Jason Lange: All right, and welcome back, everyone. Super pumped, been a minute. But once Again, joined by Dr. Luke Adler, my brother at arms, in the Heart of Shadow program, back for another episode of our Heart of Shadows series. Welcome back, my friend.

Luke Adler: Thank you, brother.

Jason Lange: And yeah, we got a couple topics we're going to dive into today, but one is something that's been on my mind because I've seen it kind of rolling through men's work culture and online in particular, and it's something I want to challenge a little bit, which is right now, in this moment in time, are we, as men, victims? Right? Have we had our manhood taken away from us? Have we been castrated by women and society and some of the different stories that, you know, inevitably kind of push men into more red pill culture? And why, you know, are some of these narratives out there? I think, you know, what kind of truth is there to them? And then, you know, what's our take in terms of the work we're doing around it? It's kind of what I'd love to explore a bit with you today.

Luke Adler: This is going to be a fun one, Jason. Yeah, let's, let's talk about it. And, you know, it's obviously we have this, this response to that with a red pill culture, you know, the, the, the current illustration of masculinity with the US Presidency and all of its full display, which is essentially, it's actually pretty interesting. It's fuck you and whatever you say. Whatever I say is the truth. So it's not just a return to like a Marlboro man, which we've talked about, kind of a romantic masculinity. It's, it's a, it's almost a new kind of masculinity that's incredibly harsh and heartless and has no sensibility for what's sensible or objectively true, for that matter. And so it's this kind of newer sense of masculinity is actually the truth, is what I fucking say it is. So that's an interesting response to this idea of, you know, men, particularly white men, are, you know, need to, need to pay for the sins of our grandfathers and therefore need to kind of give power back to everyone else. Right. And so we find ourselves here victims, you Know, in its most extreme point of view, we're victims to this kind of reparations of all these shitty things that we've done. So, you know what? Fuck you. Fuck everyone. What I say, it's not just masculinity anymore. It's. It's total domination. Right? This is what is being espoused. So it's. It's kind of a new, you know, we talk about as. As toxic masculinity. It's a new kind of masculinity, this victim response. And I. I can't wait to talk about this more, Jason. Let's. Let's do it.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think it's got a flavor, too, of. I mean, it's like pure concentrated masculinity as power over. So domination is what makes you, right, a man. When you. You just. You not only beat the other person down, but you just steamroll them completely. And I think part of what had.

Luke Adler: Me.

Jason Lange: Interested in this topic is the way it's hitting at both a cultural, political level, but then even, you know, the way I'm seeing it show up in social media and men's work. And so this is part of, you know, what I was interested in talking about. And then I think we're going to take it deeper around. There is a power in activating someone's connection to their victimhood. Right? So if I am the one that gives you permission or tells you the story as to why you're a victim, it's very common. I mean, this is like a cult control tactic in a lot of ways that you then feel connected to me. I see you. Right? It's not your fault. It's their fault. It's someone else's fault. Right? And, you know, there's a time and place for all that, for sure, but I think part of what we want to explore is, well, why, you know, why are we doing that and how is part of the work we're doing, I think an antidote, frankly, to that dangerous power, you know, something we've talked about before. Power of a group to kind of inoculate us and all kinds of different ways. But it's been one of those things where it's like, yeah, you know, I think for a lot of men, the story we hear is I'm not allowed to be a man anymore. Manhood is under attack. Masculinity is under attack. And I don't know, maybe. Maybe I'm just in some kind of fucking bubble. I've been leading men's work now for, you know, eight or nine Years, I've been involved in it for longer. And I've never been attacked for my manhood or my masculinity or for being a man. What I have seen is shitty masculine behavior, be attacked and be spoken out against, in my sense is that's more of what's happening in the culture. But because most men don't even know inside their own body what their connection to healthy masculinity is, they conflate the two, right? That's. Oh, all men are being attacked. It's like, no, I really don't think we are. In a lot of ways. Some of the shitty behavior many men have acted upon certainly has been under attack or has gotten pushback, you could say. And to me, you know, that part of the story right now is, yeah, we are fucking being asked to evolve as men. Right? It's right in the name of my organization, Evolutionary Men. And some guys don't want to look at that, some guys don't want to have to take responsibility for that. But guess what? So the fuck is everyone else? Yeah, women, trans. Everybody is having to figure out a new way to be in the world. And it, it just makes such an easy story. And frankly, clickbait, that, well, it's harder for us right now when, yeah, there's certain stats that are quite hard for us. You know, we've talked a lot about suicide, loneliness, and some of the different epidemics, addiction that men are going through. And, you know, most men don't get raped. Most men don't get killed by spouses. Right. Like the. There's a whole other side of that that doesn't get talked about. That's still pretty prevalent in the world. Most men are not considered property in, you know, in some cult. So it, you know, I've been on this high horse lately. I think you and I maybe talked about it in an episode, but ranking pain just creates more pain. Yeah, right. This when we start to rank, oh, my pain's worse than yours. You, you're not allowed to talk about any of that. Sometimes I think that gets pulled into some of this mix where, well, you can't talk about that as man, because women, da, da, da, da. And you know, there is a truth to that. I will acknowledge that sometimes I think that comes forward. But this is the pushback. Ranking pain doesn't matter.

Luke Adler: Right?

Jason Lange: Healthy men create a healthy world. Healthy women create a healthy world. Like, we want everybody to be doing better and thriving and not necessarily making it a story. That. And then I think the other thing that just, you know, set me off a little bit is this idea of what it does when it's someone else's fault, it's immediately taking away. If the very men we're speaking to about someone else has taken your power, it's women's fault. It's da da da's fault. That story takes away your power, takes away your agency. Oh, okay. Yeah. Women are castrating us. Men. Fuck. So what do I do? Right, Right. I have to make an enemy out of women now versus, okay, well, maybe there's somewhere for me to grow here and something. A place for me to take responsibility in shifting the whole narrative inside myself and for men at large.

Luke Adler: Yeah, we're zeroing in on, on.

Jason Lange: A.

Luke Adler: Couple things that are important. One is that it's just easier to get angry, to get reactive, and to blame other people emotionally energetically. It's, it's a, it's the most easy, lazy move, you know, in a relational dynamic to just say, you know what? Fuck you. I don't want to deal with what you're saying. I think it's, this is my truth. You know, whatever truth is in terms of kind of relative truth, it's difficult. It's. It takes more energy to just pause and go, how might I be contributing to this dynamic? In many cases for men, how might, how might I be completely unaware of my contribution to this dysfunction because of the privilege I've had to not have to be aware? And we could give examples of such a thing. So on one level, there's a kind of laziness or languor or stupor where we're just like, I don't want to exert the effort to examine the privilege that I might have as a white man. I just want to keep having the power that I'm used to having. So that's a kind of surface response. The secondary thing that happens in a, in a victim dynamic where someone points out my pain, whether it's Donald Trump or even a men's coach that you really like. Like, wow, you know, women are asking, women are asking, Jason, you and I, to, to grow. It's like, all right, I kind of get that. I appreciate that. I like women. So I want to grow. And, you know, I, I, I align with that. But there's something else that's being asked of us, and that's that any dynamic where we're being empowered in response to some kind of oppressive force, it sets up a child parent dynamic between me and the person who's calling that out. And so, you know, I might Be in the crowd yelling against some cause with other people. But it's still non agentic. There's not as much agency that I have because I'm following someone. You know, what it really points to is my own deficiency, my own linking in to the source of inspiration and direction for myself and my life. And so I'm vulnerable, I'm vulnerable to someone pointing that out because of my own depression and my own anxiety. Right. So the, the, the victim state, in a certain sense, it, it, it is already there to be picked on by someone else who's also maybe not willing to do the deeper work of finding that place of inspiration inside themselves. Which means mining what is not inspired, you know, what is kind of, you know, despired in a way, depressed from life. And so that's an old game, it's an old trick, right. It will always be a trick that's applicable in relationship. You're doing this to me and all my friends agree with me, even my therapist agrees that you're doing this to me. It's like we can go build consensus around a point of view endlessly and usually find a 50, 50 divide on any point of view. But like you're saying, we are being asked to evolve and evolve. We will like it or not. And it's, even, it's, it's inevitable that in any victim, hero, victim, hero, perpetrator, triangle dynamic, that the hero and the perpetrator and the victim have to challenge each other's roles, meaning the hero has to be cut asunder because the victim wants his power back. You know, we'll see that continue to play out in mass and culture and in, in any organization where it's set up that way, whether it's a guru disciple relationship. But the power differential is, is really fixed and the leader is not willing to be transparent about their humanity. You know, you're going to have at some point the victims, the followers overthrow the leader. Because we all, we all want agency eventually we want to feel our own power. Right. So this is the invitation into shadow work and a men's group that's steeped in shadow work, which is, which is not a response to victimhood. It's not, it doesn't engage in that triangle, you know, a victim mentality, it's different. What we're offering is something different.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think that dovetails nicely into, right. How to start to connect these two. So you know, we, we do deep shadow work with men and teach them a mechanism to bring it into their life over time. Women, continuity with other men in that shadow work, it has an interesting power. And what I mean by that is like we're talking about whether it's an autocrat or a cult leader, whoever that might be, if I can activate either that victim in you, which another way to put that is if I can trigger you. So if I can trigger you into that limbic state in your. In your brain stem of fight or flight or anger or reactivity or sorrow or, you know, whatever that might be, I suddenly have power over you, right. So if I can trig you. So whether it's more the connecting you to your victimhood and suddenly we have a connection. But, you know, there's also just a version of this. Yeah. If I can literally trigger you, you snowflake lib. Right. I suddenly have power over you. Right. Because now you're having to engage in this different way with me and you're reacting to me. So part of the cool thing about shadow work, and I actually think one of our responsibilities for men right now, and this is across the political spectrum, I don't give a shit if you're a liberal, conservative or whatever, it's having the capacity to work with your triggers, right? So whatever you do in terms of engagement, culturally, politically, whatever, it's not coming from that triggered place, right? Because the second you're triggered, the second you're susceptible, I mean, right? This is a fucking science for, you know, some politicians now, and absolutely for social media, we see it all the time. They know exactly who triggers you in your newsfeed or whatever it might be. And you will see. I will see over time, it knows whose post I'm spending the most time reading, even if I don't comment on it, even if I don't like it. And guess whose posts I start seeing more of? Are they generally posts about cool shit that make me happy and feel good? No, they're posts that. They have it dialed in so heavy they can tell it's creating reactivity in my body, which makes me engage in a way and get upset or whatever. And that same mechanism can be used at a personal, you know, a personal level. So one of the ways in a. In, you know, here. Here's the. The challenge, I guess what I'm maybe pointing to in this paradigm of people who weaponize victimhood and then try to point it out at someone or some group or some subculture, right? Whether it's women, transgender people, immigrants, you name it, oftentimes they are pointing to some kind of real pain. So I'm not here to discount the pain Right. The thing that's, I think, complex is it's usually not enacted by individuals. These are cultural transformations we're experiencing. And so we want to point to, oh, it's just the women doing it, but it's. No, it's actually culture in human consciousness that is changing in a way that's requiring us to participate in a different way. And that's much harder to wrap your head around, around. How the fuck do we change that? Well, we can't. Well, I'll make you angry at this person, so that'll, you know, that's the low hanging fruit in a sense. But one of the ways, so we, you know, complex systems, systems theory, cultural evolution, all that shit, it can feel disempowering. It's, it's quite literally like, well, what can I do? What can I do? Right? I have no influence, I have no any of this power. One of the powers of the shadow work we're talking about is one way you can take power back is by learning to work your triggers and not get triggered by those very things or people, because then you have more agency in the part of your life you can control, which is your reactivity in what you choose to put your attention on and how it feels to do that. So this is one of the real key takeaways. I've had to start working, right? I've had to work it a lot over the last years. Different ways I think about the world and how it's being run and the types of masculinity that are out there. And I've had to notice that, ooh, that triggered reactivity. It doesn't change shit in a sense. So I get my nervous system worked up and that then flows into my wellbeing, my family's well being, my community's wellbeing. And guess what? That part isn't anyone's fault, isn't any culture's fault. That's how my working with this thing in, in, in my, these things in my nervous system, which, in one of our advanced programs, we kind of start to break down some of the different types of shadow. And you know, one of the biggest ones obviously is often projection. And that's one where we can really take a lot of power back by doing some shadow work and learning what gets triggered in our system. And while we can't always change what's happening, we can change our reaction to it, which is powerful.

Luke Adler: Yeah, well said. So many nuggets, so many nuggets in there. The, the, the, the thing about victim consciousness that you're pointing to is that we said this when we were. When we were meeting earlier is that when someone says, you know, hey, you're in pain. And this is why your heart. Your heart opens. It does feel good. Oh, my God, you see me. My God, it feels so good to be seen. And then there's an opening there. So then I'm open. And then you might say, and here's this reason, and here's this reason why you feel this way. And then I feel more open. And then you might say something, whether it's, you know, in a workshop or in a podcast or in a YouTube video that really cracks me open. And then I might be crying or I might be angry. I might feel grief, or I might feel anger. And when you get me to be cathartic, you know, to release pain that I've been holding in my body and I feel a sense of agency because now I'm angry, or I feel a sense of relief because I've relieved some grief that I've been holding, then you can tell me anything about reality. Anything. You can literally construct reality. For me, it doesn't have to be based in science or consensus or research or data. It can just be based in this father or mother figure that I trust now who's helped me feel better. Mommy, Daddy, you've made me feel better. And so I will believe anything you tell me. It's like, when I was a kid, someone, one of my buddies was like, well, this is how this works in science. And I was like, did your mom tell you that? And he's like, no. And I'm like, yeah, okay, dude, that's not true. See, it brings us back to such a primitive place that when someone helps us release our pain, like the parent that we wish, or maybe we're lucky enough to have to help us process our pain. And then hopefully our parent was responsible. But if they weren't, they could then tell us anything. Like, you and I have done a lot of work with men who are recovering from religious trauma, cult trauma, religious abuse. And this is a perfect example of. You go into a place where there's a sense of belonging, maybe there's some catharsis, you feel better, and then you are given this constructed reality that's about us against them, and you believe it because, well, everyone's believing it. But then as you get older, you real. You know, many men we work with realize, oh, my gosh, this is. I don't align with this. Something in me does not align with this. Now that I'm Older, right. So this, this, this kind of victim dynamic, it's very seductive. It's very seductive. And, you know, it feels good. We have a sense of belong, we have a sense of purpose. And really our invitation is to say, sure, that is, that is a state of consciousness, that is real and that's there's a pathway there to relationship. But that path is limited. And ultimately you will seek your own power for yourself. You will want to know for yourself what reality is. You will not want to take someone's word for it. This is just the nature of evolution. Eventually you want to know for yourself. You don't want to know from your clergyman or your president or fucking Charlie Kirk, whoever the fuck it might be. Jordan Peterson. You're not going to. You don't want to trust these guys anymore. You want to know. And truly the only way to know is to explore your own inner territory. To know what has set up the roadblocks inside your mind, body and your heart to limit you from experiencing connection, love, fulfillment and satisfaction. And I just want to say one thing about the way we do shadow work and the way our program, Heart of Shadow is organized, which is so important and it's so unique, is yes, Jason and I lead a 10 week program where you learn, you learn the context energetically around depth work, shadow work, how to connect, how to be transparent, vulnerable, how to break through, how to have catharsis, how to support one another. But the real, the real amazing thing about the Heart of Shadow is that after the 10 weeks, you now have the, the steering wheel to the driver's seat of the process. And you know, it's not maybe the best business model, but the idea is to make ourselves obsolete, that you don't need Jason and I anymore because you know how to create depth and support. That's not framed in a victim consciousness, but it's framed in, here's the key, a peer to peer sense of ownership for the quality and depth of the experience. And then your job, and my job is to just tune that here and there with different programs and offerings. But deeper than wanting to blame and to hate people and to have a oppositional relationship to life is a longing that we all have for an integrated sense of power and connection and vitality. And when I'm fighting against you to validate who I am, I can't get vitality. I can only feel alive by continuing to hate you, which is depleting. Hatred is exhausting. It's not, it's not energizing. I mean, it's energizing initially when you get the dopamine hit of like, hurrah, we hate black people. Hurrah, we hate white people. It's like, that's fun, right? And then it's tiring. There's, there's a, there's a much more sustainable, enlivening, energizing, inspiring pathway to life. And it, it has to do with shared power, shared peer to peer experience of power. It's the new model of evolutionary living where we create enough space for each other's gifts and beauty to emerge together. And of course, one of the amazing things about the program is that you and I embody that because we share power in our creation of it. And it's, it's very unique, you know, and it's, it's, it is what men are being asked to do. Men are not being asked to not be powerful anymore. We're being asked to share power. That doesn't mean we don't get to be powerful. It means we get to be more powerful. And that's not an indictment on your power and sovereignty and masculinity and sexiness and fuckability. It's not, it's really gotten confused.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I love that because it really is, I think maybe part of the new currency for the masculinity, you know, we're interested in promoting in the world is in some sense your power is a man is gauged by how well do you empower those around you.

Luke Adler: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Right. So, yeah, the more you're empowering everyone around you, the more powerful you are. Like, that's the currency. It's not the more you can accumulate for yourself and create more of a gap. It's actually, can I empower everyone around me?

Luke Adler: Yes.

Jason Lange: And you know, there's a piece, I think implicit in, well explicit when we actually run the group and we give the guys our agreements. But in our work, is it. And not, you know, I'll be frank for, you know, to men listening. Not every guy is up for this. Not every guy is up for this. And that is the capacity to take responsibility not only. And here's the fucking thing, not only for our pain, but also the pain men before us have caused, which is different than falling on the sword of shame. And oh my God, we're pieces of shit. We don't deserve anything. But that victim mentality that can be weaponized and marketed honestly.

Luke Adler: Right.

Jason Lange: What it's really doing is it's not your fault. Oh, fuck. Yeah, you're right. It's not my fault. It's not my fault. It's fucking their fault. It's not my fault. So I don't have, you know, I don't have to change. I don't have to do anything. But what we're asking men to do at a very personal level is to take responsibility. And, you know, this does show up, right? I've talked about this with you before. I've talked about it on this, on my podcast before. You know, even in our lineage, in our family systems, right? It's not about. We got guys coming from pretty fucked up environments, and it's not even about demonizing or blaming the people who, who did that, but it is about acknowledging the impact and taking responsibility. You know, I'm not for all this Law of Attraction secret shit where it's like, oh, yeah, I know some part of your soul asked to be abused so you could grow and evolve. Like, that's, that's dark shit in, in my mind. But you didn't ask for it, but it happened to you. And now it is your responsibility for what are you going to do with the cards you were dealt? How are you going to handle that pain? How are you not going to propagate that pain beyond you? And that's a big part of what we're asking men to do, is to take responsibility for our own pain and yes, for the pain of unconscious men out there that came before us. Because, I mean, the God's fucking honest truth is, if we don't clean up the mess, who does? Like, literally, who. Who's going to do it, right? It's not like, you know, this is a big part of, I think certainly the evolution I've had to go through as a leader, and I think a lot of leaders do, where it's like, wow, responsibility just means as soon as I become aware of the thing, I am now complicit in it, right? Like, if I see the. Someone else will handle it. Doesn't work that way, right? And there's a deep responsibility that not everyone wants to take on, you know, and this does. Again, this is very different from taking on the shame of it that it's my fault, but it's the, well, who the fuck else is going to write the ship, right, if we're not willing to do it? Because most often the men who caused some of this damage, let's say they're not here doing the work. They're.

Luke Adler: They're.

Jason Lange: They're not going to be taken ownership and responsibility. So we want to do as much as we can in our systems and to take some Responsibility for that. I didn't create the culture of patriarchy or objectification, but it's there, and now I have a part in healing it. And guess what? One of the best ways to do that is handle my own shit, do my shadow work, learn to work with my own internal triggers and cultural biases and whatnot, and become a more free and liberated man who is powered, empowered by a group of men, you know, who, quite frankly, hold me in my fullness, my vulnerability, my strength. And I think it's just such a radically different thing that it's much fucking harder to sell. Right? Like, hey, do you want to step on this path of taking full responsibility for your pain and the pain the men before you have created? It's like, no, no. I just want to get on Twitter and get mad. Like, that feels. That's much easier. Yeah, Right. But there are men, and we know them. We see them come to every cohort who are a yes to that. And to me, that is like, one of the greatest hopes, you know, and reasons I have to be hopeful about the future is that, yeah, there are men who are taking responsibility for this. There are men who have lived through the most horrible conditions we've worked deeply with, around abuse or bullying or sexual abuse or drug addiction, you name it. And they're fucking showing up and saying, okay, I'm ready to deal with this. I'm ready to deal with this. It doesn't do me any good to just keep blaming, blaming, blaming. It sucks. I want to make sure no other man ever has to experience that. I wish it hadn't happened to me, but it did. And here I am handling it. And to me, that is like, that's the most badass man you can imagine.

Luke Adler: Yeah, that's. Imagine that's a fucking badass. I mean, that is really the evolution of masculinity, humanity that we're on the cusp of. And just to highlight what you shared, there is an evolutionary step around empowerment where, you know, there's a. There's a step to actually let your reactivity out and to blame and to, you know, not internalize. And so that might be appealing. That, obviously is very appealing to a lot of men right now. Yeah, you all. It's like, okay, you know, that that's an interim step to the step that we're talking about. But what I would say with all of you out there is, you know, there's space for your reactivity. There's space for your wanting to blame. That's. That falls within the context of shadow Work is we get to be reactive. We just do so consciously knowing that that's not our highest response, but that is in there and we need to make space for it, we need to honor it, we need to not suppress it. The idea of shadow work is we're not suppressing anything. But if you feel like you're out there and you just need to keep being pissed at people, you need to blame someone for a while, then Heart of Shadow is probably not the program for you. If you, if you just need to be there, if you need to listen to some of these red pill people and, and really just work on your throat chakra and just blame and yell and, and that feels good to you, then, you know, do that. But at some point you'll be ready. You'll be ready to share that power with others. And what I, what I think we find is we find men who are like, they don't want to do that. They've, it's not even that they've put time in blaming. Maybe they have, maybe they haven't, but they're ready for more workability and flow in their life, for more love and connection and vitality where, yes, they feel empowered. And that's the invitation to Heart of Shadow. You know, so late September is our next cohort and we have a payment plan that people can sign up for nine weeks of, nine weeks of Zoom, an incredible retreat in Northern California, you know, five star everything. So wonderful accommodations in wine country. It's just stunning and world class facilitation. You know, Jason, you and I have been doing this a long time and then a long time before our collaboration. So, you know, really you're working with people who are incredibly dedicated to this transformation. And yes, if we don't do it, it will not get done. If you're thinking someone else is going to go out there and lead the world, no, it's us. So if you feel a call to contribute, this is a pathway not just for your own healing and health, but to make a difference. Right? And this is our call. If you are, if you are feeling that you want to make a difference in the world, in a world that's desperate for a difference to be made, join Heart of Shadow. You will be utterly empowered, not just in 10 weeks, but in a lifetime of support that will be available to you through our program. Luke Adler: Yeah, Great to see you, brother.

Jason Lange: You're interested in working with me around dating relationships or your masculine presence in the world? Just go to evolutionary men. Apply.