The Masculinity Crisis: Why Men Are Suffering In Silence | Jason Lange | Beyond The Claptrap Podcast

Jason Lange: Most guys are craving two things. A deep sense of purpose in life, knowing that their presence matters, and they are impacting their community, their family, their culture, the planet in some positive way, and a deep sense of belonging. Something about the current societal setup is leaving men feeling even more isolated and alone.

Host: We live in the era of what might be the equivalent of pre feminist movement, but for men, and perhaps we're gonna need that equivalent of the feminist movement for men.

Jason Lange: In terms of this movement for men, one of the most potent things we can do is take responsibility for our pain. For a lot of men, the struggle they come to me in is they don't know how they're supposed to be in the world because there's been so little modeling of what a healthy masculinity is. Most guys, if they're lucky, they get one of three imprints around what a man can be. What do healthy, growth oriented women want and need from a man? Guess what? They want a man who is relationally present. That's it.

Host: Jason, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Jason Lange: Yeah, excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Host: Jason, this conversation around men's problems and men's mental health is something that I'm increasingly bringing close to my heart at this point. You're either super concerned about men or you think the whole men's mental health issue is a joke. And I would love to hear from an expert such as yourself. Where do you see the social paradigm shifting around this topic at the moment?

Jason Lange: Yeah, so, I mean, there's so many things swirling together here when it comes to men, but the stats are pretty real and unavoidable that a lot of men are in pain and a lot of men are suffering. And, you know, here in the States, men account for 80% of suicide deaths. It's three, three and a half to four times higher than women overall. In most developed nations, women are now earning nearly 60% of all bachelor's degrees here in the U.S. so they're getting educated at a higher shift as the job market has changed and shifted away again. You know, it's different in various countries, but here in the States where I'm at, away from manufacturing, where men tended to hold a lot of those jobs, it's just hitting men hard. And then social isolation in mental health is a big deal. Right. Studies have shown men have fewer close friends men than previous generations, with nearly 15% of men as of a couple of years ago having no close friends, up from 3%, you know, back in like 1990. And, you know, all this Stuff basically kind of swirls together that men are in pain. And that in itself is controversial for some people because it's. Well, why do men have the right to be in pain? They've been the ones to subjugate and dominate for so many years. And that's true. Right. But one thing I've become very passionate about recently is it does no good to rank pain that, oh, my God, your pain's better than my pain. Just here's the truth. And why I care about this is I think it's one of the most potent leverage points we have in the world right now to support men in their pain, because healthy men tend to get into healthy relationships, tend to create healthy families, which create healthy kids, which are one of the best things we can do, right, for the. For the world, really. And men just aren't given the tools these days for how to thrive in this changing landscape. So I'm not one of those guys that's going to push for, you know, we got to go back to 1950s style masculinity. The challenge is we're being asked to evolve as men right now. Just like, hey, hey, women were asked to evolve and come out of the home and get into the workplace and have their own bank accounts and have rights and can vote. All that stuff is great. The challenge with men is our arc of growth is just a little bit behind, paradoxically. And, you know, the 60s and the. The kind of hippie movement and free love. There was a little bit of a change there for men. Could grow out your hair, you know, could be more artistic, have feelings and whatnot. But the next wave of men's work didn't really hit till the 90s with Robert Bly and the kind of mythopoetic movement and the creation of the Mankind project. But even that dwarf just is nothing compared to what we're starting to see now in that men do want to do something differently. And for a lot of men, the struggle they come to me in is they don't know how they're supposed to be in the world because there's been so little modeling of what a healthy masculinity is. Most guys, if they're lucky, get one of three imprints around what a man can be. There's kind of the traditional macho man. Hey, I just go for what I want and I take what I want and I dominate. And obviously, we've all seen countless examples of the damage that kind of man can cause, which really, in my mind, is just a man who's disconnected from his heart, who prioritizes self above all else and honestly just isn't very sophisticated. Then there was a kind of a reaction to that, which is the birth of the so called nice guy. And one of my mentors, Dr. Robert Glover, kind of wrote the famous book no More Mr. Nice Guy, which is unique in that every year it sells more copies than the last year since it came out. Yeah, yeah, it's really incredible. And that was. Well, I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be the CRO Magnum man. I don't want to cause harm. And so I want to be a safe man. Right. I want to know how to connect to people emotionally. I don't want to just be reactivity and highly impulsive and trying to, you know, get notches on my belt with women and that kind of stuff. The problem with that guy is he often has no capacity to set boundaries, often is drowning in sexual shame and has a hard time really standing up for himself in life. And then the other one I've just noticed, and this is kind of, maybe more of another variation of what I kind of call the grandfather generation, is the kind of stoic man, which is the guy who just shows up, maybe does his job, is present in his family, but is mostly silent, just holds it all inside, might have gone off to war, has never even told his children about what happened, just deeply keeps it all inside, but is often suffering. And all three of those archetypes are totally failing men right now. And so there's increasingly high mental health issues. There was another study I saw that blew my mind up in Canada, which was that basically of men who attempted suicide, nearly 60% of them had actually reached out for some kind of help in the year before, meaning they asked for a therapist or something. They did reach out in some way to their doctor or something, but what they got back didn't quite meet them where they needed to be met. And so I want to be super clear. This does. I'm not saying I'm anti therapy or anything. I'm actually hugely pro therapy for everybody, particularly men. But the point being that something about the current societal setup is leaving men feeling even more isolated and alone. And that's where a lot of the work I'm super passionate about of getting men into community and men's groups in particular, which offer something different than a one on one coaching or a one on one therapy relationship do that. There's just this tidal wave in men. And then, you know, just one last thing to kind of Add even more challenge is there's all the technological change that's happening. So work from home, social media, and even just lifestyle here in, you know, developed Western countries like I'm in, where you can order all your food off grubhub or Amazon and never even see another human being coming out of the COVID pandemic, where isolation went up even more. It's very easy as a man, if you wanted to, to live your life and not connect with any human beings, period. And so that's kind of the base of everything that's happening right now. And then I think what particularly makes men more susceptible to this is because of the cultural pressures of. Of what I called, you know, I didn't come up with it, but what's known as the man box, right? The set of expectations of you have to be this certain way and check these boxes, otherwise you're not a man, right? So there's this huge pressure to never ask for help, to be invulnerable, emotions are weak, have sex with many, as many people as you can. You know, there's just this endless list of stuff. But what that does is it makes us more susceptible to isolation and these new challenges, even in the technological realm, because we're taught from a young age, don't ever share something vulnerable inside with another man. Otherwise you're blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So all this comes together and men are just suffering?

Host: Yeah, well, man, there's so much to unpack there. At first glance, it seems that men, at the moment, we live in the era of what might be the equivalent of pre feminist movement, but for men. And perhaps we're gonna need that equivalent of the feminist movement for men to complete this cycle. But what do you think is the next step we should take? Because this revolution might, if it happens, which eventually is going to happen, it will take many forms and it's going to evolve. But what do you think is the next right step for men to move towards the right direction?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think the good news is, from where I stand, it's happening. So I've been in the world of men's work and men's groups for about 20 years now. I was in my mid-20s, in the kind of early to mid-2000s. And when I got into this work, if I. If I was to come to anyone and talk about men's groups, at most they would associate it maybe with two things. One, some kind of AA or recovery group, and two, some kind of church or Bible group. And both of those things are extremely impactful and I'm very glad they exist in the world. But since then, we're seeing. I am quite literally seeing, even in the last five years, a huge upswell of men's work and men's groups that are really about men getting the tools and training we need to be effective and healthy in modern day. And that, again, a lot of it for a lot of. For many men that I work with is we just haven't received the training of how to be in this day and age. And for a lot of us guys, that even starts with just learning about our emotions and how to handle them, right? This massive gap for so many men, right When. When I was coming up, I was so disconnected and dissociated from my body. If someone asked me, you know, how you feeling? I could say, fine, good or bad? That was like, the range.

Host: I can relate.

Jason Lange: Yeah, right. That was the range.

Host: That's the range.

Jason Lange: And then I had no idea how to talk about that. So it made it really hard to get the help I needed or to have meaningful relationships. And so, you know, I've been on this kind of high horse lately that in terms of this movement for men, one of the most potent things we can do is take responsibility for our pain. And all that means is whatever's not working in our lives, oftentimes emotionally rooted things that have connections to our early childhood and what we didn't get from our family system or traumatic events that happened, we take responsibility for. Hey, I never asked for these things to happen to me. I didn't ask to be put in a culture like this right now. But it's up to me to deal with it. Nobody can do it for me. And so I gotta go out and get the help and get the tools and get the training I need to learn how to regulate my nervous system and be able to show up in the ways I want to show up in the world. And lo and behold, what I've discovered is that's a lot more fun when you're getting deeply connected to other men and you're not doing it alone, that it can actually become a transformative, communal experience that gives us something. You know, one thing I've seen in the hundreds of men I've worked with at this point is most guys are craving two things. A deep sense of purpose in life, knowing that their presence matters, and they are impacting their community, their family, their culture, the planet in some positive way. And a deep sense of belonging that I belong here, right? I belong. I am part of a system, a community A web. And lo and behold, once again, I'm going to be ringing this redundant bell. What I found is men's groups are one of the most potent ways to give men both of those things. Because suddenly my presence really matters to these other men I'm connecting with deeply. I get a sense of belonging from being connected to them and a sense of purpose, because if I'm not there, it impacts the men I'm with. And when we have both of those things, something I've just seen something come back alive for men and a sense of hope and, oh, okay, I can make a difference in the world. I do have people that care about me. And it really just starts to change the game for guys. So I think, you know, the good news is I think the men's movement has started. And again, we had the first wave in the 90s, and then, oddly enough, the. The second wave in the 2000s, which only in retrospect, I think looks like it. And, you know, had a lot of less than savory elements, though. But the roots of it were actually in the pickup movement of the kind of early to early to mid 2000s, where all these men who hadn't been giving the training or tools for. Yeah, how do I just create a relationship with someone I like in this radically different world? We're going to these pickup boot camps, which a lot of them are pretty shady, but some of them were the very first sparks of men who were like, hey, I can change, and sometimes I need help to change, and I want to be a better man. And a few of the, you know, kind of big names in that world went on to deepen even beyond pickup, to kind of lay the seeds for some of what is now the men's work movement, which, like I said, is just growing more and more every year, in my opinion. And the experience I'm having in the work I do with men, and, you know, I'm a little saturated because I'm in the world, but, you know, you can hardly go a day or two now without seeing an article in the New York Times or the Post or something about men's mental health, how they're having a hard time making friends, and how they're suffering. Like, it is getting more press now than I think it's ever gotten before. True.

Host: I think I live in the uk so it is also, you can see something very similar to what is happening in the US and obviously, men are very isolated, and obviously we lack that sense of community because in a way, we feel like we've Been cast out of society because of this demonization of we have to pay for whatever previous men have done. But turning the blind eye to this man's issues, who is going to benefit? Because at the end of the day, men are still the backbone of society. And if they are increasingly killing themselves or checking out, they don't want to go to work, they don't take pride in the work, which means everything will start to deteriorate and do a bad job. It's not helping anyone. But I want to go back to what you said. You mentioned how men realized they can be good men. I'd like to know, what is your definition of a good man?

Jason Lange: Yeah, number one, I think I already said a big component of it is he takes responsibility for his pain. So, you know, and this is a challenge for guys because even in the men's work movement, there is. It's so easy to point the blame out there. Oh, women are doing this to us. So. And so is doing this to us. Oftentimes these are complex systems that are overwhelming to consider. And again, the thing I want to point to is only we can take responsibility for my life's not going how I want and I don't feel well. Now, there might be sometimes someone was to blame, right? A parent or someone, but only we have the tools to do something about it. Right? To actually make that change. And so that's one of the big things I see in men now. And not all men want to take that on, to be totally honest, because it's not easy work. It's uncomfortable. And it goes against all the stereotypes we're fed as men of what it means to get help, to go to therapy, to get coaching, to look inside of ourselves, to look at our patterns and to frankly, just feel emotionally and process some of this stuff and be able to move from unconscious. Right. Reactivity to conscious response. Right. Which means we have to get intimate with our pain. That simple. You know, I'd even go, this is a little more controversial in a sense, where I even go a little further, where it's not even taking responsibility just for our pain, but it is not like dying on the sword of shame, but it is about taking responsibility for the men that came before. Hey, I didn't do that. I wasn't responsible for that. But if I don't step in to do my work and take a stand for what healthy men can be, who will? Like, literally, who will. Who's going to clean up the messes? And there is something potent for us men saying, you know, what, we're not toxic. Masculinity is not toxic. But there have been pathological men who have caused damage before. And we are actually one of the most potent ways to push back against that, to say, you know what guys, that shit doesn't fly anymore. I'm not cool with that. And I want to do my part to make amends for what happened before. Because frankly, not all men are like that. And man, men who are willing to step into that, I mean, it is a deep thing, but it is so potent and it is so inspiring when I see men who say, you know, yeah, it's not my fault this thing happened, but I'm going to step in and do what I can, whether it's with the environment, kids, the feminine or other men. I mean, this is the other thing too is, you know, the word's so loaded. People get all triggered by it these days. But you know, the patriarchy, so to speak, what a lot of times we don't talk about is it hurts men just as much as anyone else, particularly young boys. Right? Again, there's this way you have to be. You know, I was just talking, I was just on a call with a group I run and there was one man who shared a story of something that happened to him when he was young and kind of bullied in some pretty heavy ways. And he had carried that for 30 years, had not talked to anyone about it, because where he was from, you don't get help, you don't wallow in your pain, you just grit your teeth and move through. And this had a severe impact on this man's well being from the time he was a boy to now. And he's just now, right, getting to talk about it and release and let go of that. And that was an example of the culture of masculinity, which was actually upheld by other men around him, was so damaging to him. So there's that taking responsibility for our pain and then, you know, what I would say is doing the work to know how to regulate our nervous system, to know how to communicate what's happening inside of us and to create the community we need to thrive. These are kind, you know, these are not like super complex things. But to me, that's what it's really about. And it's about unwinding this belief we have to be like perfect as men. I think that's another thing I love about men's groups and shifting men towards a growth orientation in life where no man's ever going to be 100% perfect or always be integrity or never hurt anyone else. But what matters is what do we do about it? When things don't go how we want, how can we mend, how can we repair, how can we forgive ourselves even. And a good group can really help men do that. And it starts to free guys up, frankly, over time. I've seen of, oh, wait, I don't have to be afraid to make mistakes. Like, it's okay to go try some stuff in the world and then if it doesn't work out, I can work with that. Right. I'll pause there, see if that's kind of planning for you.

Host: That's very good. And as you said, it is not very complex. But the thing is, no one ever teaches us these things as we grow up. We all, we've been told go to school, memorize these facts, and then go to life. But no one taught us how to emotionally regulate. No one taught us how we should show up as men for ourselves and for society and for our community. No one taught us many things. Or for example, dating is something we are not being taught. And now you hear that a lot of men are checking out of dating completely. And do you think that is a phenomena, a temporary getaway, so to say, for men? Or is it something we should be very alarmed of, this checking out of men from dating?

Jason Lange: Yeah. Well, I think again, there's a lot of this points to problems with technology. And so, right. Every year, it's like the amount of people that meet through online dating goes up and the amount of people that meet offline goes down, frankly. And while there's some great gifts to that, there's a lot of challenges. Right. One of which I don't have the exact stats on this, so you'll have to forgive me, but Logan Ury, who's the data scientist for Hinge, was, was sharing some stats. It was something absurd that like on dating services, when you can filter for certain profile attributes, it's something like 90% of women immediately will go in and set a height filter of minimum 6ft tall. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But only something like 8 or 9% of men are actually over 6ft tall. So because of how some of these apps are set up already, already something like 90% of men are excluded.

Host: We said right away. Right.

Jason Lange: So. And then it's this thing where the 10% of men that do kind of meet these certain attributes basically get all of the attention. So if you're in that 10% of men, you're like, life's never been better. You have an endless Stream of women who are interested in you. But if you're not, this is where guys I work with, you know, two years, maybe 50 first dates, thousands of swipes, it takes quite a bit to even get one date. And again, it's because of, they're being filtered out a lot of times before they've even had a chance to meet someone. And that really does wear men down. I've just seen it. It's just like, what is the point? I've put so much energy into this and I have no control. And so I do work pretty deeply with men where I say online dating should never be more than 20% of your life force or energy or attention. Exactly.

Host: And the men who get all this attention on online dating quite likely are the men who don't really need that attention on online dating because if you're tall and have you're financially well off and maybe good looking, you can just go out and have success. So yeah, I can see how you. We're getting increasingly more played out of the game in a way.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: And then you have this. Have you seen these recent viral videos of these women complaining how they're not being approached in public anymore and how they would even settle for a construction man's cat call at the moment? Have you seen those on X?

Jason Lange: I've heard of those, yeah.

Host: You heard of those. So, so from one side. So do you think should. Shouldn't be approaching women in public more for their own good so they don't end up being, they don't end up playing video games by themselves? Because men, we are very logical beings and we've given women exactly what they asked for, to be left alone in public and not approach them. But if we do that, and on the other side, 90% of men can get a single match on dating apps, then what's going on? Should we maybe go back to approaching women in public? What's the best, what's the best move that I see?

Jason Lange: I mean, obviously I can't speak for women here. I work with some women around dating and relationships and I can tell you those women do want to be approached. They do appreciate it. It's not the approach that's the problem, it's how they do it. And so this is the baby with the bathwater that's happened over the last decades where many men have internalized our sexuality is bad versus it's not that it's bad, it's what we do with it, period. Right. So there's nothing toxic about male sexuality. There are toxic ways to Relate to it and objectify women that absolutely we've had to push back against. There are totally men who objectify women and see them as objects and it's right. They don't give a shit what's happening inside for the woman, what the challenge is there. There was so much, you know, just with everything in life, something happens, it's not so great. The pendulum swings to the other side. That causes problems. So then the pendulum has to kind of swing back. And so there's been this demonization of, you know, we don't want to make a woman feel uncomfortable or unsafe or all of these things that have taught some men to feel shame about their sexuality and be afraid to approach a woman in public essentially. And, you know, definitely count me in to the, the group that's. Yeah, it's okay to have it come back. All it requires as us men is to be attuned, right? The women I know who I've talked to about this, it is not being approached that makes them feel uncomfortable. It's when there's a man who approaches them who is so misattuned or honestly doesn't even care that he ignores their nos or their signals. That's it. That's when it gets uncomfortable. If a guy approaches and say, hey, you look beautiful today. And she's like, thank you. And then she turns away and moves on. No problem. If that guy follows her or gets mad at her or, you know, these very real things that absolutely happen to women. I've heard so many stories that it's just like, are you kidding me?

Host: Crazy?

Jason Lange: Because yeah, men's, you know, for some men, their self esteem gets tied up and, you know, what does she think of me or whatever that might be. But when it's done from an open heart and an attuned heart where we're reading her signals, right? If I say something to her at the coffee shop and she puts her headphones back on, she's not open to deeper connection. That's it. Okay. I don't have to be have a whole meltdown about it. I'm just going to let her be. Right? But other times I might approach and then she turns to me, okay, there's a connection there. We can chat with each other. And I think this is a very real skill that's not even just based on attraction, but about talking to other human beings that is atrophying in our culture right now. And again, you know, the other big thing, you know, we are starting to.

Host: See.

Host: Yeah, yeah, I want to go back to the AI thing you mentioned, because that's that would be one of the biggest challenges we're going to face very soon. And you don't have to go that far back into the, that far into the future. You can just look at Japan. Yeah, I think it's 40 to 50% of men 20 to 30 years old are virgins. And the technology there is simply. They're very isolated as a society which we are becoming in the West. They have these AI girlfriends, although it's not even as smart as AI, just simply online hentai, whatever, girlfriends. And they have one, if not the biggest population decline at the moment. And the whole society is getting destroyed because of this simple issue that men have completely checked out. That's the definition of checked out now out there, a super intelligent AI that will just put you into handcuffs, metaphorically or even literally speaking, and you will never come out of the room. It's insane the effect this can have on society. Super alarming, super alarming. And if you spend too much time online, you will, you will come across plenty of content where women. I ask the question, do we need men? And there are these compilations of videos where they say we don't need mend. There is a case to be made for what sort of women give that answer for sure. But regardless, the clips go viral and they leave a bad stain in the social paradigm. Where do you think this is coming from, this narrative that we don't need men and how is it affecting men?

Jason Lange: So it comes from what I would say is evolution. And so what I would point to there is maybe a little bit more nuanced than even some of those women are aware of of we don't need men to provide for us in that 1950s way. So the script and I work again, the other type of man I work often with is a man in his 40s, 50s or 60s who followed the script many of us were given from the previous generation of it is enough as a man. If you go work your butt off and provision and provide financially for your family. There was a time and place where that was enough. He works hard, he puts food on the table. That was enough to be a successful husband, a successful father and a successful man. That all got shattered right when, when women's liberation came, they left the workplace many times. Now women are making more money than men and they do not need that anymore. So that is true. I do not need a man who literally just puts money in the bank account. And this is where I will often see guys. You know, it's a huge threshold. They raise the kids Empty nest syndrome. They move out. Wife's like, we haven't had a relationship in 20 years. I'm not in love with you. This doesn't work for me. And he's like, what the hell? I did my part right? I just worked. I worked 60 hours a week for the last 20 years. So DA da, da, da, da. And he feels burned by that. But the honest truth is that is not enough anymore. And this is the hard, you know, pill for some men to swallow of it's not enough and it's not enough for those women. And so then the question becomes, well, what do they, what do healthy, growth oriented women want and need from a man? Guess what? They want a man who is relationally present. That's it. Who can be relationally present with them and knows how to lead in a healthy masculine way. Not because we're supposed to dominate women, but in some sense, you know, my wife is a very powerful woman. Harvard business degree, has worked in corporate world, has worked in the entrepreneurial world. She is a total go getter. And paradoxically, because she spends so much of her day getting it or raising our kids, which a lot of people don't realize is actually pretty masculine thing, you're holding structure all the time for kids. You're managing things, pushing things. It's not just this kind of airy fairy thing that we often think. It's a great gift to her. When I do come in and I say, hey, I got things tonight. You just relax. You do this not because she can't do it, but because it's a gift for her to not have to do it in the moment. And so there's so much more complexity that's coming out now in a man who is emotionally literate, knows how to communicate, and can actually be present. If you can do those three things as a man, women, the feminine will respond. And a lot of men particularly have a hard time with those because they weren't trained to know what they're feeling at all. They have no idea how to communicate it. And oftentimes we are so wound up in our own paradigms of burden as men, very rarely is our attention actually on who we're with. Most guys I know and I'll out myself here, we're walking around constantly with this equation, am I winning? Am I losing? Am I winning? Am I losing? How do I win this? I'm losing this, how do I win this? How do I lose this? Our attention is almost always on our thoughts. That's it. Most men, their attention is almost Always on their thoughts. When your attention's on your thoughts, you're not present. Most men don't want to not have their attention on their thoughts because when you become present, guess what you have to do? You have to feel emotion. That's what terrifies, that's what terrifies so many men. But when we learn to just handle that and work that, and these are very real things you can do with your nervous system. Not only do we become more attractive to women, but we become better fathers, we become more trustable to people around us. I've seen guys get raises, make more money. Like this is a huge skill and capacity we can develop now. But it does take effort. It does take saying, hey, there's things I don't know how to do and I need help learning how to do them. And lo and behold, what we can provision for our families and our women in a different way, which isn't so much about the outer world, but which is about the inner world. I know how to be radically present with my wife, to support her in her emotional duress, where, guess what? I don't have to fix anything. So many guys, I just fix it. Okay, how about fix it how? Oh, you're feeling bad. I want to help you feel better. That's like the biggest mistake most men make. Just be present, be present and listen.

Host: Man, I love everything what you're saying. I think you have captured men's problems and what is going on at the moment very, very nicely. I think first of all, I would love to chat more. I should bring you back before part two. I have so many questions already.

Jason Lange: Yeah, let's do it right.

Host: Jason, last question. What do you want to be remembered for?

Jason Lange: The. My mission in life is every man should be in a men's group. It's very simple to get men connected to other men. And that I really, really believe in both from my own personal experience and now the many, many men I've supported that when men are in groups, the world, their lives, they just get better. It's a very easy, in some sense, low hanging fruit for how we can kind of nudge the world towards more goodness, truth and beauty and really set men up to thrive, which then sets everyone else up to thrive, right? That men's work is not at the expense of women's work. Men's work is human work. And we're all just trying to grow and evolve in a constantly changing world and we all need different tools to do it. So I think a men's group is an incredible one for men to do it in and that, if nothing else, just hope it lights something up in guys and gets them to start looking in their area or to create something or whatever they might need.

Host: That's beautiful, man. Jason, you're doing great work. Keep up whatever you're doing. You're doing great. And thank you so much for chatting.

Jason Lange: Yeah. So glad to be here. Thanks for having the conversation.