The Modern Man: Redefining Masculinity with a Men’s Panel dissecting boyhood, parenthood, leadership | Growth, Grace, and Gratitude

Host: A Ballerina's Perspective from performing with New York City Ballet and Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater to publishing poetry books and mentoring kids and teens, join us in a weekly discussion with experts to gain mental health clarity and achieve growth and moral consciousness. Give Our Show a 5 stars. Comment, Share and come along for the ride. Welcome back to another episode of the Growth, Grace and Gratitude podcast. Today we are doing a special panel with fellow men talking about masculinity and how what it means to be a man, what it means to lead an honorable life, a holistic life, and one that is surrounded by leadership, inspiration and guidance. Because I think a lot of trends or themes these these days are covering what it means to be a man and the themes shift from generations. I feel like before there was a big theme of feminism and feminism kind of in a way tried to erase healthy masculinity, not allowing men to kind of be themselves. So I think now we're slowly returning back to traditionalism. If you're ready to shake off that daily stress, come join us for online beginner adult ballet and yoga classes each week to connect with the flow of movement and the art of ballet into perfect synergy. Come as you are and learn to love your body a little bit more and gain strength and flexibility with each class. All are welcome. Sign [email protected] first class free. More kind of alignment, which is holistic. But why don't we just get into it and start the conversation. I will read out the bio of my two guests and then we can just kind of go from there. So we have Chris, who is an entrepreneur and with his first business being his classic car restoration, working on older Volkswagens and domestic classics. And his second business is a legacy training for male entrepreneurs and coaches on legacy. He co authored a book and it became an international bestseller in 2024. Cracking the Rich Code, Volume 15. What? So that's amazing. So, so I think that would be a great topic to talk about. What is the Rich Code and why is that important in terms of like wealth and masculinity and leadership? So welcome Chris. Thank you. And then we have Muni, A K to 12, school principal. He has a PhD in communication and MA in school counseling. He has written a lot about masculinity over the years, including a children's book and hosted a number of groups and conversations with boys of all ages. That's very inspiring. Amazing. Click funnels easily build any type of online business and sales funnel in record time no matter what your product, service or niche without any tech, design or experience whatsoever. Try The Click Funnels 14 Day Free Trial link in the description of the podcast. So why don't we talk about the passion for teaching men and boys? I think that's actually really crucial. Like, I remember when I was coaching people on the spiritual journey, I started coaching men. It just kind of sort of happened. I was normally channeling information, energy updates, inner child healing things. And a lot of men see, seem to gravitate towards connecting, healing, feeling. And I was super interested and inspired. I'm like, wow, this is really amazing how men are coming to me. It's actually connected me back to my own childhood and my own inner child, remembering how much fun I had, like just playing with boys in the park. And like that inner child connection, I think just like led me to connect to my own inner masculine essence. But I think it's really cool how men became so open and vulnerable with their emotions and feelings, whether they felt like they were going through a spiritual journey or they were going through some kind of trauma or upheaval. And they were so open to wanting help and open to kind of expressing where their life went astray or where they feel they need guidance in. So I thought that was really inspiring to listen to men talk about their problems, their journeys, their intentions. I think even when it comes to dating, it's so interesting how there are different groups of men. You know, some men are more traditional, they're able to kind of take that leadership role. And some other men are more passive. And they maybe they have been following a trend and they feel more in their feminine role, but it's a little bit toxic because then they kind of take a step back, they take us, you know, a passive approach, and then the woman has to leave. Why don't you guys join the conversation and talk about your own passion for teaching boys, men, all about healthy masculinity.

Jason Lange: Chris, you want to get us started or I can start either way. Yeah. I think for me, you know, I've tried to think about kind of what was the kind of beginning impetus. And it's really hard to pinpoint. You know, I think I, you know, I grew up with, I mean, a wonderful father, but he was often busy. So I was often, you know, around my mom and my sisters, kind of growing up, two older sisters. So I think that was kind of the start of a lot of realizations that I had of kind of just, you know, I was always very quiet, very much an observer, very much kind of comfortable in, you know, not being super competitive, not really into the things that I could pretty quickly see were kind of more kind of stereotypically like what boys were supposed to be into. And I think I, I think there was like a realization early on of kind of how harmful some of these messages were, like around gender to girls. Because I think I would see my sisters being hurt right by these messages that they received around them. So I think that's where it started. And then I think just kind of growing up, especially always being around education and then having two sons myself, just very quickly see realizing how some of the choices I would make weren't necessarily like in line with maybe more conventional masculinity and kind of seeing the responses that would get, but also seeing how powerful that would be, especially for young men and young boys to, to have a man, to see a man making some slightly different choices, right? Like whether it's in the music I listen to or the movies I would say I'm really interested in or just being aware of like, I mean, video games are a big part of my life with my son and kind of having conversation around, you know, some of the tropes in video games, right around like the damsel in distress and kind of some of those things. Like I was always, I've always been fascinated by media literacy, so. And then having been now in a K to 12 setting for almost 10 years and having had a hand in kind of one on one conversations with boys, group conversations with boys, and kind of really seeing one. Exactly what you pointed out, right? Like this yearning that many boys and men I think have for connection, but maybe not always feeling like they have the permission to socially, especially around other men. You know, as you shared kind of what you saw men sharing with you and how beautiful that was, part of my thought in my head was, you know, I would wonder how comfortable many of those men would feel sharing some of those same things with other men. Because I think as I do more of this work and kind of am in this space, I, you know, I see how much of, kind of the mask that men put on really is performing for other men. Even more so in ways than like performing for women. Jason Lange: Right. There's this very much, this kind of desire to be seen as a man by other men and this constant fragile state of like, are all the other men in my circles still Thinking of me as a man, I have to constantly. It's like this very fragile dance that I think a lot of men kind of find themselves in. As I think over the years, I've really felt a lot of found a lot of, like, fulfillment in especially helping young men and boys kind of better recognize how they develop their own ideas of what it means to be a man. And kind of giving them permission to know that there are lots of options out there. Right. And they can kind of choose to be any of these ways. Right. If they want to get swole. If they want to, you know, be into cars, like, that's fine. Right. As long as, like, you're doing that because you're interested in those things. Right. Not because it's some pressure. You feel that, well, if you're a man, you have to be into these things. So I think having those conversations, I just really love having those conversations. And I've found a lot of kind of personal fulfillment and kind of seeing changes in the young boys and men I've worked with has just been incredible. I think that's just a little bit of kind of, I think, part of the work that I find myself always drawn to.

Host: That's amazing. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. I had a completely different childhood.

Jason Lange: You could say polar opposite to you, because I was raised more by my grandparents while my mom was working full time. And also my father figure wasn't really there. It was more my grandpa who went through the second World War. So you have the influence now of the great generation on the Gen Y. So I'm.

Host: I really don't fit in that regard.

Jason Lange: Because I. I've been raised as if I'd be a boomer, but I'm not a boomer, if you know what I mean. Yeah, I don't have family yet. I really want to have family. And I've been single actually for the last 14 plus years. I've been able to put a lot more time towards, like, business, you know, spiritual journey, personal growth, figuring out stuff.

Host: And building out more.

Jason Lange: It's been, you could say, a bit of an uphill battle because again, being raised by a single mom, you know, yes, grandpa is there as a father figure, but you don't really have a father figure that are influencing you. So you're kind of learning the hard way, trying to figure out what works, what doesn't work.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And then, I mean, business wise, I got more into the automotive bit because my mom was always taking me to the car show. So that became a mutual passion. And really the way things are now, it's more. The automotive work is stress relief compared to the online business because I can do that for a bit to get out of my head.

Jason Lange: I don't think I would describe it as an attack. I think there might be like a reckoning happening with. With masculinity. I think I hesitate to call it an attack because I think to me that feels kind of in line with some of the patterns, like on an individual level that I think are problematic that I've seen with masculinity, right? Where if somebody points out a. Give some kind of feedback, some kind of critical feedback to a man, it's very, you know, it's not uncommon for that feedback to be taken as an attack, right? As a personal attack, which to me really reveals more of like this really struggle or kind of lack or inability to really reflect and have a certain amount of self awareness. Right. Where maybe like some kind of Critical feedback is, I feel like calling it attack would betray more about, like, the person calling it an attack, if that makes sense. As just like, you know, I'm feeling attacked by this criticism of masculinity. I think I've seen many spaces who, you know, with lots of totally valid critiques of, like, problematic patterns of, like, the tie to masculinity. Right. So, sure. Among them, there's maybe, you know, unreasonable ones. Sure, right. Like, it always kind of. That is kind of inevitable. But I think as a whole, I personally don't see it as an attack. I think I see it in line with kind of this bigger movement or energy or just kind of thing that's happening on a global level of just kind of what feels like a forcing of us to have to, like, reckon with things that we've been trying to avoid over the years as a society. We've tried to ignore, we've tried to hide, we've tried to avoid. And it feels like everything is coming to the surface and we're kind of on a macro level, being forced to kind of come to terms with it and reconcile, like, what is it we want to stand for? How is it we want to move in the world? How do we want to continue being. You know, I think some of how you were describing it in terms of feeling like kind of a movement pushed it all the way and kind of a little too far in one direction and kind of swinging back. I think that kind of idea of equilibrium is really powerful to me. It feels like we're having to come to, like, a new equilibrium of, like, what are the forces we want to be guided by? Because the world's been kind of guided by, very generally speaking, by masculine forces for a long time.

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Jason Lange: You know, and it. So it feels like there's maybe a shift now kind of that's kind of being really interrogated more than it has been in the past. And I'm hoping that it will kind of get us all to a place where we can kind of find a new balance, where we're not just living fully in this masculine space, but find a way to bring in some of that feminine energy that is so crucial to everybody's development. Right. Just not just On a personal level, but on like a collective level.

Host: Very interesting perspective. Yes. That seems to be occurring. Yes. Go ahead, Chris.

Jason Lange: I would just say, I mean, the.

Host: Attack, maybe if you look more at.

Jason Lange: The bigger picture, because, I mean, go.

Host: Back to, like, I wanted to talk.

Jason Lange: About, you know, the rights of passage and stuff like this. This is 1988, where they actually talk about, like, physical fighting on the COVID That doesn't happen nowadays. Like that. That stopped. You have books. Another one like, this is honestly a.

Host: Really good one on masculinity and stuff.

Jason Lange: Because these ones cite stories from, like, these are old fairy tales. And he goes through them on masculinity.

Host: Like, you have the water, the firebird. See, trying to get it in the camera. You can read those.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: Stories from all around the world.

Jason Lange: Yeah. So the firebird from Russia, the. The water life from Germany, and he breaks them down. How they influence people. They're not like, these days, they'd be, you could say, a little bit in your face, the stories. But then again, when these were written back in the day, I also got a book talking about the folklore and stuff from, like, Norway and Sweden. So the oral history of the. You could say the Norris Wolf warriors.

Host: The offender and stuff.

Jason Lange: And again, that. That's very similar. Teaching the folklore and stuff how to teach men to become boys, how to teach them to stand up, how to fight, to become strong. What are we lacking these days? We got weak men everywhere. We got people who are not willing to stand up and fight for anything. You see stuff in public, you see like crimes going on. Everybody's passive. They have their phone out. They're not doing anything. They're not stopping it. They don't care. Like, the problem is weak men like you, you see, what if you go with the fall of Rome, weak men create all the problems. We're at that point and that precipice. So now the question is, are we going to continue? Are we going to continue following or are we going to rise up and fix the problems we've created? Because these problems did not start yesterday. These problems started in the 1890s. They've been going for several generations.

Host: Exactly. Yes.

Jason Lange: Chris, could you. Sorry, could I ask her just. Chris, could you elaborate a little bit? I'd love to. I'm not sure I'm fully getting kind of. When you say these problems or kind of weak men, could you kind of help me understand a little more what. What you're speaking of when you're talking about weakness kind of, you know, you talk about fighting, is it Kind of strictly physical strength. Can you help me? Kind of physical, mental and spiritual. It's all three. You have the physical strengths, you have the mental strengths and the spiritual strengths. Jason Lange: If you look, most of society has become atheist or agnostic. They do not have the spiritual connection anymore. Mentally, they lack the strength to debate, to challenge others and do it in.

Host: Such a way without getting into physical conversation.

Jason Lange: It's either that or they go separate directions. And then physically, I mean, that's the most obvious. You got weak men, you got people out there who say they're strong when they're really not. Like physically. They can't go and fight for themselves, they can't defend themselves. They don't want to get into fights.

Host: That. That's a very interesting perspective. And yeah, I do agree with that in a way because like you mentioned, when men are scared to pick a side or pick what they represent, it's hard to be around them, for sure. I mean, I remember having a few friends and we were going on a, like. Like a treasure hunt or something. It was dark outside. We had some men who were like, looking, trying to find a way to help, to help others. And some men were just like passive and not even in tune with the reality of. And I think that's the beautiful thing about men, that we as women look up to men to be the leaders. And we can be leaders too, and we are leaders as well. That's one of the great values of men, is to be the leader. That's where men take pride in leadership as well. Knowing what do they have to lead in. I grew up dancing ballet and we had boys in ballet as well. And we have class with boys. We take bar with boys. But then when it comes to the center work and partnering, the girl is on her pointe shoes and the man is not. But he has to lead her. So she's standing on point, kind of vulnerable, having to twirl. And the man is giving his hand out and he has to lead her around in circles, you know, picking her up across the floor, and he has to be strong enough to carry her through these portals and these timelines. We do help each other 100%. But like you mentioned, Chris, it is true that more men, and I think this can be society's Teachings or trends that people pick up where it is toxic feminism kind of leading the men to be more in the back. So men wouldn't have a voice. They would feel uncomfortable to even speak their thoughts, speak their values, speak their opinions. And this is where toxic femininity kind of took, like, the front row. And a lot of women started wanting to be the lead and in a relationship especially. Do you guys have experience in partnerships when it comes to leadership? And what is your take on, like, healthy men and partnerships, if you guys want to share? Well, I mean, I've been dating for.

Jason Lange: Such a long time.

Host: You can see, because what.

Jason Lange: Like, I've been seeking out the feminine woman, and that seems to be the ultimate. The rarity these days. You've come.

Host: What is a feminine woman from your perspective? So we can also have that feminine woman.

Jason Lange: No tattoos, no piercings. Like, she's in her feminine energy. So she's willing to more. Like, she'll keep her hair down. Like, she'll. She'll be helpful, kind, courteous. You know, like, if she's working in a service job, like, she's more. She's not gonna go and exacerbate any problems. She wants to mitigate the problems if she's depending on other careers and stuff. Like, the way society has pushed women where they have to get a job.

Host: Where they have to do more, it takes away from the family.

Jason Lange: They can't have family. Hence the decreasing birth rate. You have on top of that. I mean, the push for the contraceptives and stuff, which has gone into the water supply, which, if you go a step further, that gets into the water supply, that reduces the testerone in men, that weakens men. So it's a twofold rate there. And yeah, you have. Other people have said it on Twitter. You have feminine men and masculine women, so. And then you have them trying to date each other. It just that. That repels. That repels. It doesn't work. Like, that's why you have the red pill. Men yelling at the feminist women, because.

Host: They both are like, they don't attract. They repulse because they've gone to the two extremes. Yeah. I think you seem to be coming from more of a traditional perspective, and that's a breath of fresh air, I think, because it is a more pure perspective. And there are a lot of people returning to that essence because that stands true to kind of lead a holistic family. We can talk about parenting.

Jason Lange: I. I think I feel like I would, you know, disagree with some of what I'm hearing. I Feel like I. To me, some of that perspective feels kind of pretty. Sounds pretty restrictive to me, and kind of. I feel like it's kind of filled with some fallacies in there in terms of kind of making some connections. Right.

Host: Like, parts seem restrictive just so we can.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Just in terms of, like, you know, and Chris is something you shared, but, you know, it's something I've seen in many spaces. Right. About what? You know, what are we meaning when we describe femininity? What is a feminine woman mean? What does that mean in terms of how she looks, what kind of work she does? And so I think sometimes that's described as kind of more traditional, but I also see it as kind of restrictive. And I. And I think part of it is that we're kind of in this middle space, kind of like how you were describing Ari of like, you know, we're kind of. It's. It feels like we've gone from one extreme to the other extreme, where it was, like, there was a time where, like, women were very, very. Or many women. Right. There's definitely been women throughout history who've always had to work. Right. Women of color have always been in the workforce in ways that gets lost sometimes. When we talk about the 1950s and women not being in the workforce where now, yes, there absolutely is maybe more of a pressure for, like, getting women working. But, um. But I don't know. I wouldn't necessarily agree that that's also necessarily, like, a negative thing in itself. Right. Because we're also, like, in the middle of all this. There's also, like, the fact that we're living a pretty. We're living in a pretty extreme, unchecked, capitalistic society. Right. That kind of brings its own rules and kind of expectations. So I think I would be more inclined to think about. When you talk about healthy relationships, I think there definitely is some value to what you're saying in terms of, like, men living more in their masculine and women living more in their feminine. But I think there's a lot of middle ground there for kind of each relationship to be fully open and honest and healthy. So that if in this, you know, if in one person's relationship, the man is the person who is the main breadwinner and the woman is the one who stays home. And that's what they've discussed, and it works for them, great. If another relationship is the opposite, and that's what works for them, like, fantastic. Right. I think the piece that I find more worrying is when people feel pushed or pressured to live a Certain way. Because there's this social pressure of, well, if I'm not doing this, then I'm not a real man. If I'm not doing this, then I'm not a real woman. Because I think that living with that tension is what I think causes a lot of issues. Right. If I'm a man and. And my wife is the main provider, I have struggled to find a job. There's a world where I can feel comfortable in the fact that I have this loving relationship and there's this support for our family. But where the tension can come in is if now I'm feeling like, oh, these men around me are mocking me, are making fun of me, are defining me as less of a man. And that's where sometimes I've seen, then problems in relationships arise. So I think I would be more inclined to kind of allow for that freedom of letting, you know, people define themselves in certain ways. Right. So that femininity or masculinity doesn't necessarily have to be tied to, you know, what you look like, how you dress, or anything like that. That all of these energies and forces live in all of us. Right? Like the things that are more traditionally masculine, the things that are more traditionally feminine. The more I do this work, the more I'm drawn to the concept of yin yang. Because I think that really. I think is really a powerful visual right. Of like, the masculine and the feminine and the fact that they live in each other and they're. It's a constant flow of, like, back and forth. And finding that equilibrium, to me feels like more of the goal with. Obviously, you know, men may be more inclined towards this way and women generally more inclined in this direction, but kind of recognizing how they work together as well.

Host: Yes. Very nice perspective. And yeah, I think it's true about the restrictive part. We shouldn't be. We shouldn't be restricting men or women from their potentials, from their desires. And I think there is something about the. Like you mentioned capitalist you can also think about, though. It's like survival of the fittest, right? We learned Darwinism in school and how sometimes you have to try to work hard. The idea of healthy competition is what drives us to achieve great things. Aligning to the biology of men and women is pretty simple. I think at the core of it, biologically, men do want to work and do want to achieve great things for the family. And biologically, women do want to stay home and, you know, have children. Societally, that has shifted by, you know, different teachings or different trends or different experimental things. That people want to do, which is fine. You know, people go on a journey. Souls want to experience different things. But at the core, I think people feel most balanced when we are aligned to our biology. I think that's a healthy tool to kind of keep us grounded. But of course, there are shifts. Sometimes women, they have kids, and then they want to go back to work, and they want to work full time, and then they have to, you know, readjust. There's a whole host of different things that occur to be open to all different kinds of, I guess, portals. And today is actually a portal. Today is the 999. Right. Do you guys, like, celebrate or talk about this? Because I was talking with my friend about spirituality, numerology, and it was a guy friend talking about nine. Nine is about completion, conclusion, closing cycles. So it also could be very heavy emotionally. We're shifting ancestral timelines and figuring out what we want, what we feel comfortable doing, how we want our divine gift to be expressed within the universe, whether we are female, male, whatever our soul wants to. To, you know, express or channel. I think a lot of men have started channeling, which is so beautiful. And it's like there's so many men who are coming forth and just, like, sharing their truth, like, you guys are sharing your truth here. So I think that's really beautiful. And when it comes to parenting, I feel like we all have experience, whether it is growing up, like you mentioned, Chris, with your grandparents. I think that's actually a beautiful gift because not everyone has that as well, you know, not. And even though, like you said, you didn't have a father figure, I mean, it's still beautiful to have grandparents. They are, like, the core of wisdom, you know, to your lineage. So I think that's also beautiful. So why don't we dive a little bit into parenting? And I think you wrote a book, Muneeb. Raising Better. Yeah, Raising Better Boys, which. That sounds very cool. So tell us a little bit about the book and your perspective about parenting. I think that's a very important topic.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I mean, there's so many places to go talk about parenting. Definitely something very passionate about, for sure. I think, you know, writing the book for me really came from. I mean, I feel like I've done a lot of work in writing around masculinity, around parenting, and kind of the. The impetus for the book really came from I was sharing. I think it was online somewhere, because I think the conversation started to talk, you know, started talking about the manosphere red pill. You know, adolescence had just come out on Netflix, which is incredible if you haven't seen it. Really highly recommend. And so I was in a lot of spaces online kind of talking about all of that. And so I think somebody had asked something like kind of what, just kind of looking for help, like what can we do to help our boys? And I just shared something that I did with my oldest son, who's 17 now, that, you know, especially with my background in media, like media literacy was always really important for me and in my parenting. And I feel like, you know, I shared this kind of little activity exercise day with my son who, you know, as he was getting older, he was starting to ask about watching R rated movies, you know, and I was saying like, you know, there's definitely R rated movies you could see now as like a 12 year old. There's some that you're gonna have to wait for. Or I think Maybe he was 14 or 15 at the time. But I was like, you know what? Like, if this is something that we want to start doing, which I generally kind of depending on the movie, don't totally disagree with because R rated movies are such a spectrum. But I was like, let's watch a few things together first that I want you to kind of start thinking about, you know, because kind of over the years I've come across documentaries and various video series on YouTube that I love that I think do a really good job of specially breaking down things like the representation of women in media, things like some of these problematic patterns of kind of masculinity in media. And so we kind of sat down and watched some of these things together, had conversations. I was like, you know, if we're going to watch these movies, there's going to be more violence, there's going to be more kind of sexual content. I want you to at least kind of, I want to at least open the door to have these conversations now so that when we do watch it, if you have any questions, we can always kind of talk about it. And I got a really great response from people when I kind of shared this thing. And so it kind of inspired me to write this in terms of like around a few key areas that I find myself really being drawn to more and more, you know, because I think like a few things that I really focus on in that book in particular are like the, the kind of danger and slippery slope of jokes, you know, like that's one thing, like especially working in a school. I think the bulk of like these problematic things, if you want to talk called toxic masculinity you want to talk with misogyny, whatever you want to call it, you know, often in schools kind of almost get a free pass because somebody says, no, I was just joking, right? I was just a joke. It was just a joke. And how crucial it is to really interrupt those, right, because they are problematic and they need to be stopped. And. And as I've kind of tried to dive into, you know, what people call the manosphere and all these spaces, like, a lot of it, especially for young boys, starts out in the form of memes, right? In the form of jokes, in the form of these really harmful messages that are being shared in what appears to be really harmless way that kind of creates this kind of slippery slope of like, well, you know, somebody has a phone, they're not being necessarily supervised because, you know, they're 14 and they have a cell phone, and they see an image they think is funny, they share it with 20 other friends, and they're all laughing. And maybe on the surface it's harmless, but really it's contributing to just this culture of normalizing misogyny, normalizing this way of relating with each other as boys, which is really problematic, right? Like, now I'm connecting with this other boy by talking down on girls, right? I'm relating with this other boy by making a joke about domestic violence, right? This is now how we're. And it's just a joke. Don't worry about it, right? Which is really, really hot. So that was, like, kind of one area I really focus on. And media literacy, I think, is really, really crucial. You know, I've had this conversation with parents and, you know, with various people, and it's like, I've come to really feel like, you know, there's. There's no way to prevent boys from seeing harmful content like that. We've. We're past that. If they spend more than 10 minutes on YouTube, if they go anywhere online, they're going to see content that pushes, you know, dangerous ideas about women, dangerous ideas about what it means to be a man. And so I think for me, really, what I. I'm finding myself more and more drawn to is how can we empower them to have the analytical tools so that when they do come across these things, which they will, whether it's porn, whether whatever it is, so that they know how to, like, identify it, interrogate it, push it away, reject it, or, like, seek help for it, right? Like, hey, feeling comfortable being like, I'm not really sure what this means, finding a trusted adult that they can go to, right? So I Think those are the pieces that I'm trying to kind of think about as well as accountability is like, another big area I'm finding myself drawn to. So those are some of the things that particularly that that book are kind of my areas of focus.

Host: That's amazing. I think it's such a important part of raising kids, especially boys, because it's like, how do you discipline them? But also you want to be open to their feelings and their sensitivity. I think a lot of boys growing up these days are so sensitive, and maybe this is because they're, like, becoming more spiritual at a younger age, but they are. And to allow them to be sensitive and not to shut them out as well, because it's like they are already sensitive so young, that's also a beautiful thing because that means they are growing in compassion. They're going to be able to be an amazing friend, partner, you know, brother, son. It's like, it's so wonderful to see so many little boys and how they're growing up. So, yes, as a father figure, as an adult, to discipline in that way. It's so hard as well. Right. Because it's like you want them to be strong, you want them to be smart and capable, but also to be emotionally abundant and emotionally aware.

Jason Lange: So.

Host: Yeah. It's such a beautiful thing you're doing.

Jason Lange: Thank you. Yeah. And I think that emotional intelligence is another area that I'm like. I feel like that's the key in so many ways. You know, I keep coming back to this idea of how it feels. To me, like a big source of issues that boys and men are going through. Kind of comes down to what I feel like is. Yeah. I mean, a lack of emotional intelligence, for lack of a better way to say it. Right. Like the lack of ability or capacity to really sit with their own feelings. Right. Really sit with their own discomfort, which I think is such a crucial step to accountability. Like, if you do something that hurts somebody, somebody's going to hopefully call you out on it. You're going to have to recognize that you did something wrong, that doesn't feel good. And you're going to have to be able to sit with that feeling of, I messed up, and then work your way through that to choose to do better. Right. And if you don't have that skill, which unfortunately, a lot of boys and men are not encouraged to develop that skill, what happens is they get called out and they lash out. Right. They feel attacked, like you were just saying. Right. Like, they feel attacked. It's too much to literally, like, they don't know how to take care of that energy. And so they turn it back on whoever's around them. Right. They lash out, they engage in risky behavior, they drink whatever it is, anything to not sit with the discomfort of their own feelings. And I feel like that's a piece that I'm finding myself drawn to, especially as I work with boys and like, you know, young men at a school, like every day, kind of encouraging that sensitivity, right? If I hear them saying, like, I'm really sensitive and being like, that's awesome. That's like a superpower, right? To be sensitive to other people's feelings, to be aware of how you feel, to be aware of how other people feel. Like we need more of that because the world is lacking that right now. So if you have it, like, don't ever lose it. But let's learn how to manage it. Let's learn how to cope with it. Let's learn how to channel it to improve yourself and the community around you.

Host: 100. Yes. And Chris, you want to add as well to something that we were talking about. I know, yeah, go ahead.

Jason Lange: Yeah, well, going on your points of the whole manosphere, but there were a couple high profile entrepreneurs who actually spoke out about that. Like, yeah, Bedros Coolian in California, who's worth like nine figures. He spoke out about the manosphere, how they lack integrity and how to just.

Host: Constantly belittle women instead of building families, building community.

Jason Lange: You have Alex Heroi, he spoke out about it and he's on his way.

Host: To make, I mean, he's working his.

Jason Lange: Way to become the next billionaire. Again, he spoke out about it.

Host: You watch, you see his posts on Twitter. And yet the people who are in.

Jason Lange: The manosphere in that community basically attack him, calling.

Host: He doesn't know what he's doing yet. He's been married for how many years.

Jason Lange: And he's made how much money with his wife? Like, he knows a lot more than these people want to admit. Like, I mean, when you go to childhood rearing and stuff, I mean, another, a lot of books, this is another one on rites of passage, but this is masculine and feminine Rites of Passage. It's one of the few that talks about how the male rites of passage and the female, how they're different, how they can grow into their own energy, how to become who you know to their highest potential.

Host: And yeah, I mean, I'm hoping.

Jason Lange: I got quite a lot of books to go through, but I'm hoping to go through as I meet my person, as we're able to have Our family to use them to actually go through and go through the rituals, the rites and what's needed to grow almost like raise them as if they were born in the 1900s versus or I guess the 1800s because it was out of. Falling out of fashion around 1909. So 1800s, when these were all still alive and well on society, society understanding their rights or roles and also building their resilience to deal with what all is going on in the world. Chris, after this chat, I'd love it if you could send the titles of those books in the email thread. I'd love to check those out.

Host: Yeah, actually I could send you the whole. There's a webpage that has them all listed.

Jason Lange: Awesome, awesome. Thank you.

Host: That's amazing. Yeah, I think when we're able to read and to connect with different timelines and we learn so much of how it used to be, how we would like it to be and what we want to include or exclude based on it being toxic in the past or some things are great and we want to bring them forward into the future. So yeah, it's very true. Like people who are traditionalists or people who focus on religion, they have to bring some parts of the past, but they have to also be weary of cycles that they want to leave in the past. So I think a lot of spiritual men are also connecting with those dots, which is amazing because it means they are self aware, they are able to see the past as having, you know, polar, polar experiences where some things are great to pick up and some things are just toxic and can be left in the past. And I think on my own journey, just as a female, it's wonderful to connect with men who are aware of that because a lot of times the women were the ones suffering a lot and the men had to kind of take that toxic role. So when men are becoming more and more awake to the realization of what the feminine went through, I think that's the most beautiful thing in a partnership or in a friendship as you're able to understand what men went through in the past as well as women and to kind of heal together. I think that's the beauty of connections in today's age.

Jason Lange: I mean, Ari, the other thing is like we have the term toxic masculinity. There was a pastor at the church I was going to.

Host: He moved away at the beginning, like.

Jason Lange: March of this year. He went to Alberta from B.C. and. And he was very critical of that turn because that was basically going and telling men to stop protecting women. That was telling men to stop having integrity. That was telling men to be weak little bystanders. And the fall almost did a route of the red pill, which that I.

Host: Would call is more toxic than actual masculinity.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I don't think that was ever my takeaway from the term. I think. I think toxic masculinity as a term has definitely become like a hot button topic, right? So that it's like, there's so much that it has come to mean, it's been used and kind of manipulated to mean various things. Manipulated, right. But. But I think for me, the way I've ever, only ever, like, thought about it and have kind of made sense of it, it's like another way to describe it would be like talking about the patterns that are generally present within masculinity that are harmful yourself or others. Right. Like within ideas of masculinity, there are things that, if taken to the extreme, can be harmful. Right. So generally speaking, masculinity means being stoic, right? Not showing emotion. And so to take into an extreme, which it often has been, right, Meaning not taking care of your own, well being, being emotionally abusive or manipulative to people around you, that's now becoming toxic. If a general expectation of masculinity and what it means to be a man is to be dominant, there's a positive take on that, which is taking on leadership roles, which is taking care of the people around you. But a toxic version of that, an extreme version of that is oppressing people, suppressing people, winning at all costs, not caring about other people. Toxic masculinity has unfortunately, and I think, try to be mindful of that, right. That, like, I think especially if I am talking to men, I generally try to avoid that term because it can be taken as pretty immediately critical of kind of all men are masculinity. But I think it's also very valuable to be kind of acknowledge that, like, yeah, like a lot of really horrible, horrible things have been done under the kind of banner of man. Right. Of masculinity. And so I think being mindful of that history and that, like, yeah. Taken to extremes, there are things within masculinity that can be really harmful to men themselves as well as to the people around them. So I think, you know, I tried to be mindful, like, not thinking like, oh, mass toxic masculinity means, like, all, like, being man is being a man is a bad thing, or you have to be submissive at all times. But I think unfortunately, like, that term has really kind of been warped and overused maybe, is the thing. Yeah. Well, there's a Netflix documentary that's, I think, called Toxic Masculinity. That's what the pastor brought up. And it is basically going and talking about all the extremes, which you mentioned, and using that as the example and trying to exacerbate the problem. So, yeah, like, where's the.

Host: You know, where's reality versus what people.

Jason Lange: Yeah, sure.

Host: You both brought so much inspiration and wisdom to the community. So I'm sure a lot of men and women will listen to this and be inspired to just, like, rethink what is their value, what is their intention behind healthy masculinity and what it means to be a man in today's world, which is challenging. The more we can begin to appreciate men to the point where women do not bash or hate men, which has been a huge trend. If you guys want to share any last words or where can people connect with you guys? And yeah, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Jason Lange: Yeah, thank you so much. No, this has been a great conversation, I think. Yeah. I recently wrote a similar thing, as you just said. Right. Would love to get to a point where I'm not seeing all this bashing from both sides. Right. Like, men bashing women, women bashing men. And I think ultimately, like, I'm really invested in myself, but also, if there's any kind of help I can provide other men, especially to kind of find ways to start moving that needle. Right. Because there is a burden on men, I think, to shift the collective narrative on these problems as well as there is for women. Sure. But, like, that's not right. I'm not a woman. I don't identify as a woman, so I'm not taking on that responsibility. My responsibility is over here with how to shift the narrative on men. So that's what I focus on, you know, so I don't have anything negative because I'm gonna, you know, do that. But yeah, please, you can find me on. On threads online at Muni Brazai. And yeah, I've got a couple of ebooks, a children's book on masculinity and love doing this work.

Host: Amazing.

Jason Lange: I guess if they want to find me, it'd be easier on LinkedIn.

Host: It's LinkedIn. Christopher Bauer.

Jason Lange: Instagram. Similar, but just add four the power for I I, there's a. My name's kind of common, so I, I, I didn't get the first one. And yeah, I also have my website.

Host: Which will Be linked through the LinkedIn.

Jason Lange: And on my banner, it is the Leaving Legacy Live bit. I also have a school group which is a free community that if men.

Host: Want to join, they can look it up.

Jason Lange: And it's called the Legacy Collaborative. So they can. But that ties back to the website and to the LinkedIn. They're all kind of interconnected.

Host: So amazing. Well, thank you so much, Chris and Muneeb. It was such a beautiful conversation. And come back anytime.

Jason Lange: Thank you so much, Ari. Really appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

Host: Welcome back. We are doing series on healthy masculinity. What it means to be a man in today's society. Growing, evolving, healing, going through different cycles of evolution. And today we have Andrew and. Oh, okay. I'm gonna. Yeah, we are connecting with men and talking to them on the journey of ascension, growth, and just learning about different perspectives and different journeys from the man's point of view and also from the woman's point of view. So thank you guys for joining me. We have Jason, Jose, and Andrew, and I thought it would be great to kind of start with where your passion began for connecting with the masculine energy and what your. What your work is all about. Jose, over here, a doctorate in Chinese energetic medicine, and he helps people live authentically while minimizing stress, anxiety, and more. All about a centered and balanced life leads to a centered and balanced man. Very true. And I think it would be great to talk a little bit about the foundation and understanding of different aspects of masculine and when it comes to balance. So thank you so much. Jose, tell us a little bit about your work with Chinese energetic medicine, which. Which sounds very, very aligned with spirituality and holistically healing.

Jason Lange: Yes, it really is. It's completely, completely different than your standard TCM that you would find anywhere else. So I'm Jose Mendoza, doctor of Chinese energetic medicine. One of the main things that I do is not just help people live centered, authentic lives, but I help men transform their lives as well. It's a complete holistic system. And as I was referring to, when you look at tcm, the modern standard Chinese medicine we have now, they're missing the spiritual component of the medicine. Lots of political reasons for that that there's no need to get into. But just know that the work that I do incorporates that missing element back in, and that's one of the ways that I can help to bring people back to their center point, back to who they are and live authentically.

Host: Very true. Yes. I think the spiritual elements is the exact missing thing that a lot of people are Also craving to either understand within themselves or to get clarity on when it comes to physical healing, mental healing, emotional healing. That spirituality aspect, yes, 100% is so true. So thank you for bringing that up. And next we have Jason. He does shadow work and he leads men's, men's groups through evolutionary man and teaches men embodiment and healthy relationships. So thank you so much for joining us and talk a little bit about. I think shadow work is super important. I think that's a lot of us empaths. And whether you are a man or woman, there's a lot of shadow work involved in trying to integrate different frequencies and experiences. So please tell us a little bit about your work as well.

Jason Lange: Sure, yeah. I'm a men's guide and group facilitator and I've been in men's work for about 20 years, which really just started with my own journey in terms of I literally started going to men's groups to heal and get the support I needed to. Yeah, learn and connect to what healthy masculine was as it was pretty absent in my life. And now I'm super passionate about getting guys connected to each other, particularly through men's groups and oftentimes right in parallel with that, getting them more embodied. So helping men drop out of their heads, deeper into their bodies where lo and behold, that's often where emotions live. And so if we're not in our bodies, we're rarely feeling our emotional experience. And most men are severely under trained in terms of what their emotions are, how to identify them, how to name them, how to work with them. And when they don't, lo and behold, we tend to stuff them. That kind of man box, bro macho culture keeps us locked in isolation and not knowing how to work with that. Often these emotions stay in the shadow. What do most men do? They turn to substances outside themselves to try to change how they're feeling on the inside. Alcohol, overworking tv, sex, you name it. And long term, as I imagine Jose knows, you stuff that stuff down long enough, it shows up as physical ailments and real tension and struggle with men who particularly what I find is a lot of, you know, a lot of guys, we kind of come in with a certain amount of, you could say chi or energy on our debit card. And we just crank through our 20s, working hard, partying hard, living hard. Then you start to hit your mid-30s, 40s and beyond. And this stuff really shows up and takes a toll on men. So my passion is a just pushing back against the default, particularly here in the west in the United States, where I live, hyper, individualistic, macho man, Marlboro man culture. If hold it all inside, be tough, be stoic, because it ends up killing men. The stats are pretty bleak, in fact. Wow.

Host: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That's so true. It's also, what is the narrative on men? What is the current trend or what is the societal influence or impact? Because there is different kind of storylines that are drilled into young boys that they don't even know which direction to take oftentimes. So it's really breaking into the forefront 100%. And next we have Andrew, who is a medicine man and inventor. So very interesting. Tell us a little bit about the work you do.

Jason Lange: Sure. So, hi. Nice to meet you. So my name is Andrew, but when I'm wearing this, when I'm hiding behind this thing, I'm known as Coyote Blanco, which is basically white coyote. I'm a sacred clown. That means I have decades of experience in medicine and ceremonial stuff. But I mean, decades. Not as in I took a workshop and then I did a thing, but more as in I was trained. And so now that I'm 39, I've had plenty of time to go beyond the focus of the thingy and end up lining up alliances for environmental sanctuaries where we apply and implement cognitive technology that I invented as well. That's why it gets really funny. And with this, we help restore and rebuild social fabric across vast expanses of land. I'm experienced. I am the first cultural implementer by the com. Napas is the name. It's a national commission for peace and nonviolence in. In Mexico. And we are the only citizen movement that has presence in the country's Senate. This is important because I am heard by those people who. By legislators. And also I am a member of Native American Church of Turtle Island. This is a church, not a religion. This is important because Native American Church of Turtle island is a branch of the original peyote church, which was made to protect Native nations traditions and medicines, which allows me and gives me permission and mushroom word and out. Because I'm also trained as a clown for rehab and whatnot. It's necessary. You guys have said it. We exist here because we're more. We're more neurotic than ever. We're in the craziest version of humanity we've ever seen. And this is pretty banana. And so to tackle this, I'm the one who has taken the time to go. All right, so most people are walking away from medicines and whatnot. Because like sacred medicines and whatnot. Yeah, okay, I'm going to walk in the other direction. I'm going to learn the thing and come back. So we actually have the thing, not just the tourism. Because one thing that happens is the health of the individual has to exist with the environment. Our minimum size is ecosystem. And we need to understand that, because if we don't, we will forget that we exist and fabric and all the things that we so much enjoy exist thanks to native nature and for eternity. Cult of war and death and destruction and stupidity. Willing stupidity. So as a sacred clown, my job is to remind us all that we have a celestial dignity. It doesn't matter what you call whatever spirits you believe in. This is not about belief. Life is really sacred. Life is really sacred. And so what I do is I do this all around. I talk to drug dealers, I talk to civil organizations, I sit down and I make peace agreements and then I enforce them. So I am a clown. I am a spiritual counselor. I am an active member of a church, which counts. It counts. But I'm also trained in crisis and in peace building. So I constantly and continuously dedicate my time to doing that. Setting up, either setting up communities so that they evolve beyond their current limitations. And. And also I set up access points where people can receive the services that they desperately need when they're in crisis. Because the world, the blood, those who are sticky with blood from like on the street, those people, you'll find them on the street. So I go and I find them on the street and I catch them and I bring them over to the side of life. And the nose helps because, you know, most love tend to kill someone. This is a brief intro. There's way more. But my name is Andrew. Nice to meet you. Thank you for having me here. It's really an honor to be here, guys. Thank you for your work, guys, by the way. And thank you for your work, Eric. This is much needed.

Host: Yeah, thank you for your work as well and for describing everything. I think it's interesting that you're embodying the sacred clown. Like you mentioned yesterday, we had a conversation with some men on the podcast as well for the series, and we were actually talking about, like in schools, how boys will start to kind of make fun of girls and they start, I think, prematurely, using the sacred clown archetype, if you will, without understanding how to properly access, assess their inner child, like trickster or something like that. And I think when it comes to growing up as a man, the idea of the clown archetype Is there is a level of truth telling there. It's like, like you mentioned, bringing chaotic energy to the forefront and helping people to see beyond the veil of illusion. And so yes, there is something about that trickster energy to use it with responsibility and accordingly to reveal the underlying the paradox and using creativity by acknowledging the destruction. And as long as the satire doesn't go towards cruelty, because that's what boys growing up today are aligning themselves with a sense of cruelty and condescension. So if you, if any of you guys want to talk about the clown archetype, archetypes of the masculine role that you think is good to align with, please add in your thoughts.

Jason Lange: I would like to add one thing about the clowning thing. It's a distinction that I, that I do, which is, for example, if I say a joke, it's only comedy if we're all laughing today.

Host: Right. If the intention is to unify. Right. And not just.

Jason Lange: Here's the distinction. It's not the intention, it's the result. Because if I'm going to clown around, I know how to make you laugh. I know how to connect with you. I don't care who you are, I know how to connect with. And the distinction is it has to be in that direction. There is no other. Because the whole laughter is the. It's a forward movement in life. But forward means we all move forward. That's the decision that I would add because that's one that most people miss. Oh, boys will be boys, but boys are terrifying creature. How boys do we want? Sometimes boys are more like bears, like jaguars. And it's very dangerous to be around them. But it does have to do a lot. It is directly connected to how we see ourselves and how we allow ourselves to exist and be witnessed by those around, you know, even if we don't consider ourselves particular inclined.

Host: 100. Yes.

Jason Lange: Yeah. What I sometimes maybe to contextualize with part of what we were just talking about, there is one of the challenges I see is, you know, there's talk of toxic masculinity and healthy masculinity. And then, you know where I stand, There is no toxic masculinity. What there is is disconnected masculinity. What happens when we get disconnected? So when we disconnect from self, our heart, when we disconnect from other, our impact on other. And then just like Andrew was talking about, what happens when we feel disconnected from literally the world and environment and ecosystem we are part of. And usually when men come to me, they're feeling a mix of one or sometimes all of those things. And it's only when a man is disconnected in these ways, particularly from his heart and from his impact on the other, that we can cause these deep harms. But as men reconnect and feel the impact, masculinity itself is just an energy that all people have access to. It's the disconnection that is so brutal and that we are literally often as boys trained into right from an early age. Even, you know, it's different around the world. But how many times have we heard, you know, stop crying or get up, be tough, you're fine. And what this starts to teach boys from a young age is whatever's happening in your body, override it with your head. Right, Override it with your head. Then we get into school, and what lesson do often boys get? Sit still, stop moving. Oh, you're moving a lot. You have adhd, there's something wrong with you. Override that impulse to move in your body. Then we get into middle school, kind of adolescence. And what are we taught? Very quickly, boys, bodies are changing at a different age. The pressure starts to come from other boys. If there's any difference, you're attacked for it, right? If you show any vulnerability or any emotion, oh, he's a da, da, da. You can just think of all the adjectives. Attack for it. So what do we learn? Override what's going inside, put on this posturing front. Then we get out into the workforce. Same thing. What are most men rewarded for? Oh, he works 60, 70, 80 hours a week. He's so tough, he's so committed, right? What's the cost of that? Often our well being, our health, you know, as Jose talks about. And so from a young age, we're actually rewarded for being disembodied and being disconnected and part of, you know, the importance of the work these guys are doing. You're doing with making voice space for this on a podcast is creating the counterculture that, no, we need more connected men who are connected to themselves, who are connected to others and are connected to the ecosystem, the land, the actual planet that they are part of. Because when we're disconnected from it, we can trash it, right? We just see that time and time again, the degradation of the earth we live in. So for me, the most important thing we can do to men is get them connected to self, to other, and to the land.

Host: That's so beautifully said, Jason. I 100% agree. I think so often the disconnection leads to complete brutality. Mind, body and spirit. And yes, I think the first step is connection or reconnection because that will totally help men lead their own sovereignty as well as lead whatever they are leading. Because men are here also to lead, which is a beautiful thing. It means that they are worthy to lead. I think that's also something that we have to acknowledge with women and men, to not bash men and not hate men for their leadership if they are doing a wonderful job, because that is part of their, I think, destiny and life purpose. And depending on what they choose to lead, that is going to bring a sense of intuition, a sense of unity. We all thrive in communities where men take that role consciously. And I think that takes so much work. And yeah, Jason beautifully explained that. Jose, would you like to join and add as well?

Jason Lange: Absolutely. I'd love to add a few things. When Andrew brought up the idea of the sacred clown and when you started to mention about the archetypes and of course, as Jason touched upon how there's two aspects to masculinity, the way I see it is not that there's necessarily two aspects of masculinity connected, disconnected, but more so one hasn't grown into the other. You have masculinity and you have boyhood. And too many men enter their lives as boys and continue to be boys. They've not received the lessons, they've not received the understandings, they've not stepped into those archetypes that exist for us. And even within the archetypes themselves, there's two. You have the positive, or what could be called the yang archetypes, and you have the ones that lean towards the more negative or the yin archetypes in that regard. And going back to the example of the clown, for example, Andrew's work is great as a sacred clown, he's working towards that Yang aspect where he helps other people and they both laugh together. But the yin archetype of that, that's a clown with a closed off heart who cannot handle the realities of the world anymore because it brings too much pain. And so in order to disconnect, as Jason said, he laughs and he pokes fun at others. He laughs and he pokes fun at other events at the expense of others for his own sake. There's an interesting story that was told to me where this lady who had been in a car accident went to go retrieve her car from the junkyard and there were these two men that had been there. They've been live or they've been working there for quite some time, several decades, I believe. And so when she showed up and pointed out her car. They began to laugh, and she was very confused. Why are you laughing? And they said, oh, because we made a bet between the two of us. We do with every accident that comes through as to whether the person is living or not. And so I lost the bet. He won the bet because they could not handle the reality that they're constantly seeing cars come in with the constant reminder that somebody probably died. And so that disconnect then causes them to joke so they don't have to think about it. And that's a big aspect that's missing amongst men. We're not connected to our feelings. We're not connected to our emotions. They're gross, they're icky, they're not fun. I'll fight an alligator, I'll scale a mountain. I'll do all these things. But if I have to turn inward and feel, no, I don't want to do that. And that's the mindset. So then the heart closes off. We shield ourselves and protect ourselves from the world so that we don't get hurt. And in doing so, we're bringing about less benefits to everybody, because now we're not in our masculinity. We're not in that yang aspect, that true archetype. We're sheltered, we're closed off. We don't want to be bothered. And that's truly a sad state, because in my line of work, it's all about bringing you back, opening the heart and connecting you back to yourself authentically, so that you could connect to your source and your higher purpose. And then from there, you're able to express yourself to the fullest extent, be a true masculine man, and share that with others.

Host: Wow. Thank you so much, Jose. That was beautifully said as Well, I think. 100% true. And that's like the gift of the awakening journey so many men are experiencing, because internally, they are craving to be acknowledged for their feelings and emotions, everything they're thinking and experiencing. And that they have been neglected. Because a lot of our inner child wounds start to come out when we are going through adolescence, early adulthood, and that's when we don't want to feel. We want to kind of numb it down. But it starts rising higher because I think the soul journey is calling out for that initiation. And I think we each experience that on different levels and in different ways. For men and women, they all experience different experience, different ways of awakening. And I know my journey was all about reconnecting to my feelings as well, because as a kid growing up, I grew up dancing Ballet. And we didn't have to talk, we just had to dance and perform. And at one point I was like, I want to understand what my feelings are and how I can put them into words. Which took a lot of work to instigate to try to understand what am I feeling. So I can imagine for men, it's super challenging because women are in a way taught to gather in groups and talk about your feelings to the point of it becomes like toxic gossip. But men don't have this kind of set up in the way women do. So I can imagine it's a huge challenge. And can you guys share a little bit about any tips for boys growing into young men? How can they become holistically healthy with their mental state to try to acknowledge their emotions without rejecting part of themselves?

Jason Lange: May I?

Host: Yeah, sure, go ahead.

Jason Lange: So here's the thing. We are smart creatures. We have intellectual smartness in us, but we rarely use it consciously until life squeezes us hard enough that lemon juice comes out and you're like, but I'm a person. How did you get lemon juice out of me? And life goes, yeah, just call my beer and watch this again. So where I'm heading with this is the thing that I teach the most when I go to school, when I work with both young ones and elder people who are still young. Jose mentioned very like there are still boys in adult type body. Although I love how both distinctions of the like child and adult and the connected disconnected, like, you know, it's because anyways, what I'm headed with is we have intellect, we have smartness. We want to acknowledge our and move through with our emotions, forward with all the things intellectual. It. The easiest way to do it, as I've learned, is there's two things. One is sniff and growl. Because this is a cognitive button. If you need to clear your mind, sniff your thoughts. Only you make that noise out of everything in Cosmos, only you make that noise. And that your nervous system will take a twice noise. So it will take advantage of that to clear out whatever noise is happening. And if emotions get too high or the thoughts are too, you growl to bring them down to your body. This growl will move you and shake your vagus nerve, among other things. And it will particularly impact your fascia, which is. It's a fascinating topic. That is one thing. And the second one is while you're at it, if you're feeling things, how about you explain present. But not just like, oh, hear me out before we have to get there, before we have together we can walk around willingly brandishing what we feel and expressing it in a constructive way. How do I teach it? Positive bullying. Well, constructive bullying, which is I am going to bully you with compliments. Why? Because I'm going to give you a compliment and there's nothing you can do about it. Also, this compliment is going to be perfectly inocos. For example, right now I have three of you in front of me and I'm gonna compliment you and none of you can stop me. So first, how dare you exist so elegantly through your struggle? How dare you raise every day with your spirit the hearts and souls of those who feel broken? How dare you bring them about into this healthy place where we can live and a world different? How dare you use sake, the creature? See how it works? I'm using the same intellect that I would use to bully anyone. It's the same intellect that I could use to go, look at me. Or I could look at you in the eye and then point upwards and make all of us lift our gaze and go, isn't this amazing? This movement opens up the space so that we don't have to reach a point where someone goes, yeah, but of course, if they reach the point, you can reach out to us.

Host: That's brilliant. Yes. Thank you so much, Andrew. Very great point.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I could speak to it maybe from a different angle, and that's. I actually put a lot of responsibility on this, on us men, meaning the type of healthy masculinity these two fine men are pointing to and that we're talking about. It's an embodied transmission that the quickest way for boys to learn is to spend time around other men who are holding this kind of deep presence. To see a man who can hold his grief without falling into collapse. To see a man who can bring forward his anger or fury but still feel completely safe and in control of it. Or to see a man who knows how to touch his fear or be vulnerable and move literally. How does he move his body through the space? How does he breathe? How does he make eye contact? That chain of transmission is part of what has been destroyed in a lot of our cultures around the world, that some indigenous cultures still have access to, to these kinds of rites of passage like we were talking about, of. We need boys to spend time with healthy older men. And while there is a growing, at least in the work I do men's work movement to bring rites of passage back, the reality is they have research around this. Something as simple as a single intervention, meaning an older man puts his attention on a young Boy and shows that he cares. That's it. Just I care what's happening in your life, what are you doing or what's going on here can completely alter the trajectory of a boy's life. And so many boys don't have that. So, you know, it can start in something like fatherhood, big brother programs, even just getting involved in your local community and grabbing a kid, taking him out for a walk. This is the level I think we need to engage at right now, which is very personal, man to man, and doesn't have to mean you have to, you know, take custody of this boy or anything, but just to develop a relationship and put your attention on him and invite him to spend time with you or spend time with your. Your brothers or uncles or whatever that might be. Because that used to be a big part of the experience, and that's mostly been eradicated. And when we don't have that, what happens? Boys are left to be raised by social media, mainstream media, and other boys. And none of that is doing a sufficient job right now. Terrifying. But that last one is terrifying. And there is my other voice.

Host: Yeah. And I think that's so beautiful. You mentioned the ancestral part. When we have the wisdom of grandparents or older adults who are carrying those codes to help the boys grow into young men, it's such a beautiful gift that. What a wonderful thing to acknowledge and also implement into our society. So, yeah, that's so beautiful. Jason and Jose.

Jason Lange: Thank you. I really enjoyed what everybody said so far and like to touch back with what Jason said. For boys, it's incredibly important to seek out mentors as they get older to receive that transmission, that understanding people that they trust. It could be an uncle or it could be someone else, because too many young boys don't have access to that masculinity. Their fathers are not great examples of it for most boys. And so like myself, I had to go and find other people to try to fill in those gaps. And over time, as you start to learn and see these things, then you can start to step into what your own masculinity is. Because otherwise, if you just have your father and your father's not great when it comes to masculinity, that's how you perceive it. If your father's the type of person that goes and drinks on the weekends and mistreats his spouse, you will think that that's what masculinity is like and therefore do the same. So there needs to be something else that's given to boys, and typically that's the chain of transmission, as Jason was talking about. But also I think what's really important is two things. You need to let them have their physical activity, including roughhousing. Because when it comes to rough housing for boys, that shows them how far they can extend themselves before causing someone else harm. And that's the importance of rough housing. You're sitting there, you're both playing, you're both having a good time. At what point do you stop so you do not hurt the other person? That helps to build the compassion and that helps to build that control, the self control that's needed later on in life. The other thing that's really important, in my opinion, is remember that it's not necessary to react. In other words, when you have an emotional flare up, you don't need to release it in the moment as you think it needs to be. For example, anger comes up, someone may punch a wall, someone may yell or scream. Those are all methods that are used to remove anger as it comes up. But that's a reaction, that's not the emotion. And so what's helpful for boys, for them to be taught at a young age is when that happens to say okay and verbalize it. I'm really upset with you right now, or I'm frustrated that this happened. Hey, back off. What you're doing is making me mad. That's how we get these boys to start to understand and attach these emotional feelings to words and be able to communicate that with other people, thus giving them their power back. Because otherwise you have this emotion come up. I don't know what this is. I don't know how to put it into words. Nobody else. Well, that guy likes to just rip paper. So I'm just going to rip paper and that's it. That's the end of the story. So really, it's about building them up from a young age in order for them to learn. That's the reason why there was apprenticeship, journeymen and all of that in the trades many, many centuries ago, is because you had to go and learn under one person first. And then from there you journeyed around and learned from as many as you could to hone your own skills and then open up your own shop and thus be your own master, who then passes on what you've learned, that accumulation to others. And if we could show a little breath control, if we could remind boys, breathe through the nose, breathe down low into the belly, and know that it's okay to feel, I think we would be in a much better place.

Host: So beautifully said, Jose. Yes, thank you so much, and I could talk with you guys for so much longer. We can do a part two for sure. Thank you so much. Jose, Jason, Andrew, what a beautiful, vulnerable and holistic conversation we've had. I think this would benefit so many people who tune in and try to really understand how sacred men's work is and how inspiring it is to hear from the man's perspective talk about healing and integrating and shifting the collective consciousness from being asleep to awake. It takes so much bravery and courage and motivation to keep going and to keep fighting the good fight. And it takes discipline. So thank you guys so much for joining me on this episode. And where can people connect with you and see all of your content?

Jason Lange: You can keep up with me the men's groups. I run programs, I run podcasts, [email protected]. so it's not.com but.men. So you can find me. You can find me on TikTok. TikTok is where I've run most of my. I'll give it to you in text. It's called. It's un projeta queteje, which basically translates as weaving, profit. It's a whole plane of words. You can find me there. And also in Spotify, I have a podcast called Historias de la Versin, which is like Stories from the Harlequin or the Harlequin story. That's the little thing that we did when the pandemic hit and everyone was depressed. Tedx. I wanted that. I didn't want them to tell you guys how beautiful you are. There you go. Take that, you healthy man.

Host: Yeah. Thank you. Awesome. So.

Jason Lange: And yeah, you could find me. I have a podcast that I've just started, Taoist Dude. You could find that on RSS.com that Taoist dude. You could also read some of the things that I post through threads at JMDCM and also on Instagram @jmdc.em. but I also have a website if you're wanting to work through some issues that you're stuck in. And that's risetohuman.com.

Host: Fantastic. Thank you so much, guys, for joining me on the podcast. And I'm sure our listeners will be jotting notes and connecting to their inner, inner boy, and hopefully they're going to work through some things and become better humans on this planet. So thank you guys so much.

Jason Lange: Thank you, thank you.

Host: Thank you. Thank you, guys.