S2E29: Healing in Brotherhood: A Conversation with Jason Lange | Therapy is Dope with Alicia and Laura

Jason Lange: Hey, guys, we are back.

Host: And today we have Jason Lange with us. He is a men's coach and group facilitator. And we're going to find out what that means today.

Jason Lange: Hello. Hello. Glad to be here.

Host: Yeah. So what you guys don't know and why Alicia is giggling is I was starting to ask questions off record to learn more about what Jason does, but she wanted to make sure that we captured all that here. So my initial question, now that we're recording it, can be asked, what do you coach men honor? What do you facilitate?

Jason Lange: Yeah. Men come to me from all walks of life and often the big three. Right. That they want support on is relationships, purpose and work in the world and health and vitality. And what I really work with men on is the pathway to get there is often pretty contradictory compared to what we're taught. And it starts with embodiment, actually getting into our bodies, learning to feel them, learning to become attuned to them. In that one of the many reasons most men don't like to do that is, guess what? When you're in your body, you tend to have to feel more. You feel emotions more. You're actually more present to what's happening inside you. And for many men, just the way our culture has played out, most men are not taught to be in their bodies, which by extension then means to be in their feelings. Because in the work I do, and I imagine the work you do, emotions almost always start as sensations in our bodies. And so if we're cut off from that, we're often cut off from all the feeling. And so men are often under trained in terms of being in their bodies and what their inner experience is. And then, so when hard things start to happen, they don't know how to identify it, let alone what do I do about it. So what do most men do? We either live up in our heads and just stay ruminating, or we turn to things outside of ourselves to try to change our uncomfortable state. Drugs, alcohol, sex, porn, overworking, you name it. Even certain types of sports which you think get you in your body. But there's a way plenty of men use. You know, I know, I know plenty of distance runners who, you know, the platitude's kind of true. It's like, what are you running away from? And they're like, yeah, totally. So, you know, there's lots of angles to that work, but I really help men get back in their bodies. And then the second big piece I really support men is and get connected to each other and leave behind this paradigm of, you know, we kind of call it the. The myth of the lone wolf, the Marlboro man, particularly here in the States, this kind of archetype of the strong, invulnerable man who. Who doesn't need anything from anyone and never, ever shows weakness or vulnerability. Right. And that damages men long term. And then when we. Yes, exactly, exactly. Massive repercussions. And then, you know, the stats are pretty bleak, right? It's like 80% of suicide deaths these days are men. I think it was the stat I saw in 1990. It was 3% of men had no close friends. Last time they checked in 2021, it was up to 15%. And with social media and AI and work from home, it's. It's going up. Like, it's. It's actually going up. So I particularly am passionate about men's groups as a way to start to bridge that gap and teach men that men aren't just your competition, they can be your greatest allies. And as you learn to get connection from other men, it'll improve your intimate relationship. It'll improve, literally, it improves your health, it can improve your earning potential. Like, all these powerful things in that it's a unique thing. And, you know, I love talking to people in your line work therapists, because it's different, right? The gift you can give or you get in a therapeutic relationship is different than what you can get in a peer men's group. Yeah, right. They're not in opposition to each other. I try to explain to guys, I'm like, it's cross training. You know, sometimes you're playing tennis and you're getting really good, and then you find, oh, actually, I got to work my, like, calves and do this other thing and prove my flexibility. And then everything gets better. And so I have found, you know, I'm a coach in the other pathway I've just seen, let's just say, is for whatever reason, I'm. I'm working hard to change this. But, you know, men are a little more open to coaching than they are therapy. Somebody got, oh, no. Therapy means you're broken or something's wrong with you. And deconstructing that, you know, is something I'm pretty passionate about. It's like, well, you go to the gym to work out your body. You got to work out your heart, you got to work out your head. And you don't just go to the gym when you're injured, right? You go to the gym to get more fit. And so I. I feel these three things work in different ways, but they all work together. In the strides I've particularly seen, you know, men can do deep work in therapy, but then they don't necessarily have anyone to practice with if they're not in a relationship yet. Right. They're learning all these things. But a men's group can be a safe place to actually start to practice. Hey, here's what I'm feeling. Here's what I think. Here's where I'm unsure. Here's where I need help. One of the most powerful capacities, you know, I have to open up men to, like, hey, it's okay to ask for help. Like, in fact, you're going to get more done. The better you get at asking for help, you're going to become more effective. So that's all kind of swirled in there in terms of, you know, what I. What I love to support men.

Jason Lange: Totally. Yeah. It's. So first off, men's group is, you know, if we're like, hey, do you meditate? And you're like, yeah. Well, then it's like, well, what kind? Right? There's, like, an infinite variety, and there is an aspect of that to men's groups that certain men's Groups focus on different things, but there are some common deep structures. And the first part I use to kind of tell this story is how most of us men are cultured to relate to other men is through triangulation. So me and you put our attention on a third thing, us, tv, a sports game, fishing, inactivity, talking about car parts, whatever that might be. And our bonding comes through that we both put our attention on the same thing and we start to feel closer. And there is a time and place for that. Those kind of groups, those kind of activities, those kinds of clubs are great. Every human being needs them, not just men, but they don't hit something else, which is, and I hear this all the time from men. Okay, yeah, I just spent the night or I spent the weekend with my buddies and they don't even know I'm about to get divorced. My wife wants to leave me, right? I come back from the weekend and in some sense I feel even more alone because there's so much I'm holding in that I did not know how to talk to them about. So a men's group at its most simple as I, as I often talk about is it's what happens when we take that attention, turn it onto each other. I'm here with you right now. What's alive for you in your body right now? Where are you in pain? What's going on in your life? What do you want? Where do you feel stuck? What's important? And it's, it's a different, right, It's a different, different vibration than a lot of men have ever experienced. And the thing that often shocks a lot of guys and people when I tell them about men's group is once men are given the container and they feel safe, turns out they have a lot to say and a lot to share. And that changing of the attention point is really the main thing is we're going to put our attention on each other. And one of the great gifts I see in men's group is helping mental get more directly connected like we've been talking about to their felt body experience in the moment. So just this is actually what I'm feeling in my life right now. I cannot go another day in my job or this thing that's happening in my relationship. I can pretend I can maneuver, but it's too much. I'm so sad right now. And then they get to feel that and then, you know, things often come on the other side of that. But you know, groups can focus on, you know, there are faith based groups, there are Recovery based groups or probably the, you know, 20 years ago if you said men's group, people would slot it into one of those two most often. Is it like an AA group or is it your church study group? And those are great. And they still exist, but there's this new thing happening that's neither of those, which is kind of the groups I specialize in, which is just men you want to go deep with that you want to get really intimate with who will both support you. Yes. When you're knocked off center and hold you accountable when there's something you want to move forward in your life and they will track you and you will build friendships and bond and that's it. Right, that, that's kind of the basis of it. There's lots of manifestations then in terms of what groups focus on and how you can relate. But that's really the spirit of it. And you know, one thing I learned last year that was super interesting that you all may already know was just the, you know, there are differences. There are male and female differences just hormonally and sometimes how the bodies work, our bodies work. And with men, we, it turns out we have more, I guess, receptors for vasopressin, which is like kind of a cousin of oxytocin. And they come from the same ancestor hormone. And the way vasopressin works is it's still a bonding hormone. So it's how you get bonded. But the way it works is you bond by doing hard things together. So it's like there's a, there's a problem. We move through it together now. We're brothers for life. Right? We are in it. We are in it. And, you know, there's a lot of examples often of veterans that come back from service and they have this deep compulsion to keep going back and serving and they don't want to leave their buddies and their, their men and women behind. And those relationships often, you know, last a lifetime. Those are like profound connections. And I think this is a piece of it that so many men are craving. And you know, the big shift that's happening right now is we used to have to go out, I don't know, into the, into the wild to, to face the unknown and go through dangerous things. But the shift that men are being asked for right now is that's now an internal journey.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: Okay. We're going to get together and we're going to face your demons that you've been carrying your whole life. Most likely your dad carried, your grandfather carried. Like this stuff goes Back. And in moving through these life challenges together, men get deeply bonded and feel a level of belonging and connection and purpose that I. I have just found. So many men are completely malnourished on these days. They just don't know where they fit in or where they belong or where they're important. And a men's group can bring a lot of. A lot of that.

Host: Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. Like, the veteran example. I've experienced it, seen it, and it makes so much sense. Even, like, sports teams who have gone through something hard together or. You know, I really noticed it with the hurricanes here. Like, I'm originally from Chicago, and when I first moved down here, there were certain culture shocks, and one of them was how outwardly public people are with their political opinion here versus in Chicago. Like, there's no. I mean, we live in apartments predominantly, so there's no yard to put the flyer in or whatever. So, like, it was just an adjustment. But seeing after the hurricanes, like, different people with, like, different hats on, supporting different people, like, pulling each other out of floods, like, it reminded me that despite our kind of superficial differences, like, when human needs come, we will show up for each other. And it actually made me very proud to live in Florida and, like, see my community building each other up, supporting each other, and really getting that neighborhood experience. So two questions. The triangulation makes perfect sense to me. Is that, like, a way that people could kind of mold into a men's group? Like, if they're wanting to create something like what you're talking about, where they live. If they start with, like, a, we work out together, and then that kind of come becomes more of a. And we learn to nourish our mind together. Like, how. Because one of the things you said is, like, they don't know how to talk about this stuff. So. Yeah, shed some.

Jason Lange: That's one of the most simple ways in that. There. There is some emergence in that in terms of hiking groups, walking groups. I think it's called F45 maybe is this thing where, like, people get together and work out first in the morning and then you kind of talk a little bit afterwards. So that's a good vector into this kind of thing, because without it, it's possible. But, you know, it does be. Because men are often just so lacking in the skills. Not necessarily their fault. They just aren't taught this. We aren't taught this. We aren't taught to value it. So we don't necessarily seek it if we don't know the structure to Bring it can. It can be hard to get to that depth. So, you know, like, the groups I lead and teach men to lead, I teach you the structure for, okay, here's how to run the meeting that is going to be conducive to creating safety and going under the hood in the ways you don't necessarily know how to do or. Left to our own devices, you know, us men will just kind of float up and talk about things that game that. The thing, the thing we read like it's. It's a safe place for us. And all that said, you know, I've been. I've worked with hundreds of guys, and many of them have been shocked at what happens. Even if it's just one buddy and they go out when they go first, so they actually, they don't wait and they say, hey, you know, I'm going to open up about something. And they open up about something. And not all men, because the truth is not all men are ready for that. But to a shocking extent, a lot of my clients I've worked with and men I've worked with have found they've been met. Like they, they. They were actually met, and then their body's like, oh, my God. Yeah, actually, this is going on for me, and I have that problem too. And they walk away from that so much more deeply. You know, I've had guys get more connected with men they've known for 20 years. In, like one night, just like, wow, we actually talked about what's going on. And now turns out there's even more that we can share and feel connected around than we even ever knew. So there is some skill building and there is some capacity, and it is one of the powers of getting into a group or starting a group that kind of planting that flag for, you know, agreements are really important. Okay, what are our agreements for the group that create that container and structure that really support men in going deep? You know, things like confidentiality and some basics that, oh, okay, I can talk about this stuff here, because otherwise I'm afraid I don't know. You know, so. And so who knows? My wife and it might go. And, you know, it takes, it takes that. It takes that. Those agreements to really create that. So activities can be a good vector for it. Um, and there's a lot of that showing up, I think, because it, it's just a way to grow it faster. And then just learning some tools to lead groups and bring. The structure of a group is. Is something I'm super passionate about, because I literally can't lead enough groups, right. There's just, there's endless men and only so many facilitators. So it's like, well, you guys gotta become the facilitators.

Host: Yeah, I was thinking, because.

Jason Lange: What I've.

Host: Noticed is that a lot of times men have better relationships with men when.

Jason Lange: They go to an all boys school. But I still think that even with.

Host: That, it's because the leadership is encouraging.

Jason Lange: That and teaching that and modeling that.

Host: And I think that we could do that outside of men only schools or male only classrooms. But you know, that's a whole other.

Jason Lange: Thing to tackle because our education system.

Host: Is just a whole other beast.

Jason Lange: Yeah. But I do wish that we taught.

Host: Emotional intelligence and communication and vulnerability and.

Jason Lange: Authenticity and all of those things in school. It would, it would benefit us so much.

Host: But then there's the, the problem of, and I'm curious how, how you guide men through this of when they do.

Jason Lange: Open up to each other if the.

Host: Other person isn't, let's call it safe.

Jason Lange: To do that with.

Host: How do we recover from that? You know, because I've heard stories of people like trying to open up to their friends and their friends are just like, yeah, that sucks.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's two things. I would say there are three things. One, it's always the risk, which is what makes it brave. Courageous leadership that I don't know where my friends are at, my family's at, until I try. The risk is they may not be able to hold it. They may have no desire to hold it. And that, that's the reality. That's why a lot of people don't want to do it. Right. I don't want to go first because what if they judge me or whatever? So there's that truth. And then the other two things are, I do think that's the power of a structured group with agreements is it creates a culture around this. And particularly something like a men's group I have seen is it starts to filter some of that because you're only coming. There's, there's a certain level of self selection that happens at that point. Um, that, you know, those guys just don't come to my groups honestly. Or, you know, they eventually do, but it's not until they've really hit a lot of pain and they're like, okay, this isn't working. Uh, I need to try something else.

Host: It's like a perfect container. Like I remember a comedian said this, that you know, he can say certain things from the stage in this environment because we all made an agreement when we paid for tickets to come and see him that, like, we are here to laugh, that this isn't, like, specific views and in a similar environment or container, so to speak, like, going to the men's group, there's, like, certain understandings of, like, protocol, if you will, in terms of, like, what's allowed and what's not allowed and how to be with each other, which I think is super valuable. And this is gonna feel like a tangent, but did you ever see the show? A million little things.

Jason Lange: I don't think I did.

Host: Okay, so spoiler alert. But this happens in like the first episode, so not that big of one. It's about a group of guys who became friends because they got trapped in an elevator together and one of them was hyperventilating. They all just became friends and they bonded over the fact that they're fans of the same hockey team and they had season tickets. And then the one that was like the most well off and, like, had the family, all the right things, he kills himself. And when he killed himself, one of the guys who, when he got the call that his friend killed himself, had just put a bunch of pills in his mouth to also kill himself and he like, immediately spit all those pills out.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: And the suicide really opened up the other three characters eyes to some of the challenges that, like, they weren't talking about with each other. And I kind of wanted to get into that a little bit because we aren't taught this. We really, really aren't. And men are not only not taught this, they're shamed about it, which makes it really scary and hard to want to be open. And so, like, the, the challenges are real. But I was wondering if you could shed some light on kind of the harm they're doing to themselves by not fighting for their own well being because they don't know what's on the other side.

Jason Lange: Right.

Host: It's just scary. So what is the cost they're doing right now and what do they get?

Jason Lange: Totally. I mean, it's, it's, it's real. Like, it's an actual health crisis for men. Right. I mean, the stats are pretty well known now. You know, that type of loneliness, it's as dangerous as packing a smoke of cigarettes a day. Men who have they. I saw one report last year. Men who heavily identify with kind of traditional, stoic, masculine ideals. Twice as likely to commit suicide. It's bleak. Right? And men get sick and they get lonely and then they become susceptible to all kinds of things. Right. Like that's It's a real thing in that. You know, the other stat that honestly blew my mind, I just learned like a month ago, was in Canada, they did a thing, and it was of men who committed suicide. 60% of them had reached out, some kind of support, mental help, but something still wasn't clicking. Right. And this is. Obviously, this is just anecdotal on my part, but I have seen this thing in men's groups happen where a man brings forward the. The actual. I have thought about ending it. Some days I get up and it's just so painful, and I. It just feels like it'd be easier to be out, to just be out. And the thing that happens when another man is sitting right next to him and looks him in the eye and says, yeah, I get it. I felt that too, and just rests in that with him. There's some kind of medicine in that, I think that is really important for men. And I see it start to, I don't know, unwind or change something of just like, oh, okay, I'm not even alone in that, right? Like, I'm with men who have felt that much pain that the alternative has felt, you know, like a possible decision. And we're just not taught to talk about this stuff. And it's the thing that blows men away once I. Once. Once we get them in a group is it's like all these men are walking around feeling alone and separate, and I'm the most messed up one, wishing I felt connected. And everyone's sitting around feeling the same thing. And then one man goes and is like, oh, my God, I have this whole problem. And then suddenly it's like, oh, me too. And. And then it's like the dominoes just fall and guys start opening and there's this just massive relaxation in the nervous system. I've seen that. It doesn't fix all the problems, but it just. It kind of normalizes being for some of these guys that, yeah, you're not different, you're not weird, you're not alone, and that it's okay actually to feel all that. And then the thing that really blows them away is when another man shares that with them. Turns out that really painful, dark, shameful thing, whatever it is, that's the thing that makes them feel the most connected to that man.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Yeah, that. And then when they're like, oh, wait, if that makes me feel connected to you, maybe all that stuff I think is too awful to ever share with anyone. What would happen if I bring. Boom. And then the bonds really start to form and men get to feel seen and feel again, that sense of belonging. I think a lot of guys are just missing right now that we can't quite get from our families, from our intimate partners, from coaches like me, because it's a different relationship when. When it's not totally peer based.

Host: I totally agree with that.

Jason Lange: When. When I've done.

Host: And I'm curious about your perspective on this. When you have a really vulnerable group where everybody's willing to get vulnerable, it's just an amazing energy and it feels so good.

Jason Lange: Even if, as the group facilitator, if.

Host: I'm not necessarily participating to the depth that they are, it just feels so good and amazing to be a part of. On the flip side, though, when you get a couple negative Nancy's, I'll say, or Nellie's for the fellas over here, the group can just be really hard and draining. And so I'm curious, how do you get these men to a point, like.

Jason Lange: Do you have to coach them for.

Host: A couple sessions first and then have them join the group or how do.

Jason Lange: You kind of navigate that? Yeah, I'll definitely get guys coming in that, you know, are highly skeptical or. One thing I'm. I'm pretty committed to in my work is we never push. It's just, we never push you to open more than you want and you know, like, good kind of nonviolent communication. I will bring a pretty hard boundary around owning your own experience. So, you know, it's got to come out in an I statement, like I am feeling, I am judging, whatever. And that'll often start to shift the energy, I would say. And then sometimes there's just working that guy like there's give. Putting attention on him if he's willing. Because oftentimes the guys, I've found like that they're either just really scared or have a lot of anger. A lot, A lot of anger. And sometimes this facilitator, you know, suddenly I'm in the role of authority or daddy or, you know, whatever it is, in all that unprocessed stuff of. No one ever listened to me. No one ever gave a. About my feelings, you know, can. Can come and I got to work that. And a lot of men, I found is once I'm like, yeah, bring it. Let's do it. Come on. You know, literally, sometimes it's hand to hand, push, scream, get it out. Then they relax and they're like, okay, now I'm in. You know, now I'm in. Like, you're not afraid of my reactivity? Or some. Or something. You know, I. I haven't found a better term for this, so I'm just gonna. Gosh, this. There. There's a swath of men. I think there's a developmental component to this that, you know, kind of come from more neglectful families. And they have a little bit of what I call fussy baby syndrome that they just. They need to be able to get angry at the. The people that are actually the safest. And they need to know that they're allowed to get angry, allowed to be fussy, and that I will stay in connection with you. Yeah, I have boundaries. I'm not going to let you hurt anyone. I'm not going to let you demean anyone. You know, we have our agreements, but it's okay. You can be cranky, you can be pissed off, you can not like what I'm doing. And it's wild once they feel met in that they're like, oh, something relaxes often. And not all those guys you speak about would have that, but it's one I've seen a lot in the last year, in particular of groups I've been running in that they've just, in a sense, never had somewhere safe where they got to bring forward their own deep feeling because they were always attuning to someone else or the family system, couldn't hold it or something like that. And then. So they come in and they're testing. They're actually testing the container, like, can you guys hold me? Is this all just bullshit? Are you going to reject me like everyone else? And. And I'm certainly not flawless or perfect, but when we. When we can kind of hold it long enough, something will often relax and they'll often be a huge release for that man of some kind. And then he's really in. He's like, wow, I just felt something here I've never felt anywhere else. And like, what do you guys need? You know, like, I'm here for it now. Like. And it's not always that pretty. You know, some people just aren't ready yet for the work or to open their journey. And I have to honor that and not. Not make them wrong for where they're at. And that sometimes it does end up someone is not an appropriate fit for a group.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: Because you're right. Cause some, you know, particularly in group work, the group will often kind of land in the place of least consciousness. So, you know, in any seminar group, you can spend the whole weekend around one little thing, and that's where boundaries and agreements do have to Come in that it's like, okay, hey, you know I love you, I want to support you. And it seems like this probably isn't the right medicine for you right now. There's nothing wrong with that. We just want to find the better, better medicine for you right now. And then, you know, I'll do my best to, to help a man do that.

Host: So do you teach people to facilitate, facilitate these groups?

Jason Lange: I do. So a big passion of mine is, I mean, the mission of my organization is basically every man should be in a men's group. I'm like, this is the point of leverage right now. I feel like culture could tip, families could tip, politics could tip. Because when men don't have that, we all have plenty of evidence for what disconnected men will do to the world. And so I have a family. I just got back from retreat, I'm leaving again. Like there's only so much I can lead. So my new passion is helping men learn the skills to be able to create this. Because a lot of guys will come to me and zoom. And this kind of stuff really does help now because it's more accessible to experience things where, you know, I'll talk to guys in rural areas and they're like, what are you talking about? There's nothing around here. Right. There's a gun club and that's it or whatever it might be. And so. But they can get start to get the taste and the experience online. And I'll run guys through things and then I will often gently encourage them. And if you can't find something in the area, guess what? There's another man out right there, right now in your geography, in your locale who's having the same problem. So it might be on you to plant the flag and create it. Right. Create the space in your local community, your church, your apartment, you know, whatever it is. And it's something I'm super lit up about these days because then it also, it gives men purpose.

Host: Yeah, right.

Jason Lange: There's like, there's something too. Yeah. My brothers actually do need me. Like I know how to run this group. I know how to send out the email. Like whatever it is, it creates a really nice momentum I've often seen in guys lives. And then there's just this feeling of wow, I get to grow together with other people now. So I do train men on that. And that's something I'm direct, I'm starting to direct more and more of my resources towards.

Host: That's great. I mean, this is such a giant need across everything. Like I Remember when my husband, I moved to Florida in 2020 so it was like prime Covid and we had just gotten married and I remember we had an argument and when we got to the Thanksgiving party, whatever, it was friendsgiving. I said, I'm like, I just need you to make some friends. Like, I need you to make some friends. And he's like, how is me making friends going to bring us closer? And I'm like, because you're trying to get everything from me. Like, you want me to be your wife, you want me to be your bro, you want me to be the, your bookie. Like you want me to be all these people to you, but that's not who I'm your wife. Like you want me to be this person, but when I'm this person, when I'm your bro, I'm not being the emotionally safe version that you need me to be for you. So like I need you to go make friends. And he did. And it made a huge difference. And what's great is not only is Alicia my best friend, but her husband is my husband's best friend. So it works out great.

Host: Yeah. Hearing you say it, my thought process was okay. He's aware and he's working on it. I cannot worry about it so much, you know, and that's key, because there's.

Jason Lange: Such a lack of awareness for men. Totally.

Host: I mean, even Sebastian, he's a unique dude, but he still isn't always aware of how he's feeling or why he's feeling something.

Jason Lange: So if.

Host: If he came to me and said I was. I'm feeling this, and I'm working on it. That sounds awesome. Okay, cool. Sign me up. Right?

Jason Lange: Yeah. You're, like, cool, let's party. Like, there's a. There's a different vibe. Right. It's, like, cool. Now we can connect. I want to support you in that. We can talk about it. But, you know, I. I think this is another thing I'm seeing with a lot of men in shifting relationship dynamics is, you know, one of the many things. I mostly work with heterosexual men, but I think this, you know, applies in a lot of areas, but particularly there for. For husbands, is of the many things our. Our wives and partners do is they are often doing the brunt of the emotional labor. Right. The. Oh, I feel there's a tension. There's something going on here. It's been three weeks. Okay. Now I have to bring it up, or I can tell he's upset. You know, are you. Are you. You know, something going on, and then you kind of draw it out of him. That's great. We all need that sometimes. But it's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot on a partner to always have to do that. So one of the ways I tell men is, you know, a lot of women these days, they don't need us to provide in the same way. They're crushing it. Got great jobs, make tons of money, totally have plenty of agency in the world. One way you can be a valuable partner is take the lead emotionally on those conversations. Don't wait. Hey, I've noticed. Feels like we've been a little distant this week. And I. I don't know. I have a sense maybe you're mad at me or there's something going on. Can we talk about it? Are you open to that? And boom. It's like, that's great leadership these days for men. And. And then our partners will often open up, and then we're, like, closer to each other. And you don't have to do it every time, guys. But I'm saying you could do it a lot more.

Host: Jason, I feel like you're stalking my house right now because it literally happened like yesterday and my husband came up to me and he was like, I feel like I've been trying to be more jokey with you. And you did ask me the other day for more sensitivity and a little bit more safe space. I'm sensing since my humor isn't landing, that maybe that's kind of impeding on it and like, you just want me to, like, be there. And it was crazy because it was probably the first time in our 10 year relationship that he ever picked up on something before I did, which I was so proud of him. And like, truth be told, it was freaking hot. I was like, hell yeah.

Jason Lange: Yes, right?

Host: I was like, oh, my God, I love this. And it's wild because we are at this kind of revolution, like, what does it mean to be a man? And it's not the same type of providing. Like, one of the things you mentioned about the anger with men and like, how they kind of test the group to make sure you can hold me, that this space can be there. I think it's like relational. I think it's men and I think it's women. It's something I've experienced myself. It's something I've witnessed. But it's permission to have all of your emotionality. Right? Because when we're growing up, our parents are doing the best they can, but they're human beings with their emotional limitations. So whether it's intentional or not, we all receive only certain emotions are allowed. So then we go out in the world and we try to relate to other people, but you can't really cut off your emotions. So what do we do? We try and pivot them to working or gambling or something else to kind of get there. And I think, like, having the groups and environment where like all of your emotions are allowed is really pivotal. And kind of the other thing that you mentioned that I wanted to comment on is the two to three concise sentences and like, kind of us knowing they're on it is so precise. And like, I've literally said to my husband before, you're unorganized. Call Sebastian. Like, go, go call him. And like, they'll talk it out. And he's like, he was right. Okay, so like, this is what's happening. I'm like, cool, as long as. Because sometimes when he's trying to understand himself, he lodges all these random thoughts that are painful for me to hear because he's insulting me while he's trying to understand himself. And that's another aspect of like, okay, so you want me to be intimate and safe with you, but then you're throwing daggers at me while you're trying to understand your own emotionality. And I want to be that safe space. But I'm also a human being who. That's hard to hear. So I've learned the warning signals. And thank God for Sebibu to be such a reliable friend most of the time. He's good at answering his phone. Yeah, yeah, ask that question because.

Jason Lange: Well, I just have to.

Host: So do you think the loneliness epidemic is more about men not connecting with.

Host: They're.

Jason Lange: They're raising their kids, they're working hard, they have an awesome wife, but they don't have that brotherly bond. They just don't have that feeling of, you know, my. My. My. My men, my guys that know me and see me and care about me and are tracking me. Right. Are actually tracking my life. Um, it's one of the. The. The things I see so. So many men craving and, like, down to even the specifics, I. I talk about the spinach in the teeth moment that men want to be around. Men who will look at them in the eye and say, you have spinach in your teeth and like, that. I am willing to make you uncomfortable and give you hard feedback because I love you.

Host: Right? Yeah.

Jason Lange: Guys. Guys crave that, even though they don't often realize it. And when they get it, they're like, okay, you're on the inner circle for life. Because I've been walking around all day and no one told me I had spinach in my teeth. So you're the one I trust. Right. You gave me the hard feedback that I needed to hear, that I needed to hear, because I want to be a good man. I want to be a good husband. I want to be a good father. And we all need that feedback to grow, particularly, I think, as men.

Host: I agree, and I see our time is coming to a close, but kind of, Alicia, when you ask that question, the connection with relationships versus friends, what paint for me is, is any of that possible if they're not connected to themselves?

Jason Lange: Exactly.

Host: Of course it pinged for you, Laura. I'm reliable. There's nothing wrong with that. No, I love it. I love it. You're right. That's where it all starts. And that's what your groups are, right? The space to get connected to yourself. Not only do you not so many men not know how to have these conversations with other men, but they don't even know where to start within themselves.

Jason Lange: Yeah. So totally. And in men, the last thing I'll say is, one of the fastest ways I've seen men learn is by being in the space with other men. So a man will step in, you know, share something, do some deep work. And I see it most extreme on two poles. A guy who just fully steps into his grief, just overwhelm grief, tears. But he's still completely there. He's not collapsed. He's not a victim. He's not posturing. He's not armored, got tears in his eyes. He's breathing deeply. And men are like, whoa, Nobody told me that was possible. I actually trust you more now. As a man. I don't think that was weak. That was one of the bravest things I ever saw. And on the other side, I also often see because, you know, men are recipients of this as much as other. A man who fully steps into his anger but feels completely safe every moment of it. There's never a, oh, my God. Guys are like, okay, whoa. I didn't know that was ever possible, because all I've ever experienced is aggression. And then when they see that, they start to be able to, like, connect to it in themselves, and it creates a sort of kind of permission. And, you know, the beauty of a group, too. I've seen it. You know, I've. I've been caught in this. You know, when I first started going to therapy, I was pretty sophisticated in my hiding mechanisms. But when there's, you know, when there's literally 16 eyeballs on you, as sophisticated as I was, usually one person's tuning fork would be like, I'm kind of calling here, man. You're saying that, but. And then I'm like, oh, you got me. And then I see it. I'm like, no, you're right, actually, I don't want that. And. And that's a powerful thing where we often learn what we're feeling by the feedback of others. You know, that's something therapy is really great at. And a men's group can just be another space to get it.

Host: You know, what I'm hearing is modeling, right? Like, they learn how to do it through. And I've had so many clients and people in my life be like, well, my dad never showed this, or my dad wasn't present. So, like, I don't know how to do these things. So I think it's a really beautiful and necessary environment. And I don't blame you for needing to expand how to create these, because there's such a huge need. And I'm so grateful that there's someone like you who's doing this work and teaching others how to spread it, because I think it's really important. Thank you.

Jason Lange: Yes, thank you. My pleasure. Yes.

Host: As someone who has facilitated groups, there's.

Jason Lange: It's.

Host: There's such a pleasure in the group doing the work, just like you guys. What do you guys think about this? Really nice.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: And they do.

Jason Lange: They.

Host: And they do do it for you too.

Jason Lange: And that.

Host: And.

Jason Lange: And that's another cool thing about the.

Host: Work that the three of us do is that, you know, it's so beneficial to Me selfishly.

Jason Lange: Totally. Yeah. That's something I tell guys. Like, your life will get better, you'll make more money, you'll be healthier, you'll have better sex. Like, these are the, the real results of getting more connected to your body and getting more connected to other men.

Host: Yeah. So how do people find you if they're interested in expanding this group? Finding a group, whatever it might be?

Jason Lange: Yeah. Best way to keep up with me is you can actually go to just Men's group. Men's Group will take you right to my main website, of which I have something called the Men's Group Experience, which is a 12 week journey guys can go through from the comfort of their home virtually to just taste what it's like to, to be in a group to learn some of the skills. And then, you know, you might continue with that group or you might be like, okay, cool, now I have a roadmap and I give you some tools and skills so you can, you can bring that to your local community. The guys you already have in your life, whatever that might be. Um, so, yeah, Just Men's dot group. And yeah, my whole organization is called Evolutionary Men. And it's. Yeah, just. And if nothing else, just shoot me an email. I will help you find a group. Doesn't have to be my group. I know a lot of men who lead this work and there's a lot of organizations all around the world. So I can help point you in the direction of something you really resonate with.

Host: Thank you so much, truly. Thank you. We'll all be sending this to all the men that we know. I already did, like five people because we get. And that's, that's why it's here. Yeah. I appreciate your time. I appreciate your work and thank you so much.

Jason Lange: We got. Such a pleasure.

Host: All right, till next time, guys.

Jason Lange: Awesome. Take care.