The man who's trying hardest not to make her uncomfortable is often the one who makes her most uncomfortable. That's the paradox at the center of nice guy syndrome, and it's one I know from the inside.
I sat down with the host of The Dating Chit to get into something I work with constantly: the pattern where a man, in an attempt to make everyone around him feel okay, quietly abandons his own desires, needs, and direction. My friend and mentor Dr. Robert Glover named this in No More Mr. Nice Guy, and I see it all the time. These guys don't want to be abusers or jerks. They've seen what that does. So they overcorrect. And they end up getting the feedback: you're a really nice guy, but I'm just not feeling it.
We covered a lot in these 40 minutes. The false binary a lot of men are stuck in, where you're either the powerful guy who doesn't give a damn about people, or the sensitive guy who can't hold a direction. That binary is false, and walking out of it is a lot of the work. We got into what leadership actually looks like when it's not domination, and the dance metaphor felt right for that, right? Because the lead in tango isn't forcing the follow anywhere. He's giving direction while staying attuned to her body. That's the whole thing.
We also went into the man box, that pressure so many of us grew up under to be invulnerable, live from the neck up, never ask for help. And how that pattern follows us right into intimate relationships where a partner can feel us checked out, stuck in our heads, not really present. Embodiment, getting out of the head and into the body, is a central piece of this, and I shared a bit of my own story here, including where I started and what actually shifted for me.
And we talked about emotional leadership, which to me is the underrated piece. The difference it makes when a man stops waiting for his partner to bring up the hard conversations and starts creating that space himself.
What would it change for you if you brought that kind of leadership to one conversation you've been avoiding?
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Host (The Dating Chit): Hey, you. Welcome to the dating chit, a space designed to help you move beyond assumptions and guesswork so you can date and love with clarity and confidence. I'm your host, T. Today my guest is Jason Lange. Jason is a man's embodiment coach and a Certified no more Mr. Nice Guy Coach. He helps men drop in and wake up to deeper clarity in their life's purpose and and relationships. He believes every man should be in a man's group for the growth and support opportunities they provide. Jason joins me today to share his personal evolution within the world of man's work, exploring the vital roles that emotional connection, leadership, and vulnerability plays in modern relationships. He's here to give us the toolbox Men need to develop true confidence, authenticity, and a healthy sense of masculinity. In this conversation, we're diving deep into the path of transformation. The man box, the power couple, relational leadership, and the brotherhood. A quick note. This episode isn't just for the guys. To the women listening, this is a window into the unique challenges that men in your life are facing. Understanding these hurdles might just be the key to supporting and caring for them in a whole new way. Let's dive in. Hi, Jason, how are you?
Jason Lange: I'm doing great. Excited to be here with you.
Host (The Dating Chit): I'd like to dive right in. As I understand you have been men's coach and leading individual and couple therapy for over eight years, right?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I've been doing men's work, so to speak, since about a little over eight years. Actually since about 2017, 2018.
Host (The Dating Chit): I would love for you to share. How did you get into it? I know you must have personal story behind it.
Jason Lange: My journey into men's work and becoming, you know, a facilitator of men's work really started with my own personal journey of growth and transformation that really goes back to the beginning, in a sense. I was raised in the Midwest of the US Kind of lower middle class white guy, had a lot of privilege. All my basic security needs met. But as I entered adolescence, I started to be confronted with the fact that I was raised a little differently in my family than a lot of people were. And where this first started to show up was around women. And I was going through puberty and I was really uncomfortable around them. I would get really anxious in my body, sweaty, didn't know how to talk to them, didn't know how to approach them. And simultaneously started building some male relationships in my life and realized, wow, these guys, they relate to each other differently than I do. They horseplay. They actually kind of wrestle each other. There's like affection and long and short of it. This started to uncover for me that in the family I was raised in, they were doing the best they could, but there was no physical or emotional connection in my household growing up. So we didn't physically embrace or provide each other with comfort. And we never really talked really about anything about what was going on inside of us.
Host (The Dating Chit): I can really resonate with that because I grew up in China and, you know, Chinese culture and that's how it goes. We're not expressing love verbally and we don't really hug and that's not part of our culture. Yeah, so I know what you're saying.
Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. And so that really showed up particularly for me. I had. I had a little bit more connection with my dad growing up, but with my mom, it was kind of non existent. And I realized, wow, I couldn't even remember the last time she had physically held me by the time I was a teenager. Like I could. I didn't have any memories. Right. Doesn't mean she didn't carry me when she was a little baby. But it just wasn't part of our programming. And so what this culminated in is, you know, as I became a teenager and grew into adult man, I really struggled with relationships. I could not successfully date and didn't have my first kiss until college. Didn't lose my virginity into my mid-20s, which then carried a lot of shame with it itself of, oh, you know, a man is supposed to be able to X, Y and Z. And it got so painful because I saw the people around me starting to have relationships and have a type of connection and affection that I was longing for.
Host (The Dating Chit): You crave for that, huh?
Jason Lange: Right, yeah, exactly. And that really was what kicked off for me. A journey of growth and transformation, of okay, there's got to be a better way to be. I don't feel. I was often depressed and anxious and numb and coped with porn and food and all kinds of stuff. That didn't really help ultimately. But eventually I got on the path and, you know, did so many different things. Therapy, medicines, all kinds of stuff. And it was really two things.
Host (The Dating Chit): Something worked. You're happily married.
Jason Lange: Yeah, things changed. Exactly. But it was men's work, men's groups, and somatic therapy that really ended up changing the ball for me. And then in learning how to connect successfully and create the types of relationships I wanted, and eventually now my family with a beautiful wife. Turns out a lot of other guys struggled in the same way. And so it became clear to me, I could help because it was a journey I knew, right. I'm not the guy who from a young age dated tons of women, had lots of success, which some guys do, but there's a lot of guys who, like, I don't even know where to start, right. I try really hard and I can't get a second date or I can't even get a date to begin with. So my journey started supporting those guys a lot of times, often late bloomers or nice guys like me who haven't had a lot of experience but really have incredible hearts and really want to create an amazing relationship, just sometimes don't have the training or how to kind of get through the hump of those first couple of dates to really create connection and intimacy.
Host (The Dating Chit): Well, thank you for sharing that personal story. So, Jason, you're a certified so called, no more Mr. Nice Guy Coach. Tell us more about that.
Host (The Dating Chit): So it sounds like it's an issue of being balanced, right? Yes, a nice guy is great, but you know, also knowing what you want, what you need, and then you can nurture healthier relationship together.
Jason Lange: That's exactly it. And for a lot of guys there's this kind of artificial binary of. For many men, what they're modeled is either or. Either you're that kind of powerful, go get it guy who's often kind of a jerk, not very sensitive, or you're the very kind of safe, friendly, sensitive guy, but who doesn't have that kind of oomph, that power, that direction. And so the work of so many men these days is learned to embrace both.
Host (The Dating Chit): That will really benefit us women.
Jason Lange: Yeah, right. And women actually, they desire it. Right. They really want a man who can stand in his power but also isn't dominating. Yeah, he's not a jerk. Relational. Yeah, he's not a jerk. He's attuned, he cares and he can say what he wants and he can lead her, you know, in some big, in important ways. And that's a skill set a lot of men just don't have.
Host (The Dating Chit): I do want to touch more on that point. Men feeling lost and don't know how to lead and being confused with dominating versus leading. Would you share more about that?
Jason Lange: Absolutely. So when I kind of talk about dominating, I'm often talking more about that kind of old school thing, which is just I go for what I want. Regardless of what you want. Right. I'm going to make you do this or I'm going to do this. So it's often the kind of lower body, what you know, we say in men's work is like, it's a lot of balls. Right. It's a lot of that power that, ugh, I want this. But there's no heart, there's no attunement, there's no sensitivity that tends to be dominating. It's this way, it's my way or the highway. Right. And there's plenty of evidence about what that kind of masculinity does in the world. Leading in this new sense. What's so key about it is it requires both. It requires power, knowing what I want, being able to ask for it, name it. But it also requires attunement, an open and sensitive heart where what I'm doing is I'm sharing what I want, and I'm listening to you and attuning to you to get a sense of what you want and how can I lead us both closer to that. Right. And it's super clear we often, you know, have internalized this. One of the biggest places we see kind of lead and follow culture isn't just in partner dance. Right. Whether it's tango or salsa or swing. Yeah.
Host (The Dating Chit): I have a good example in tango.
Jason Lange: Right, Right. Someone has to lead.
Host (The Dating Chit): Yeah. I was learning tango with my ex, and I guess he wasn't much of dancer. He wasn't leading me, and so therefore we could not really dance properly. He has to lead. He has to like and guide me to direction where he wants to go. So I know where go. That's how tangle works, right? Yeah.
Jason Lange: It's beautiful example of the leadership we're talking about here. And what's important about it is if he doesn't give you enough leadership, you get lost. Right. Like, we moving this way. Are we moving? And it's clumsy and you step on each other's feet and it's not fun.
Host (The Dating Chit): Exactly.
Host (The Dating Chit): So you're saying no matter how much changes it has been for a woman from 50 years ago, to today, now that a woman has equality and we earn more. Still your point of being still, men should not be afraid to be the leader in the relationship.
Jason Lange: Yes. For men, if they can't at least demonstrate the capacity to lead in relationship, a lot of women won't trust them and won't want to be with them. Oftentimes most women want to know their partner can take the reins and and plan an adventure or create intimacy or guide the relationship in that same way they might guide a partner dance.
Host (The Dating Chit): Definitely. Yes. Yeah, totally agree. Yeah, we need more of that quality in man. You mentioned about man box. Yeah, I'd love to hear more about that. Is that also relate to men's work and the leadership of man?
Jason Lange: Definitely. What is challenging for so many men is there's this idea of literally they call it the man box. Right. And inside of the box are all these qualities and attributes, these checkboxes that if you don't check them, you're not considered a man. And the biggest one almost cross culturally is that to be a man means to be invulnerable, means to be tough, to not be weak, to never share emotionally, to not need help, to be totally self reliant. Right. You can start to feel that sounds a little extreme. It, it is extreme. And it's a huge pressure a lot of men are under.
Host (The Dating Chit): That's not human.
Jason Lange: It's not human at all. And it's challenging in that. There was this great research study that came out a couple years ago that I think really kind of named this. They asked both men and women two questions. What marks the transition from a girl to. To becoming a woman, from a boy to becoming a man in both men and women? For women, it's her physiological changes, her body changed, she has a cycle, she's rear children, she's a woman now. For men, the answer was not the same. For men or women, it wasn't based on how physically mature they were. It was based on their behavior and how they were showing up in their life and the ability. Yes. So how are they? So you could have a fully mature man in a, you know, adult body, but oh, he's failed to launch. He's a boy, right. He's not a man yet. He doesn't take responsibility for his life. And that's a version of the man box in a sense where it's about behavior. To be a man means certain types of behaviors. Where the man box becomes limiting is it teaches men this culture of going at it alone, trying to be tough and disconnecting from their bodies and emotions from a very young age.
Host (The Dating Chit): I see that disconnection a lot.
Jason Lange: Yeah. Right. It's one of the challenges, again, that men have then in dating because they get into a relationship and their partner's like, I don't feel you. What are you feeling? Right.
Host (The Dating Chit): They will avoid. I think a man have those kind of symptoms. They also shows being avoided.
Jason Lange: It gets very avoidant or addictive in the sense of. Right. Part of the challenge for so many of us guys is we're taught to be disembodied, to not be in our bodies. Emotions start as sensations in our bodies. So if we're not in our bodies, we're not going to be connected to what we're feeling. And if we're not connected to what we're feeling and we can't share it, you're not going to feel very connected to me, and I'm not going to have the capacity to feel very connected to you. I'm going to get uncomfortable. Right. If you are feeling sad or mad at me or scared. For a lot of men, an emotional woman is like, oh, my God, I got to fix this. I got to make her feel different.
Host (The Dating Chit): Yeah. We have to be able to let each other understand how we feel. What do we need? Right.
Jason Lange: Exactly.
Host (The Dating Chit): Otherwise we can't get through that.
Jason Lange: Totally. And so the man box is part of what limits men in their capacity to do that, to actually be in their bodies.
Host (The Dating Chit): Part of your work is to unbox the man box. Is that what you're trying to do?
Jason Lange: Yeah. To say that, you know, just like women were allowed to come out of the home and be in the world and have goals and individuality and agency, Part of the journey for men has been, well, we're allowed to go inside and have feelings and emotions and get scared and be vulnerable and totally reasonable.
Host (The Dating Chit): And I don't see that totally reasonable weak or, you know, being.
Jason Lange: Exactly right. That's the truth of it. So we're having to push back against that culture and show. Actually.
Host (The Dating Chit): Yeah.
Jason Lange: Men become more trustable.
Host (The Dating Chit): I want my partner to be able to show his vulnerability in front of me.
Jason Lange: Exactly right.
Host (The Dating Chit): That shows that I'm providing a safe space for him.
Jason Lange: Right.
Host (The Dating Chit): And that's what partner does.
Jason Lange: Yes, exactly.
Host (The Dating Chit): That's what a good relationship is.
Jason Lange: This is what a great relationship does. And that's where a lot of men get into relationships, but they haven't built the skills for how to do that. So you create a safe space, and you ask me, like, hey, how are you doing? And he's Like, I'm fine. And you're like, I don't think you're fine. And he's like, I know I am. And then, you know, that causes disconnection.
Host (The Dating Chit): Do you consider that is one of the most common challenges that men face today?
Jason Lange: Yeah. For a lot of guys from a young age, they are taught to live from the neck up, literally to be in their heads, not connected to their bodies, not connected to their feelings. So the process of bringing the body and the heart online is one of the most central challenges for guys to just learn to live from head to toe, so to speak. And it's a thing often women intuitively feel, right, wow, that guy, I can feel he's stuck up in his head versus, wow, this is a guy. I can feel head to toe. Right. You can feel when a man is fully embodying himself and if he's not embodying himself, it's often hard to trust him or feel connected to him or frankly feel turned on by him. Because if he's just stuck up in his head, it's usually not very attractive if a man's just sitting there thinking and ruminating. Right. It's not really where desire comes from. So for men to learn to get into their bodies is a huge shift and has massive payoffs, not just in intimacy, but in their health and well being and often even in their careers.
Host (The Dating Chit): Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely affects every aspect of one's life. When we were talking about leadership, it's also an aspect of being masculine, am I correct?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, I think there's versions of feminine leadership and masculine leadership, you know, one of the gifts of the masculine or men, whatever you would want to say on that is providing direction in life. Right. It's. It's just that it's providing direction.
Host (The Dating Chit): Totally appreciate that.
Jason Lange: Yeah, right. Because it takes energy to make a plan and execute it and stuff like that. So one of the great areas. Yeah, it's very sexy. One of the areas where men can really differentiate themselves now is by bringing back the skill of taking the lead. And what's really important is also including inside of that, being able to lead the relationship emotionally as well. Meaning for a lot of women, that
Host (The Dating Chit): is the biggest part. I think that's a centerpiece of the whole relationship. Right?
Jason Lange: Yeah. And emotional connection for a long time.
Host (The Dating Chit): Emotional, yeah, yeah.
Jason Lange: Emotional labor has defaulted to women in the relationship. Oh my God, is he ever going to bring this up? Are we going to talk about, are we dating, are we single? Like, are we exclusive? You know, that often defaults to the woman. And so for men to be able to take that lead and create the space to have the conversations that matter if there's tension in our intimacy or, or there's something vulnerable we need to share or talk about or there's conflict is completely game changing where instead of him waiting for her to bring it forward, he creates the space of hey, we've been dating now for two or three months. How's it going for you? I'm really enjoying this. I think I would like us to become exclusive. But what's it like for you? What do you think? Right. Literally just initiating the conversation and having that emotional leadership can completely be a gift to the feminine because often they're used to being the ones to have to do that.
Host (The Dating Chit): I noticed that men reluctant of opening that conversation anymore today. And we're being women left not sure what's going on. And you know, we're not designed to be taking that lead to ask questions like that, hey, are we supposed to be in a relationship now? Can I be your girlfriend now? Right. We don't ask questions like that, but we're often felt being put in a corner of how to clarify that. It's super awkward.
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. And it puts right in the work. We call that, it reverses polarity because it puts you in the position of having to take the lead. Which again, it doesn't mean a woman can't ever do that. My wife and I switch that all the time. But if that's only what's happening, what will likely happen in your case, let's say a woman's case where she's having to take the lead all the time is she's going to lose attraction for him. Like oh my God, it's so much work to be in relationship with him. I got to bring this up again. I wish he would just talk, you know.
Host (The Dating Chit): Yeah. A man who is afraid to talk at the most critical moments, like for example, defining a relationship, if you can't talk, it's just not attractive. It's not reflecting your ability being a man, in my understanding.
Jason Lange: Exactly. And it doesn't necessarily make you want to be close to him. Right.
Host (The Dating Chit): To relax. Yeah. It does not nurture the closeness.
Host (The Dating Chit): We want men. More men be doing that.
Jason Lange: Yeah. Right. This is the impact it has and why I say men can differentiate themselves by learning some of these skills to lead in the traditional sense of making plans and driving things forward, but also lead in the emotional sense of being able to create space for intimacy and conversations and connection and vulnerability.
Host (The Dating Chit): Wow. Sounds like there are a lot work can be done.
Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. It's all very trainable is the good news. Right. So it's not that men can't do this. It's just a lot of times we've never been taught what it means to be relational, to be connected to our emotions, to not be scared of your emotions, how to talk about things in relationship. These are just tools that a lot of men are not given the toolkit for. Right. We're kind of sold the fantasy in Hollywood of, oh, you meet and then you fall in love and then you're happily ever after. And what those stories never cover is, no, love is something you gotta, like, work at. Right. It's a process with a partner of rupture and repair and leadership and vulnerability.
Host (The Dating Chit): And you have to be strong enough to want to stay in those moments of difficulties. Right?
Jason Lange: Absolutely. Yes. Another piece of that work I do with men is. Yeah. Is building resiliency in their nervous system to stay present when things get hard emotionally or if they're scared or if they're overwhelmed, to say, hey, I'm still here. Wow, I can tell you're really mad at me.
Host (The Dating Chit): Whoever you choose to be with, there are going to be moments like that. And it's so important to have that resilience and to stay there, to not leave and to get through that with your partner, then. Then you can actually have a successful relationship. If you leave every time you have problem, then no matter who you meet, you know it's never going to last.
Jason Lange: Exactly. Yeah. You're just going to keep hitting the same problems over and over and over again, which is very confronting to men. And often when men Will come to me where they're like, yeah, you know, I've been in three or four relationships over 20 years or married four times, and I'm starting to realize maybe the common denominator is me. And there's something I'm bringing to the table. Yeah. That I need to do some work on of how, yeah, I'm an avoidant in relationship, or I'm overly anxious, or I don't share my feelings, or I don't take the lead or, you know, different things that play out. That men can then learn the skills so they can show up differently and create more connection and intimacy in a successful relationship.
Host (The Dating Chit): I know you suggest every man should join men's group.
Host (The Dating Chit): That's awesome.
Jason Lange: Her whole nervous system just relaxed, right? Oh, that's where you're at. You don't need me to fix it. But I feel closer to you knowing what you're struggling with and knowing you're
Host (The Dating Chit): working on yourself, knowing you're looking for
Jason Lange: solutions and that I had support around me, holding me accountable versus if I didn't have a group.
Host (The Dating Chit): Awesome.
Jason Lange: And I was like, I'm just. I'm terrified. I'm so scared. I don't know how I'm going to pay rent next month. I don't know how we're going to start a family. I don't know what to do, honey. Right. Like, if I was coming at you with that energy, then she's like, whoa. Oh, my God. That's, like, scary, because I don't. I don't know how to handle that. So what I say is, it's just when men are also holding us in our vulnerability, it comes across very differently when we share it with our feminine partners, in particular.
Host (The Dating Chit): After you're telling me that, I do see the value of being in a man's group for men.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And it's where they get connection, support, where they can get accountability and feedback. You know, I can't tell you how many times I've gone to a men's group and been all charged up about something going on in my relationship or my marriage and, like, make the case, oh, my God, my wife. So blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm, you know, It's. It's her fault. It's not my fault. And, you know, the guys listen to me for five, 10 minutes. They know me, they know our story, and they're like, dude, how are you out? Do you see how you're contributing to this dysfunction and that maybe you have something to do with it? And it's like, oh, crap, you're right.
Host (The Dating Chit): That's total therapy. That's like effective therapy.
Jason Lange: And they help me see something, which then instead of going home and having a fight with my partner, I get to come into relationship and say, hey, I know this thing isn't working between us, and I can now see my part in it, and I'm committed to changing that. And, man, what a proactive way to come at relationships. Partner's like, oh, my God. Well, I want to change that too. And instead of it being a fight, it's like a collaboration. So, I mean, there's so many benefits to being in a group around connection and learning to express emotionally and vulnerably and be held accountable.
Host (The Dating Chit): You must meet a lot of friends in men's group.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I mean, all my closest male relationships are now men I sit in circle with. And in a lot of ways, once I experience the depth of that kind of connection, I'm a lot less interested in kind of surface level, just going out and drinking beers with guys kind of things, because it just doesn't nourish me in the same way.
Host (The Dating Chit): Wow, that's great. I love everything you have told me so far, Jason. We talk so much about leadership, men, men's fear, and men's confusion and importance of joining a man's group. Is there anything else that you'd like to share with our male audience today?
Jason Lange: Get support. Right. It's much harder to grow and change alone. And if, you know, I've learned anything in this work, it's. A friend of mine gave me this phrase. You know, he's like, community is immunity. It's what helps us thrive in life and navigate the challenges. And one tip for men, and, you know, you can. You can tell me your experience as a woman about this, but it was certainly something my wife shared with me. And now I've heard from many women that one of the first things that really kind of, ooh, my wife, when we met, was when she met the men in my life. So she met the men I was surrounded by. And when she experienced, wow, these are really deep, high quality, trustable men.
Host (The Dating Chit): It speaks so much of what kind of person you are. It does. It matters.
Jason Lange: Yes. So Women, whether they're conscious of it or not, when they meet a man, they are looking at, who does he have around him because his support system, assuming you build a relationship with him, becomes part of your support system. So if he's not well supported, he's not going to be able to support you well. Right. My best man, I remember at my wedding, he literally had a two sentence speech when we got married. He's like, while you hold Violet, I hold you. And that was, that's the whole thing. Right? So you get to hold and support your wife and family. And me and the men in your life, we hold you while you're holding them. And when you imagine a whole circle of that, of men doing that for each other, that's love each other's partners and families, it's extraordinarily powerful. So as mentioned, investing in other men is you investing in your intimate relationship. That's maybe that's the takeaway I'm trying to point out there.
Host (The Dating Chit): Thank you so much, Jason, for sharing everything you've learned and you practiced.
Jason Lange: Yeah, my pleasure.
Host (The Dating Chit): If anybody will be interested in talking to you about men's group or anything, where can they find you?
Jason Lange: Yeah, best place to keep up with me, if you like. What I'm talking about here is at my website, which is Evolutionary men. So it's not.com, but it's.men. and on there you'll see the programs I run, things I write. I have the podcast of my own that's really all about men's groups. You can reach out and say, hey, I don't know where to get started. There's all kinds of resources there that can help you build the kind of community and make the changes and learn, you know, what it means to lead in this way we've talked about, which is not the old kind of caveman way and also not the pushover way. But is that that integrated way that is so comforting and trustable to be around now of a man who has both strength and heart?
Host (The Dating Chit): Well, guys, reach out. Thank you for staying with us till the end. Today we really pulled back the curtain on the hidden barriers men face. From the confines of the man box to the transformative power of vulnerability and community. I hope you're walking away with the same realization I am that true leadership is about balancing strength with sensitivity and ultimately leading with heart. As you reflect on today's conversation, here are three things to take with you. First, embrace vulnerability. It's a strength, not a weakness. Second, don't go it alone. Build or find a supportive community to help you grow. And third, lead your relationships with attunement and clear boundaries. That is where deep connection lives. If this episode brought you value, please hit subscribe, leave us a rating or review and share this with a friend who needs to hear it. Word of mouth is how we grow this mission. If you want to connect with Jason or dive deeper into his work, all of his links and information are waiting for you in the show Notes. Thank you again for tuning in to this episode of the Dating Chit. I'm your host, Tongleeu AKA Thi. Until next time, keep showing up, stay kind, stay curious, and never settle for less than the love you truly deserve. See you in the next episode.
