable. And this is the default mode most men relate in. I call it triangulation. Right. Me and you have our attention on some third thing, and our connection comes from that. From, yeah, watching our kids at the pool together, golfing together, fixing something, watching a sports game. And rarely is our attention fully on each other and what's actually going on inside. And that is one of the things we get to do in a men's circle, in a men's community. And the benefit to it is it's often the antidote to the loneliness we feel. So one of the things that's radically changed in the work I've done in the last five or six years was even my stereotypical notion of what a lonely man looks like, turns out was totally wrong. It's not just a guy who's stuck in his room online all the time and has no friends. Right. The kind of culture tells us all the millennials, all that kind of stuff. One of my clients, he just had this experience three months ago. Great example of what it. What I mean by this. Every year he goes on a weekend ski trip with his best buddies that he's known since he was a child. Guys he's grown up with. One of the reasons he's working with me, he's in the midst of a very painful ending of his marriage that's disrupting his family considerably. He went on this weekend with the guys, only one of them asked him about it. And so he came back from three days with the men he considers closest to him, and none of them knew what was going on in him because they just don't talk about those kind of things. So he came home feeling more lonely than when he left because, wow. Even the people closest to me, I can't talk about what's going on inside me because they either don't care or I'm afraid of, you know, their judgment or whatever it might be. And that's very common, I think, for us guys where we do. We like to talk about things. We like to talk about the surface level. We like to talk about objects. But what that misses is what's happening inside of us. And that is one of the great gifts a men's group can do for us men is provide us a space where our attention gets turned towards each other and where we get to slow down, go under the surface, and help each other connect to our direct felt body, experience what we're actually feeling in our lives. And it sounds so simple, but it is so radical for so many men when they realize they can start to do this and experience what happens in their bodies and nervous systems when they can. So much of that burden, so many of us guys carrying the weight of the world, I'm holding together my family, my job, my parents, my health.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Ah.

Jason Lange: And there's nowhere for me, right? This is the place where we get to bring ourselves forward and get to be both held in support when we need it, when we've been knocked off center by life. And the other thing, most men often don't even realize they crave till they experience it. But I think it's particularly true for men is it's where we get to be held accountable or we get to share what our vision is for our life and who we want to be. And other men can lovingly reflect to us when we're off course. Call it the spinach in the teeth moment, right? I'm walking through my day talking and seeing all these people. Finally, I sit down with you Jeremy. And you're like, yo, Jay's a dude. You got a big old piece of spinach in your teeth, man. You look like an idiot. I'm like, oh, I feel so embarrassed. I think back through my day, I've had it. Maybe I feel a little shame at first, clean it out. And then I look at you, though, and I'm like, well, dude, thanks for telling me because I've been walking around all day and no one else did and I've looked like a total idiot. Now I trust you because you'll tell me the feedback I need to hear so I can live the way I want to live. And that loving reflection, feedback calling forth so many men are missing until they feel it. Wow, this person gives so much of a about me. They're not going to let me get away with my right. They actually love me enough to call me forward when I'm not being the man I have professed I want to be. And when that starts to happen in a collective of men and it is like rocket fuel for our lives.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): And I guess with that, because you're kind of touching on it a little bit. But if somebody wants to start a men's group, like I mentioned, I'm starting my first one on Sunday. You know what's a good structure, Rules, guidelines, you know, whichever way you want to frame it that everyone should try to live by or uphold when starting something like this.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's a great one. And more and more I'm starting to train men on this of like, how do you create a group? How do you keep it deep? How do you make it last? And you know, there's the interesting about thing about men's group is it's kind of like meditation in that it's one word, but there's actually lots of ways to do it. When you're like, well, how do you meditate? Exactly. Some men's groups can be more about accountability. Some can be about peer support, some can be about practice and embodiment. I like groups that are kind of a mixture of all of the above. But the main things I find create a powerful group are one, you have to have very clearly defined agreements. Agreements. What are our road rules for how we're going to relate in this space with each other, of which, you know, I. I have many. I teach men. But. But the one I'll name here that is often quite powerful for men and very needed is confidentiality. Whatever I bring forward here isn't going to leak back out into the world. So I can feel Safe to be vulnerable without knowing this isn't going to be weaponized or shared through a gossip chain. And then suddenly someone's going to be telling me something, Tell the wives, who

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): then talk to each other.

Jason Lange: Exactly. So that creates a lot of safety for us men. That's one example of an agreement that changes how we relate. And then we need an actual structure in the group and somewhat of a shared vision for why are we here and what do we want to get out of this. Right, because everyone's going to have slightly different things and you kind of as a group need to settle on what's the purpose of this. Is it just community, fraternity? Is it to deepen ourselves as men? Is it to move our lives forward, better our relationships? You know, might be all of those things. But you want to get clear at that. So you have a shared vision. And then the. One of the biggest things I've seen is you want to get really airtight on when do we meet, how long do we meet and what's the expectation for attendance. Because if it's a leaky container where guys just come when they feel like it, it's not going to last more than three to six months. And what I have found is the tighter that container becomes, the more the wrong men drop away. They're not ready for that level of commitment. And it's much better to have a group of two to five guys who are all in with consistency with taking it serious than it has than it Is to have 12 to 15 that are going to be flaky and not really show up and aren't really committed. Because when that commitment is there, when I feel that your life, Jeremy, is busy as shit, you got kids, your managed a job, you got a wife, but you are prioritizing being here. That means something to me and it means I want to prioritize being there with you. And it starts to deepen the group when there's that feeling of, well, you know, I didn't feel like coming in like last week. I was a little tired. Maybe I'll come in three weeks. Nobody wants to be there because it's like you guys aren't committed. Why the would I commit? Right? So having that kind of buy in is really important. And then it's just usually a mixture I lead of doing something to get us into our bodies. An actual embodiment practice to transition into being more present here. And then we often do some kind of check inside what's going on in my body right now in my life, what am I Here for. What am I looking for tonight? Then often we'll do some deep work with a couple of guys to really help them work some issue or challenge in their life. And the last ingredient, I would just kind of. Kind of throw in a bunch of spaghetti against the wall here, but is the more somatic you can make it, the better. So actually teaching men to be in their bodies in the moment, our. Our tendency as guys is going to want to be, to pop up, talk about concepts, philosophies, things, culture. Right. Or talk. Let's talk about men's issues. It's great. It's a great conversation to have. Is it the conversation you actually need to have in that precious two hours where you have eight of you together in the room? Probably not. There's probably something far more alive for a man about how he's living right now and what he's feeling in his body. So bringing in the body is really key and learning to share. Hey, when you said that, my. My gut tightened up and I felt sick. I felt really protective of you when I heard how da da da was treating you. And that starts to change a group really, really fast and orient it towards depth.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Yeah. Because it's scheduling, I think, will always be the biggest hurdle. So that was part of my question too, was what you answered was, you know, how big should this thing be? Because it's, you know, I play D and D with some friends once a month, and just scheduling with six people on that can be a challenge. Right. It's like, especially with kids and everything going on. And some of the people I play with are also actors, so they're also in shows and, you know, busy lives. Right. Everybody has it. And so it's committing to whether it's like the third Sunday of every month or, you know, you just set it in stone and do your best to meet those obligations as much as possible. And then how would you handle it if maybe one person in the group doesn't seem to be coming along for the journey like everybody else is? I mean, do you just kind of give them more time and then make a decision as a group? You know, because I'm assuming at some point, sure, you might just need to kick them out and be like, look, you're just not meeting the.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): You don't seem to be engaged.

Jason Lange: Yeah. This is where the group has to come. Come to some alignment with their shared vision and expectations. When I have started groups in the past, and often what I counsel men on is usually when you start, it's an open Group meaning, okay, for the next three months, we're going to be meeting at this time, and anyone can come. You're not committed to have to come each time you can invite different people, and we're going to see who actually shows up, right? Who's showing up consistently and in. And then usually three to four months in you, it's pretty clear, like, who's actually up for this and who just likes the idea of it, right? Who's going to prioritize this in their lives? That's actually what it takes. It's saying, this time with you men is as much a priority to me as all the other things I say. That's what makes it valuable. And that's frankly what makes it really hard for a lot of guys who are used to putting everyone else first. The kids first, the wife first, the co workers first, the family first. That's why it's such an edge to say, you know what? No, this is for me. And it's just as important because without this, I'm not able to show up in the ways I want for all of you. And once things close down, right, then it becomes a closed container. There's expectations around attendance, making it how you show up, all those kinds of things you want to kind of create with each other. And then from that point on, if new people desire to meet, usually it's frankly, it's like an audition. They come in, they sit for a meeting or two, they get to feel them, the group gets to feel them, that man gets to feel the group. And then, you know, probably the next session you have a discussion, does it feel like this man would deepen and be in alignment with what we're doing? And then he also has that choice, right? So you might invite him in and he might be like, no, actually, I'm not ready for that level of commitment or whatever that might be. But over time, what you find is the men who are really there for each other. And if there's a man who, you know, starts committed and then he's not showing up, it is absolutely fair to say, hey, that's not the container we're longing for here. And I love you, I care about you, I want you to be in my life. And we want men in this group who are ready to prioritize this group. And it just seems like that's not what's true for your life right now. And then you cut them loose, frankly. And like I said, it's better to have a tight, small group than a big, leaky group, because It'll last much longer.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): No, yeah, I can definitely see the point of that. I just always curious because I noticed like on your website you have like training forward and it said like the containers were only like six people. I want to say like.

Jason Lange: Oh yeah, yeah, six people for that particular thing. Yes. Just because it's an online format and it works a little better than what I generally suggest for in person groups is. Yes, six to 12 men, usually bigger than. It partly depends on how often you're meeting. But bigger than 12. If you're only meeting, let's say twice a month, that's four hours a month. You have 12 men. Not every man gets very much time each session. It's just, it's too much to try to get through. Frankly, it's doable with 12, but that's the upper limit of what I'd say. And then anything smaller than six, you know, if they're die hard, that's great. But the trouble with smaller than six is there are inevitably, inevitably going to be life things that come up. A kid's birthday party, a holiday, an emergency work trip. And so suddenly if two guys can't go and it's a four person group, you're down to two and it feels very different. So there's a certain amount, you want a certain amount of bodies in the room, but not too many bodies in the room. So I have tended to find the 6 to 12 range is the sweet spot. Like my group I'm in right now is nine men and it's a very full two and a half hours. We meet twice a month. But it's very doable. We're able to do it. Other groups I've been in have been as small as 6 and I have at one point been in a group with, with 12 and that was a challenge. It was a challenge to make sure every man got met every, every session. But we, we made it work.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): And then I noticed too. So with you going through this work with the men's group, you know, we talked about your relationship with your kids. Now how has that impacted your relationship with your wife? Like did she her before you went to the men's group or was it like after you started doing the men's group?

Jason Lange: Well, I was in men's work by the time I met her and it was because of men's work and men's group that I was able to meet her, frankly, in that I, I had my life together enough and was able to be present enough with myself to walk across the room and introduce her and it was very woven in to our early relationship.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Right.

Jason Lange: One of the first things my. One of the first experiences my wife had with me as she started spending time with me was noticing the men I surrounded myself with in my life. And as she met those men and experienced their quality, their depth, their trust, it informed her about who I was as a man. Wow. A guy like that who has this kind of men, that's. That's incredible. I've never dated a man who had such high quality men in his life before. And it relaxed her, right? It actually relaxed her nervous system from the get go to feel that her joining into relationship with me was also her joining into a relationship with all the men and support I had built around me in my life. And they have shown up for me and my family time and time again, both in the stresses of life and helping me navigate. You know, I'll be married nine years this year. And it's not been the easiest journey. There's been some real challenges because we're both deeply growth oriented people who are, you know, not content with autopilot. And so we get into it, we get into fights, we get into closures, we get into interruptions with each other. And many times going to my men's group has resourced me to be able to come back and walk back into connection with my wife in a way I'm very certain I would not have been able to do solo. And it's also been a great place for me to get feedback about how I'm showing up in my life and relationship so that my wife doesn't have to be the only one giving me that feedback. It actually liberates her from having to always be the bad guy, so to speak, in terms of pointing out places where I do need to grow, where I do drop the ball, where I'm not standing in my integrity, in my men, they reflect that to me in their own way. Again, not from a shaming place, but from a place of compassion and love. And I can't tell you, man, many a times I've gone into a group, you know, I'm all charged up about some disconnection or rupture my wife and I have had and very convinced that I'm in the right, she's in the wrong. You know, I start sharing about what's going on, start to get some feedback from the guys who know me, love me, know my patterns. Hey, man, just, you know, want to point out here, that seems pretty clear to me, some of this is actually you and not Just her. And I'm like, no, it's not. And then they reflect it, and they reflect it, and it's like, oh, my God, you're right. I am contributing to this thing. And instead of going home and entrenching myself further into a fight, I get to walk home and say, hey, here's what I see about how I've been behaving in our relationship and how I think it's impacting you and us. And I want to take responsibility for that. And that is a completely different way to interact in my marriage. That totally opens my wife.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Yeah. Because that's always the hard thing, because I know my wife and I go through that too, and we're trying to get better at the open communication and the dialogue, but it's like, you know, simple example last night was, I put the wrong duvet cover on the blanket. You know, the. The bed wasn't made. She had everything in the washer. I put everything in the dryer. Then I'm like, oh, I'm just gonna get the bed made and just get it over with. She comes in. She's like, no, I wanted to put the other one on. And I'm like, how am I supposed to know? You don't tell me these things. And I'm. I'm feeling attacked, and it's just something stupid as a duvet cover. Right. She's like, no, I'm not. Not saying you're wrong. It's just. I was really hoping the other one was coming on, because we just bought that one, and it's a lot softer, newer, you know, yada, yada. And I'm like, okay, all right. Now I see where I reacted because I came in from a place of defense versus just listening. But it was just that walking into the room with the. To me, it was the tone and the intensity of it. I'm like, why are you angry at me? How about saying, thank you for making the bed so we can sleep?

Jason Lange: Totally. Very common in relationships. And one of the.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Just those little things.

Jason Lange: Yeah. You know, one thing that goes a long way for us men is being acknowledged for our effort, even when we've gotten it wrong.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Right.

Jason Lange: Oh, I appreciate that you tried that. Actually, that's not what I wanted, but thank you for the effort you put in. We'll often just. Okay, great. I feel seen, feel recognized, and now I'll deal with it. When we don't feel acknowledged for our effort, it's often extremely painful for us guys and where a lot of resentment will come from.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Yeah, I'VE noticed that too, because, like, men were doers or providers, you know, and it's like, oh, you need something fixed? Got it. Oh, I'm gonna take care of this. So she doesn't have to or they don't have to. We're just gonna do it right. And then people don't say anything. And then we give resentment. We get, you know, like, well, what's the point of me even trying? And then from the relationship aspect, I find. And women are usually more. They want that verbal component. They want to be understood. They want to be felt like they're being heard, not given a solution. So it's like, yeah, one of the things we came into is like, my wife will be going off about a problem she's having. Something's coming up during her day, and I'm like, do you want a solution or do you want me to hear? Because my first instinct is to give a solution or give a reason why this or that. And sometimes she just wants to vent. She just wants to talk about it and be heard. And that took me years to figure out was just, oh, I just need to listen. And you just want me to acknowledge what you're saying. Cool. But, you know, I still got that part in the back of my head going, well, this wouldn't be a problem if you just did this or if we just went there. But I'm not saying it now.

Jason Lange: Yeah, well, it's also one of the great, again, benefits I've seen in men's group is as men, we get to have that experience often in group where there's something we're needing to move or share or reveal. And the tendency of guys is going to be to immediately come in with advice or fix it, or you're just thinking about it wrong. And suddenly we get to have the experience of, wait a second, I just want to share this. Right? I don't need you to fix it for me right now. And we actually get to have the lived experience of being able to do that for other men and have them do that for us. Where oftentimes all we need to do is move. Feeling emotional energy needs to move, right? And then once that's cleared out, we're like, I know what I need to do and I'm going to do it great. Right? Now that I've felt some of that anger, it's like, okay, great, there's a conversation I need to have here. And it's funny how in men's group, we often get to be put in the other side of things. Where it can be quite overwhelming if we share something. You know, my kid's stuck with challenging with this. And suddenly eight voices are like, oh, have you tried this? You should send this.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): You should do this.

Jason Lange: And you're just like, whoa, back off. Back off a minute.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Right.

Jason Lange: I'm just sharing this first. Slow down. And for me, it's generated a lot more compassion for my wife in particular, when she does. Yeah, she just. She's. She can figure it out. Sometimes she just needs my presence for her to move some of that emotional energy so she can get reset, and then she'll deal with it. And if she does want my advice, she'll ask. She has no problem being very explicit. No, I actually want your help figuring this out. And then it's like, oh, yeah, great, now I have permission. I'm just going to come in. But learning to wait for that ask is really important.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): And with that, on the relationship side, I noticed you have, like, a program for, like, 12 perfect dates. I think it was called something like that. I was just curious about a little bit more information on how that structure works.

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. So this is a program I created with my wife as once we became kids, you know, we experienced the very thing so many couples experience, which is the thing that starts to bottom or drop to the bottom of the list is our time to be in relationship with each other. The thing that most relationships start with a high amount of. And by the time you're committed, kids, family, jobs, mortgage, it gets dropped to the bottom of the list all of the time. And we're both entrepreneurs. We have two kids, we're very busy. So the idea of 12 epic dates was okay. If you only had two or three hours a month from your own home, you don't even have time to go out. Right. It's like the kids are asleep and you got two hours before bed. How can you relate to each other to keep the fire, the spark, the relationship alive and actually rediscover why you fell in love with each other. Feel that erotic energy for each other, feel the deep heart connection. And so it's literally 12 guided epic dates where you sit down in your living room with your partner, you hit play, and my wife and I take you through a whole journey each time. Some of them about 90 minutes, some of them are a little longer, two and a half hours, and you break them up. But they're experiences that will really confront you with each other and why you fell in love with each other. What's in the way of feeling that connection, how do you talk to each other? How do you not talk to each other? All of that and more than anything else, get you in your bodies and deeply connected with each other. And in that way where it's like, okay, it's like a fire that we need to tend.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Right.

Jason Lange: Our relationship. Often, this is something, I think our culture often gets pretty wrong in the family system. When my wife and I's connection is strong, our kids thrive. When our connection is struggling, it shows up in our kids. And so we have to tend to the fire of our relationship, which means we are more to each other than co managers of a household and co managers of kids. We are lovers, too. And so 12 epic dates is about making the time and space so that fire can stay warm.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Nice. Yeah. Because it is important. It's again, my wife and I, I mean, for years, it was like we were barely doing things together, taking care of the kids, working. Before COVID I used to work in person. So I was driving an hour there, working eight hours, driving an hour back, you know, just gone all day. And then you come home and you're just tired. You just want to eat something and go to sleep, you know, and then things shifted in that area. I get to work from home now, which is great. But then it, you know, we. We had to sit down with this. Like, we don't really see each other anymore. We don't really talk to each other anymore. It's like we're so focused on the kids, the house, fixing things or doing this or doing that. It's like we're not doing things together. And so now we have a role where at least once a month, it doesn't matter what it is, we could go out for burgers, but we're just going to leave. The kids go. You know, sometimes it's having that lunch date and then going to Walmart, you know, to go, yeah, yeah, yeah. But again, no kids, no distraction, and we can actually talk. You know, it might not be perfect, but it's. We're trying to do things as if it was just us.

Jason Lange: Yes. That's so key. And part of, you know, what inspired us to create this. And, you know, we had a very lived experience of this. Even, you know, we're coaches, we do this stuff. After our. My. Our second kid was born, our son, you know, it was maybe like two months later, we were with my family, and we got one of those. The first. The first window of two hours where we could leave. Where we could just literally leave the newborn and our daughter. And we got we decided to go for a hike and we had to set a rule that was so hard for us that for this two hours, no talking about work and no talking about the kids. And we both sat there in silence for like the first four or five minutes, like, what the fuck do we talk about? And it was like remembering how to relate, like I said, as lovers again, as two human beings deeply curious and inspired by each other. And we would both catch each other drifting towards saying something about the kids or saying something about work. No, we're going to hold that boundary and challenge. But it reinvigorated us. Are we right? And like you said, that time becomes very scarce and I increasingly, the men I work with and teach, I think our responsibility as men is to be the one to tend that fire. Often I'm very involved as a father. I try to be very involved around the house and particularly just in those early years. Mom often does more. She's holding more. She's tracking the birthday invitation, she's tracking the new pack of underwear, she's tracking a lot. We track our own stuff as men, but it's different. It just is often different. And so one of the ways we can support then is, well, I'm going to be the one to take responsibility for our fire. I will support her in those other things. And I'm going to be the one that's saying, yeah, we're going out next Friday night, two hours, I got the babysitter, we're set, or whatever it might be to make sure you get that time. And it's one of the ways we can really lead these days in relationship.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Yeah, I like that because I, I always feel that we kind of see the bigger picture on some of the day to day stuff. But you know, the women usually have the minute detail where it's like, oh, I know we're going to a birthday party, but I don't know that it's little Susie and she likes unicorns and they got to be pink. They can't be purple because if you give her purple, have a meltdown and she's gluten allergies, so you can't bring this or that. And I'm going, okay, what does this kid need? Yeah, we just look at the higher level stuff on that. But yeah, at least with my wife specifically, she'll have all the detail stuff because again, kind of goes back to what we're talking about is the women are, the wives are talking to each other, the moms are talking to each other. We're not talking to the fathers, like I. Most of the time we don't even know the fathers until we show up. If we show.

Jason Lange: That's right, exactly.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): It's usually birthday parties is, yeah, you go ahead and do that. I'm gonna go mow the lawn or fix the porch or whatever. Like we don't really spend. At least I don't I'm gonna say, sure, yeah. Screaming 13 year old, you know, 13 kids running around. I, yeah. Just couldn't do it. So with that, just looking at the time, is there anything else you would like? I guess any man listening that's on the fence. Maybe they're just not sure, you know, where can they go to do a men's group? How should they make a men's group? You know what's. Especially if they're feeling that loneliness where they just don't know where to go or they don't have any quote unquote friends or relationships. Maybe they are. That guy that is sitting at home all day playing video games, goes to work, doesn't talk to anybody, comes back, does the same thing over and over. Like where should those guys go?

Jason Lange: Or start with, yeah, yeah, obviously I'm a resource, my website's a resource. But the good news is this work is growing more and more and it's not just dependent on me. You know, whether it's meetup.com, whether it's eventbrite, you know, these days you can Google men's group, men's circle near me. Often therapists will know good places to start. And it's one of the ways I like to support men where they're like, hey, I don't know where to start. Here's where I live. And often I know, you know, what's the, what's the local scene like? Or where can you begin? Or I just help a man start it if there's nothing there himself. It's like, okay, well you be the one. But even more simple than that, what I would say is most men I know, when I ask them like, hey, is there at least one man in your life, for whatever reason you have had an impulse to connect more with you? Just get a sense you two could go deeper, right? Maybe you just had like a two minute conversation at a birthday party. You're like, yeah, that guy's solid. I don't know, I liked him. Or there's someone at work you know you've connected with. And what I say is be the one to take the lead. So call up that man, shoot him an email, shoot him a Text and say, hey, I'd love to get together for a coffee or go for a quick walk sometime. You open to that and then you be the one on that connection to go first and take it deeper than we're taught as default culture, as men. And so this is something I'm actually creating a kit for guys around of just like very simple, you can go deeper by share. Somewhere you're in pain with that man, Literally, where is somewhere in your life you are in pain? What is something in your life you are celebrating? What is something in your life you are longing for? And then ask him to do the same and then spend a couple minutes and just talk about after that. What does it feel like to be sitting here with each other now? And if you do that with a man, not every man is going to join you in that. That's the honest truth. Some men are just locked up and they're like, no. But more men than you realize will be so thankful to have had a moment of realness in honesty with you. And that connection will often be so strong you will naturally want to find your way back to each other again. And men need that right now more than ever. So be the one, reach out, invite another man into some kind of deeper

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): connection and with that. So I know in person is always best, but can an online group work just as well?

Jason Lange: Absolutely. You know, I, I started doing leading this work three years before COVID and transitioned quite a bit of the stuff I was doing to online during that time. And yes, in the ideal world, we'd all be meeting in a room where we can physically hug each other, support each other, just be in the space with each other. But sometimes either men live in a location where there just aren't that many men around who are interested in this kind of thing or lifestyle wise. For me, sometimes it's been easier to drop into my virtual groups. I'm able to see men in parts of the country I would never see otherwise that I deeply care about and that it fits into the lifestyle of how family forward I am. I want to be present with my kids. It's like, yeah, great, I can just go downstairs to my office and da da da da. So it's absolutely possible to do it virtual. And virtual is going to be so much better than nothing at all. So if your decision is in person, group or nothing, go virtual. You can get 80 to 90% of the benefits of a group through that format. And then if you can create enough virtual connection, it means when you guys do get together in person. It's going to be so much more magical because you know each other, you trust each other. And many men I work with now, I support them in starting virtual groups with men sometimes scattered all around the country. And then they, they come together for a weekend or two a year to kind of ignite the in person fire. And it works beautifully for them.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Nice. I like that. So why don't you let people know where they can find you? I'll add everything in the show notes as well. That way they can link up to you, see your programs and all that good stuff.

Jason Lange: Great. Yeah. Easiest way to keep up with me and everything I'm up to is to go to my website, which is evolutionary.men. so it's not dot com, it's dot men. And on there you'll find writings, podcasts, programs, a contact form. So if you're like, if you're like that guy you said of hey, I want to join a group. I don't know where to start. Write me an email, I'll point you in the right direction. It does not have to be with me. I am quite lit up about getting guys into groups, no matter who it's with. And if you're early on your journey or just curious about, you know, what men's work might mean to you, I have a great quiz for guys at Evolutionary Men Quiz. And you know, it's pretty rigorous. It'll take you 20 minutes and it's going to show you two things. What's your edge as a man, meaning your greatest strength? And what does that almost always reveal about your biggest blind spot and the place you need to grow the most as a man to get more of what you want. And it's pretty fun, pretty revealing, and can be a great thing then to bring into your men's group as well.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Nice. And one question on that I forgot to ask. Is it good to have. I don't know if the saying leader is the right word, but someone who's facilitating, someone who's like making sure that we're. The conversation's flowing, does it get to kind of appoint one person for that or kind of change it up each group or each meeting?

Jason Lange: So totally. Yes. You always want someone holding leadership in time, literally sticking to the timer is going to be one of the hardest things for any men's group to do. Just. It's so easy to get leaky. And when you get leaky, the structure suffers. Often we'll have a leader do both, but they can be two different roles. With most groups, I do so some groups, right? Men work with me. They're joining a men's group. I'm leading, so I'm the leader. I'm providing the leadership. I'm holding the structure. That is one way to do it. There's lots of groups like that. I'm particularly passionate about teaching men to start their own groups, what I call the kind of decentralized model, because those last the longest. Because then you're not reliant on me. You're not having to pay me, right? This is your baby. And in that model, I do teach rotating leadership. So someone will kind of take the torch for a period of time, and they will hold the leadership position and bring the structure and make sure everybody's accountable and on time, and then at some point, pass the baton to someone else. You could do that every meeting, but sometimes it's nice to just kind of sink in and let someone take the lead for a while. And then, you know what I've discovered just from having led these groups? My absolute favorite way to do it now is for leadership to happen in dyads. So two men at a time take the lead. Because then in between sessions, they are connecting and planning the next session together. And that time they're spending with each other deepens their relationship. And as that rotates throughout the group, all these pairs of men are deepening, which deepens the entire group throughout the whole journey. And it relieves any one man of having to feel the burden of leading the whole group. Because, yeah, a lot of us are coming to men's group because we're like, I'm so tired. I'm leading everywhere else in my life. I don't want to lead here. But when we have a buddy, it makes it relational. It makes it a lot more fun.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): And with that. So when they're leading the group, should they kind of have a theme or topic of interest that they want to talk about? Or is it more just, you know, this is what's going up for me. How do you guys feel about that? Let someone.

Jason Lange: Yeah, both. Both. And in that. So some of my trainings are about actually giving some structures for. Here's how you create a really deep group. So come in, do this practice, talk about this thing. Um, and it's great, you know, as. As men get fired up and on their own growth journeys, you can always bring stuff like that in. And long term, what most groups will have is some kind of structure. They're wrapping all of that around, which is really making time for each man to be heard and Supported in the ways he needs. And so some weeks there might be a theme or a discussion, but some weeks there might not. The only thing I'd say with themes or discussions is to make sure it doesn't get too conceptual, because it's very easy for a group to talk about masculinity and then not actually be connecting about what's true in their life or talk about something. And so when I say, like, a theme, usually what I mean is some kind of practice, like, what are we actually going to do here in this group with each other that's going to be edgy for us or vulnerable for us or challenging for us. And that can be, you know, physical, meditative, relational. There's so many different things there. But, yeah, that's part of the fun. And that also, you know, just to put a cherry on the top, it helps keep a group alive because if you're rotating leadership and any man starts to find he's losing interest in the group because he's not getting something he wants from, actually shifts the responsibility to him to then bring it next time he's leading, I want to do more physical embodiment practice. Okay. I'm taking the lead for the next three months. So every meeting, we're starting the first 20 minutes with some Kundalini or some Qigong or some breath work or something like that. He can bring the thing he's wanting more of, and he starts to get nourished by it. So it works really well.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Nice. Because. Yeah, you don't want to have. You know, it's like going into a meeting, having a meeting for the sake of having a meeting, or, you know, bringing that PowerPoint for the sake of having a PowerPoint. It's. You want to be engaged in it. You don't want to just have everyone sitting there wondering why they're there. You know, it's.

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. If you. If it gets boring like that, usually what it means is the group is playing it way too safe. You're playing too safe with each other. Right. You're not revealing enough. You're not challenging each other enough. A good group will be spicy. It will keep you on your toes. And for me, when I walk away from one of my men's groups, the deep sense I have is that was time really well spent in a life where I don't have a lot of time to spend. So whatever it takes to get there, that's the thing. You want to keep working. So every man leaves and he's like, I'm so glad I showed up this week.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Nice. All right. And with that, man, I appreciate your time. This was a little educational for me because, like I said, I'm gonna be trying to use some of these practices on this week, so it couldn't be better.

Jason Lange: Hey, love it.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): But yeah. Again, I'll put your links in the show notes. I hope people reach out to you. I just hope more men realize that they don't have to be alone. Like, there is help out there. There's other guys feeling exactly what you're feeling. There is this underlying current of we want to be in something, we just don't know what.

Jason Lange: Yes.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): So like you said earlier, we'll be the one to make it. Be the person to start, you know, and just see how it goes.

Jason Lange: Absolutely.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): So thank you, sir.

Jason Lange: Awesome. Thank you.

Host (The Shaman Stories Podcast): Thank you for tuning in. Be sure to, like, share and subscribe. And if something our guests shared resonated with you, connect out to them. That's what these stories are here for. And if you're looking for deeper healing or support, you can always find me@pnw shamanichealing.com See you in the next episode.