Unlock Your Potential Through Men’s Groups with Jason Lange | The Men of the House Podcast

Host: Welcome to another episode of the Men of the House podcast, where we're over here exploring the unfiltered truths of fatherhood, self care, mental health, and just navigating the chaos of everyday life. Hope you enjoy the conversation. Hey, everyone. On this episode of the Men of the House podcast, we have Jason Lange with us, and we are going to talk about everything men today on the Men of the House podcast. We're going to start with discussing a little bit of his background and what exactly a men's work journey is and this paradigm of what a man should be and kind of where did it come from? And then we're also going to talk about what we're doing to shift this paradigm. What is a man's box? A man box. And then also we're going to talk about men's groups, why they're important, and how men's groups have changed Jason's life and perhaps those he works with for the better. So how are you doing today, Jason?

Jason Lange: I'm doing fantastic. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me, Richard.

Host: Awesome. Well, let's get started. So give me a little. Give the audience a little bit about your background and kind of what led you into starting a men's work journey.

Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. Unsurprisingly, it started because it was my own personal journey. So growing up, I'm a. I'm a white man from the Midwest to the United States, lower middle class, so had a lot of privilege in the sense my basic security needs were just met. Right. I lived in a very safe place, always had food on the table. But as I progressed and grew up and, you know, this only became clear in retrospect, what my family of origin was missing was emotional connection and physical connection. So there was. There's. We were just kind of like living in the same house, and there wasn't any safety in the sense of attunement and actually being present for a sense of interiority with each other. So point of that is, you know, my childhood mostly has good memories, but as I got into my adolescence and puberty hit and suddenly all these hormones are going through me, and I'm noticing myself attracted to women and seeing friends start to have interactions with them. I became very present to. My body would get really anxious when I was around girls that I was attracted to. I would, like, freeze up. I would kind of get clammy and I'd get really uncomfortable. And then it became clear that it wasn't even just women. It's like, I. I didn't really have physical contact. Like some of my friends, you know, kind of horse around. I, I never went there and it was pain around. Like, I don't understand why I can't like talk to a woman, talk to these girls that are around me without getting like, very disregulated. That started my journey really of like, wow, I feel uncomfortable in my body pretty much every day. I didn't really have the language for this back then, but was kind of this feeling of like h this doesn't feel. I don't feel good. I can feel depressed kind of. And it first took me kind of into philosophy and then therapy, and then it was in my mid-20s. I just so happened to be living in a part of the country where the, the work, you know, was present that I got into my first METS group and my life really started to change. And I've done lots of different healing work and modalities just for my own journey since then. And men's work, and men's groups in particular have been the most profoundly impactful in terms of actual sticky behavioral change. And one of the first things I got out of that experience was being connected to and being brought into the presence of men who had some more depth than me. Just that they were more present, they were more grounded, they were more connected to their bodies, to their hearts, to their sense of power, and absolutely to their sexuality even. And it was the first time in my nervous system I got an imprint of, oh, that's what I want to be when I grow up. Like whatever that guy is carrying in his presence, I want that. Like, that's how I want to be able to move through the world. And that just got me kind of hooked on the work and beginning a really deep journey of uncovering some pretty profound neglect that my nervous system experienced like in terms of physical tangibility that took me, you know, quite a long time to unwind. And initially for me, because the neglect I primarily felt was with my, with my mom, was with the feminine. That was the place that was the most anxious for me. I just was actually uncomfortable with it. My gateway in was working with men and learning to kind of become more emotionally available and even connect and just like hug another man. Nervous system started to co regulate and opened the gateway for me to finally, in kind of my mid to late 20s, come out of my shell and lose my virginity and start meeting women and having the types of experiences I was wanting to have real relationships.

Host: Now when you found this men's group, was it. Did you have a friend who was Interested in attending did. Was it back in the day when you looked through the back of a paper, an online ad, or how did you find it? How did you seek it out? Or, you know, did somebody introduce you to it and say, hey, you know, I got something maybe you might be interested in?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I got. I got. I will say I got pretty lucky here because, you know, the men's work movement in general didn't really start arguably till kind of late 80s, early 90s, and so it wasn't very present in the way it is starting to be now. And we didn't have online back then. But I just so happen. Well, not just so happened, but because of some of my passions and personal growth and just this feeling of, like, whatever's going on for me, I gotta heal. I. I eventually got myself to Boulder, Colorado, which is kind of a transformational hub, spiritual hub of a lot of different things. And so getting there, I just. I just met guys who were. They were just into growth, right? And transformation. And so one of them just happened to know a guy who had been in the men's work world and kind of got us pulled in. And then that guy started leading a men's group for us, and we're all like, yeah, let's do it. We were kind of friends already, but we wanted to go deeper. And we had knew these older men who were like, this is a great avenue for that. And then we got to experience sitting in circle with them and starting our own group together. So I got very lucky, I would argue, to get exposed in my 20s at a time where it was not nearly as popular, you know, Mankind Project was around back then, but that was about it. And if you didn't know what you were looking for, you weren't going to find it, you know, So I bumped in into it, and my life changed because of it.

Host: Yeah, it's been kind of interesting because I was actually, I think I had an interview a couple of days ago, and we were talking about anxiety and whether it's healing trauma or not. And I had made this comment because I had heard it on a different podcast, but while you were speaking, it kind of made me think of it in that, you know, there's people who have super, let's say, challenging upbringings. They don't maybe have the stability you did, and. And they end up with some of these emotional problems as it relates to being a man. But then you can have somebody who has a stable upbringing and they still find themselves out in the world with some of these same problems. Emotional problems, I guess you could say, as it relates to whether it's being connected to other men or being connected to themselves, their own personal feelings, vulnerabilities and whatnot to be open to share. And so regardless of what side of the tracks you're on, we still kind of find ourselves in the same situation. So I wanted to discuss what is the paradigm of what a man should be and where did that come from?

Jason Lange: Yeah, so this, this ties into, I would say some of the topics we'll get into around the man box too. So I might just kind of outline that here. But yeah, you know, what you're speaking towards is. So there's our individual experiences that shape us, what we got, what we didn't get when we're young. And you know, the truth is, even in optimal environments, it's pretty rarely the case that parents can do it perfectly.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: Even if they're trying. Right. There's just oftentimes, you know, I like to think of it in terms of like nutrients, like a well balanced diet. Sometimes there's just a few nutrients they don't know how to give or you didn't quite get enough of. And that changes the way you grow in the best of circumstances. And then the other circumstances are. Yeah, sometimes people go through extremely volatile childhoods. Right. I work with a lot of men who had way more intense experiences than I did. I mostly was just neglected. Right. Like.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: So there wasn't anything negative like being projected on me. I just wasn't having some basic safety cues sent to my body, in a sense. So there's that. But then there's this kind of cultural layer that all of us men experience. And you know, it's a little different from country to country and cultures around the world, but there's some similarities. I'm mostly going to be speaking to the one I know here. So I'm in the United States. Right. And so the idea of the man box is it's this kind of implicit cultural expectation series of check boxes that you have to check to be considered a man. And if you don't check those boxes, you're not a man. And what's really interesting about this is they've actually done some research, which is fascinating, where they polled a whole bunch of people, men and women, with like two simple questions. What marks the transition of a girl becoming a woman and what marks the transition of a boy becoming a man? Lo and behold. And this was across both genders, what they mostly found was when it came to women, we ascribed biological changes. She Starts her cycle, she develops her breasts, her actual body changes. So it's based on her biology with men. It was not based on biology. It was based on how were they showing up in the world, what are they achieving or doing. So you could be a man who is fully physically mature, but still be considered a boy, right? Like, oh, that guy's a boy. He's not a man yet. Right. And you can, you can kind of feel there's a layer of this in our culture. And, you know, right now there's a lot of talk about boys, you know, failure to launch and being stuck at home. But this all ties into the man box of. It's kind of a societal set of norms and conditions that you have to be this to be considered a man. So the expectations of, you know, what a man should be, they used to be kind of clear in a sense, you know, for. For some of our parents and generations past, you know, honestly, it was like, make money and provide for your family, right? If you're doing that, you're a man. What has started to change in the last decades and where a lot of men are feeling confused and lost is that is no longer sufficient. It is no longer enough to just show up, pay the bills, and take care of your family. In that way, the. The expectations have grown in a sense of what men are supposed to be. And one of the hard things for so many men I work with right now is in cultural conversations, there is so much talk about what we're not supposed to be. Toxic masculinity, right? Not supposed to be this, this and this. And many of us were raised by women, care about women. And so we've mostly been fed. Here's what you shouldn't do, here's what you shouldn't be, right? And then there's this kind of loose checkbox of. And never show weakness, always be tough, don't be vulnerable, work hard, be a lone wolf, like these other man box conditions that get layered on. And so suddenly a lot of men are like, I don't know, how do I win this game? Like, what is it to be a successful man or to be a. A positive masculine presence in the world right now? And that's kind of what we're tying into here is, you know, the, this work, these kinds of conversations start to bring consciousness to the man box so we can kind of blow it up a bit and start to help us get to. There's always going to be one, is kind of my argument. So we get to redefine it as rather than a box. Like, what's the foundation, as I like to say, like, what are the. The pillars, the elements that are the foundation of what makes a man really present and alive and engaged and vital in. In his world and his life?

Host: Yeah. Where's this shift coming from? Is it coming from, like, when you. When we notice the shift of, like, what it should be, what it shouldn't be, Toxic masculinity. It's no longer just about the man going to work and coming home and whatever. It's about, you know, fathers, husbands, being engaged and present and kind of that mixture of roles that you used to see strictly assigned to a female role, kind of when it was stay at home, mom, and now you're seeing kind of a blend. Is it coming from men? Is it coming from women? Is it just coming from part of the culture? Where is it coming from?

Jason Lange: Yes. In my world, I would argue this is coming from evolution. In a sense, it's cultural evolution. And. And this is part of the dance we're in, is that the women's liberation movement started earlier than the men's. You know, they were a little. They had a little less power for a longer amount of time. And that kind of started right. In the 50s, 60s in particular, really burst forth. So women were allowed to leave home and be an independent person in the world, creating their own meaning in work and labor and money and not just have to be mothers. Right. They were liberated from the biological role, in a sense, as they've done that. Right. What's useful in the sense of, like, what do I actually need done in a partner starts to change. Because if it's. Well, previously partly because of cultural conditioning and, you know, different things, women often needed men to be out earning the income so they could support the family. That all blew up. And that's awesome. I'm so for that. Let's just be super clear. That is a great development. But what it shifted then is it's if I don't. If I'm a woman, let's say, and I don't need you to provide for me financially. What. What. Why do I want to be around you? You know, in a sense. Yeah. And that's what's shifting here, where there is still a lot men and women can offer each other. And I mostly speak in kind of traditional hetero norms because that's what I tend to coach. Those are the men I know. But, you know, everything's breaking up everywhere. In a good way. It's getting more nuance. That's part of why These conversations are important, but so what, what's becoming, what's being asked of men is, is shifting. And you know, as women we're kind of going out into the world. Part of what's being asked for men is to open up their inner world of, hey, it's not enough for you to just go out and work. I need you to actually be present in the household and talk to your children and talk to me and have an inner world that you can relate to me. So I can feel close to you and you can feel close to me. And this ties then kind of right into the man box where it's a huge edge for men. Because we still, to this day, most men are pretty much trained out of our bodies, which includes in the work I do. Our emotions, our emotions start the sensations in our bodies. We're trained out of them for, from a young age because of the man box in a sense. Right? Stop crying. You should be too old for that. Get back up. Try again, harder. The educational system, the way it's set up, stay still. Young boys are not meant to stay still. Our bodies need kinetic energy. We learn, we explore, we move. But point being, we often get this message from school, from our parents of whatever's happening in your body, override and don't trust that.

Host: Yeah, not only that though, I, I'm sitting here thinking and you know, my relationship with my wife has been sort of traditional in a way. We've had these periods where sometimes I'm the sole provider and sometimes she has been and it just kind of has depended on where we were in life and career. And you know, at the moment I'm more of the entrepreneur, stay at home, flexibility, go pick up the daughter when she's sick, take her to appointments and whatnot. And my wife has the schedule where she has places she has to be. But what I find interesting is it works for us. I would say that we like it, enjoy it, but then there's still a little bit of underlying tension. I can tell that's probably programmed from even just what she's seen in that her mom was always a stay at home mom and her dad even still is the kind of, he's an entrepreneur, but he goes out and he's away most of the week because he works out of town a lot doing stuff. But just seeing that, that's how she's raised, that's the picture in her mind. And even though it works for us, there have been points in our relationship that that's kind of been a source of contention because that's what she knows, that's what she's grown up to see is a little girl to a woman. So yeah, it's interesting to think how you said it was kind of the natural evolution in that we need more but it's still going to take I think more cycles of even little girls like my 10 year old daughter to see men in that less traditional role of which my wife saw and sees her father in. You know, I, I can remember my daughter going, sometimes I spend more time with you daddy than I do mommy. Is that weird? And I go, not really. I go, it's just different. You know, we're, it's different times as we're evolved and continuously evolving like technology and, and so I definitely think that's an interesting point you made and I'm kind of curious how it's going to pan out into the future as, you know, my daughter's age, who's 10, as she sees her father in a less traditional go to work role, how it's going to change and continue to evolve. You know, what are the 10 year old boys, what kind of conversations are they going to be having when they're our age?

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. I think, I mean the way I would kind of frame this is it used to be an expectation, you have to. Right, so you were limited to the role. What's shifting now is we get to choose oh what works best for our family, our particular constellation. It's going to look different for every family and the variations of that are just going to keep increasing as the world and gender identities all start to shift even more and more. There's just going to be more configurations and we get to choose though what serves our family the best. What we're finding in there is it takes a certain amount of fluidity. Right. So I have a capacity to attune to my daughter in a way frankly my dad never had to me like I know how to actually get down to her level, be emotionally present with her, join her in her world, co regulate her. My dad didn't know how to do that with me. He wasn't taught that. He didn't get that from his dad. My wife is a badass, right? She can, yeah, she's an entrepreneur, she can run her own company, she can go out, she can hold structure. We both have these capacities now that we can choose and flex and flow back and forth into and I think that's, you know, what you're creating in your relationship is what's important. But what, you know, the key thing There is. There's an element of we get to choose. This we don't have. Just because you're the mom doesn't mean you have to be the one staying at home. You know, women have kind of a. A woman box too, in a sense. And that's part of what we're breaking up and saying. You know, some of the attributes in those boxes are positive qualities, but that there's a big difference between you have to. And you get to choose to. And I think part of what we're seeing, particularly on the side of us men, is an ability to engage in the outer world and have an active and alive inner world is part of what's being asked for of us.

Host: But, you know, I think too, it's like they're still going to have to be. There's still going to be after. There has to be a shift from men in that community and how even what we're talking about currently is to be viewed and how it's going to change and how it's going to progress. Because I can tell you right now, even. Even as progressive as we are, there are people, I'm sure, people in my family that go, you're the man. Why aren't you going to work? Why aren't you away from home all day? Why are you the one picking up your daughter and taking her and doing this and doing her homework and, you know, laying down with her? I'm more like the. The feminine energy when it comes to nighttime and taking care of that, which is okay, and I'm perfectly happy with it. But, you know, there's still a sense of kind of that whole thing we get as young men of dust it off, don't cry, suck it up. It's still. There's. People my age would be like, why are you. You know, it can be like, you're such a pussy for staying at home. Why don't you totally get a job and go to work instead of doing this and doing that? But, you know, the thing is, is what I come to realize, especially after being laid off from a corporate job, was what it's allowed and open me up to in terms of being able to spend that time with my daughter, but also making me a better father and husband because I almost, through that process and having the time, had to really learn to develop some of these skills that I was lacking in terms of openness, in terms of maybe being present. Because before that I was essentially in that more traditional role. My wife didn't work and I went to a corporate job. Every day and sometimes six days, seven days, you know, and I came home and we had that kind of traditional role. But you know, I would say I'm way happier in the non traditional role. Even though it was kind of forced upon us and now it's been chosen. I feel a lot more fulfilled and I feel like the relationship I have both with my wife and my daughter is a little deeper due to it. Now. I don't know if that's, it's partially personal work from having to out of necessity. We have to give credit a little bit to the movement of this shift of this allowance of people like yourself and like myself having these conversations and letting other men know, hey, there's a new norm, kind of. And that norm is going to shift too. So be open, be ready to pivot, but mostly be ready to be open to what it means to be a. Be a man. I guess you could say I, I love.

Jason Lange: And let me be clear, you know, I have nothing against the traditional arrangement. If that's what works for a family and what they choose. Right. What we're, what we're pointing to here is there's choice involved instead of it just being. This is the only configuration. It's. No, actually sometimes there's other configurations that create more love and abundance in a family. So let's move towards that. Right. And a lot of, you know, men, in a sense it's like, well, how do you know you wouldn't enjoy that more? Right. Some men have just literally never tried it. And I work, I've worked with another enough men to tell you, like there are plenty examples of men who had fathers who were out working all day and often all weekend to provide. And what they really needed was connection and presence from their father in their life, in their actual day to day life. You know, like in, in a way I experience too. So there is more being asked for here. You know, even in the traditional configuration, I think men are, we're being asked to show up more in the family and that, yeah, we get to kind of burst this stuff open to, to have these dialogues about, yeah, what do you actually want to create? And you know, the research shows, you know, what kids really mostly need is connection and safety. They just need a place where they feel safe and they need to feel connected. And if you can get that right as parents, you, you've done a lot of the heavy lifting for your kid and their well being moving forward.

Host: I was thinking as you were speaking that if you do men's coaching, men's groups are the men you're working with, are they going home and relaying this, having these discussions with their spouses, their significant others, or do you ever have the opportunity? Are women kind of getting some of this on their end? Do you work with like co coaching with women's groups to where they're kind of hearing or seeing the same information and understanding what men are going through?

Host: So it's interesting. It's funny, when you said that, I go it, they're okay with them joining a men's group because it's not the same as meeting the fellas down at the bar for a few drinks. So leads me to my question for the audience and especially since we have a lot of female listeners on here. What is a men's group and why are they important?

Jason Lange: Yeah, this is. It's such a great question. And I'm going to preface it with they can be a lot of things. So, you know, these days, people often talk about something like meditation. And it turns out you study meditation. There's lots of types of meditation.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: Same thing with men's group. There can be different kinds of groups for different purposes. But what's coming to me right now in this interview is oftentimes when men gather, we gather there. There's two things happening. We gather one, to relate via what I call triangulation. So me and you put our attention on a third thing. Sporting game, an activity, drinking. Right. So we're bonding by having our attention over here on something else, which doesn't necessarily create the most intimacy between us. The other thing I'll add to that, and this is not always the case, so I'm just going to say this is a generalization. Often times men will gather to become less conscious. They actually want to forget about the pains of their life, to get lost in a sporting game or to drink themselves away from whatever they're feeling. And they're right. Whatever it is, it's often to actually become less conscious is what, you know, this is. I've never quite phrased it this way before. A men's group is about gathering to become more conscious, to actually slow down, put our intention on each other, including our inner worlds, and share what's going on for you, what's working, what's not working, and where do you feel like you want to be growing towards. And then what's in the way? It's cut. It's very simple in that sense. And there's, you know, so many different ways we can orient around that in terms of the specifics of group. But it's about slowing down and becoming more conscious about our life simultaneously with that. This is the huge edge for a Lot of men, Richard. It's actually connecting to the feelings related to all of that. Then to actually start to feel what's happening in our life that's uncomfortable or whether that's grief, anger, rage, disgust, fear, even joy. For a lot of men, like, wait, I'm allowed to, I'm actually allowed to feel good and celebrate this amazing thing I did. That's a huge edge for so many guys. So men's group is about coming together in conscious connection to get clearer about kind of what's the direction of our lives and what's most important to us in, in a big way to, as I say, support each other when we're under resourced or down and also to hold each other accountable for the things we care the most about. Right. The things we actually want to be moving towards or changing in our lives. Many men, you know, it always surprises me are actually really desperate to have other men call them forward. You know, that's kind of how we, it's the lingo we use in the men's work world. Instead of calling out like you're such a dick, you're doing this thing, it's, hey, man, I know you really love your wife and it just sounds like you are not showing up for her in the way you want to be. Like, what needs to change, what's going on? And it's like calling a man forward into the, you know, his full self in a sense is a big part of what we get to do in group with each other. So it, you know, it does a lot of things. It makes us more conscious, we feel deeper, we get clarity about our life and it helps us feel oftentimes the things we don't want to feel and then actually get more connected to other men in the process.

Jason Lange: Sure, yeah, I would. Man, I've gotten so much out of it. Community, connection, direction are just some of the first words that come out. So, you know, in a pretty amazing way. Some, many men I worked with actually were quite impacted by the pandemic and, you know, back in 2020, 2021, the isolation, for all the reasons you were talking about, like there are more pressures kind of that. I think men are particularly susceptible now to disconnection and isolation, social isolation, and the numbers support it. Like the number of men who have, you know, five or more close friends has, like plummeted in the last 20 years. Like, it's a big deal. I was kind of, in a way, inoculated against that. I had my men's group here in LA that we would meet in the backyard every other week. You know, for a while we didn't know what was going on. So we did zoom and then we did masks in backyard and. But I was still seeing men I deeply cared about every other week when continuity. So it wasn't that big a deal for me in a sense. Like, I still felt connection. So that connection, you know, started before that and will continue after. I have personally, I've switched careers because of my men's group. I have moved across the country because of my Men's group. I have left relationships because of my men's group. I've had the courage to become a father because of my men's group. I have had to do pieces of work on myself and become clear about ways I was showing up in my life that were contributing to things in my relationship or in my finances that I was not happy about. That I had reflected to me that forced me to really take a hard look at myself and have to take some responsibility for. Well, if I keep doing this, I'm going to keep getting the same results here. So I need to make some shifts. So it has radically changed my life. And you know, even deeper than that, I would say, is it's where I developed the capacity for myself not having had this really growing up, growing up of being able to slow down and identify what I was feeling in my body and emotionally and then express. That sounds very simple. But actually having the capacity to wow. I notice I'm feeling very angry right now and I'm actually a little bit pissed because yesterday X, Y or Z happened. And I feel like, you know, that really hurt me that you said you were going to do something and you didn't. I couldn't have said any of that. You know, pre men's group, I was just. People would ask me, what do you, you know, what are you feeling? I don't know. I'm okay, you know, that was fine. That was. Yeah, that was basically the. The range I had there was, I don't feel good or I feel okay. But developing this interior. They actually call this interoception. Right. There's perception, which is your awareness of what's outside of you. Tarot ception is your ability to identify what's going on. And I would even argue, speak it inside of you. And that capacity has gone through the roof for me. And I just got much more comfortable accessing and feeling my emotions, sharing them, being forthright with what was challenging in my life. Asking for help, that's a hard one. This was like a game changer of just, wow, sometimes I need help. And now I know how to ask for it. And I have no problem asking for it now. Like, hey, I need help with this. I can't do it alone. Who's got my back, right? Like versus pre men's group. You know, if I was stuck on something and many men do this, I would kind of silently struggle and stubbornly try to figure it out, sometimes for days, weeks or months. And now I've learned this. Oh, sometimes I can ask for help. And it'll take 30 seconds if I ask the right person. Right. Save myself. I know so much time and stress and it continues to change me as a father and as a husband and as I continue to grow. I, I, yeah, I facilitate men's groups now, but I'm just as involved in my own peer groups. I, I, I don't teach men to do anything I'm not doing myself. Like I am plugged in to older, wiser and different men. I have coaches and therapists and men's groups that I participate in that are reflecting to me what they see and how I'm showing up in the world. And that's really valuable because I have a story about myself. And one of the great powers of men's group that really changed my life here is other people can often see what's going on for us before we can, you know, how we're actually showing up and learning to not get defensive against that but actually be open to that. Feedback has been very valuable for me. And then the other thing I'll just share related to that is the, the kind of flip side. The other beautiful thing I see in groups is, as I say, it's often our own self identity. Our image of ourself is the last thing to kind of get updated in our body mind. So we may actually be showing up differently in the world or our relationship or our behaviors, but our voice, our inner critic, our perception of ourself can often still be stuck in the past. I'm still so blah blah, blah blah blah blah. Guys in group will often see that way before we do of like no, you're, you're really showing up differently. Like you are way more present now or you handled that conflict much better now. They can reflect that in a way that oftentimes we can't quite see in ourself yet. So it also, there's also like a celebratory energy I often see in groups of like no, like you're doing good work or you did this well. And a lot of men have never felt permission. Yes. They're always focused on where I'm not hitting the mark in life. You know, I'm a failure, I'm not winning, I'm losing. Men's groups and other people can often also help us point to actually no, you're doing great here. I see it. Can you see it? And we're like actually I can. Oh, okay.

Host: I say all the time that people, we don't see ourselves the way others see us. And because we're, we're so used to that negative self talk, our own inner dialogue, that it's almost like we don't give ourselves permission. So it makes sense that that's the last thing to update. But you know, I've especially interviewed people that, whether it's I enjoy their music, they're great musicians and they're like, oh, I'm nobody or I'm just a guy. And it's like, well, kind of. But you know, you got to remember, you know, I see you, I've seen all the good that you've done. Even though you may not see it, you may not believe it because you're wrapped up in other things, the audience sees it, you know, and so I can definitely see that benefit, how that could be beneficial. What if there's any men out there listening that are looking to join a men's group? How do they go about it? What do they look for? Is there something they should be looking for, like for an ideal men's group? Are there? I don't want to say sham bad. I mean, I guess as long as you're doing something, but as long as you're not like, you know, you should be on the lookout for you're going to show up at the bar every Wednesday and have shots and beers. That's not what I'm talking about. Is there anything to look out for on don't join this kind?

Jason Lange: Sure. I mean I'm. I'm particularly a fan of peer led groups. I mean my first groups actually did have a facilitator and there's something to that structure and depth that I think can be important in the life cycle of a group. But I'm also just a huge proponent of. If you want more depth in your life, intuitively you probably know two or three men in your life who you get a sense. We could probably go deeper. Maybe we have a couple times on accident and you make the invitation. Right. Hey, would you want to start gathering once a month, twice a month to just talk about life? Right. Like so I'm a huge fan of men, kind of creating them in the community you're part of. But that said, you know, we're in a whole new world now. It is part of what's so exciting now. There's a lot of virtual movement now. There's all kinds of virtual groups you can join. If you don't have men in your locality. There are more and more local geographical groups around that you can, you know. Meetup.com eventbrite just doing some googling in your area. You know, men's groups will start to surface some things and you, you know, you want to try it. Like the honest truth is you just want to try it and see like, how do I feel when I'm in this room? Do I feel good? Do I feel safe? Do I feel connected? You may get into rooms where you don't right and, and trust yourself with, with that is what I would say. And some men really like the in person experience, you know, particularly kind of post pandemic and zoom fatigue for a lot of people. They're like, I just want to be in the room with other men. And Mankind Project is probably the biggest kind of global presence where they often have geographical based stuff. So you could definitely check that out. Other men actually prefer virtual because, you know, sometimes we're fathers and we have intense schedules and it's hard to get anywhere and it's nice to be able to just slot in from home or. Many men I work with, truth be told, Richard, part of why they're so hesitant to engage even in men's work is because they experience the downsides of kind of unconscious male community through bullying, through kind of locker room culture growing up. And they're like, I don't wanna, I don't feel safe with men. Men, men hurt me, you know, frankly. And sometimes the virtual can be a really nice gateway to that because it's like you're in your own home, you're in your own space. There's like a level of safety there that you can, yeah, that you can then like start to kind of foster some good connections with men and then maybe kind of ease your way into geographical connection. You know, there's, there's year long programs, there's drop in stuff. There's no one perfect solution here. But you know, I would first ask, you know, each man, like, what are you wanting in your life? You know, what are you wanting more of? If connection and community and a little support are, you know, are like, hey, I feel like I could use that. It's a good signal that okay, maybe I should start looking out for some men to start finding some groups and then just try some stuff out. Right? It's always okay to, you don't have to fully commit from the get go of just like, yeah, I'd love to sit in once or twice with your group, see how it works to try it out. And again, I'm a big fan of know, trusting our bodily intuition. So when we're in a space like, yeah, this feels good, this feels right, I want to Try it and then to just go for that. You know, there are also just so many different kinds of groups. There's more account accountability based groups, you know, for like, entrepreneurial men. There's presence or practice based groups for guys who just want to get together and do physical embodiment practices. There's more emotionally oriented groups and then there's groups which are just kind of the catch all for all the above. So there's also, you know, that's why it's useful for each man to kind of just start to feel into like, what do I feel like my edge in life is? It might just be sitting in circle with men. Like, honestly, right. That is the edge for a lot of guys right there and that. And then just lean towards that and start exploring. You know, I'm certainly a resource for men if they ever want to reach out, like I can. I like to guide men towards men's groups because it is still pretty new. Like, you're right. Like, just in the last probably two years, the wave has started to crest and it's starting to hit right now because there is so much need and so many men are so isolated and feel so lost and alone and are desperate for just some genuine community. And there is something unique, you know, there's a unique texture to men who were raised, you know, as men in. In with certain cultural expectations to just being around other people who also had that shared reality. There's just something that relaxes I've seen in guys when it's just like, oh, my God, you get it, right? You just get it. And then so, you know, that often itself is so nourishing for so many men I work with.

Host: Yeah, it's just one of those things. It's kind of like when I describe, like a. A good podcast interview is when I leave this desk and this mic and I feel energized and good. Then best success, you know, And I can imagine, you know, leaving a men's group and whether you've had some sort of introspection that of something maybe you could change or do better or just, you know, I describe it as kind of like what the purpose of the podcast is, just so other men know or other people. You're not alone, you're not crazy. You didn't make this up in your brain. We're, you know, we're all fundamentally similar at some level. You know, you said you had mentioned that you're often a resource for guiding people towards men's groups. And you know, when you first started discussing it, you Said, hey, even if there's a couple of guys and there's not a men's group in your area and you just want to go deeper with a couple guys and start trying, this is, are you someone that could guide someone to say, hey, maybe I want to start a men's group. I got two friends together. Is there a structure? Are there a few questions we should be asking ourselves? Is that something you do, you're able to do? Or there are other resources out there online that could guide men towards questions to ask or how it should be structured or what you should be aiming for. Like, if you're going to spend an hour together, what should you be aiming to accomplish and walk out of there? Not just to bullshit for an hour, but to get something from it?

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah, there's, there are definitely resources out there. I'm, I'm developing some of my own right now for guys who really want to take that on. And in the meantime I'm just available for consulting. So, you know, just, you should literally just write me an email if you're interested. Like, hey, what's some ways to go here? But I mean just a very basic skeletal structure is pick a time and place, gather, do some kind of meditation or embodiment practice to actually drop into the moment and mark, you're kind of coming into this place, do some short check ins, which are just, you know, five minutes each man to kind of share what he's coming into the group feeling in his body, in his life. And then you can have, you know, an hour, hour and a half after that where two, three, maybe four men can ask for attention from the group to share about somewhere they're in pain or struggling or need some support or guidance or reflection or sometimes honestly, just to be heard.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Oh my God. This I, I've had no one to tell this and here's what's been going on. And then men can offer you feedback, you know, on what they're hearing or what they're seeing. And just that alone is a paradigm shift for how most men relate. And then you kind of bring it to a close and. But there are more structured kind of programs out there. I'm developing one right now for like, how do you really go deep fast and what are some of the skills you need? But you know, my. Wasn't my first group, but my second group here in la, it was just me. I knew I, I had moved. I missed it. I was like, okay, found two guys who were in. And I was like, here's what I Want to do what dates and times can we meet? Okay, we can meet this date and time we're going to start meeting. And then as we started meeting, we put out an invitation to other people. And you know, some men came, tried, it wasn't the right fit for them, but the ones who stayed, stayed, you know. And I had that group for 14 years and it just started with that commitment to let's go deeper. I need help. I can't do my life alone. Right. And I, I argue pretty strongly, men grow faster together.

Host: Yeah, you want to go together. It's crazy that man, you're a real early adopter. 14 years. That is so wild. I, if you'd asked me if I'd even, you know, I never really even heard of men's groups until like maybe the past year. In all honesty, it's wild. So wild. Well, where can people find you if they, if somebody wants to reach out to you? Where do, where do people find you?

Jason Lange: Yeah, so best way to keep up with me and everything I'm up to [email protected]. so it's not dot com, it's dot men. And on there you can find some of the activities programs I run, podcasts, I do things I've written and there's contact form if you just have any questions. You know, I'll do my best to point you towards something that might get you resourced in your life.

Host: Thanks for coming on today. I really enjoyed this conversation. I think it's definitely opened my eyes to what men's groups are. I think it's a great explanation and why it's important. Do you have any questions for me or is there anything you would want to leave the audience with?

Jason Lange: You know, I will just speak to because I know part of your audience are parents and fathers. I, I, I've seen this in myself and in many men I've worked with. Now, one of the greatest gifts, one of the greatest gifts you can give to your children is to take on the task of your inner work, your healing, learning to co regulate yourself, taking responsibility for the emotional wounding you received as a, as a kid, honestly, we all have something. And learning to ask for help, modeling that for your kids and showing them that we all have to grow, I think is one of the greatest gifts you can give to yourself. So if you, if you're, you know, a father or a mother, whether it's a men's group or women's group or co ed group like, or whatever internal work is calling to you right now, like to step forward into that is an incredible thing you can offer your. Your kids, no matter what age they are. That's the wild thing.

Host: Oh, I know. I can tell you. Just my own inner work is definitely. It's improved the way I show up for my daughter. And I guess I would consider myself the thermostat if kind of in the house in general. However I am, is how everybody else acts in the house in general. And even if they get out of line for a moment, as long as I can remain steady and remain the thermostat, they eventually reset and they're okay. And so it's been wild. But, you know, I've had to figure this out the hard way. I didn't. I didn't know about men's groups the past three years. I wish I had. But, you know, the. The great thing about this podcasting venture is it's really opened my world to many different things, many different people. And, you know, like I said, things out there that I didn't really even know existed. And that's why I do. This is not just for myself, but to be that conduit to the rest of the world, the listeners, and to let other people know they're not alone and where they can find help, be it for themselves and. Or for others, and just, you know, try to make this world a better place. And joining a men's group is definitely a start. Any way a man can improve himself, his emotional intelligence is only going to benefit the world, so.

Jason Lange: Couldn't have said it better myself.

Host: Thank you, Richard. Thanks for coming.

Jason Lange: Awesome. Have a great day, man.

Host: All right, man. I appreciate it. Well, you've made it this far, which means you're probably a super fan of the show. That's amazing, and I really appreciate your support. To keep up with all the latest updates, make sure you're following the show on social media. You can find all the links in the bio, and if you've been enjoying the content, I'd be so grateful if you could take a minute and leave a review. It really helps us reach more people who might love the show as much as you do. Also, don't forget to tell one friend about the show as well. Word of mouth is the best way to help us grow. And if you're feeling extra generous, check out the link tree in the bio where you can find a link to donate. Every little bit helps me keep creating the content you love. Thanks for being an awesome superfan. I couldn't do it without you.

Jason Lange: Asteroid of fear.