Unlocking Men’s Full Potential: Sex, Relationships, and More! | Between the Sheets: Exploring Sexual Health & Wellness

Jason Lange: Thank you so much for having me. Dr. Stephanie, excited to be here?

Host: Yeah, absolutely. So how did you kind of get into the world of helping men?

Jason Lange: Yeah, my journey in supporting men really started in with my journey and the support I needed. So I was raised in a family, kind of lower middle class family in the Midwest of the United States, had most of my basic security needs. You know, met white, privileged guy in a lot of ways. But as I became particularly a teenager and I'm heterosexual in my case, and as my body started to develop and I was interested in girls, I discovered I didn't know how to do it. I didn't know how to talk to women. I was extremely uncomfortable in my body around women in particular. And later as I discovered, even around men. And that was really a gateway for me into realizing, oh, wow, I was raised a little differently than some people and long and short of it was while I had my security needs met as a young boy, my house was completely absent of touch and emotional connection. So that's tough. I became a teenager, my body literally didn't know what it Felt like to just give or receive touch and let alone to communicate what was happening inside my mind. And I would get all anxious and kind of clammy and really heavily ruminate when I was around women. I didn't know how to talk to them. And that really kick started a journey of, okay, there's gotta be a different way to do this. And in my case, I dealt with the loneliness, was totally addicted to porn, had some eating problems. And as I got into my 20s, it took me a long time. I hadn't kissed a girl till I was in college, didn't have my first sexual experiences till my mid to late 20s. And it took me doing a lot of inner work to become comfortable, particularly around touch was my kind of gateway and, and learning to kind of relax in my body and all the things I needed to do to eventually create healthy, intimate connections.

Host: It always amazes me how much our childhood really impacts our adult ability to be in relationships, to be a whole person. It's. It's phenomenal to me. And you know, there's always the joke about, well, it's my parents fault or whatever. And I get that we can be comical about it too. But there's so much truth in how we were raised and how it develops us as adults.

Jason Lange: 100%. And as I work with a lot of my men around, you know, a lot of guys are sometimes afraid. They're like, my parents were doing the best they could and they don't want to, you know, vilify them, but I tend to just mark it as well. It's not about blaming them, but it is about acknowledging the impact of how you were raised. That even, you know, even the best parents can't give us everything we need. Exactly. Right. But it starts with ack acknowledging that. And so my house, right, there was no emotional connection, no communication, no touch, absolutely no talk about sex, let alone, you know, my parents, they didn't have a passionate connection. So I never had it modeled for me. What it even looked like and felt like to be around a couple who was connecting intimately, right. They didn't flirt, they didn't kiss, didn't get the sense that they were connected in an intimate way. They were just kind of two people living in the same house. And lo and behold, that's a story I hear from so many men I work with. And in that vacuum when we never had anything modeled for us, and you know, as you very well know, our pretty subpar educational system, a lot of, I include myself in this. A lot of us boys are Raised on porn. It's kind of our gateway to sexuality. And that in itself obviously creates all kinds of dysfunction and problems in terms of expectations around what sex should be.

Host: Yeah. You know, it's interesting because for a long time, I would treat men in their late 40s, 50s, 60s, and beyond for erectile dysfunction. And in the last couple of years, especially since COVID which is interesting because that's the lack of touch again. Right. The lack of relationships, the lack of touch that we had during that period. And I'm having guys in their 20s and 30s coming in with severe ed. And their biggest thing is masturbating and porn and masturbating frequently with specific ways they masturbate and specific types of porn that they watch. And so they get so wrapped up in this one way of getting off that when it comes to partnered sex, nothing works for them because it's not that particular map.

Jason Lange: Totally. You're not the first person I've heard about the getting younger and younger. And that's, yeah, I think, a crisis in a lot of ways. And the interesting thing, at least with guys I work with is, you know, I would say 80% of men that I end up working with are like, yeah, I want to give up porn. Like, I have. I don't have a healthy relationship with it. And as I do deep work with a lot of the men, I think, and this is sometimes the challenging things for partners of men who have problems with porn. Oftentimes for a lot of guys I work with, it's not even about the porn. It's porn and masturbation are the primary tool, like they were for me, for self regulation. And so we think we want to quit porn, but the actual problem underneath is we're using it to regulate a completely stressed out and overwhelmed nervous system. And that's just the most convenient tool these days. Right. Literally in our phone, in our pocket, anywhere, anytime. And unwinding. That is a lot of the work I have to do with men. Right. Because I've heard these stories and I've had a few of the guys wrote, well, you know, generally in your 20s, it's not a physiological problem that's causing Ed. Right. There's. There's other layers of things going on. There often are these habitual nervous system patterns which even for a lot of guys, right. Just the whole imprint of our sexuality becomes, I have to do this and get off as fast as I can without anyone in the house knowing. So it's got this very like internal, quick kind of programmatic energy to it that you're right. It takes time to unlearn that and that's a huge edge for a lot of men I work with. Of like, yeah, what's, have you ever tried a self pleasure practice without any external stimulation and not touching your genitals and they're like, what are you talking about? What is that? It's like you have a whole body.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: You know, like you want to actually get in touch with that and realize there's lots of ways to open yourself sexually and feel pleasure and whatnot. But it is a huge, I think it's a big crisis right now. And you know, I, I, you probably know the stats even more than me. It's something like the, the amount of people having sex under the age, it just keeps going down like every year. Which is kind of crazy.

Host: Yeah, it really is. You know, and I think it's interesting because I'm not sure exactly what your age was, but when I was growing up, porn was you had to like, if you didn't have access to it because we weren't 18 yet, you had to like put the magazine through the plastic cover to try and see things. You had, maybe your friend had a VHS tape, but you had to like watch it at night after the parents went to bed, like on mute, you know, like. And so it wasn't always there. And so I think now this generation of having it on their phone, on their computer, everywhere, even regular TV programs are basically soft porn now. And so it's everywhere. No wonder they go straight to that for release.

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. I was like, yeah, exactly. Generation wise. You know, the Internet came right in my late high school, like broadband Internet. So I kind of had toes in both worlds. But like it started with, yeah, someone found magazines and they were stored in the field and you know, it was like the local treasure kind of thing. Very different than, you know, but in a sense you had to like go and find it right back then, which is very different than now. It's like you just open your phone and it comes to you.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: You know, and is available anywhere. And what that does to men, long term, just in terms of their health and physiology, let alone one of the issues I had with it was as I progressed in my work and you know, was learning to get in touch with myself, breaking through layers of numbness, getting more comfortable in my body and communication. The challenge is right for a lot of us guys after we ejaculate prolactin hits and the very last thing we want to do is take any kind of action. Right. It actually shuts the system down. And the problem I would have is I was so addicted to porn that it was just easier to stay home and open up an Internet browser than it was to actually go out in the world and get uncomfortable and interact with human beings.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: And so a lot of the work I do with, with men, you know, we're coming up on so called no nut November is learning. Hey, what does it mean to. It's not about demonizing masturbation, but it's about learning what is the difference in feeling in your body when you haven't ejaculated for a while and when you have. In most men I work with, you know, I usually do like a 30 day challenge. It's a pretty profound experience. You know, there's guys I work with in their 40s, 50s and 60s that have never gone more than a day without ejaculating for decades, decades. And as they just allow that to restore a bit a certain type of energy and what I kind of call hunger comes back online, which lo and behold is the very hunger and fire we need to. Wow, there's someone I'm attracted to. I'm actually going to walk across the cafe and say hi. And my life profoundly shifted in my. I think I ended up doing it in my 30s. The first time I really took on one of these challenges, I, I did, I think it was four months and then I had one sexual experience and then three months and that was just it. There was one time in like seven months and it was crazy.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: How much my body changed, how much my energy changed.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: You know, I wasn't really telling people what I was doing that hey, you know, but it was so funny. The comments I would get are, have you lost weight? You like you, you've looked really. I hadn't actually lost any weight, but the energy in my body and mano cheese, so to speak, I had. People didn't know how to explain it, but they're like, you feel different. Like I just wasn't this kind of like, ugh.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Just had vibrancy. And so it's a big thing I work with men on in terms of unwinding that and learning to rewrite their challenges often around sexual health.

Host: Yeah. I think that's amazing. And you know, I love self pleasure and self practice and all of those things. And I think what you said earlier, that helping guys learn that there are other ways of pleasure rather than just masturbate, climax, have sex, climax. There are. You can touch yourself in different Ways you can use different techniques, different pressures, different temperatures, whatever, and, you know, just really getting into that. Yeah. Like you said, not demonizing masturbation, not demonizing porn, Doing it in the right ways is super healthy and all those things. And, you know, there's great research out there that talks about how great it is to have regular orgasms and all those things. So obviously, love that. I have a sex podcast. Love that. But there is so much to taking a break, learning the focus, getting that energy and the amount of enjoyment and pleasure that you can achieve subsequently to that is phenomenal.

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. This is. You know, it's so interesting. One of the challenges, I think, for men is, you know, the female body has the natural rhythm of a monthly cycle. Right. So things build up and then there's a release. And while, you know, there's some research that we kind of have something like that as men, it's very different. And this is where I do see things get so complex for us guys, particularly between the masculine culture we're taught around what it means to be a man and what your relationship to your emotions are, which are essentially, to be a man means to be invulnerable. Don't show any weakness, never share your feelings. You better not cry. Don't ask for help. Right. This whole kind of programming that men still fall for, honestly, in terms of like what a real man is. But the challenge in a lot of the work I do with men, you know, I don't have the background you have. So when I'm working with men, it tends to be more from kind of a psycho spiritual side of things. And the truth about men is because we don't have a monthly cycle, what I find for a lot of men is their orgasm is a tool for emotional discharge, whether it's in relationship or self pleasure. Right. There's this idea of like, I have to get off, there is tension in my body and I have to get it out of me. Right. Of even in terms of masturbation. Right. That's a very different outcome.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: For your masturbation than an actual. I'm going to enjoy my body, feel pleasure instead. It's this thing like I have to get through to get to a certain outcome to discharge this emotional content, which is so high for a lot of men because they like me. You know, I didn't have any awareness of what I was feeling inside, let alone how to communicate it and what to handle it. And so there's this sense of I need to constantly ejaculate in order to manage my emotions. And again, whether that's a masturbation practice or even with a partner, it doesn't create the most connected pleasurable sexual experience. When that's your. When your main reason from doing for doing it is getting away from something versus wanting to create some kind of connection or intimacy. And you know, that shift from kind of outcome oriented sex to the process itself is such a big one for men. It was for me in terms of, oh, okay, there's a whole other explained territory or terrain here that lo and behold, the more you lean into that too, the more you do get older. And if Ed comes up, it's not such a big deal.

Host: Right?

Jason Lange: Because it's not all about just penetrative orgasmic sex. There's lots of things to do right. If you can't get it up or if you ejaculate too early. And again, even with that, where I tend to work with a lot of men, if it's not physiological, is what drives a lot of that. Ed, particularly with partners, is shame, is this sense of, I'm not good enough, I don't have the sexual prowess to stay connected to you. And I'd be curious in getting your perspective. But as I've worked with more and more men and gotten to know their partners, it's rarely the erectile dysfunction that kills the intimacy. It's when the shame takes the man over and we withdraw or stop or get angry. That's what kills the connection. There's lots of ways to continue. Even if, you know, our sex organ can't keep up. It's just like, okay, we're going to pivot to this and we can keep going. And if that's the case, most women are like, that's totally fine. There's lots of ways we can enjoy this. And it's that pressure men often put on themselves and sometimes they get from their partners that creates so much internal stress that again, connects to all kinds of emotional content that we often have to do work around.

Host: Yeah, it's interesting. A lot of times I will have guys who come in for erectile dysfunction that I will say, hey, at your next appointment, bring your partner with because we all need to be in this discussion. Because, yeah, she will think something's wrong with her and then that done and that he's not attracted to her and then she's feeling bad, which then makes him feel even more shame and feel bad. And then psychologically, he's never going to get an erection, regardless of how much medicine or injections or whatever I Can do physiologically to help him. So it's so interesting. I talk to my guys all the time. Listen, your head to head connection with real strong guys, real strong. So we got to fix what's up here to fix down there. And some of them really have a hard time grasping that concept. And I think it goes back to what you're saying that it's so ingrained to get the stress relief to, you know, make a baby to. There's so many like just finite lines for male sex. And it's not about pleasure and it's not about connection. So how do you help your guys start to overcome what society has taught them about sex and getting that orgasm versus the emotional part of it? How do you like, get them to jump over to your side?

Jason Lange: So the, you know, a big frame that we've kind of talked about that is my lead in here is this idea of tension. So, right. Particularly for us men, erections are really interesting, right, because it's an active blood flow. But to get it requires our blood vessels to relax. So we actually have to be in a parasympathetic state. We have to feel relaxed. And again, this is, you know, I think part of the negative of porn culture. So many of us guys are raised with this idea. I should be able to get it up on demand, keep it going for as long as I want without any problem. Cause that's what they see the video. The guy just gets hard and he goes and goes and goes and goes and goes. And for a lot of guys, it does actually start with, you know, a lot of the men I work with tend to be pretty self aware and attuned and whatnot. Are at least aware that, okay, for a lot of females there's a connection between the heart and their sexuality. Right. The more open the heart is, often the more open they feel in their bodies. Turns out it's true for us men as well. If we don't feel safe, it's often very hard to get an erection. So it's starting to teach men that what you're feeling in your body matters and what you're feeling in your heart matters. And this idea of so many of us men, like I said, aren't given the tools for being aware of what's happening inside. And so many guys walk around with so much just bodily tension, right? Stressed out, tight back, tight breath, all just, all the time because, oh my God, I gotta do this or that. And so a big part of what I teach men is for one, you gotta get present in your Body, you actually have to be connected to your body and you have to learn and take responsibility, frankly, for unwinding the stress in your body. Right. Which might mean slowing down at work, getting better sleep, taking better care of your nutrition. Things guys don't immediately think about when they think about sexual health. Right. It's, I just want to get to the outcome. Give me the pill. Yeah, it's like, well, what's the situation of your life? What stress are you carrying? Where do you need to set boundaries? Where do you, you know, there's lots of stuff. So that when you get into an intimate moment with your partner, your body's actually relaxed. That's a huge part of it. And lo and behold, if your body's relaxed and not already amped up with so much stress and tension, that already is going to change the nature of the interaction because you're not going to be coming from so much of that tension release side of things. And then emotionally it's, yeah, safety matters. And guess what? Just because you're a man, this is part of that kind of programming I talk about. We kind of loosely label the man box, right? This idea that to be a man means you have to fit inside this box and check off these certain traits. Another one of which, like I said, is you should be able to get hard on demand, should be able to stay hard as long as you want. And if sex is available for you, you should take it. Shocking to me how much this one impacts men. That, oh my God, I can tell this woman like kind of likes me or my partner's feeling desire right now, but I'm not. And then this whole story springs up about what's wrong with me. Like, I'm a guy, sex, I should take it. And it's like, well, no, maybe you don't feel connected to the person or maybe you're not attracted to them or all of this stuff. We have to start to unwind emotionally and learn that, hey, it's okay to talk and connect. And what I found is when men learn to become present, so actually just get connected and present in the moment, which often means getting out of their heads into their bodies, feeling their sensations, and when I say into their body, meaning beyond just their dicks.

Host: Yes.

Jason Lange: Right. You have a whole body.

Host: Yes.

Jason Lange: Right.

Host: 99% of your body is not your penis.

Jason Lange: Exactly. So getting present, learning to unwind physical and emotional tension and then learning, just learning to communicate. Yeah, Just talk about these things. Like, hey, is this working? Is this not working? Can we debrief these things? That so many of us are just not taught to do around sex. There's this expectation that I should just know how to make my partner orgasm. And if I don't, there's something wrong with me as a man versus talking like, hey, what do you, like, can we try some things out? Can we like actually discover this together? Which for so many guys, they're just terrified of. So it's, it's making the shift to, yeah, you gotta get in your body, you gotta unwind this tension and you gotta learn to communicate. And if you do those things, there's so much more possible for you that could be so much more enjoyable and pleasurable and take a lot of the pressure off. But it's a little. Sometimes it's a hard lift. Because guys, when I start talking about emotions stuff, they're like, ah, what do you mean? I don't want to do that? Like, what are you talking about? But it's like, yeah, this is, you know, she's gonna, you know, in my case, I mostly work with heterosexuals. But your partner can feel the tension in your body, right? And if you're in your head and somewhere off, that impacts the connection. Or if you're not fully relaxed in your body, that impacts the connection. So it's kind of your responsibility to do as much as you can to show up relaxed and available for the connection. And this stuff isn't rocket science per se. And once I get men connected to other men and they learn they could talk about this and there's just this wait. There's lots of ways I can get a lot of my needs and emotional connection met that aren't just sex. It frees up so much energy that they can recontextualize what sex can be in their lives.

Host: Yeah, it's interesting. I love that you get men into groups and connect. That's one of the things that I see in clinic is I will have guys who are like, oh, I'm absolutely only going to try Viagra or Cialis. I'm not moving on to injections. And they've had their prostate removed. Like, you know, we know that you need a little extra help physiologically. That's just where you're at, you know, and then they'll come back to me like three months later and be like, you know, I was talking to my guy friends about this and this one uses the injections and that one got an implant and this one, you know, and we're all have prostate cancer and we all had these things and whatever. And his ability to open up to other options and ideas is so much greater than when I first had that conversation. And he was like, you want me to put a needle where like, you know, well, you know, you don't have to. But if you, if penetration is important to you, if getting that strong erection is important to you, this is an option I have for you. And a lot of times they'll go home and they'll talk to their wives or their partners and it's not, they're still like, oh. And she'll say, no, no, no, no, we don't need to do that, you don't need to do that, whatever. But if they have a male partner or they have male friends and they can kind of talk through it with them, all of a sudden they're more relaxed about it. So I love that you incorporate male groups into what you do to really have that support connection.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's, I mean, so foundational to the work I do. I mean, it completely changes how men relate to their partners, to their relationships. Because again, you know, another way to think about it is one of the challenges I see. So with so many guys because of default kind of male culture is again, you know, mostly men are competition, don't show weakness, even if you do have friends. The default way most men connect is via what I call triangulation or side by side. So me and you are bonding by having our attention on some third thing.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: A sports screen, a sporting event, an activity, fishing. So we're with each other and we're connecting, but it's very different than we're facing each other, putting our attention on each other and actually talking about our lives.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And many men are completely lacking that, even if they have so called male friends. And what that ends up doing is it puts so much pressure on guys because then for a lot of men, the only place they feel safe bringing emotional connection is with their intimate partner. And then suddenly there's so much pressure put on that relationship because for a lot of guys then the gateway to them becoming emotionally expressive is through sexual connection.

Host: Oh.

Jason Lange: If we're connecting sexually, then I kind of, my heart opens up, I connected to her, I can talk about things. But then if there's a problem with the sexual connection, it's harder to get to that heart connection or I only feel safe sharing my emotions with my intimate partner. And that can be hard on them because suddenly they're our lover, our best friend, our therapist, our confidant. And it puts so much pressure on that relationship versus when men get into Community and learn. Not only can I get some of my emotional connection made met from other men, but this is a huge one that completely rewires men. But touch, just like getting a hug from another man is completely game changing. When men learn how to do it. Not just like the bro hug, we can't, can't let our dicks touch hug, but the actual belly to belly. Hey, man, come in. You know I got you. As men get connected in that it relieves so much pressure from their intimate relationship. And when there's less pressure, guess what? There's more room for play and connection and that ease we were talking about. And then men can talk about these inner things, whether it's sexual health challenges or emotional health challenges. And every time I lead these groups, men are like, oh, my God, I thought I was the only one. Yeah, turns out I'm not the only one. That in itself is such good medicine and relaxes me. And now instead of holding this all inside and shame, I can just talk about it and then we can actually compare notes and we can grow and support each other in our journeys. And it just, it's such a change for guys.

Host: Yeah, that's amazing. Do you find that with your men's group, in person is better. Do you do online, like, Zoom kind of things? How does that work for you?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I've, I do both. I support men in experiencing both. I'm part of both myself. I have an in person group and I have virtual groups. There is definitely a certain magic if you can physically get in a room with men. Again, touch connection, just like a level of presence that if you can do it, is awesome. But, you know, as we navigated, Covid and Zoom came online, you can have a very effective experience, even just virtually. Like, I've been shocked at how well it can really support men. And, you know, if we consider it a spectrum, an in person group's the best. But a good virtual group can get you 80, 90% of the benefits, I think in a pretty effective way. And for some people, it's actually easier. Like, I got two kids and it's actually easier to sometimes just hop on a Zoom and not have to leave my house juggling jobs and stuff. And, you know, I'll also name for some men, you know, not a small amount of men I work with, some of their deepest trauma actually came from other men. Bullying, sure. Abuse. And so trusting other men is extremely edgy for them. And it has a with it. And what I found there is the virtual is a great gateway. Okay, back to healthy connection. Because, okay, I'm in my own room. It's just on a screen. It doesn't necessarily trigger the bodily alarm that being in a room with, you know, eight or nine other men might initially. And it becomes like a softer on ramp for some guys and then they feel more comfortable. I know those guys. So, you know, if I spend time with them online, it's totally different to then meet up. So they're both really valuable. And the, the other nice thing about virtual these days is, you know, I work with a gu all around the country in the world and if you're not lucky to live in a certain locale or geography where this works a little more present, you don't have many choices. But virtual means, oh yeah, cool. You could be in the middle of nowhere and still have a powerful community with you of men that you cultivate. So both are quite effective. And I wouldn't necessarily say one's better than the other, that they both have gifts and challenges.

Host: Sure, sure, absolutely. I love that you get into the emotional part of it with men. I can tell you from my own relationships. I have met been with men that fit in the box and life is about them. Life is about their orgasm. Life is, you know, they follow. They don't know how to emotionally connect. They don't know how to support me when I have emotions because they're not in touch with their own. And I've had relationships with men with great emotional intelligence and being able to connect emotionally makes that physical connection so much better and so much stronger. I love that you do that and that you allow men to tap into that side of them.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's one of the big shifts. You know, I think a lot of men get stuck in and some of the work I do is this either or mentality. Right. Which is either you're kind of more that traditional macho my way or the highway me oriented guy who's in certain ways a strong leader. They know what they want, they're connected to their cocks. Like, you know, they go for what they want. But like you said, they have no relational capacity to be attuned to what the other person wants or needs or the impact of it. And you know, we've had literally tens of thousands of years of demonstrations of the damage those kind of men can cause. So you know, it's interesting, a lot of the men I work with are the kind of pendulum swing away from that in that grew up either being raised by mothers who had, you know, absentee fathers or you know, even Younger kids. It's even stronger now kind of as we've gone through the me too movement of seeing. Oh, yeah, I don't like, literally, I hear this phrase all the time. I don't want to be that guy. Don't want to be the angry, dangerous, sexual predator notch on the belt guy. But then the pendulum swings a little bit too far to the other side, to the so called kind of nice guy. Right. I'm not really connected to my power, to my sexuality, to my desire. In fact, I have a lot of shame around my desire as a man. I've been told it's bad. I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable, so I'm super friendly. I don't want to push my agenda. So I want you to take the lead. You let me know. And you know, for a lot of female partners, they're like, I'm leading my life all day long. Like, can you please at least just plan the date?

Host: Yes.

Jason Lange: You know, or initiate or whatever that might be. And they've kind of gone too far the other way. Men get stuck in this. Either or. It's either I have to be in my heart or I have to be in my cock. The work we're kind of talking about here is what happens when we bring both, right? And when we can bring both as men. It's amazing. It's like, okay, I get to be in touch with my power, my desire, and I get to be attuned and present and receiving and giving. And in fact, you know, everything gets better when we have access to two. And for a lot of men, the challenge is there's just not a lot of modeling of what that looks like in terms of healthy masculinity out there, which includes, yeah, I have no problem crying or getting angry or asking for help or sharing my fears. Like, I can communicate all that without collapsing in shame, but also without the fake posturing of, you know, I'm tough, I don't need anything, I'm all good. And instead we get to find this sweet spot in the middle that is so liberating for men when they realize it doesn't have to be either or, it can be both. And. And I can be that man that can take the lead and communicate. And frankly, it has done enough work to get in touch with my own emotions that I'm not as scared of them. And if I'm not as scared of my own emotions, guess what, it's much easier for me to be present to you my partner's emotions. So if you're in grief, I don't have to try to get you out of it and fix you or offer you a solution. I can just be present with you in it because I'm not afraid of feeling the resonance of my own grief. And that is such a game changer for guys. Honestly. It ends up being a relief for a lot of guys around. They're like, wait, you're telling me I don't actually have to fix her problems? Like, I literally just have to kind of listen, and I'm like, yeah. And then they do it, and they're like, oh, my God, you're. You're totally right.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: You know, I just had to be present and not, like, immediately go into mental fixing mode and try to change her feelings.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: You know? Yeah. It's so great.

Host: It is. And it's amazing from the female perspective, too, because, like I said, I've had various partners, and my boyfriend is very emotionally intelligent and is amazing because I'm a strong, independent woman. I do my shit, you know, I. I am very successful, and I do my thing, and I've been a single mom for a long time, so I got my jam, and he fully supports me. He is not intimidated by me. He's like, all right, what do you want to do next? You got podcast stuff today. Cool. I'm gonna go do this so you can do that and all these things. And we. Yet, when I come home, I tell him, I was like, I love that you provide this safe place for me, because I know I can talk to you about everything. I can trust you with my emotions, and I can also trust you to take the lead. I get to come home, and I get to relax, and I get princess treatment, and, you know, my doors are open for me. Hey, do you want to cook tonight? Should we go out? Like, I had a stressful day. I don't want to cook. Cool. Let's go out, or I'll cook dinner or whatever. And finding that balance with someone, my God, it is life changing. Life changing for me as the partner and for him, too, that I can give him a safe place to be that man. He's had partners before who made him feel less than because he was emotionally connected and things like that. Whereas I can provide that safety because I love that side of him, and I can celebrate that.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And it sounds like you've had. Right. This is what I tell a lot of guys, is, you know, I do help a lot of men learn to step kind of back into their directive, masculine guidance, but it's not from A place of dominating my way or the highway. It's. I actually want to offer this as a gift to my partner because oftentimes my partner is crushing it all day.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And doesn't want to do that more. But the paradox is once, you know, I mean, you can share this with me, but like, once. Once I've heard from so many women, once we know our partner can do that, they don't have to do it all the time.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: Like, I'm totally happy to tag team now. Like, hey, no, you plan the day tonight. It's just knowing that he has that capacity to step forward into the leadership in itself is so healing. And then there's a certain amount of reciprocity that can go back and forth. And a lot of guys, you know, again, are afraid to take that lead. Not only in that more relational way, but, yeah, absolutely, in the bedroom. Now, that's with so many guys I know. Right. They're just in terror. Right. Of making a first move or going for what they want and then they get up in their heads and then, you know, again, it causes so many issues with that where it's like, no, you can just learn to be in your body, learn to read her body, and it can just be a fun exploration and taking the lead in that way, and it changes things completely. And having that emotional connection just deepens it all when it's really there.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And I think that's the thing a lot of the kind of macho guys don't get.

Host: Yes. Yeah. I mean, you really. You elevate your entire life. Once you can get in touch with all aspects of yourself and, you know, the bedroom part of it, when you're saying, you know, the performance anxiety and things like that, you know, that takes me back to the porn part where porn isn't real. They can push pause. They can get hard again. They can. Most of them use injections like we give to guys who have terrible ed. They don't have ed, but they use it because this isn't their partner. There is no emotional connection. There's directors and people around them telling them what to do and how hard to do it, and that's not sexy. And so you're watching a clip of this guy banging this girl out for 45 minutes. They probably stopped five times in there because he needed to catch his breath and he needed to get hard again. And he, you know, like, it's not real, you know, and so my son is a 17 and his buddies are over all the time. And this is stuff I talk to them about, because I don't want them thinking that that is reality and that then they're going to go to these other young girls and like think about having sex or doing whatever and thinking they need to have these long sessions.

Jason Lange: Like no, yeah, totally.

Host: There's a time and place for a 45 minute session, but it's not all the time.

Jason Lange: Exactly. And it's such a, again, such a relief for guys in learning that there's so much more to sexuality and is, you know what I tend to work with a lot of my guys around is ultimately at least in my relationship and the men I work with. The sweet spot is when our sexual connection becomes a tool to express the connection we're feeling with the person. Right. So it's a, it's like an artistic platform to express our connection and when we do that, it's so different rather than this kind of outcome based thing that really does trip up so many guys and has so many roots in the porn and causes so much shame and then the masturbation and just there's like a whole thing that happens to the male nervous system, right. That gets to start to unwind when, when we learn porn's not real. When we can talk to other men about all of this stuff, including our emotions and we learn, oh, okay, I'm not a freak, I'm not alone. Yeah, even the men I think have it all together. Guess what? They don't have it all together. They have their own challenges. You just don't get to see them. But we can go under the surface of that and then it really starts to relax things and then, you know, the last thing I'll kind of share on this chain is woven into this, is this particularly for a lot of the kind of nice guys I work is reframing this idea that you're sexuality as a man is not a bad thing. It doesn't have to be held in shame. Male sexuality can be a beautiful, sacred, generative thing. It's what we do with it. It's. There's nothing wrong with it, Right. It's literally part of what drives the creation of life in the universe. Just like, you know, the feminine version. And that's such a shift for, for guys. One of the simple things I work with a lot of men around, I'm like, I personally, you know, there may be people out there, but like, I've personally never met someone who didn't want to know their intimate partner was radically attracted to them physically. Right. Like your partner wants to know. You find them hot and get turned on by them in your body and that you have that desire and that shift for guys is, is, is such a huge one when, when I can get it to land of yeah, that that doesn't mean you're creepy or a pervert or you just want sex. There's so much more to it. And I think, you know, it's another thing I hear from so many guys that is maybe pops a lot of the misconception, particularly guys in long term marriage is they don't just want sex. I've heard from, you know, probably at this point, 40 or 50 men over the years who the most painful thing for them is when their long term partner just wants them to get it over with. Like just, you know, just, just do whatever you need to do. Like and her body's available but her heart isn't. That is so painful for so many men. You know, just for any women out there who maybe have this misconception, there are many, many men who it's not just about the sex. They do want to feel the connection. Sometimes they don't know how to talk about that. And sometimes if they haven't been given the tools or learned how to express and connect and feel to them, these two things get conflated. That the connection and sex are the same thing. When like I said, it's ultimately the sex becomes a way to express the connection. And when they're not feeling that it's really painful for men. There's some men who absolutely are just out there for the sex, but there's plenty that aren't and that it's very painful when that emotional connection isn't there.

Host: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's such an important thing to put out there and you know that your partner has a big thing to do with that too. So it's our responsibility to make you feel safe. And when you do make an advance and I'm totally not in the mood, number one, I need to evaluate myself and say, am I not in the mood because I'm really not in the mood or am I just not in the mood yet? And I could be.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: So good, you know, responsive desire. Or is it, you know, can I say no, but can we still cuddle? Can I still give him something even if I'm truly not in the mood? Maybe I really don't feel well that day. Maybe I'm starting my period and I'm all crampy and whatever.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: But what can I give him so that he doesn't feel rejected completely? Because I've had guys who get to the point where they don't touch their wife at all because every time they do, she flinches like she's gonna have to have sex. And it's like, well, we don't have to have sex just because we're touching. We can do other things. It goes back to the there's a pleasure in other ways. It doesn't have to be pnv, you know, you can do other things to get that pleasure and that connection with each other.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Teaching men how to have that conversation, it's one I've had to have with my wife of like, hey, just so you know, sometimes when I reach for you, it doesn't mean, yeah, we have to have sex. Like it's okay for us just to cuddle.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Or connect. And again, when men realize that, oh my God, touch is available to me and in itself is co regulating even when it's doesn't lead to sex. It's such a huge game changer.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And sometimes it can be nice just to tell your partner, like, hey, we don't have to have sex right now. But I want to connect, you know, I want to connect.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And it just opens up so much space. And paradoxically, oftentimes once you end up connecting like that, eroticism wind up flowing.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Maybe not that moment, but later in the day it starts to kind of create the connection channel. And it is just reprogramming so much for men that again, the more we take care of our physical and emotional health, the easier it is for us to thrive in our, in our sexual health. And getting connected to other men is just. I've been shocked how much it improves intimate relationships.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: You know, I'll also say one of the great things about men's groups, and I've experienced this many times, I must admit, is come to come to a circle with my guys and I'm all charged up about something in my relationship. And you know, my wife, da da da da da, and I kind of share the story. And they're like, you know, it actually kind of sounds like it's more you than her. And I'm like, what? And then they're like, yeah, no, da da. And it's like, get kind of caught. And then there's like, wow, you're totally right. I have a part to play in this I haven't been acknowledging. And it's so funny because then instead of going home and having a fight, I get to go home and connect with my partner in a way. And that's one of the big ways I've seen it shift relationships where we're forced to take responsibility for our side of things, which doesn't mean it's always our fault. But, you know, every relationship has two people in it.

Host: Right. And I think that's such a great thing that guys do for each other that women don't do as well. We are better at just cheerleading our friend and being like, yeah, you're right, him. Like, you know, whatever. And guys, they'll call each other out on their. And it's really nice. And I do have some female friends where we'll be like, excuse me, you're being a. Like, let's tone that down. Like, let's, you know, whatever. But, yeah, I think men are better at calling each other out on stuff and not getting upset about it. Right. So, like, if one of my friends calls me out on something, I'm emotionally going to react first versus intellectually be like, oh, maybe I am being wrong. Maybe I did contribute to that. I. My thing is, like, why are you telling me I contributed to that? Like, why are you calling me out? You know? And so I think men are way better at that, just at baseline, than women. So I appreciate that so much when men can have that connection and do that for each other, because we're not as good at that. We're much better at cheerleading and going hard.

Jason Lange: Yeah. For a lot of guys, you know, it's actually one of the deepest types of intimacy we can experience with another man is when a man gives us loving feedback. I call it the spinach in the teeth moment.

Host: Okay?

Jason Lange: Like, hey, dude, are you aware you got spinach in your teeth? And you're like, what? Oh, my God, No, I didn't. And then there's this moment, though, of, well, well, what the hell? No one else told me, and I've been walking around all day, but you had enough love to actually tell me, make me a little uncomfortable because you care about me. And that creates, like, a deep level of trust and bonding that a lot of men, as I expose them to it, you know, whether it's with me or other groups, they realize they actually really want because it allows them to relax that, oh, my God, I don't have to be vigilant all the time. I have men that are watching me and will give me feedback if it feels like I'm drifting in my relationship with my kids or in work. And even that process, I think, to tie it back to the bedroom is so good for men because it's learning to just receive feedback and not get defensive or posturing or aggressive or as I used to say, you know, a challenge I had to work with in my marriage was I would lawyer up so my wife would give me some kind of feedback, and then I would become this lawyer and try to explain to her while her feeling was wrong. You just, oh, you didn't understand my intention. Doesn't help at all. Learning to get feedback from other men and not collapse in shame like, oh, my God, I'm broken. I'm not worth it. And not posture. Guess what? The more we do that with other men, the easier it is also to get feedback, even in terms of just intimacy, of, oh, hey, actually, I don't want to be touched like that today. Okay, great. So I'll adjust. It doesn't mean I'm a terrible lover and you never want to have sex with me again. Which, if we haven't done our work as men, that will totally trigger it. Used to for me, the whole shame thing of, oh, my God, my sexuality is wrong, how I want to have sex is wrong. I don't know my partner. Instead, it's just like, oh, that's just feedback. Okay. Right. It's just like I have to adjust right now and what worked yesterday does not work necessarily today. Right. That's just the way intimacy works. Even though we want it to always be the same and know the cheat code is men. Right. Just give me the manual.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: There's no manual. Right. You just have to get present and be open to feedback both from your men and from your partner. Partners.

Host: Yeah. So true. Yeah. How many of you can still spin off the Nintendo acbc, whatever thing, you know? Like, you guys really, like, Totally.

Jason Lange: When can you do up, up, down, down? I know that code.

Host: Yes. You guys want a code, but there's not always a code. Sometimes we gotta adjust. I love it. I love it.

Jason Lange: Not always a code. That's. Yeah, that's great.

Host: So tell everybody how they can work with you, how they can connect with you, because I have absolutely loved this conversation. I love what you do for men. So I want to definitely send people your way.

Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. Easiest way to keep up with me is at my website, Evolutionary Men. So it's not.com, it's.men. and on there, there's all kinds of. I have my own podcast, often frequent guest on other podcasts. And my main thing is I do one on one coaching with men, But I'm really passionate about getting men into men's groups and communities. I run men's groups around dating and relationships, around shadow work and emotional healing and just the experience of getting into a men's group. If you've ever like, what is that? What does that look like? There's lots of ways you can do it virtually with me, I do retreats, all that kind of stuff. And even if you don't work with me, I'm just very passionate about getting men into community because I think that's one of the really huge missing pieces in our culture right now that's creating all kinds of challenge for men. And so I'm very well networked. So I'll help you find something. If you're like, where do I start? Because that's a lot of guys just don't know where to start. You can just email me and we'll, we'll try to find something in your area or you can work with me, it really doesn't matter. But know that you don't have to figure out all this stuff alone. And if there's one medicine I've seen move the ball in men's life, it's just more connection to other guys. Just relaxes so much in our nervous systems as men. And lo and behold, we have better sex. You get into a men's group, you're a better sex. I know it's so people are like, what are you talking about? But I just see it time and time again.

Host: Yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing. Jason, thank you so much for being here. You have been a wealth of knowledge today. I really appreciate you and everybody. Thanks so much for listening and go have some fun between those sheets. Thank you for joining us and exploring sexual health topics here on between the Sheets. New episodes are available every Wednesday. Please subscribe and rate our podcast so we can reach more listeners. And don't forget to tell your friends, partners and anyone who will listen about between the Sheets Send any comments, questions or stories to Podcast between the sheets gmail.com it's all one word podcast between the sheetsmail.com thanks for listening and go have some fun between the Sheets.