What Happens When Men Stop Doing Life Alone with Jason Lange | Why, Dad?

Host (Why, Dad?): Welcome to the Wide dad podcast. We are your hosts, Paul Wandre and Andrew Stoepelstedt, and we are on a mission to figure out what it means to be a man, a husband and a father, and why it matters. And we're trying to figure out how to do that today. To help us along that mission, we've got someone who's doing deep, powerful work helping men show up in a world in a more honest, grounded, and connected way. Jason Lange is a men's embodiment coach, group facilitator, trained with some of the biggest voices in modern men's work.

Jason Lange: And

Host (Why, Dad?): he's on a mission to help men wake up to their purpose, lead with integrity, and build lives filled with real connection. And at the core of it all, he believes every man should be in a man's group. So, Jason, super excited to have you on the show today to dig a little bit into your mission and welcome to the show.

Jason Lange: Yeah, thanks so much for having me, guys. I'm super pumped to be here. Oh, yeah, it's going to be a good. It's going to be good. This fits. Having you on fits with, with a lot, a big goal and a big purpose of the. That Paul and I have been trying to chase down. So I'm really excited to get your thoughts and hear your story and where we, as the Wide dad, can go with a men's group. And also, just how do we encourage other guys out there to follow your goal, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's become more and more my passion these days in that I work with men in a lot of ways. You know, retreats, private work. But the thing I've seen move the needle, so to speak, the most on my own growth, transformation, wellness, and the, you know, hundreds of men I've worked with at this point is being part of a group in a way that no one off experience can ever quite replicate. As much as, you know, you can have these powerful, amazing experiences at retreats or weekends, it's the consistency of a group that allows the deepest transformation I've seen. Wow. Okay.

Host (Why, Dad?): Wow.

Jason Lange: That's why before we get into your story, like, why, just why is that, you know, like, what have you seen that makes that so? Yeah, I think it's a couple of different things, right. In that, you know, how we often talk about this in the space is a good men's group brings two things to a man's life, brings support and accountability. So support, meaning there's all. We all have moments where we get knocked off center, where we collapse, where it's too much. Where we're stressed out, where, in a way. And this is activating for some men where sometimes we need to be held even as the fathers, right? We need a space where we can go to where we're not holding it for everyone else. And a men's group in particular is a great space where guys can hold it for us. So many of us guys write for all kinds of reasons we can get into. We walk around with all the burdens of the world on our shoulders, particularly as dads, right? Trying to raise kids. I'm trying to have a healthy relationship. I got my work, I often got my own family, my parents, and it's all falling on me. You can just feel the weight it puts on guys and the burden we take on. And then we marry that with what we're taught in our culture that, you know, obviously this isn't what I believe, but this is what a lot of us internalize, that real men do everything alone, right? It's the Marlboro man. It's the cowboy out on the range. Doesn't need anybody. Tough as nails, picks himself up by his bootstraps, and it doesn't work. That's just the reality I see. And, you know, guys will sometimes push back against that. And I have guys who actually champion that. Oh, I don't need anybody. I don't need. I don't need anybody. And it's like a point of pride and, you know, self being able to advocate for yourself. Yes, that's great. Totally. We want that. But the. Where I really come back at, guys, is I say, you know, no matter how tough you think you are, every man, every human, but every man in particular, because that's what we're talking about here. There will be a time in your life where your body fails you, whether it's illness, accident, old age, and you will not be able to just push through. It's coming for us all. And at that moment, what matters is who do I have around me to support me? A lot of guys, they don't have that system set up when something catastrophic happens. And then they have the double challenge of the thing that happened and trying to figure out how to get support at the same time. So I say one of the best investments you can make in your relationship, in your kids, in your life right now, is to start cultivating these healthy relationships with other men. Don't wait. And then the other big thing the groups bring is accountability, right? They actually help us make sure we're on track to create those Life we want to create. And no man is immune from projection, from shadow, from not seeing the part we have to play in the challenges in our life. And a good group of men who love us, this is the key thing, who love us and know what we want to create in our lives, they're going to be able to reflect to us when we've strayed off course and invite us back in with loving, caring feedback. Terry Real, the therapist is a great term for this. He calls it carefrontation, which is really just a fancy word, right, for what I say. The spinach in the teeth moment. Hey, you realize, Andrew, you got spinach in your teeth right now, man. And you're like, what? I do. And there's like a little embarrassment. And then often what happens the moment after that is, I've been walking around all day and no one told me, but you told me. I actually trust you more now because you're speaking the truth to me that I needed to hear to show up more fully in my life. And that's something my group can do. And that's just something in particular I think fathers really, really need. Because often what I see with guys is we get into some kind of relationship and then we start to have kids and the very thing that drops off the most is our own self care. It just goes right to the bottom of the list. I don't have time to hang out with my buddies. I don't have time to go camping. I don't have time for this or that. And when our nervous system is dysregulated as fathers, guess where that shows up. The whole family can feel it immediately. So getting into something like a men's group is one of the places we can go to restore ourselves so we have the energy, presence and attunement to be able to show up fully in our families and with our kids.

Host (Why, Dad?): Yeah, yeah. That makes me think of a phrase I heard recently where it's important for men, and especially dads, to be selflessly selfish. So, like to take that time for yourself, but you're also, you're doing that for your family and for those around you that you love.

Jason Lange: Great, great word, Great choice. Yeah.

Host (Why, Dad?): And another thing that struck me is as you were talking about, you know, the quote unquote, man's man, you know, Marlboro man, who's like navigating the world on his own, doesn't need nobody. And then he comes to that crisis and he's dealing with both the crisis itself. And you mentioned finding the support to get through the crisis or struggling to do so. It also struck me that there's probably going to be an identity crisis as well, because up to that point, I was like, I don't need anybody. I can do this. And now, like, oh, everything I believed about myself is exploded, is shown to be false. Therefore, who am I if I can't rely on myself? Is that something that you've seen?

Jason Lange: Yeah, definitely see that. And, you know, sometimes, but not always, that'll dovetail with, you know, middle age or changes or what happens. I also work with a lot of men, and I've been lucky to be coached and in relationship with a lot of men who are on the other side of kids who had kids a little earlier than me, whose kids have launched and are out of the house. And that brings in a huge developmental moment for any father because all the energy has been going, oh, just the kids, just the kids, just the kids, just the kids. Suddenly the kids don't need you anymore, and you are in your own way confronted with, well, then, who am I now? And what do I want? And. And in particular, do I even have a relationship anymore? Because that's the thing so many men let atrophy, where their intimate relationship has just become managing the kids. And that is when a lot of men will come to me because, you know, their spouses say, hey, you know, we haven't been in. We haven't had a relationship in 18, 20 years. Like, I don't love you anymore. Like, it's. This isn't working for me. There's. There's nothing here because all you did was work, and then that was it. And that's a real thing a lot of guys have to get confronted with. So all these things swirl together in a group. Just helps catch you through that. Right? I did an episode on my show once where I use the analogy of a good men's group is like shock absorbers for your life. It's not that life isn't going to be bumpy or have pitfalls sometimes, but the group is what helps you smoothly ride those transitions. So that's where it's really so powerful for helping you navigate in particular, these deeper identity shifts where so many of us guys, right. The other thing we do in that kind of Marlboro world is we're kind of given the script, oh, you do this, then you do this, then you do this, and then you'll be happy. Right? And a lot more guys than are willing to admit they do all that. They get there and they realize, wait, did I even Want to do this? I'm working 90 hours a week. I barely see my kids. I'm stressed out. Like, I thought this was the life I wanted so bad. And then they're miserable in it. They're miserable in it. And so again, a good men's group often helps guys also get clear about what they actually want and often make the challenging changes to shift the circumstances of their lives. Other thing while I'm just. It's hot on my tongue here.

Host (Why, Dad?): Oh, yeah.

Jason Lange: Please say is great about groups is, you know, particularly in the West. Right. I think you guys are here in the States with me. Yep. We live this like, you know, the whole idea of the nuclear family was literally just invented in the 40s and 50s. Right. Like that. Okay. You just live with your mom, your dad and your siblings in a house away from everyone else. That is just not how it was done. Like forever. There was a lot more multi generational living, a lot more community living. And we've all heard the platitude. You know, it takes a village to raise a family. And one thing I've seen, very transformative. I'm not quite there yet because my son's just a year old, but I'm even starting to see it a little bit with my daughter and then I see it with the boys in particular. Other men in my men's groups have raised is what happens to a boy's nervous system when he gets to spend time around older men who aren't his father. This is so key. Right. Where I love my kids. I work really hard to be a great dad. I am not a perfect dad. There are some things I'm really good at and there are some things I'm not. It's just not who I am. The men in my group, they plug some of those gaps and we plug some of those gaps for their kids and they get to spend time around older, mature, healthy men. And they know, oh, dad goes and gets support from these other guys and they show up for him when he needs it. And in fact, not only do they show up for him when he needs it, they show up for me. Right. We've had our groups show up at events for their boys trainings or martial arts. And just the feeling of, oh my God, there's not just my dad, but there is a community of men that are tracking me and care about me and are aware of me and that can teach me things. It totally changes young boys nervous systems. I mean, it's unbelievable to feel that immersion that so many of them are just Totally lacking. Right?

Host (Why, Dad?): Yeah, that, that also is kind of eye opening for me. I had never really thought about it that way. And I would imagine that, you know, both for sons and daughters, because if you're, if you are living in that nuclear environment, you know, like, you're going to see your parents as your exclusive role models. And therefore, like, that is at least, you know, from my experience and, and memories, like, that is the right way, you know, and it all comes down to how parents present it too. But. Right, but like, that's probably in my experience is the child's default. It's like they're my caretakers, they're who love me, they're who teach, are teaching me to experience and navigate this world. Therefore, how they do it is the right way. Which, you know, as you alluded to, is like, no, we're good at some things and some things are not so much, and we know the right way to do some things and other things, not so much. But if you introduce them to like a variety, then they can see, okay, hey, like, yeah, like, my dad does this great, but I like how Mr. O does this and Mrs. Z does that. Um, and it gives them just a greater range of experiences. It's kind of like, you know, if you put your kid in soccer and then like that's all they, you know, grow up playing and they don't know, like, they don't know baseball, they don't know swimming, they don't have never experienced anything like that. They're like, they don't know if they enjoy that sport or not. And to, to boot, they're not going to have the cross training or the skills that they might develop in another sport. So I know I went off on a rant there, but I could see so many implications from what you're talking about.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's amazing. And it's just one of the many offshoots. And then that same, I don't know, you could say gift also occurs for us. Right. So I work with some men who didn't have fathers, had abusive fathers. I work with other men who had great fathers. But again, no one father can always give a kid everything they need. If we just imagine it, our needs as nutrition. Right. It's like we kind of need a balanced diet. Usually just how we grow as human beings is, yeah, I'm good at giving my kids some certain medicines. I have to work pretty hard at some other ones, but other people can give it very easily. And so in a men's group, what I've also seen Is it sounds a little woo woo. But the group itself starts to take on the energy of kind of a super father. Right. Because it's made up of all the men in the group and they each have their own gifts. And while certain men can bring some things, other men can bring other things. And just having this incredibly steady presence in our lives where we can bring any challenge to it, the group itself starts to take this space of, wow, I'm like, good here. One guy here will always have me covered in some capacity. And I've seen it be so tremendously healing. Just the way the group starts to function is that in a way, like an elder that brings me the wisdom I need and helps keep me on track in a way that I just don't really see any specific individuals being able to do in my experience so far. So not that I don't have mentors and care about them, but it's just totally wild in a group because you have so much more background and skill sets and gifts of the different men that it becomes this incredible thing where, like, my group is one of my main parenting figures in my own life now. That's awesome.

Host (Why, Dad?): Yeah.

Jason Lange: And, yeah, I mean, just with the small community of Paul and I, you know, and, you know, I have my dad, my older brother, who's the dad of five, and there's a lot, a lot of conversation that goes around on how, like, I want to model my own future fatherhood. You know, it's like, okay, I see. This is good, this is good. You know, and it goes to say, like, just to echo your super dad reference, you know, like, I can see the best of all these different families and what is great. And so it's like, oh, it just gives me ideas to think about how I want to model my own future parenthood. That's so such a great example of that. That's spot on. And one of the many gifts, you know, being in a group really gives, along with also just the transmission to our kids that, hey, guess what? Guess what's totally normal. Needing help and working on yourself to grow. Right, right. Especially for young boys, it's such an amazing transmission that's just like, yeah, daddy goes here I go twice a month right now with my group and I spend time with other men that help me be a better daddy. Right, right. That's what I tell my kids. And because sometimes I need help learning things or sometimes something happens here in the family and I don't know how I could have done it better. And these are the men that help Me figure that out so I can be, you know, as loving a presence as I can. And that starts to communicate something to our kids. Right. When they hear, oh yeah, my parents need help too, and it's okay. It's okay that they need help. It's okay that they're growing, it's okay that they're changing. That's part of our culture that we're living in this family. And then it makes it easier for them to step into that too.

Host (Why, Dad?): I've seen, yeah, that's something that we're pretty passionate about here at YDAD and we've talked about a number of times. Is that kind of going back to, you know, if you see your parents as like the end all be all as the, like basically your, your personal living bible, that can, that can be dangerous because if you're like, oh, I'm not doing what my dad says or my dad is doing or what my mom says or is doing, then there's something wrong with me, you know, and, and I, and there are other things that play into this too, but it can turn into that, like, I'm a bad kid narrative, you know. So, yeah, I, I can really see the benefit of, of kids seeing you as a man, as a father working through your shit. You know, I am curious. So they do see you go, you know, to the men's groups and. But you also mentioned like, one of the benefits of children of men's groups is them like being seen how these other men and dads act and, and all that is how, how have you seen, like, because when I think of men's groups, I think of just, just that, like, okay, hey, like, I'll go to a men's group and then I come back and then basically two separate things. They don't, they don't mix other than how it impacts me at home.

Jason Lange: Sure.

Host (Why, Dad?): But are you suggesting that, you know, there's, you know, whole family get togethers or like, how does that play out such that your kids or the kids of fathers and men's groups can be exposed to these other individuals.

Jason Lange: Yeah. So obviously where this is going to show up the most is in a local group, so a group you can actually meet with physically in person. Not all groups I lead are that for all kinds of reasons. But like, in my case, I'm part of a local group, so I actually drive somewhere 20 minutes away twice a month and I sit in circle. Now, how it starts to show up, where the community gets connected, my family gets connected to the community are a couple ways. One Again, my kids are a little young, so they haven't done this yet. But particularly probably as they get more into kind of adolescents, we'll sometimes have a kid sit in for a meeting, particularly a boy. This is traditional rite of passage kind of stuff. At some point it's like, come be with the men. So you're going to come sit in circle and you're going to learn our rituals and you're going to check in just like everybody else and you're going to do the things we're doing and you're going to have the experience of sitting with the older men. I've had my group, the group showed up for one of the kids in one of their ceremonies once and it was like, this is crazy. Like 10 older men showed up to support me through this really challenging thing I had to do. So that's like a literal one where they can actually come not all the time, but have the experience and actually be in the inside once or twice. Then the other place that shows up for local groups is community is right. So most of my community now comes from my men's group. So it's one of the reasons I actually love a men's group. I'm in Colorado now. Before this, I was living in Los Angeles for a number of years and particularly there, but still here. Just because the life of fathers, I don't have a lot of time. I just don't have a lot of free time. I want to be cultivating healthy friendships and passions and I do not have a lot of time. So a men's group is also extremely efficient in that I get to see, in my case the nine men I care about the most, twice a month, very efficiently, it's four hours. But I get to keep up with all of those relationships and stay fresh in their lives. In a way, just for me personally right now, I could not otherwise I don't have the bandwidth to be doing that many get togethers and one on ones. So it keeps me connected efficiently. But then because that's my main source of community, non men's group time, when I do have time, starts to get filled up with those men and their families. So, oh, we're having a birthday party, we're having a Labor Day party. We just, you know, it's January right now. My group had our holiday party, our Christmas party last December where everybody came over, wore their ugly sweaters, kids were all together, singing songs, you know, and it was that feeling of being together. This is our community, this is our chosen family, right In a Sense is the people who are in this circle. So our kids get to know each other, our spouses get to know each other, our kids get to know the other, my other men, spouses. And it just starts to create, you know, a network. Not a huge one, but a tight one and a meaningful one that shows up for each other. And in that, the kid, you know, again, you know, a lot of people have something like their church community or sporting community, but even that stuff's being stressed these days. Just the way society's like, all these things are going away, that it's so easy to be even as families isolated now we're just like, yeah, Amazon sends us all of our stuff, we go to school, we come home, and, you know, we work. So these kinds of things just make it easy to also have these kind of communal events. And then it's anchored around the depth of the connection of the fathers in those groups, which brings the whole thing deeper. Right?

Host (Why, Dad?): Yeah, yeah.

Jason Lange: So you mentioned, you know, a little bit ago, you know, there's. You have your physical groups, and in some cases that's not possible. So, you know, maybe like a zoom or Google Meets group or something like that. Yeah. A slack group. Can you tell, like, is. Is there like a. I don't know how to word it, but like a diff. A vast difference between the two types of communities. The reason I ask is because, you know, one of my friends was going through AA and during COVID she had a horrible time because she couldn't go to the building to be with her AA community. And it was a struggle for her to maintain her sobriety. She did it. But once the pandemic was over and they could start having those regular meetings, then it's a lot easier for her. Yeah, yeah. Basically, how I put it is it's a spectrum.

Host (Why, Dad?): Right.

Jason Lange: The best is in person when it's available to you, because there's just something too. Getting into a physical room with other people, being able to hug your friends, literally just being able to connect physically is a big deal. But on that spectrum, a virtual group is 10,000 times better than no group. Right? Right. And sometimes that group actually comes with its own gifts, which, depending on schedules, jobs, sometimes I work with guys in the military or have jobs that actually have to move a lot. And for them, it actually becomes a gift that anytime I have to relocate, my community can kind of relocate with me. Right. Right. So I don't have to start over from scratch as I move. I still have my stable base or for new fathers. Right. It can actually be really useful that rather than having to drive somewhere, I can squeeze in a 90 minute meeting from my office in the house and then run right upstairs to, you know, give my kid a bottle or whatever that might be. Sometimes it's actually very convenient to be able to meet from home and not have to go anywhere and not have to travel. So virtual groups can actually have their own gifts as well. And for some men, depending on where they live, they just don't necessarily have access to the type of men that would want to do men's groups and men's work. That's the real truth. Guys are like, yeah, no, they find me and they're like, I want this. I don't know how to do this. There's nothing like this around me. Where do I even start? And for them it's actually easier sometimes to connect with guys virtually. To totally be honest. Myself, I'm part of multiple groups. I have my local group here and I have a virtual group that meets twice a month. And then I have another group of guys from another training I did that we physically meet up once a year and we just do very short 5 minute zoom check ins once a month. So I'm part of three groups. I have lots of men's groups in my life and the virtual ones allow me to stay connected to guys that I really love that don't live here or just don't live around me and I still get something from them and it becomes a really valuable part of my life. And then I have my local group that's taking up most of the space because I can go out and I can see those guys. We get to have shared experiences here. So a local group is great, but it also comes with challenges. You've got to figure out when are you going to meet, where are you going to meet, who's hosting, Is it private? Can we be loud? What's the weather like? You know, it, it brings some extra challenges that a zoom, you know, virtual meetings. There's just so much flexibility. Right, right. I can be. I could have just landed on a business trip and hop on my phone and at least check in with my guys kind of thing. In some ways that can be really useful sometimes.

Host (Why, Dad?): Yeah, yeah. So we've talked about, you know, a lot of the benefits of a men's group and you mentioned, you know, the support and accountability as being the primary ones. And, and we talked about, you know, the downstream effect of like with our spouse and our kids and all of that. So like so many apparent benefits. If A dad is listening to this and he's like, okay, yeah, those benefits are great, but like, but it still sounds like a little woo woo to me, you know, like guys getting together in a circle. Like, what would you say to that concern?

Host (Why, Dad?): Yeah, yeah, I love that. And you know, one of the things I'm hearing is that it gives you a chance to be intentional as a dad, you know, like, yes, you're taking that time to do that work. Whereas if, if you didn't have that time scheduled, it would be so easy just to get caught up in the tedium and the day to day and whatever. And you're going to be in the weeds and you're not going to be able, like, whereas if you, you know, take the chance to climb up the tree, you can see, oh, like I'm going the wrong way. I need to get back on track 100 and yeah, so it sounds like it's that opportunity, you know, to, to take a magnifying glass or, you know, have somebody else call your. You out on your. And, and that's, that's awesome because if you don't take that time to do that. Then you're just going, you're going to stay lost and you'll end up 100 miles off track.

Jason Lange: Yes, exactly. Again, in that same way where I was talking about, part of the gift is what we start to model. Also being part of a group and it's not like I share explicitly what I'm working on inside it. We keep pretty tight confidentiality. My kid knows I'm going to work on myself and grow. The transmission that is already giving my kids is, guess what? Self care is important. Mommy and daddy love you and we do our own self care, which is a lesson. I want them to walk in the world knowing as they have relationships, if they have kids, that yes, it is okay to prioritize self care. Right? What did you say? The selfishness. That's great, right? Yes, yes, that's what it takes. Sometimes you actually have to carve it out of your calendar. It takes intention to care for ourselves and to stay on track. I call my twice a month men's group. The cadence of it, it's like a heartbeat for me every other week. I'm slowing down, dropping in and I'm kind of really feeling where am I at in my life right now? And does it feel like it's going where I want it to go? Okay, maybe it's not. I need some help, guys. Here's what I'm thinking. Here's where I feel stuck. You know me now, you know my history, you know my story. And they just show up, right? And these guys are able to guide me and support me in the ways or sometimes honestly, just give me a space to feel, right. There was a time when. My first daughter, we found out a month after she was born, she was profoundly deaf. We had no idea that it was right when Covid was starting. And it was like this intensity and it was just like, okay, we got to move. We got to act like there's not much time here. We had to get all these tests to find out if she had anything else going on with her and then figure out what we were going to do. And as lot of parents experience, right, part of caregiving is oftentimes you have to take your well being and put it on pause for a moment because you're supporting your kids, you're supporting your spouse, you're supporting your father who just had to move into a nursing home and needs help. Or we know that was my experience. But a men's group is the place where we can make sure that doesn't just get swept under the rug. That, okay, I didn't have the time to process that then, but I do need to come back to it because if I don't, it's going to stay in my body, eating me alive from the inside. It's one of the main things that steals our vitality as men is unprocessed emotion and feeling. And a group gives us some place to do that, to be held, to allow the grief to come through, to allow the fear to come through, to allow the rage to come through. There's all, you know, it all counts. And a group just gives us a place to metabolize it so that it's not running the show for us the rest of the time when we're outside of the group. And so that heartbeat gives me a place to sometimes just slow down, like I said, and grieve and feel. And for the guys that again, that are skeptical of that, what I've seen time and time again is the best way to get over that skepticism is, is to get into a group and experience another man who feels something deeply without collapsing and without posturing. But he's right there in the middle, just, man, this is what's true for me right now. And he stays with it and he feels it on the other side of that. Almost every man I've ever worked with will witness that man and say, I trust him more now. I feel his strength more now. He feels even more solid to me right now. I don't know if I could have done that. You guys will say this all the time and eventually they get to do it and they're like, oh, wow, turns out I can do it. Just nobody had shown me or given me a safe space to do it. And it's part of what again just allows us to stay alive and vital, to actually be present in our kids lives in particular as fathers. And that's really the greatest gift we can give our kids. It's not all the toys and the money and the adventures. They just want to feel our presence. And the one thing that's hard for most dads is I feel so busy, I feel so burdened. I'm juggling so much. When I do get that window of time with my kid, I feel like a robot. I'm kind of on my phone, I'm exhausted and I'm not actually there for them. So I need to do the work and take responsibility for how do I need to structure my life, including getting in a group so that I have that in me for those precious Times that go so fast. I mean, it goes so fast. Right. Just blows me away every day. I'm like, wow, okay, my kid is not a baby anymore. My kid is a kid. Like, where's it going?

Host (Why, Dad?): Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're in that stage right now. My oldest, she's turning five in a couple months, and we were just looking at some videos of when she was 2 and it's like, where did that time go? You know, she's, she's a kid now. She's not a toddler. And, and, and it's, and it's insane. But, but yeah. And that, that time with our kids, it's. I believe that that is what will influence a lot of their confidence, self confidence, their self love. Because if my parents love me enough to spend time with me and to be with me and to see me and all that, then, like, then I can learn to do the same myself. Whereas if, if you're not giving them time or like we had Larry from the dad Edge podcast, we're dropping his episode. Oh. Or by the time this will have aired it, that episode will already have aired. But he, One of the things he says, like, one of the best things you can do to be a good dad is to, to answer every bit for attention from your kids. Because if you're not. Yeah. If you're distracted with your phone or if you're, or answering an email or whatever, what is the answer? What is the message? Like, oh, I'm not important enough. That's more important than me. And, but you're right. Like, just everything that's going on in life, especially as men and dads, we take it all on our shoulders is like, if we don't have somewhere to place that, to share that burden with, then we just won't have the capacity to show up for our kids. So. So, yeah, that, that speaks to me deeply. So this dad, you successfully convinced him, he's like, okay, I'll face my fears. I'll. I'll embrace the woo woo. He goes and looks for some groups. What are some red flags to keep an eye out for in a group?

Jason Lange: Yeah, no, structure would be the biggest one. Meaning if the plan is we're just going to get together and there's no structure, agreements, or leadership, it's not going to be nearly as deep as it can be. And if there's no expectation, particularly around attendance, it's not going to be that deep. Meaning, oh, you just come when you can. Those groups just don't last. They blow away in the wind. Because it's not a priority for the men in their lives. And then everybody feels that, well, if it's not a priority for you, you're not coming. Why should I go? I'm busy today too. And it just falls apart so fast. So you want to have strong intention for attendance and then you want to have real structures and agreements for. Okay, how do we make sure when we spend our time together? I love men. I'm a man and I'll be honest. Men. What we like to do by default is float up and talk about things. Right? Right. We just talk about things. Right. It's just where our head goes. We report about things. So we need structure to help us go deeper. What does that. Yeah, what does that structure entail? Could you use your current men's group? Like what the structure looks like? That, that. So we have like. Sure. An idea. Yeah. I mean different groups are going to be focused on different things. But the idea is, you know, I teach men how to do this. If they want to start their own group, it's okay. How do we stop ourselves from just getting into that reporting space? So structure structured literally just means what's the schedule for the night? Right. Where are we putting our attention and why in any given moment? Because if we don't have that, we just drift and we'll stay at the surface. So structure can be something as simple as. There's countless ways to do this. This is just one example. Okay, we're each going to go around the circle and we have three minutes and we're going to share the deepest pain I'm in in my life right now is. And the man shares for three minutes and then the other man have about two minutes to get give him some kind of reflection. So all that is, right, it's just a sentence, but it's a structure that guides the check in to somewhere deep versus oh, last week I had to go pick up my dad from the airport and then my car tire broke and then this. Usually what we'll do is we'll just list the things that happened to us and we'll not talk about the feelings underneath. And so structure helps bring us down into our feelings. So in groups, I lead. Usually we get together. One of the first things we'll do is some kind of transitional embodiment practice to get out of the default world and actually arrive here. Particularly in a local group. Guys are driving, they're in cars, they're dealing with traffic. Often at the end of the day, they've been working, they're hungry so an embodiment practice, I mean it could just be meditation, it could be a physical practice, it could be some breath work. It's a way to. Okay, but now we're here, we're coming out of our heads and we're showing up here if a group needed it. My group's been going for so long now, we don't do this every time, but we'd go through our agreements, which are literally what are our rules for being here in group together and need those rules. Who talks when? What do we do about this? Are we allowed to share with our spouses? If you don't have any of that said? No, men are going to feel safe. You have to have a strong container and strong rules. And then we'll usually transition into sometimes some kind of, you know, some groups I'll do, we'll do some kind of skill building practice where we're actually practicing something that we're wanting to get better at around conversation or presence or feedback or, you know, who knows what it would be. But then really the brunt of most groups I lead is, okay, now we're going to go deeper. We're actually going to go deeper. Each man's going to check in with what's going on and then he's going to get reflection from the other men in the group about how he's showing up, how present does he feel, how alive does he feel? Does he feel like he's actually being truthful with everything he's sharing? And then men can ask for feedback or coaching or support or advice if they need. For a lot of guys, honestly, we don't even need that. We just need a space to be heard. And then we talk about some of these deep things we feel a little bit and then it's this incredible thing. It's like watching a man reassemble. He comes in kind of crushed, defeated, exhausted, whatever he gets to share, it's just like, ah, yeah, I don't know, the problem's not fixed. But I feel a little better now, feel a little more equipped to go out and handle that in life. And there's just so many different things that kind of lead to that. And different groups and trainings will have different styles of what structures they bring and what they emphasize. But it really is about that what I would say is a good group more than anything else is going to create the container to help. Like I said, men slow down and connect and feel their direct felt body experience. What's it actually like to be in your body and heart and Life right now, Just feel it, man. Oh, my God, you're right. I can't do this job anymore. The tears come and they just finally feel it, and they realize, I cannot do this to my life anymore. And then usually within a couple weeks, the change happens when they actually go to the thing they're so scared of and metabolize it and feel it in community. That's the thing that is so powerful about groups, too, is we're not meant to process deep, challenging, emotional stuff alone. It's just not how we're wired. Guys think we are, or guys will come to me. I wish I could cry. I wish I could cry. I could never cry. Get them into a group. Couple of men just put their attention on them. No problem. Crying just, boom, totally changes, and then they feel better. Crying is how we heal. That's. It doesn't make you weak. It's literally how your body takes care of itself. That's all it is.

Host (Why, Dad?): Yeah. Oh, man. Dude, this has been so great. I can't believe we're already out of time here. I feel like we could keep talking for another hour, so maybe we'll just have to have you on again for sure. This also makes me super stoked. Andrew and I, you know, by the time this episode drops, we'll already have had our first few events, so super stoked for the possibilities therein. One last real quick question or two quick questions? One is, what is the most dad thing you've done this week? And two, where can people find you?

Jason Lange: Honestly, the most dad thing I did this week was wipe off poop off the floor because I didn't realize I changed my son's diaper and I just got in a new trash can where you, like, step on the pedal and the thing flies up. And guess who figured that out at 1 years old? So he had reached in, grabbed the diaper, thrown it on the floor. The poop had leaked out, and I had been, you know, looking over here and anyway, so there was like, oh, my God. You know, kind of proud of him in one sense. Like, wow, you figured out the trash can. And oh, my God, I gotta, like, stick the diaper deeper now because now you can reach it. Pretty dad. Classic dad.

Host (Why, Dad?): Yes, Yes. I think that that qualifies. All right. And then where can folks find you?

Jason Lange: Yeah, you can learn all about me. I have my own podcast, kind of about men's groups and men's works all at Evolutionary Men. So not dot com, but dot Men. And on there, I mean, I just talk about this stuff all the time. I have trainings around men's groups, how to start men's groups. If you're looking for a group and you don't know how to find one, you don't even have to work with me. Just reach out. I will give you some tips and tools for, you know, how to start looking for things in your community or your area. Because I think just we dads in particular need this now more than ever. Agreed?

Host (Why, Dad?): Hell, yeah. I love it. And we'll share all those links in our show notes. But, Jason, thank you so much for your time and giving us a couple extra here as well. And, yeah, looking forward to staying in touch.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's been awesome, guys. Thanks so much. Thank you.

Host (Why, Dad?): All right. All right, guys, that wraps up our show. If you want to learn more about Jason, check out the show notes. If you're not in a men's group, check one out. If you're in the area, check ours out. Anyways, until next time, goodbye.

Jason Lange: Thank you. Thank you all. Thank you, Paul. Thank you, Jason.