All right, I was on The Derelict Podcast with Josh, and we went deep on why so many men are walking around emotionally constipated and what that costs us.
We covered a lot of ground. I shared my own journey, growing up with emotional neglect and having no clue how to connect with women or even other men. That isolation followed me into my 20s until I found men's groups and somatic therapy, which completely changed the game for me. I talked about the three failing models most men get handed: the macho jerk, the nice guy, or the stoic grandfather who just stuffs everything down. None of those work.
The conversation moved into what real presence actually is, not the fake confidence bullshit, but the kind of grounded nervous system regulation that makes people want to be around you. We got into how emotions are sensations in the body first, and most men have never been taught what to do with that. So we avoid, we numb out, we push it down. And it accumulates like kindling, waiting to ignite at the worst possible moment.
Josh and I talked about the practice of actually feeling your emotions without collapsing into them or armoring against them. Learning when to posture, when to collapse, and how to do both skillfully. I shared how men need safe containers, usually with other men, to let that emotional charge move through completely. Three to five minutes of really going there can clear decades of buildup.
We also got into breath as the most fundamental practice you can do anywhere, anytime. Your breath is a portal back to the present moment, and it's something every man has access to right now.
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Host: We have a whole society, a whole culture that's. That's against this for men. And one of the things that we're not supposed to do is we're not supposed to show weakness. We're not supposed to show failure. You can get angry. That's an acceptable man emotion. Right? But not something like grief or tears or fear or anything else. You can't do that. You're a man. Be a man. Welcome to the Derelict Podcast for the disparaged, depleted, and delinquent souls trying to find our way. We're talking about the scary part of the journey where we don't know how it'll end. Let's be free to face our failures in real time as the most unadulterated, truest version of who we are. No sugarcoating. Welcome to the shit show, you derelict. Hey there, derelicts. It's Josh. Abandoned NATO with another episode of the Derelict Podcast. And another special guest, Jason Lange, is here with us today. Jason, what's up, man? How are you?
Jason Lange: I'm so stoked to be here, Josh. Thanks for having me, man.
Host: That's awesome. I love that you're stoked to be here. I'm stoked that you're here. It makes two of us. So, Jason, you know, he. He is. Maybe he's. He's who I want to be. I don't know. Well, we'll see after the end of this episode. But he's so. One of the things that you told me, Jason, when we got to know each other, is that you're a man's embodiment coach, which I'm not going to have you answer right now, what that even means, because I have no idea what that means. But I'm. I'm sure that our audience is going to be thinking about that until we get back to it. So stay tuned. A little preface for what's to come later. Embodiment. Think about embodiment. Am I in my body? Okay, got it. And you lead men's group, and you're. You're really passionate about men's groups, right?
Jason Lange: You.
Host: You absolutely think that maybe every man should be in a men's group.
Jason Lange: That's my mission. Get every man into a men's group. I think the world would be a much better place.
Host: Awesome. So we're going to define that later on. We're going to try to figure out what a man's group is. Is that just a couple guys, you know, sitting around watching a football game, or is it people actually having a conversation and being deep and meaningful? We'll see. And you also do individual coaching. And, you know, you obviously have a passion for men. I do, too. I think that's why we connected here. Right? This whole podcast is about vulnerability. It's about dealing with failures. It's about getting into the muck of the stuff that we often don't want to get into, and especially we as do not want to get into, because there are. We have a whole society, a whole cultural.
Jason Lange: That's.
Host: That's against this for men. Right? With our. Our man box, so to speak, is like this. And we're never supposed to leave it. And one of the things that we're not supposed to do is we're not supposed to show weakness. We're not supposed to show failure. We're not supposed to deal with tough stuff. We're just supposed to grin and bear it. Or as my grandpa used to say, you know, pick yourself up by your bootstraps. Start again. Right? That old kind of Western theme of you fall off the horse, you get back on, you don't cry about it, you don't grieve it, you don't think about, like, why did I fall off the horse? And emotions are not acceptable. At least those emotions, you can get angry. That's a. That's an acceptable man emotion. Right. But not something like grief or tears or fear or anything else. You can't do that. You're a man. Be a man.
Jason Lange: Yep, that's right.
Host: Well, this whole episode is not going to be about that. We are going to be talking about masculinity. We're going to talk about what it actually means to be a man, especially in this weird world we live in where man isn't even a thing anymore, apparently. So I'm really stoked that you're here, Jason. I'm really excited to get into these conversations. Thank you for being here.
Jason Lange: I'm in. Let's do it.
Host: So maybe let's just start with this. I'd love to know just a little bit about your story. You know, we don't need to spend an hour on this, but I want to know a little bit about your story, specifically in relation to. Where did this come from? Where did you start getting this, you know, man passion, for lack of a better way of saying it. You know what? Who are you? Why should we listen to you? Like, what brought you to this point?
Jason Lange: Sure. Yeah. I mean, my journey to becoming a, you know, a guide for men and facilitator of men really springs out of my own journey of what I needed as I grew up as a man and discovered, you know, where my strengths and where my many weaknesses and challenges were. And for me, you know, like a lot of men, it goes all the way back. So it starts with my family of origin and when I was growing up in that, you know, I'm a white guy, raised in the Midwest, lower middle class, so my basic security needs were met. I wasn't raised in, like, a volatile or abusive household or anything like that. I, um. But what I did uncover as I got a little older was there was a lot of neglect, particularly emotional neglect. So there was just not a sense of interiority in my family. Like, we all kind of just lived under the same roof. You know, dad did some activities with us when he could, but he was mostly at work seven days a week. And I was kind of just left on my own to my own devices to a large extent. And, you know, like, a lot of kids grow up and it's kind of normal. So you just think it's normal. And then for me, it all really started. I started to notice things when puberty hit and I got into my teenage years, and suddenly there's these extreme drives inside of me and a desire and longing to connect with women, in my case. And what I discovered was I had no idea how to do it. Like, I was deeply uncomfortable. My body would get tight, clam up, I would get sweaty. I'd get very anxious. I had literally had no idea how to talk or relate to women. And around the same time, I started to discover I got pretty lucky in a sense of. I was always more of an introverted kid, but I discovered some kind of fellow nerds, so to speak, in. In. In my high school years, which I'm so grateful for. But I noticed they had a way of connecting with each other that just my nervous system did not move towards, which was like horseplay, just touch, just kind of, you know, wrestling, being connected physically. And those two things started to kind of spring into my awareness. And as I got older, I just, you know, I was perpetually single. I was a virgin till my mid 20s. There was so much pain and loneliness for me. And it all kind of came together in. I got lucky at one point and, you know, knew I needed to change and got exposed to some philosophers and stuff. But long and short of it, I was like 26 when I got exposed to men's groups and somatic therapy simultaneously. And I got into my first rooms with other men, many of whom were deeper than me, more embodied than me, and I viscerally remember sitting in a circle with one of my later mentors who was, you know, in his probably early 60s at the time. And you know, I was, I was, I wasn't a kid anymore. I was in my 20s. And I remember having the felt body experience sitting across from him of, oh my God, that's what I want to be when I grow up.
Host: Oh, wow.
Jason Lange: And it wasn't the I want to have his job. It's his presence is something I long to be able to embody. The way he sat, spoke, led, dead, dealt with conflict, the way I saw him engage with his wife, I was like, whatever that is, that's what I want more of. And that really kind of just accelerated my journey and is one of the big reasons I'm such a proponent of groups in particular because we get to get this transmission from other men that so many of us were lacking as kids. Right, right. Like you, you said it. As I joke, we're kind of given three options as kids. Macho jerk, just sheer bravado. Go for what I want, kind of my way or the highway. Energy, often a lot of volatility in that. And those men tend to, you know, if they're not careful, cause a lot of damage in their relationships and the environment to people around them, sometimes even to themselves. Then there's kind of the, you know, the reaction to that of the nice guy. The, the, oh, well, I don't want to ever make anyone uncomfortable. I'm going to disconnect from my sexuality, from my voice, from my authority, because I just want to play it safe or, you know, it sounds like you literally had this in your life. What I kind of call the stoic grandfather. The I just show up, I do my job. You show up with your family and you don't, you just do not share what's going on inside. You just batten the hatches down. And the truth is all three of those are failing men pretty miserably in different ways. And it catches up to us. And so when I got exposed to men that had something else that were showing me a different way, I was all in. I was just all in. And I kept going and going and going and needed the men's work in particular, along with certain body based therapies to just learn how to be in my body and what I was feeling and how to share that and, and the camaraderie, I would say, you know, the, the myth of the lone wolf, I call it that kind of rugged cowboy. Just always be tough, never show weakness, you know, there's obviously some real pros and a positive to that kind of resiliency. Right. But I think what it misses is the much deeper type of resiliency that comes from being in connection and community, particularly with other men, that, as I like to say, I don't care who you are as a man, there will be a time in your life where your body will fail you and you cannot just push forward. And that's the moment you're going to quickly see, who do I have around me? It's a very unique type of vulnerability that when we have, you know, certain men in our life, as I would argue, we can handle that stuff. When we get knocked down, people are there to help us back up. And I think that's really the power of the group. But to kind of tie this together then.
Host: Let me ask you a question, though, before you move on, because I'm curious. I want to go back to this guy that had this presence. You know, I. I talked on the podcast a little bit ago about men with presence, and one of the examples I gave with a guy that I was talking to was the. The guest on the podcast was he's a big, burly dude, right? Like, dude of a dude, a man of a man. And he's a very soft, you know, huggable bear sort of thing, too. But he's just like. He's a big dude, right? And we were talking because I was saying to him, you know, a lot of times this. This impression of man is this dude who's 65 and 300 pounds and jacked and just like, you know, like the rock or whatever, right? Just some hu. Massive dude. And the conversation we were having was that guy could walk into a room next to a dude who's 5:2 and 100 pounds soaking wet. And the dude who's 5:2 commands more presence.
Jason Lange: Oh, yeah.
Host: And the dude, the 5:2, you notice when he comes in, you feel it. And the dude that's six five just disappears next to that guy. So it's not about body, it's not about physicality. So what I'm curious with this guy that you experience. You. You said some of the things already, just as far as how he interacts with his wife, et cetera. But what was it about his presence that you felt? Could you define that anymore? I'm curious.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I mean, one of the. I would say one of the clearest indicators of this that I've experienced in myself is a man with deep presence. His nervous system will actually relax. The nervous system of Everyone around him, there's a sense of, I don't, I just. Being in this space feels more spacious. Right. Being in this man's present, it doesn't wind me up, doesn't make me uncomfortable, it doesn't make me want to run away, doesn't make me want to fight him. There's just this sense of, wow, I feel more here just by being around this person. To me, that's the real power of presence. And that, yeah, I do a lot of work to cultivate in myself and with other men that, you're right, it has nothing to do with our bodies. And it's one of, you know, I help a lot of guys with dating and relationships and it's one of the other big myths that guys fall through that I gotta have a lot of money, I gotta be a certain height, I can't be balding, I have to have rock six pack abs. And it's all honestly bullshit. If, if you are healthy, meaning you feel good in your body, whatever your body looks like, it doesn't matter if you can cultivate this deeper presence. And he had that. So in his presence, I relaxed. I was more here, was more in my body, I was more in the moment. And that is a highly valuable thing. I would actually say it's the greatest currency we can cultivate as men that people will literally pay us for. They will pay us for our presence and they will pay to be around us. They will pay to have us on their teams. Because if the choice is, well, do I want to be around someone that dysregulates me or someone that co regulates me, most people are going to go right towards the person that co regulates them.
Jason Lange: Practice. It's. It. It takes actual practice and discipline in a sense. Again, it can be accelerated, I think, by plunging into these spaces with other men who in particular will give you feedback around if they feel you drifting or they feel you not present. It's one of the great gifts we can give each other as mental is to really pull each other deeper in to our felt body experience in the moment right here and now. And as you know, a lot of men, there's so for all kinds of those cultural man box reasons you talked about, there's so much programming and habit that wants us to shoot up here, kind of boom, pop out into worrying about things, thinking about things, talking about literal things. And I see this in groups all the time. I take men deep, and then they'll want to pop out because it's uncomfortable. For some men, it takes actual stamina to learn to cultivate a deeper presence of, I'm going to stay connected to this moment, to my breath, to my body right now. And, you know, there's all kinds of practices to do that, but in essence, you know, the history of most masculine practice is doing uncomfortable things and learning to stay present in them. Right. Meditation. What is it about? It's about just, can I keep coming back to this moment? To this moment? Kind of the. The most masculine practice there is in a lot of ways. So many martial arts. Can I just keep coming back to actually connecting to and feeling this moment in my body? A lot of indigenous cultures, right, Rites of passage for men, they'll, like, cover a man and ants. What's the purpose of that? Can I stay present even when my body's freaking out, right? Can I stay present? Can I just stay here? And so there's countless ways to train it, both in ourselves and then in community, but it does like, it's an actual thing you have to do, and you don't just do it once. It's not like, oh, yeah, I went on my yoga retreat and I'm good now. It's no, this has to be a part of life that we keep coming back to over and over and over again. And so many men, including myself in my 20s, were. I was resistant to that, or I didn't know how to do it because I wasn't taught. And then I didn't want to be in my body because in being in the present in my body was deeply uncomfortable. It was full of tension and anxiety and fear. And so many of the different pieces of emotions which in the work I do. Josh. Like, emotions always start as sensations in our bodies. So as we're taught to be out of our bodies as men, we're simultaneously taught to be out of our emotional experience. And then we start to get older, stuff happens to us. It's uncomfortable, it's unpleasant. Emotions start to come up. Most men have never been trained what to do with that. How do I identify what I'm feeling in my body? And Then what do I do with it? And because we don't know what to do with it, we turn towards, well then I got to get away from it. So I'm going to drink it away, smoke it away, watch tv, eat it away it off. Like you name it.
Host: Yeah, sex, pornography, shopping. We adjust workaholism.
Jason Lange: Exactly. Totally. There's so it's, it's, it's, there's endless ways that we, we try to get away from our experience as men. And I'm not here to blame them for that because most men are just not equipped. We're not taught, we're not shown that there's another way. And again, it was one of the things that really transformed me when I was in a group and I saw men completely engaging with, let's say, their anger and allowing it to move through their body. But simultaneously I never once felt threatened or that they were unsafe. I was like, oh wait, you mean anger doesn't have to mean destruction and aggression. Rewire the head. Or a man who just lets himself go into grief, like totally go into grief. And in the process of doing that, I find myself trusting and feeling even more connected to him of like wait, actually that wasn't weak, like holy. You know, many men I work with now will come, come and they're like, I wish I could cry. Like I wish I could cry. I just can't get myself to do it again. Just haven't been taught or been given the right environment. But as we have modeled for us that it's possible to stay grounded and present as a man and experience our full emotional selves, something else lights up where what really happens is then we don't fear the moment or an experience and we don't contract or don't resist it. So we're just much more with life. And that translates to an even deeper version of that presence that is just, it's infectious, it's magnetic. When it, absolutely when I'm around it, I'm just like, yeah, like I want to be around you, this person, this energy, I want more of it. And then as we cultivate it as men, you know, that radiates out to our families, to our friends, to our communities, to our workplace as like a profound gift. And it takes practice. So it takes actual training of our nervous system over time to do this. And it doesn't happen in just, you know, a day. There's a lot of tools you can learn in a weekend workshop, but, but then just like any long term practice, you gotta keep with it over and over and over again. And, you know, I've been at this almost two decades now, and I'm still. Still all the time popping out or losing presence or numbing out like it's just part of the game. But overall, do I feel way more present in my life now? You bet.
Host: I. I also love that you said that, because there isn't any shame in that happening. And I'll be the first to admit on a. On a vulnerability failure podcast where I'm trying to get men to be open if. If I were to sit here and say, oh, yeah, I'm totally present all the time. It's fucking bl. I'm not. This happens to me all the time. It's something that I struggle with daily. And just like any other habit or discipline, like you said, you have to work on it daily. And if you don't work on it daily, that's fine. Don't shame yourself over that. But I'm much better than I used to be a year ago and much better than five years ago, much better than 10 years ago. And that's progress. And that's all I care about. Progress, not perfection. So that's so good. You said something else that triggered a thought in me that I thought was so good and profound of you. And I was thinking about the men, that there's not a lot of things that I value respect or look up to more than a man who feels his emotions, is present with those emotions, works through those emotions, but does not allow those emotions to take control of him. That it's. It's the. It's the dichotomy between the man who just never has an emotion or never shows an emotion, or never experiences an emotion, never, never actually deals, never is present with their emotion. Right, on this one side versus the person that's just a bumbling idiot all the time. Because they just let emotions take over. They just let emotions rule the day. They let emotions be who they are when it's not who they are, but that's who they let. Right? And it seems like, like you were saying at the very beginning of the episode, we only have a couple choices, like, which one are we going to be, right? Are we going to be this guy over here that just lets emotions take over the day? And by the way, in our society, too, those can be different emotions. Now, it could be. It could be more like feminine emotions, like, they're always sad and they're always grieving, they're always dramatic and all this sort of stuff, or it could be more masculine Emotions, like they're always an angry asshole, right?
Jason Lange: Totally.
Host: And I don't know, unless I am completely insecure and having a hard time with myself, I don't. Neither one of those are appealing to me. Like, I don't see those guys and look at them and be like, yeah, that's what I want. That's what I want. I just want to be a total douchebag all the time. Just with anger. That. That's so appealing. Or yeah, I just want to be a complete wreck that no one can ever count on and that women and children would never look up to. And I lose the respect of all my fellow man. Yeah, that's who I really want to be. I mean, I don't think as men we really want either one of that, do we? But we, but we allow it.
Jason Lange: Not at all.
Host: Your point?
Host: Yeah, right, Absolutely, brother.
Jason Lange: Because you're having to contain something around yourself. Oh, I can't say that, or I get angry or that grief, I gotta like lock that down. And then we're not fully in the moment because part of us is still trying to deal with this stuff in the past. And as we learn to just take that on fearlessly and just turn towards these things in a contained way. So, you know, that is important in a trusted container with men, we get to liberate all of that and create so much. It's, it's actual space I see in guys, particularly when I work with them in person. Right. Something they've been holding sometimes for decades, decades, three to five minutes later, they've embodied this energy. So they've actually let it move their body. Their face softens, their eyes soften, their breath deepens, blood comes back to the surface. They're breathing, speaking more deeply. And it's like a whole new human being is suddenly there who's not racked with tension and holding like so many of us guys are.
Host: That's, that's amazing. Thank you for that. There are so many good things that you shared and I just want to come back to a couple of them. And you know, I think, I think we should take this a little further too. For the listeners and viewers, especially the men that are here right now and specifically for the women who have a man that you love. One of the saddest things to me right now is the fact that the highest rate for suicide for a while has been 35 to 50 year old men. Middle aged men. Middle aged men that are just at the prime of living their purpose instead of living their boyish fantasies. Right. I mean, that's usually when it happens. Guys go through midlife crisis and do one of two things. They either dig into their own ego and buy, you know, Porsches and fancy clothes and fancy rings and fancy wives and younger wives and all this sort of stuff.
Jason Lange: Right.
Host: Or, or they dig into really becoming missional and purposeful.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: And it's sad to me that that's when most, a lot of guys, or at least the, the biggest proportion of the population, decides just to end it because it's not worth it. Because whatever they've been chasing for so long is just done. And you know, even with all our medical advancements, you know, I'll tell another story. I have a friend and her ex husband actually knew years ago. I haven't spoken with him or had contact with him for years. But you know, I knew him years ago and I, I just heard from her a couple weeks ago that he died from a heart attack and asleep at 43.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: And with the work that you do and the work that I do and then talking to several of his friends and everything else, he wasn't seeing a doctor for any heart issues. There weren't any medical things that came up. He had some other medical stuff going on, but nothing serious. I mean, nothing more serious than any other 43 year old man has going on. Right. Like, it's just you start feeling stuff in your body in your 40s, you just do. At least I have and everyone else I know does. So he didn't have anything serious going on as far as the doctor is concerned. So everyone was surprised. And the sad thing about it is the moment I heard it, I wasn't surprised because years ago, at least when I knew him, and again, I haven't known him for years, so I can't speak to his current state. But years ago when I knew him, I remembered him as a good guy that worked hard, that loved his family, etc. But I also remembered him as somebody that always seemed like there was so much stuck in his body that he was just miserable. He wasn't miserable to other people. He just was stiff all the time. It just always seemed like he was on the verge of a nervous breakdown or a mental collapse or a panic attack or whatever. He just always felt it. Just always. You, you talked about that guy with the presence earlier. I had the opposite presence with him. We actually worked in the same office for a while and every time he walked by I was like, oh, it just. Every single time, every single time I did that, if you're listening and not watching, what I'm doing is I'm, I'm straightening my body and I'm feeling tense because that's how I always felt when I was around him. And it was really sad for me when I found out that he passed away. Obviously his ex wife is, is a dear friend of mine and I love her very much and I feel so bad for her and her three kids now. I mean, I just, I can't even imagine being just a couple years younger than that myself. But the thing that I thought was most interesting about that whole story is the fact that I wasn't surprised.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: Like it didn't shock me. I was like, yeah, that makes sense. Extremely sad, but makes sense, you know.
Jason Lange: And your nervous system, right, was feeling that tension. Yeah, that's right. Like you said, it's the opposite of presence. Certain nervous systems create more space when we're around them. But particularly as we start to do more and more work and get more present, we can. We can feel contraction, intention in others. Right. You can feel. Because it actually starts to resonate in your nervous system of like, oh, yeah, when I'm around him, like, I feel on guard. I feel tense in. I think this is a, you know, an intuitive thing. A lot more of us have access to that. Again, we're just not taught, like, what does that even mean? And you had a visceral experience of that. Yeah.
Host: There's one other thing that I would just want to re mention that I thought that you. You made a really good analogy to earlier that I really liked. And you were talking about waves of emotions and where my head went. When you were talking about these waves of emotions, it went automatically to the ocean. And if anyone's ever been in the ocean and you're standing in. Let's say you're standing in shallow water and waves are hitting you, you know that there are some waves that just go through you. There's some waves that knock you over. But it all. If you're sitting in. If you're. Sorry. If you're standing in shallow water, as long as, you know there's not a tsunami or something. If you're standing in shallow water and you're just a normal human being, the waves just. They crash into you and they keep going. They don't knock you over because you're in shallow water. They're not that big of a deal. And I'm not a surfer, but I have experienced, like, some bodyboarding, and I've tried surfing before, et cetera. And one of the things that you learn when you do that, at least I learned, was when a wave takes you under, sometimes you just have to go limp and just wait for it to be over. Because sometimes the more you fight it, the more difficult it becomes. And then the more you fight it, the more likelihood things like you drowning happen because you're actually fighting the wave so hard that the wave becomes more powerful and puts you even further down into the water. And that just is such a beautiful analogy to me from my own life and my own experience about when I have fought the wave, and I'm like, no, I'm not gonna feel fear right now. I'm not gonna feel anger. I'm not gonna feel grief. I'm not gonna feel sadness. I'm a man, right? I'm gonna. I'm gonna pick myself up by my bootstraps. I'm gonna figure this out. We're all gonna make it happen. Still guilty to this day of doing that sometimes. Yep. And then again, the other approach is you just let the wave carry you wherever it carries you, and then you never do anything, and then you drowned. That's also not a good approach. Right. And those are the times where I go through a difficult or traumatic process, and I'm grieving, and then I'm sad, and then I just let that sadness control me. And now all of a sudden, I'm a sad person. You know, it's like somebody saying that they're depressed. Well, if you say you're depressed, you're labeling yourself as depressed. So your mind believes that that's now your identity. And while I might get depressive thoughts or feelings every once in a while, I'm not depressed because I'm not going to allow that depression to take over me. But doesn't mean I haven't. Right?
Jason Lange: Totally.
Host: And, you know, I love the fact that you're talking about these men's groups and being open in these men's groups, but what I also loved you talking about is just staying present in every moment. I saw this.
Jason Lange: This.
Host: Honestly, it was. It was difficult. I'll be honest. I saw this video about Eckhart Tolle the other day on social media, and it was difficult for me to stay present. Watching the video about him being present, sure, totally. But what he was talking about, because, of course, there's a million other things, and I want to scroll to the next video and I want to move, you know. But the thing he was talking about, I thought was really beautiful. He's like. He basically was saying, it doesn't have to be this huge deal. Just try to stay present in your steps from the couch to the kitchen. And that's what he was talking about. He's like, when people are talking about enjoying the journey, it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be this quest of a journey. It could just be the journey across the room. Am I actually enjoying this moment? What am I learning from walking from the couch to the kitchen? What am I learning from, you know, whatever it is. And you were mentioning earlier, with things like martial arts and other things. You're absolutely right. We could. I'm trying my best right now in my life, so this is really good timing. It just really speaks to me because I'm trying in my life right now with everything I'm doing. I'm trying to figure out, how can I be more present in this moment? Doesn't matter if I'm chopping firewood. Doesn't matter if I'm walking up a hill. Doesn't matter if I'm cooking dinner. Doesn't matter if I'm talking to you or one of my kids or anybody else. How can I be more present in this moment? Because my mind so often wants to just escape to anything again. It doesn't have to be technology or even social media. It can be anything. It doesn't matter.
Jason Lange: That's the practice.
Host: Yeah, right.
Jason Lange: The. The beauty in the end is everything is the practice.
Host: So besides men's groups, and I want to get to that a little bit more here again in a second. What are some. What would you say are some practical tips specifically for men to get more in their body, to feel more of this embodiment that you're talking about and to feel more present. Like what? When. When you say it's practice, that's helpful, but not helpful. You know what I mean? Like what. What is the practice? Are there any practical tips that you can give people?
Host: Right? Yeah. There's several things about that that you thought that I found really fascina. And also for the, you know, three minutes ago, or whatever it was that you said that I immediately thought of how I was breathing and I realized it was a little shallow. And the moment you start Talking about that, I was like, okay, why is it shallow? Like, let's get it down here more. And I started doing that. And I mean, it was just. It was just. It was just the awareness. Right, exactly. Automatically had me do that. But, man, I think probably the most fascinating thing you just said was what you just said. And that is whoever has the deeper path, deeper breath, excuse me, has the masculine pull. And for a podcast and a guy that's very in tune and passionate about men becoming more of their masculine selves, I think that's really fascinating because a lot of the times when I get in trouble as a man, it's when I allow anger to take me over, fear to take me over, anxiety to take me over, and just to use those three emotions, even though we could use a lot more. Every single one of those emotions has shortness of breath. Every single one.
Jason Lange: Yep. Boom.
Host: You can't be. You can't let anger or anxiety take you over and be in a deep breathing state. It's impossible. I've tried it. It doesn't. It doesn't work. So I completely agree with you. And it also actually just made me think of an interaction I had with a business partner the other day where for whatever reason, it wasn't even the topic, but for whatever reason, politics started coming up. And I found, you know, both of us started kind of going like this a little bit. And I. I actually physically did. Was aware of what was happening in my breath. I was like, why am I so, you know, like all of a sudden.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: And. Yeah, that's really, really deep and meaningful. Thank you for that. Because when you get to that point, if. If there's awareness, it's like, okay, if I just slow down, even right there, I feel better.
Jason Lange: Exactly. Because what you just did was you brought consciousness to the moment, and that is presence, consciousness, our awareness. So breath is. It's one of the most powerful embodied practices we can do. It's so simple, right? It's so simple. And we can do it any time of day. You don't have to, like, go do, you know, an hour meditation, necessarily. You can be in your life and as you build this body awareness to just constantly keep checking in. Yeah. How am I breathing? What's going on with my breath right now? Because that is sending all kinds of signals to my nervous system and the world around me about the state I'm in. And it, in fact, impact. In fact, like you. You saw, it impacts the state of other people too. So it is profound leadership to cultivate a breath Awareness, really, in any given moment.
Host: So let's. Let's come back to men groups. Right. And. And I want you to, if you could, further define what that actually means. Like, what. What does that even look like?
Jason Lange: Sure.
Host: Especially as a man with a podcast and a business that's trying to grow a tribe right now. You know, I. I have things like there's a private Facebook group where people can come on and try to do that, but obviously it's different when it's on social media versus when it's in person. And this is definitely something that's coming in my future as well, is having these man groups as well. So I want to talk to you more about that offline also. But for everyone that's listening. What. What is. First of all, what is it? What. What does this look like? What. What. What are people actually doing there? And then how did men find these?
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. The. The thing about a men's group that, that I'll start with is it's kind of like the word meditation, where you're like, hey, do you meditate? And you can be like, yeah. And then it's like, well, what kind. You know, there's.
Host: What does that mean?
Jason Lange: Variety in practices of meditation. And men's group is kind of a big category like that. But how. I, you know, the. The way I can kind of paint a picture is it's a group of men who get together intentionally to help each other become more present in the moment and in their lives. Basically. It. And there's all kinds of strategies and techniques and structures you can then use to facilitate that. You know, some groups are more focused on accountabilities and getting goals done. Some are more focused on emotional support and connection. Some are more focused on, like, actual. Yeah. Cultivating practice. We're going to get together and we're going to do breath work, or we're going to do qigong, or we're going to do something that really keeps us in, you know, the. The moment, so to speak. And a good group is going to kind of blend all of the above. But the. The main thing is you're showing up with intention, with agreements, and with an orientation to what's the most important in my life. So it. Men, by ourselves, in my experience, will just naturally gravitate, like I said, up into talking about things out there. So a lot of men in our culture relate via triangulation. Me and you have our attention on a third thing. Sporting game, a hunt, fishing, a movie, women, whatever. Right. And so we build connection with each other. By having our attention on this third thing, what men's group really does is it turns the attention towards each other. Hey, what is it like to be you in your life right now? Where are you in pain? Where are you ejecting? Where are you crushing it? What's in the way? Where are you feeling tension? And a good group surfaces that and then actually can help slow each other down to become present to it. So, you know, great masculine leadership inside of all of us can actually guide people in, to presence. What's happening in your body as you say that, or, you know, what are you noticing or what's happening inside you? And then as you know, okay, that's the story. And like, what are you feeling? Right. And so I sometimes kind of call men's groups a good men's group too. It's like matrix time or bullet time in the Matrix. Like, really slows us down so we can become aware of our inner world and get clearer about what we're feeling, what we're needing and what we're wanting. And so a good group, you know, you'll hear this term in men's work, right? It could. We can help sharpen each other up, which just means get clarity for each other. I feel like I should do this thing, but I'm scared or I'm stuck here. I don't know how to do this. And men holding presence with us, on us, guiding us deeper into our experience is going to help us solidify. Oh, yeah, I'm afraid. I'm afraid to talk to my wife about this or I'm really pissed at my dad for X. And that's the kind of thing we might know. But it's a whole different experience when we actually connect to it. And then we get to come out of the group with much more clarity about what we need to bring forward in our lives and how we're going to do that. So, you know, it's about this intentionality of connection. It's about slowing down. It's about presence. And the best groups that I'm in and that I've been part of. There's also a continuity over time. Right. So I do a lot of work where, yeah, I know it's a weekend retreat or something like that, and it can be profound. But the place I've really changed and I've seen men transform the most is when there's the continuity of a group that is holding them and their vision over time and can start to reflect, you know, sometimes hard truths about. Yeah, you know, you've been Coming in here for eight months saying you hate your job and you haven't done anything about it. So do you really hate your job or do you just want to complain? You know, like, it's not always that, you know, but. But there's a sense of, like, hey, like, this isn't shifting for you, and it's causing you pain, and I care about you, so how can we work on this? What needs to move here? What needs to shift? Let's. Let's figure it out. You know, let's figure it out together. Is the. As I say, the. The kind of the. The sweetest, masculine, fatherly energy there is that so many of us were lacking was just, well, let's figure it out together. Oh, that didn't work. Okay. Let's figure it out together. Are you scared to do that? It's okay. Let's put together a plan. Let's figure it out together. There's this sense of, yeah, you can fail, you can not know how to do it. You can be scared, and I'm gonna be here with you, and we're gonna keep figuring it out. And, man, in my life, as I've continued to cultivate men who have me, in that sense, it's like, it's better than being invulnerable. It's being able to be vulnerable because I can just go into things, and if they don't work out, I got a net, a net of men behind me. That'd be my first cut on kind of the energy of what a group might be.
Host: That's fantastic. I had this experience a little bit ago where there is this group and that I used to be part of, and there. One of the men in the group, I just, you know, always appreciated and respected things that he said. And it's a group where, you know, we would just share different things, struggles, etc, that we were going through. And I was part of it for quite a while with him and then left it because my schedule just didn't work. And then a few months ago, I went back to it, and he was still there. And we actually had. You know, we were sitting around eating some food, and he was talking about. It's funny that you bring up the work thing, and this is what triggered my memory. And he was talking about just all the difficulties at work and the fact that he's trying to exit out of it, and he owns this company, and he just can't seem to get out. And. And, you know, he's. He dropped a day here or there, et cetera, et Cetera, et cetera, right? And. And I just looked at him and I was like, yeah, I remember you talking about that a year ago. And that's all I said. I was like, sounds like it's pretty much the same. I think that's all I said. I think I was like, yeah, it sounds like I remember you talking about that a year ago. Sounds like that's about the same. And he just looked at me, and at first it looked like defensiveness, and, like, he was offended that I was calling him out here. I didn't say anything rude, but I called him out, right? And then he's like. He's like, oh, Josh, that's. It's just what you do, isn't it? He's like, yeah. And then. And then it slowly started turning, and he's like. He's like, you're right. He's like, I'm. I'm pretty much in the same spot I was in before. He was like, what? Thanks for calling me out on that. Right? And it just. It just slowly, like, washed over him. And he was mature enough to just let it wash over him. And then all of a sudden, we're having a really good conversation, and then I start saying things like you were saying, like, I'm not trying to be mean here. I love you and care about you, but it seems like this is still a problem and nothing's changed, so what are you going to do? You know? And we just. It just opened that conversation. And I've just found in my life that before anyone thinks that I'm patting myself in the back, there are far more times in my life I have not said that than when I've said it. And what I'm found finding with the journey that I've been on and the older that I get, honestly, is that it never does anybody any good if I don't say anything. Never doesn't do me any good because I don't experience a moment of love or joy or connection or courage. It doesn't do them any good because they're still stuck in whatever negative mindsets, patterns, limiting beliefs, whatever that they're already stuck in. It doesn't help them. It doesn't help me. The only thing it does, and the reason I convince myself not to do it is because it's scary. And I think I'm gonna offend somebody or I'm gonna upset somebody, or I'm being a jerk, which is weird, because it's the opposite. I'm being a jerk if I don't say anything.
Jason Lange: Totally.
Host: Right. And not everybody's gonna have the same response he did. And I get that, too. Some people might just, you know, get. He could have just gotten mad, thrown his food everywhere, and left the table. That's fine if that's where he's at. Right. I mean, that happens. I've been there before. I get it. But, man, I couldn't connect more with what you're saying, Jason, about just that intimate connection, especially with another man. There's nothing wrong with our wives, our spouses, our women friends, whoever. They're all great, and we have different connections with them. But there's something unique and particular that I have found looking into another man's eyes, being completely present with him and talking about what I'm going through and getting wisdom and guidance and accountability and everything from him.
Jason Lange: Yep.
Host: Irregardless of race, religion, sexual orientation. I don't give a. About any of that if it's a man. And our masculine energies are connecting. There's just something that is special about that that I've never found anybody anywhere else.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I think it's related to, you know, like, what I kind of call the unique texture and flavor of masculine love, which is this really unique thing. Right. That's. I don't need anything from you, but I want you to be free. Whatever your freedom you're yearning for is, I'm a champion for it. And when I see you not free, I'm going to point it out to you because I care about you. You know, it's like the spinach in the teeth thing that I think a lot of men do not have this. Some are afraid of it, but most, I have found deep down are craving 100. Another man who loves them so much, he won't let them get away with their. Just like, yeah, man, I see. Here's a place where I see you struggling to be free. And it hurts because it hurts to see you hurting. And I want you to be free to.
Host: To go back. Yeah. To go back to this example. And again, I'm not patting myself on the back here, but what. What I. What I also realized in that moment is that I've been away from this group for months and months and months and months, and no one else has said that to him.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: So how many opportunities did somebody have to say the exact same thing I said? Which, yeah, took a little bit of courage, and it was a little uncomfortable. But how many. How many. How many times have I done that? How many times has there been a man in front of me talking about what they're going through, and I've just taken the easy way out. And I'm like, it's not my problem. Yeah. It's not my issue. Hopefully he'll figure it out. We all have to figure out things ourselves one day, you know, all that that's inside my head, that I believe. Oh, that's powerful stuff, Jason. Thank you.
Jason Lange: Yeah, it's a great. It's. It's the great gift. Yeah. You know, we can offer each other, I think, as men and a men's groups are particularly well suited place for it because you get to build up that rapport and trust. Right. If you just met some ranger stranger on the street and we're giving that, you know, they might not be open to it because they're like, you don't know who I am. But this guy, right, you had built rapport and trust with him. So when you came forward, he's like, oh, this is someone who I want to listen to. Right. This is a man whose feedback means something to me because he. He knows who I am and what I stand for and frankly, probably what I'm possible. What's possible for me. Right. What I'm capable of. And that's, you know, we're each other's champions as men, as I like to say. It's, you know, it's about calling each other forward of like, man, yeah, I've. I've been with you. I've seen your greatness. I felt your greatness. And when it's not here, it hurts me and it hurts the people around us, and I see it hurting you. So I'm going to let you know, you know, hey, what you're doing right now doesn't really seem like you're, you know, you're in your full expression of self, your full spectrum. And, yeah, there's always a little sting. I still get defensive. And then in the end, man, I am grateful for it because my life has changed more from those pieces of feedback than anything else.
Host: Absolutely. For sure. So, of course, if you're a man watching this and you're looking for a man's group, reach out to Jason. His information is in the show notes. Reach out to me. My information's in the show notes. We both have men's groups that we can do online, et cetera. But I. I guess my. My final question. What about the man that wants something in person, Jason, and they don't happen to live in either of our areas. How. How do they do that? Because I know a lot of men listening to this are like, yeah, that sounds amazing, but I don't want to go start one. I don't want to be the leader. I don't, you know, like, I want to find. How. How do you even find something like this if they. If they want to do something in person? Yeah. Host: Love that.
Jason Lange: All the. The guidebook you kind of need. Because as much as I love leading groups, I, you know, I'll kind of end here with. I'm a big proponent of decentralized groups, that something really special happens when men take full ownership of their own group. Meaning I'm not paying someone else for it. It's not part of an organization. This is ours. No one is telling us to be here, but we are here. You know, I just moved back from California to Colorado and got to rejoin my first men's group that I was in, in my 20s. They've been meeting every other Wednesday for 14 years.
Host: Wow.
Jason Lange: Not same exact guys. And I just got to slot right back in. And their commitment does not come from the outside.
Host: Right.
Jason Lange: Their commitment to each other comes from the inside. And just what I found so potent about that in, in the groups I've been part of like that is there's a level of ownership then of if we're not getting something out of this experience, it's nobody's fault. It's our fault.
Host: Absolutely.
Jason Lange: We got to bring it, which means I have to bring it. Where am I not fully bringing myself forward or holding back or whatever that might be? So I'm a big fan of decentralized groups. And if you're totally new to the work. Yeah. Go to a retreat. Go to. Go to one of Josh's groups. Come to one of my groups, like, get a taste for what it can be like. You know what that. That masculine transmission is which will often know kind of onboard guys to. Yeah, I want more of this.
Host: Love that. Thank you so much, Jason. So, so many good things to say. I. I know people got a lot out of it. I really appreciate. I appreciate also, just most importantly, I appreciate you bringing your presence. I appreciate you just bringing yourself today. Felt very present in the conversation and I appreciate that. Thank you.
Jason Lange: Yeah, such a joy, man. Love what you're up to and so glad to be here.
Host: Thanks, man. So again, if you're listening, if you like the episode, please like it. We'd love to hear comments. Love to hear comments. Add some comments on. If you're watching this on YouTube, add some comments down there, add some comments on Spotify, wherever, wherever you're listening, watching, etc, because we'd love to just have a conversation about what you think about this sort of thing. Have you experienced men's groups? Is there something that you'd like to share with the world? Unless we hear from you, we don't. We don't know how to share it. So please share it with us. If you are a man that is listening to this, that's thinking, wow, a men's group sounds really interesting. Here's the first thing you could do. Call another man or send them this podcast episode, right? Send them this episode and say, hey, what do you think about this? Should we start one of these right? See if they'll listen to it, Spend an hour of their time. They're going to get something out of it. And then you guys go start a group. Reach out to me, reach out to Jason if you need some advice. It sounds like Jason's coming out with that, that guide here soon. Once we get it, we'll add it to the show notes as well. And, and yeah, appreciate you all. And until next time, thanks for joining the Derelict podcast. Talk to you soon.
