Here's the paradox that sits at the heart of masculinity today: men who desperately want to avoid being toxic often end up creating their own form of relational toxicity. I just got off a fantastic conversation with Sharon Pope on her podcast, Respected & Connected, where we explored this tension between men trying to be "good" and the unintended consequences of that pursuit. We dove deep into the nice guy phenomenon and what it actually means for men and relationships.
Sharon asked me to break down what a nice guy really is, and we got into how this pattern emerges as a reaction to toxic masculinity. These guys aren't trying to manipulate anyone, they're genuinely trying not to be jerks. But here's what happens: they end up prioritizing everyone else's needs above their own, operating through covert contracts instead of being direct about what they want, and constantly waiting for permission instead of taking initiative. The result? They become hard to trust because you never really know where they stand.
We talked about how nice guys often attract either very powerful women who end up having to lead everything, or sometimes volatile partners because they're the only guys who'll stay in dysfunctional dynamics long enough. They struggle to set boundaries, struggle to own their sexuality, and often get stuck in that endless cycle of pleasant first dates that go nowhere.
What really lit up the conversation was talking about how men can integrate their power with their heart. You don't have to choose between being connected and sensitive or being in your power and desires. You can hold both. I shared how transformative it is when men finally witness other men who can be deeply in their grief or fully in their anger without being collapsed or dangerous. That transmission, that felt experience of seeing it's possible, changes everything.
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Host: Yeah, I love that. I love that. And the. The question that came up for me as you're sharing that is because. Because I. I even admitted this to you when we met, before we started on this episode was it seems like when men are looking for help in this area, it can go in some kind of different ways. It can go in the, you know, what I would call maybe more in the toxic masculinity type way of alpha male kind of stuff, or. It sounds like you found somatic work and. And I can't remember what the other word was that you used to describe it, that men's community. It sounds like you found a really healthy, fulfilling, uplifting place to land. Did you. Were you also introduced to some of that other work along your journey as well?
Jason Lange: I never was really drawn. And, you know, in some sense, maybe it wasn't there quite as much. The more toxic stuff, which definitely is present now. I think what did. What was emerging in my mid-20s, you know, which is a loaded thing, was that was when the whole pickup world exploded. So this idea of pickup artistry and then learning how to attract women, and there was a lot of darkness and toxicity to much of that, and simultaneously, for many men, that was their first exposure to any kind of idea of, oh, I can work on myself and I'll show up differently in the world. So it, it was a gateway, in a sense, for some people to positive men's work, but for many, you know, was more toxic. Um, so I, you know, I definitely studied a little bit of that in hopes of, like, kind of, you know, the, the fantasies, like hacking things. But really what it all ends up pointing back to is, like, how comfortable do you feel in your nervous system? If you don't feel comfortable in your nervous system, no one else can really feel comfortable around you to an extent. And so that then, you know, really was just pointing me to the deeper work I was already doing. But I, But I think that question and the prevalence these days, you know, a big part of, I think a big struggle that we can talk about is men don't really have many models of positive masculinity these days. So there is a lot of talk. Talk, and I would say rightly so, because there's plenty of historical evidence of toxic masculine, and there's plenty of it prevalent today. We're, we're told a lot what not to be these days, but there's not much modeling for. Well, well, then what is a healthy version of that? And in that vacuum, in that vacuum, I think is where a lot of people end up getting attracted to the more toxic masculine because there's somebody at least speaking to them.
Host: Right.
Jason Lange: And a lot of men just feel like, you know, like, it sounds a little crazy, but left behind, like, I don't. I don't know how to be in the world. I don't know what I'm supposed to do. And then there's no vision or modeling for them around that. So they just. They gravitate towards what they can find. But my hope in optimism is that as more positive role models and information get out there, that that's actually kind of the antidote to the toxic stuff. It's just once there's more information. Most men don't want to be jerks, in my experience.
Host: You. Yeah, yeah, I would.
Jason Lange: They don't.
Host: I would agree with that. And I think what you. What you're pointing to is so important, and I think it. It is what a lot of us are lacking in this whole narrative around what's wrong with the current state of affairs, what's wrong with that really dominant view of masculinity or that dominant model for masculinity is, well, what are we going to put in its place. Yeah, I think that's something that I think often we as women need to learn is how to, you know, how to reframe our complaints. All of the complaints we have of the men in our lives as well. What do you want from them? And we have to do some of that exploration ourselves of what does, you know, what does a healthy relationship look like? What are we asking for instead of just complaining about what's not going right? So I think that's a really great point. So tell me a little bit more about this nice guy phenomenon. What. What does that look like? And kind of, how does that. How do men come into that?
Host: Oh, yeah, for sure. For sure. And I think kind of what you're describing is, I think what we have historically seen as like, like an accommodating woman, you know, and we're seeing that. It sounds like what you're saying, we're seeing that more and more with men.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: And it is, you know, as we were talking about this before, you were saying, like, it is an evolutionary step towards something better for men and women in relationships, but it's maybe just a little bit incomplete at this point.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: Like, we need to have room for Me and we in relationships, we can't be just emphasizing our own needs, but we can't also. It's. It's also kind of unsatisfying for both people and unhealthy to just be accommodating the other at our own expense.
Host: Oh, yeah. And I, I mean, I just. You just feel like it feels so aspirational, but also so grounding to be in a relationship where you get to choose to be together rather than that old model of domination and dependence. Yeah, but like you said, it does. It. It. I feel like it's. We're being called to. To be more conscious and more aware and more skilled and more mature in how we relate to each other so that we can have the capacity for that way of being.
Jason Lange: Yeah, exactly. But.
Host: Yeah. Well, this has been such a great conversation, Jason, as we're closing out today. What. What would you like. Where would you like people to find you if they're interested in learning more about the work that you're doing?
Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. Best place to keep up with me is at my website, evolutionary.men. so it's not.combut.men. and on there you can find. I've podcast of my own that covers a lot around nice guy syndrome. I have some writing I've done. I have all the programs and events and social media and all that kind of stuff, and just know that, you know, it's never too late to start. Like, you just always got to start somewhere. And the. The wonderful thing is, as nice guys in particular learn to just reconnect a few of these pieces that got left behind inside of them can be such incredibly powerful leaders in their families and their relationships in their workplaces. Because, you know, I mostly work with nice guys because it's a lot easier to connect a man who already has access to his heart, to his power than it is to take a man who only knows power and to open him into his heart. So I say nice guys really have the advantage that you're in a great spot, and the work to kind of integrate you to that next level is, is. It's not that it's easy, but it's so doable when you have the right training and system and support around you.
Host: Yeah. Well, thank you so much. We'll. We'll post that link in the show notes as we. As we share this. Thanks again for being on.
Jason Lange: Yeah, my pleasure. Sharon. Thanks for helping get the word out to all the men out there.
