Shadow Work Helps Digest Life

Jason Lange: All right, everybody. Well, welcome back. I am once again incredibly excited to be joined by my good friend, Dr. Luke Adler, who's my co facilitator in the Heart of Shadow program, which we have another cohort of coming up here soon. And today we wanted to kind of shake things up a little bit. And, you know, we've talked about this a little bit, but maybe not highlighted it as strongly as we could, but Luke has been a doctor of Chinese medicine for quite a while and has worked with over 50,000 healing sessions, like working with clients with acupuncture needles and Chinese herbs and kind of a more holistic approach, and has an incredibly deep wisdom in this area. And this dovetails with how he and I met, which was through shadow work, despite all this. So I kind of wanted to just grill you a little bit in. In a positive way about, you know, the work you do in that arena and how it dovetails and doesn't dovetail, you know, with shadow work as these two modalities that I think, you know, are pretty related but kind of come at things in a different way.

Luke Adler: Yeah, I think this is a great conversation to really bring in physiology and visceral sensations and just, you know, our program's all about vitality. Heart of Shadow. So the. Are you getting my mic, Jason?

Jason Lange: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You sound good.

Luke Adler: Okay. Sorry. So, you know, really from the very beginning why I pursued a degree in Chinese medicine and an eventual doctorate is that my view is if there is something off with the body physically, that there's something off with the body mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. And, of course, that was my view coming into Chinese medicine and why I eventually chose to study it is that's the core principle of Chinese medicine, is that if there's a disharmony in the body, there's a disharmony in the spirit, there's a disharmony in the mind, and that's in the ancient text of the Yellow Emperor that was written 2000 years ago in the Han dynasty. That is at the very core of this kind of treatise that holds up the entire pantheon of medical theory. And, you know, it was. It was incredibly exciting to start that journey and to approach every person. Patient is what we call people clinically around that. So if they're coming in with a cold or a flu, or they're coming in with a stomachache, or they're coming in even. Even like they hurt their shoulder.

Jason Lange: Right.

Luke Adler: The question was always like, well, what's. What's really going on? What happened when. When you caught the cold? What happened when you're. You sprained your ankle, you know, when you stubbed your toe? What was going on in that situation? Essentially, like, what. What is the universe kind of arranging for you to see about yourself and life? And, you know, as a. As a deeply devoted student of life, I was just in the beginning, so enthralled and fascinated with that question and always wanting to lead in a session with that, like, okay, so, Kim, so what? So tell me, you know, what's going on in your marriage, you know, what's. What's going on with your children? What's going on with your boss? And, you know, some people were open to that, and some people. Some people weren't open with that. Yeah, they just wanted me to fix their physical complaint. And, and for me, I really had to honor that. I never wanted to practice that way. I don't want to just be a physical clinician. I am a mind body clinician. I'm a mind body healer. That. That's always been my approach. And of course, that's why you and I met, because at a certain point, I wanted to have a much deeper understanding of, you know, I've always had a good understanding of how it manifests physically, but how does it originate energetically, emotionally, historically, culturally, sexually? And that's where, you know, our study, Jason, you and me, our study in shadow work, really filled in all of those gaps, and it gave me the. The. The tools to help intervene there. Because prior to that, I was intervening with needles, with herbs, with words, you know, a lot of counseling and coaching, but I didn't have the skills that, that you and I have become, I'd say mass, you know, masterful at where we're in that stage of becoming, you know, very expert in facilitating deep shadow work. And, you know, that. That has completely. I mean, it's really rounded out myself as a clinician and a healer where I feel I can address things physically, I can address them emotionally, and I can. I can hold this very nuanced space into the. The deep, deep energetic field where people's pain is rooted, you know, where it's tendrilled in to their. To their being itself. Right. And that's where shadow work is just so exciting because to me, it really. We you know, our program is called Heart of Shadow because we get to the very heart of where people are dis eased, you know, where they're not well or they're not, you know, not. Not aware of what's actually generating their life and their health and their experience. So I think that's a little bit of an introduction. I can keep going, but.

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. And what are. I'm curious, like, you know, are there any common themes or patterns? You know, the. The beauty of, you know, the sheer amount of sessions you've done is I'm. I'm sure you start to see some commonalities, right, in terms of things that can grow wrong or be pathologized or that dis. Ease in the system. You know, what are some of the things I would maybe say, particularly for men right now? You see men showing up with, you know, when they're just like, hey, stick some needles in me. This is wrong. Or I need some herbs, right? Like, what are the things that really concern guys?

Luke Adler: Yeah. Well, I have to. I have to bring it down to the. The first. The first level of. Of pathology that I see with men and women, but it tends to be stronger in men in general, is a digestive dysfunction. And what we could. We could think about that is just tension in the digestive or the enteric, you know, to use a technical word, nervous system. So the nerves in your stomach, they're tense or they're inflamed, right? They're. They're kind of wired in a certain sense. And so the first kind of symptoms we see is a stomach ache or constipation or diarrhea or acid regurgit, really common for men in their late 30s and 40s. Right. They're all taking Prilosec or some kind of tracheal codeine to. To combat the inflammation in that upper part of the GI tract. And of course, this can lead to ulcers and Crohn's and colitis and even cancer. And I can flush out that pathological picture. Right. But what's occurring in addition to the stress load which any human being who lives in the world has, is that the digestive system is being taxed. It's under constant strain and duress, and that's being exacerbated because men are not talking about their stress. And men. Men. There's a belief in society that men are not supposed to talk about their stress. Men are not supposed to be wimpy. They're not supposed to be pussies. They're not supposed to show Weakness, right? And this is. I don't need to give examples of this. We all can agree that this is the condition of what it. This is the default condition of being a man is don't be a wimp. So the result of that is men stuff. That voice that says, this is too much. I'm tired. I don't want to go to work. I want to rest. I want to complain about my boss, I want to complain about my wife, or I just want to talk about it. I just want to share that. And what men are taught to do is to not do that because it's a sign of weakness and. And wimpiness. And that one thing of not sharing adds tremendously to that tension in the enteric nervous system. And so then what happens, right? This is an obvious correlation, right? The acid regurgitage gets worse. The phlegm, the congestion in your face and your nose, the chronic sinusitis, the earaches, the red eyes, they all get worse. And right then you're like, I'm now vulnerable to Covid, right? I'm now vulnerable to the flu. I'm now vulnerable to virus and bacterial infections because I'm not eating well, because I'm not resting enough, yes. But ultimately, because I'm not talking about. And getting in touch with the tension in my gut, in my upper GI tract, right? And then if that continues over time, it's going to affect the cardiac system, it's going to affect sleep, it's going to affect. I talked about it affecting the immune system. And it's going to affect the adrenals and the kidneys. So it's going to affect your ability to urinate. It's going to affect. It could create UTIs, it could create sexual dysfunctions, it could lead to low sex drive, low testosterone, and, you know, you just flush that whole scene out. That is the condition of. Of masculinity, physiologically and emotionally. And we could then bring in what happens to fear and what happens to your sense of joy and vitality and how those are linked into specific organ systems. And, you know, eventually, this is the picture you and I describe is your leftist being kind of like a husk of a man who doesn't have his passion, who doesn't have his virility. And the. The driver of that emotionally and psychospiritually is if you're not. If you're not in touch with the stress and the voice inside that says, don't be a pussy, you start to go numb emotionally, you can't. You can't feel. And this is what I see with men in the. In the clinic, and even with. Not so much with men I'm doing shadow work with, because they're already cracked open. They're already in a state of crisis, which means they. They're starting to feel the feeling has cracked through their ability to hold. Hold everything down. So I'm. Have I work with a man? I'm like, well, do you want to look at this from this other perspective? And sometimes I get a blank stare back at me. Or they say, yes, but I can see the dough in the headlights look like there's a way. I mean, we could call this trauma or ptsd, but there's a. If I look in anyone's eyes, but said look in a man's eyes, and I raised this question, and I can see him beginning to sense how deep the pain is. He can't feel it, but he can sense the distance between where he's at in his awareness and where the pain's at. And there's this hollow look in the eyes, and there's a lot of fear. There's a lot of fear. And that has to be addressed carefully and gently for a couple reasons. One is that the body has actually become quite weak. And if we bring up that stuff too quickly, and this is a problem that healers get into and shamans get into and even doing sacred medicine journeys can get into. Whereas if you. If you bring up some of this pain too fast and the body is too weak, you actually weaken the body further and you can fracture the mind because the mind isn't developed enough to hold the pain it's been avoiding. Yeah, and. And that. That actually is deleterious. It's. It's not healthy for. For the man's mind or the body. The body. Mind has to be brought back to health over time. And then when there's enough strength in the system, then you can do some deep shadow work.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I. Man, there's. There's so much there. I'll kind of maybe go starting backwards.

Luke Adler: But fill it in a little bit.

Jason Lange: It's so cool to hear that, because I think that just. That fills out and actually tracks something I've noticed. Having worked with men for a number of years now, and particularly one of the other programs I lead, we've noticed this pattern. I've noticed this pattern I've had to speak to. With men. We're about 40% of the way through the journey. They're in pretty deep, and they've gotten to know the community and they're doing some deep work and we specifically guide them into, know, some kind of older material. But then stuff really starts to come up. Emotions start coming through, crunchiness starts coming through. And in a way, life gets a little worse for a while and it's always very confusing for them because they're like, you know, I've come to youth to feel better and yet like, I'm crying all the time, I'm getting more angry, like all this stuff is happening. And I think, I think what you just gave me was pointing towards what might be happening. There is in a sense, you know, and we talk about this a lot. I think one of the things a program like ours or other programs I do really does is it creates connection for men and it starts to create a ground of safety of, wow, I. There's connection here available to me. I don't have to hold this anymore. Which in a sense I think, you know, starts to resource the nervous system in the body. And as it's, as it feels that resource, then it's like, oh, now we have enough gas in the tank to actually feel and deal with this. So it's going to start to come out now. And I think there's may quite likely a correlate there too. Even just in intimate relationships, like when, in a paradoxical way, when you have enough safety and trust, all the old wounding can come up and start to, you know, like the attachment disorder, like all that's like, okay, we can play ball now because there's, you know, there's some trust and connection here. But that in a sense the, the paradox I think you're pointing to is like the system has to have a certain level of health to be able to deal with disease.

Luke Adler: Yes.

Jason Lange: And when people are chronic, like in trauma states or activated in fight or flight, they don't even have the resource to start to heal. In a sense, it's just like all hands are on deck, we're in threat and nothing works. And that shift, I think, can be kind of shocking and painful for men in a sense. But it's also what, you know, I try to encourage men of like, no, this is actually great. Like the fact that you're crying all the time or you're getting pissed off. More like, to me, that means it's working. Your system's starting to trust that, okay, we can handle this now, we can hold this now, we can process and move this now in a way we probably couldn't before. And I just think that's such a potent realization and you know, feeling for you to have. And like, okay, you know, in where I think skilled facilitation is so important of kind of feeling, you know, right where that edge is. And, you know, I would, you know, point to. I think one of the things we really designed intelligently in the heart of shadow is we don't just go right to the retreat, right. We build up some rapport and connection and safety and trust with men ahead of time. I think that really sets this groundwork for like, oh, yeah, I'm feeling a little better. I don't know, it just feels great to talk about my stuff with guys or have somewhere to show up, you know, on our weekly call. And then when we get into that real work, the system's like really ready. You know, there's, there's times we're doing work with a guy where it's like, you know, as. As great as I think we are, it's like, oh, I didn't really have to do anything there. That guy was just like, hi, how are you doing? And you know, something happens because his body has been so ready to release that or move that or process that for so long. And the digestive stuff you were talking about as well, I just want to know. Super interesting to me because I think it just, you know, I'm like trying to map all this together and it's like, well, it kind of makes sense. Like if there's undigested emotions in you, your body, it's like something being stuck in your gut and all the acids being built. And it's like, I want to digest this. I want to digest this. I want to digest this. And it's putting all this energy to it, but it's not happening in. That has, I imagine, quite a metabolic tax on the nervous system to kind of be constantly right there knowing there's this thing that needs to be processed.

Luke Adler: Yes.

Jason Lange: But it's not. It's stuck. So the system's kind of stuck in this overdrive, in a sense. And I imagine, you know, I can just feel how that can lead to all the autoimmune and inflammation and all these things that really do catch up. You know, I, as you and I talk about, I think particularly for us guys in our, like, 40s, it really starts to rear its head of like, oh, yeah, okay. All that stuff I was dancing around, it's showing up in my body now and it's time to be addressed.

Luke Adler: That's right. And like you're saying we're, you know, you and I are in our mid mid life mid-40s. And for a lot of men in their 20s, maybe even their early 30s, there's enough vitality in their system to where they're not getting that biofeedback a lot. I mean, you'll start to get it in your 20s, but there's still enough core vitality that you can just kind of keep pushing and overriding. Like, this is definitely my story. And what am I pointing to? You're just, you're not in touch with what you're really feeling. You're overriding it. Your, your inner critic is pushing your physiology past what your body is actually asking for. And oftentimes men aren't kind of aware or wanting to do work until they get into their mid-30s or ladder, because their body is the one rebelling, or they can no longer ignore that there's a clear problem. So, you know, ultimately the body is the truthsayer. It's, it's not. It never deceives you. It always has a clear message, and then it's our job to discern that. And unfortunately, in most systems of major medical healthcare, they, they don't have this deeper philosophy. So you won't find this in allopathy. You'll find a degree of it in naturopathy. It's just not rooted in, in any antiquity. So it's, it's a little, it's more recent. Naturopathic medicine is only a couple hundred years old. But when you have, you know, such, such a deep philosophical cultural tradition from the east that's tried and true and, and, you know, moved through the ages of different dynasties and epochs of time, there's a way in which culture has, you know, you know, through observations, saying, oh, yeah, this is related to your liver, this is related to your kidneys. And, and here's why, and here's how it's connected. And even you can draw those correlations into Western science. Here, here's the cellular explanation. You know, here's how it affects mitochondria and here's how it affects DNA. And so it all makes a lot of sense. It's not mysterious. And, you know, sometimes people, wow, how did you know that? You just felt my pulse. And you can tell everything. It's like, well, it's not really me, you know, I'm the beneficiary of 5,000 years of study. So I can't take credit for this. I can take credit for the hard work and study, but this is nothing I've, I've invented. You know, I'm, I'm not, I'M not the genius. I'm just the person who worked really hard to learn it, you know, so, you know, this.

Jason Lange: It's fascinating. I'm just having this, like, maybe epiphany of a sense is another frame on Shadow work is, you know, it helps us digest our lives 100%. Right. That's really, I think, what's happening in our program, in the work you and I have been so deeply exploring with each other. It's like sometimes, you know, sometimes we bite off more than we could chew in life with, like, a huge event or. Or something really painful or old patterns and getting into these intentional spaces that you and I have been part of and now create. It's a place where we get to shift into that digestion of, okay, all this stuff has happened to me, and it's time for me to actually, you know, transmute that and release that and take the gold and, you know, leave the rest and that again, you know, it strikes me about, you know, kind of in the more polyvagal terms of what I imagine links up to your medicine work quite well is it's, you know, it's very hard to heal and rest and digest when you're in fear and flight or, you know, your body is mobilized.

Luke Adler: That's right.

Jason Lange: And so, you know, the connection work, the safety we create in containers like all ours in the retreat, certainly even the touch that gets to come online. You know, this is something I've just been floored by time and time again of. You know, a man might have that look in his eyes of like, oh, there's something here, and I don't know how to get to it and feel so big and scary. And then, you know, a hand on the heart or on his shoulder, and the body just receives that safety cue and says, okay, we can do this now. You're not alone. And that, you know, I think the potency of our program is really creating that safety signal for men that their body can begin to heal like, it's safe now. So you can divert all that energy that's been up in the sympathetic fight, fear. Like, I got to be ready here. Perpetual digestion, as we were kind of talking about to. Okay, let's. Let's downshift and actually begin the process of breaking all this material down into its elements, which are often just very primal core feelings.

Luke Adler: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Of grief or anger or fear or disgusting. That as we feel them, it's like that whole knot starts to unwind, and there's movement again in the system. And, yeah, it's Just, it's just. Yeah, it's so cool. I knew this was gonna be a fun topic to kind of hear about things from your side because I was like, I bet these things are even more related than we realize. And you're kind of at the forefront of that.

Jason Lange: And it strikes me that it, you know, whether it's our program or many of the emerging programs in this style of work, you know, I think it plugs one of the big gaps, whether it's the more traditional Western medical model or even kind of the Eastern model you're in, of they both have their extreme gifts, but they're not really set up to provide community per se. Right. And I imagine part of, you know, part of just the healing magic of, you know, clients coming to see you, whether it's for acupuncture or herbs or something, is also just the safety of someone putting their attention on them that gives a shit, that listens, that is deeply attuned to them and is there and that Starts to, you know, create that ground of, oh, okay, maybe, maybe I can do something different than I've been doing before in that. I think a group, you know, like we have with each other and we help try to inspire men to take forward after our program becomes an even deeper version of that. Okay, here's. Here's the place I can go to digest right. When something big lands in my lap in my life. We've talked about this before. You know, I think there's a struggle for a lot of men is they just don't know what to do with it. Where do I go with this? How do I work with it? Where can I share it? So I'm going to hold it inside and either just batten down the hatches or try to just numb it out or, you know, ejaculate it off, as we often talk about, to just, I gotta get away from this, gotta get away from this. And the community part. Yeah. Just really strikes me that that safety signal to the system is probably almost as important as anything else these days in a sense of just, hey, someone is paying attention to you and someone is here with you in your experience. And then, yeah, there's all kinds of things we can add on and cool things. And, you know, I've seen you working with guys doing acupressure points, and it's super cool, right, because it supports the movement that's happening.

Luke Adler: Right.

Jason Lange: That, at least in our heart of shadow, that. That movement that's starting from that kind of psychospiritual place, and then you bring the body in to support that, and it's like, wow, crazy stuff is happening here. You know, I don't know if accelerate is quite the right word, but deepen. Deepen the process that's already happening by bringing all the systems together, deepening to. To work together in the healing.

Luke Adler: Yeah. One other point I want to highlight there in my own journey is that in my. In my zealousness early on, I wanted to work on the deepest shadowy part with everyone, Right. And that that was coming from a really lovely place and that I just wanted everyone to heal and be free. And it took me, I would say, maybe a decade to realize not everyone's ready for that, but more that. More than that is what we're talking about. Not everyone's body can handle that. So it's. It's. It took me, you know, maybe between year 10 and 15 to start to learn discernment around what this person's ready for when they come into the clinic and to not Push my, my agenda on everyone. And it's why, as my career progressed, I defined shadow work more and made that separate from my Chinese medicine practice. Part of that was to preserve myself because I was burning out from wanting to take everyone, save everyone in a certain sense. And, but, but ultimately I've, I've made it really clear because like we said earlier, people's bodies have to be strong enough to do this work. They have to have a certain readiness, they have to have a certain hunger to want to heal at this level. And the needles and the herbs and even the coaching is super helpful because. Gets them there incrementally. It gets people there incrementally. So part of my message, our message is, you know, shadow work. There's always a degree of it that's occurring. If we're, if we're doing healing work, we're gaining the ballast or we're gaining the material, the substantive strength to begin to face the dysfunction in the body. And so that's a really important skill that I want to highlight that you and I, you and I are very attuned to when we're doing work is we always say we never push someone or we never shame them into going, going to the place that we want them to go. And there's, and this is the reason why we don't do that, because if you hyper masculinize shadow work and you push someone to go somewhere that their body's not ready to go to, that it's damaging. And this is something you and I, this is partly why you and I have a lot of resonance, is that we're both attuned to that. We understand that we've been trained that way, and we understand that from our own personal process, we can only take a man to the degree that, yes, they're ready to go, but more that their awareness can occupy. Their awareness can only occupy to the degree of their physiology, to the degree that their physiology can hold. Now we can push someone past that. We can stretch their awareness way past that. But if we do that, it threatens to collapse the body. And then we've now weakened the body and their awareness can't even hold what they once could. Now they're even at a more detracted place and their development. And so I'm just drawing that contrast because if you're out there, man, and you're, you're pushing yourself really hard with certain healing stuff, I'd say, you know, ease back. You know, slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Right? To use a military term. Right. Slow Is smooth. Smooth is fast. It's so much better to honor what your body can handle. It's way faster. So you. You can't push past this in your healing work. You can't push past what your body can hold and actually grow that. It doesn't work that way. Right. And so the skill of Jason and I is that we know that. We know that. And so we're so good at attuning to like, okay, is the man still with us? Is he here? Like, okay, yeah, he's here. Let's keep going. Oh, we're losing him. He's starting to dissociate in this work. He's. He's getting flooded. Okay, let's back it down. Titrate the work back. Let's just stay in your capacity and let's grow right there. Right. And that's. This is also, you know, one of the things I'm so proud of in Heart of Shadow is that we do that and we train that. We train the group to do that as they graduate from our program.

Jason Lange: Yeah, this is, man, just music to my ears. And I think explains a lot, you know, about some of the shadow, so to speak, of transformative culture.

Luke Adler: Yes.

Jason Lange: And the, the, you know, I think. I think there's. We're starting to see more of a healthy move away from it. But, you know, crazy wisdom and some of the landmark stuff and just some of the real hard pushing that was part of the culture for a long time. And this phenomenon that definitely exists in, and people have experienced of being re. Traumatized by the trauma work. And I think that's what you're pointing to right there is we've tried to go or take that person farther than their system was actually capable of going in that moment. And so it kind of doubles down the pain in that it is this, you know, process of unfolding that we have to honor where the system is at. And it's one of the things that, you know, I've so appreciated about the men we've worked with is, you know, in the containers we have of the acknowledgement that every man's edge looks different. And what might be a micro movement on the outside can be like literally hundreds of years in the making in a man's lineage on the inside. And like, wow, that was a huge movement for you to feel that or notice that or express that. Wow. And that, you know, moving at that pace as well, I think, is what allows us to really build the confidence in that. Okay, yeah, I did that. And I don't feel more Depleted. I feel a little more here, so maybe next time I go a little deeper or it unfolds in a different way. But there is that real honoring, I think, of this system that is so important and really does send that safety signal. What. Where, you know, I think one of the biggest moments of healing that can happen in shadow work and certainly has for me, is when we, as the person in that moment, we're the ones that feel the edge and then take that leap forward of like, oh, yeah, okay, I. I'm going to initiate this next bit of like, really going there. That is, to me, so much more important than powerful that. Than you or I trying to pull someone there or poke them there, because that's. That's this radical kind of responsibility we're taking inside of. No, I'm ready for this, and I'm here, and I trust the men around me to hold me to. To go through this. And it's just so potent and it, you know, it changes men. We've seen it, like, when they come out of that and they're like, you know, or a man, you know, it's. It's time for his attention, and he's like, yeah, here's the thing. I'm going to bring. And I haven't told this to anyone my whole, whole life. And I'm ready to go there right now, guys. I feel it. I feel the groove. I feel the trust. And here we go. And we're like, whoa, amazing. You were just ready to go there. And that was a man honoring, I think, where his nervous system was at. And he might not have been there, you know, two years ago. And that's part of, again, part of what we want to, at least I think, of what we try to bring men into is sometimes the reason you haven't dealt with this in the past is because it wasn't safe for you to. It's not because there's something wrong with you or you weren't doing it right or you're not enough. It's just you really didn't have a safe space for this to resource, for that resource to start to come in your body for you then to handle it. And I think a lot of guys that, you know, are following their intuition and showing up in our program, they're like, yeah, I'm. I'm ready for that. I'm ready to create that space for myself in my life.

Luke Adler: So beautiful, what you just said. I would. I would double down on that. To say it's always the case that a man didn't feel safe because that is the condition of the nervous system. If you're in fight or flight, essentially fear, a fear state you cannot digest. Right. You're running from the tiger. You're not digesting your state. So as soon as safety becomes the condition, that means you're not running from the tiger. That means you start to heal. That means you're starting to connect with yourself, and then you're going to connect with people around you. And that's what you and I are celebrating and. And creating. And I. I love seeing a group coalesce because really, it's our instinct. It's our core instinct to want to have community. Right? It comes back to our. Our core tribal nature. We're stronger together. We have a much better chance for survival when we're together, and we have a much better. We have a chance for actually thriving and to see what happens with Heart of Shadow. And you know what? You and I are committed to creating as a larger community in men's work, where men have the choice at the end of the 10 weeks to continue to support the culture that they've worked really hard to create in two, two and a half months and build that safety over time. And we find sometimes men, they're like, okay, that was a lot. I need a break after 10 weeks. But most of the men, and I mean, you know, 80% of the men in a group say, no. This. I can see the value here. I can start to get and feel, wow, this is really healthy for me. And it's not so much like we're. We do a lot of teaching, but what we're really doing is removing all of the. We're teaching all of the. All of the. All of the unhealthy conditioning We've learned to allow kind of a natural. A natural knowing that we all have, as men about what is healthy.

Jason Lange: We.

Luke Adler: We actually instinctually know it's healthy to communicate. It's healthy to share. It actually comes very natural to us once we take off the conditioning that says, don't do that. That's bad. So our work is really about facilitating or making. Making it easier for. For men to follow what they really want. It's already there. You know, it's. It's. It's a delight for you and I to facilitate that.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Such a gift. And so as I think we bring things to a close here, you know, I just want to note that we are in open enrollment for our next cohort of the Heart of Shadow, which you can learn all [email protected] if you have any questions there, you can email me. You can use the little chat bubble. Either Luke or I are happy to hop on a discovery call with you to, you know, chat things out. If you're curious and just have a little bit of question, we're here for it. So thanks again my friend, and until next time.

Luke Adler: Thanks Jason.

Jason Lange: If you're interested in working with me around dating relationships or your masculine presence in the world, just go to Evolutionary Men Apply.