All right, so I just had a beautiful conversation with Viv on her show Perspective about softness and what that actually means for men. And I gotta say, it's a topic that's so needed right now because most men have no idea what to do with softness. We're taught from a young age that being soft is weak, that vulnerability is dangerous, that we need to be tough and invulnerable at all costs. But here's the truth, that rigid, armored approach to masculinity is literally killing us. The stats don't lie. Eighty percent of suicides are men, and a huge part of that is because we're never taught to feel what's happening inside or to reach out for support.
We talked about how so many men carry years, sometimes decades, of tightness in their bodies because we've learned to hold emotions in rather than feel them. Every time we tighten up to avoid feeling something, we're creating more rigidity. And that accumulates. Our faces get flat, our energy drops, we feel exhausted and stiff. Softness is what happens when we finally stop resisting what's inside and just let ourselves breathe and feel. It's not weakness. It's actually where our power lives.
We also dove into shadow work and why it's so transformative for men, especially in groups. So much of what drives our behavior is unconscious. We keep repeating patterns we don't understand, finding ourselves in the same fights or turning to the same numbing behaviors. Shadow work brings that stuff into awareness so we actually have choice. And when men do this work together, it's like we can finally see each other's blind spots. That's the magic of men's groups. We stop trying to lone wolf everything and actually let ourselves be held and seen by other men.
One thing that really stood out to me in this conversation was talking about how most men default to relating through triangulation. We bond over a third thing, a game, a project, a beer, but we rarely turn our attention directly on each other and ask, what's actually happening inside you right now? That shift, from looking at something together to looking at each other, that's where real connection lives.
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Host: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Perspective of Viv podcast. My name is Viv, and welcome to the show. So today's title is S for Softness, and it's Softness in Men. And I'll be sharing this episode with a special guest, Jason Lange. Hi, Jason.
Jason Lange: Hi. So glad to be here. Thank you.
Host: It's my pleasure. So before we start, I'm going to read your bio, and then I'll go straight into the questions. So Jason is a men's embodiment coach, group facilitator, and evolutionary guide. He helps men drop in and wake up to deeper classes, clarity in their lives, purpose, and relationships. He believes every man should be in a man's group for the growth and support opportunities they provide. So thank you once more. I'm super excited to ask you these questions, and you let me know how you feel at the end. Okay. What does the healthy masculine mean to you in today's world?
Jason Lange: Yeah, it's such a great question, and it's one that most men I work with are deeply wrestling with, because a lot of what was modeled for us and what we're taught from a young age as men doesn't really work. And a big part of that is, for many men, obviously, depending on your culture, it has some differences. But across a large part of the world, masculinity tends to be defined as invulnerability. So toughness. Right. An ability to persevere beyond anything, to not show weakness, to pick ourselves up by our bootstraps to. And the consequence of that tends to be men are often very disconnected from our bodies and particularly from our hearts. And that causes all kinds of downstream pains. And then there's kind of been a move, I would say, in the last 40 or 50 years, a shift against that, in a sense, where there's a number of men I've worked with that were often raised by those men, saw the consequences of what those kind of hard and vulnerable men do on the world, to people, to women, to kids, to the environment, and decided, like, oh, hey, I don't want to be that. And kind of swung to the other side of what we would call the nice guy. Just, like, really safe, sensitive, doesn't push, doesn't want to be aggressive. And a lot of those guys then find, well, they have no capacity to set boundaries. It's easy for people to take advantage of them. And so the work for men these days is to integrate and, as I would say, evolve beyond that of what does it mean to be a man who is connected to our bodies, our hearts, our Power, our desire, our ability and capacity to say no with firmness, but also to be open and as you already alluded to, like, soft and sensitive and attuned. And a lot of guys, you know, they hear stuff like that and they're like, you know, what's. What's that going to do for me? That. That. That sounds weak. And, you know, one of the major things I focus on with men is one of the cool things about our bodies, right, Is you've probably heard of the vagal nerve, right? It's that bundle of nerves that go right down our core that basically connects our brain to our body. And the wild thing about that that they've discovered is if we imagine that as like a highway, only 20%. Only 20% of that traffic is brain to body. 80%. 80% is body to brain. And why that's significant for us men is because when we're trying to do that old masculine thing of the tough, the hard, the ignoring our bodies, the ignoring our hearts, we're missing out. We're literally missing out on 80% of the information we could be using in any given moment to make wise, good decisions as leaders, as husbands, as fathers. And we're being called forward in this moment as men to be, hey, what. What's it like to be in our hearts and in our power, in our body? To me, that's the healthy version of the masculine. It's a nervous system that is calm, that's grounded, and that actually creates safety just in our presence of, hey, here with you, here in present.
Host: Wow, that's a beautiful answer. Thank you for that. Okay, so good way to start the podcast. Finally moves to my second question. There's so many things you said that really was new to me. The 20%, 80% information about the body to brain and brain to body and how that influences how men make decisions. There's something that you said that stood out to me was the fact that a lot of men aren't deeply rooted in their bodies, and that's what makes a difference in the way they show up in the world. So thank you for sharing that. And I'm sure men that hear this for the first time will feel the same way. So I'll move to my second question. You've said men's groups changed your life. What is it about the group dynamic that heals with what the lone wolf lifestyle wounds? Well, let me say that again. What is it about the group dynamic that heals what the lone wolf lifestyle wounds?
Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. So, again, this. A lot of you Know this, this term's kind of loaded in, in our various cultures, but we hear a lot about the patriarchy, right? And oftentimes we hear about it in terms of how it impacts women, how it impacts children, how it impacts women, the planet, but it's just as damaging to men. And what I mean by that is, from a young age, oftentimes boys are parented different than girls. And across a lot of cultures, there is this pretty significant gap, right? I. I've read one study that blew my mind where they polled both men and women. So they were polling both here. They were asking them both this question. What delineates and marks the transition from being a girl into a woman? And what marks and delineates the transition from being a boy into a man? And across. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but across men and women, for girls, they. People tended to remark on physical attributes, right? She started her cycle, her body has changed, she's developed into her womanhood. The same was not true for boys. What they pointed to was cultural behavior, what it means to. He knows how to take care of himself, his family. He could be a fully grown man, so to speak, in his mature adult body, but still be considered a boy. And so the. What this all points to is most men from a young age are kind of fed this idea that you need to be tough, you need to be invulnerable, and you should never show weakness, right? Just batten down the hatches and figure it out. And, you know, I'm out here in the United States and we literally have these kind of heroic archetypes of like, the rugged, lone individualist cowboy who doesn't need anyone and just kind of lives on his own. And, and we're fed this and a lot of hero myths and whatnot, but the truth is, it doesn't work, right? Even the, you know what we use to point to that the lone wolf in nature, the lone wolf is the one that was kicked out of the pack. And that wolf will actually die faster. It will not survive as long without its brethren, without the pack, so to speak. And that's part of what we're starting to see here with men, is so many men are not taught to be in their bodies, we not taught what to do with their emotions. And so anytime pain comes up, they try to get away from it, numb it, use sex, drugs, alcohol, relationships to get away from it, and then not talk to anyone about it. So, so many men end up holding so much tension and pain inside that eventually wears them out and causes them to often turn to substances or, you know, it's a pretty crazy stat. It's something like 80% of suicides are men. Right. Because. And a big part of that is we're not taught to talk about this stuff. Lone wolf it. Figure it out alone. And nobody is meant to do that. Right. Human, whether you're man or woman, we are social creatures. We literally have wiring for socialization. It's one of the most potent ways we co regulate each other. And men are encouraged not to do that. We're, we're rewarded, right? And champion for. Oh yeah, he's tough, he's a loner. He figured it all out. And so men's groups are an antidote to that, where men get to start to reveal just what's happening inside. Hey, what is happening inside you? And we get feedback from, from other men who both care about us, will support us when we're struggling and down, and very importantly, will hold us accountable if there's something we need to change or bring forward in our lives, a behavior, a place we're stuck, whatever that is. And so many men don't have that and end up suffering. But a good group kind of blows that up. And I've seen this time and time again in my life and the men I work with that once we have a foundation of, you know, a pack, quite literally, we're able to do more of what we want to do in life, take more risks, get back up when we fall down, feel more connected as we move through life and stress. And it's absolutely transformative in more and more men these days, unfortunately, are feeling the consequences of not having that.
Host: Wow. Yeah, I totally agree with you. Thank you for sharing that. So many layers, so many feelings when you, when you talk about that. Which leads me to my next question. When I say softness in men, what comes up for you emotionally, physically and energetically?
Jason Lange: Yeah, so for me it would be the opposite of rigid. Right. So a lot of men carry, we carry a lot of rigidity. So it's, it's almost. I've had to work through this. A lot of guys I work with somatically, our, our bodies are often on guard and vigilant and tight. A lot of men deal with tightness. I, I've noticed and in the work I do, I do a lot of shadow work and emotional work with men. I talk about this idea that emotions in our physicality are linked and very importantly linked to this idea of softness. So you know, if you imagine there's a young boy I mean, it could be young girl, but I'll use the example of a young boy. And maybe they've hurt themselves and they're really crying. They're crying hard. And this does happen in the world, right? This is the sad thing. And I as a parent, come up to them and I'm like, stop crying. How does the child do that? They stop breathing, and their body tightens up, literally tightens up to hold that emotional content in their system. And all emotions start as physical sensation. And anytime we're avoiding feeling an emotion, we actually have to tighten up in our body to hold it in place. And for men in particular, this will accumulate over years and, frankly, decades, where our bodies will start to get more and more rigid, more and more tight, and there's not a lot of energy, and we start to feel depressed and exhausted and stiff. Right. And you could see it like, lighten up, man. Right. We literally say this to people like, you see, you seem stiff. And so softness is the process I have seen particularly of. Once men learn to just be with their emotions, breathe more deeply, their bodies start to let go and actually relax. And it is an incredible thing I've gotten to witness to actually see a man's face transform. His eyes soften, blood comes back to his face, smiles come back, and there's like a lightness in his being of, oh, all that stuff I was to hold. I don't have to hold it and carry it with me in every single moment anymore. So for me, it's this relaxing of the body. It's definitely open, which means it's vulnerable too, because it's. I'm open to receiving and I'm open to giving. And there's risk in being open. Right? That's just the honest truth.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: So there's a little bit of vulnerability, there's a little bit of softness, but there's so much more room for connection as well and flow.
Host: Wow. Thank you so much. So when we talk about shadow work, how would you define it, and why is it essential for men today? I know you've mentioned, you know, them being able to be vulnerable, them being able to be more relaxed in their body, more rooted in their body. But outside of that, when we talk about the trauma men have gone through, the psychological impact of their upbringings of having masculine figures that weren't necessarily role models, being taught to suck things up, being told that aggression is more masculine than softness, that, you know, that label of when you're soft, you're feminine. You know, you're more of a woman what is that? When we talk about shadow work in men and narrowing that down and focusing on those aspects, why is that essential?
Jason Lange: Yeah, because so many men that I work with, the importance of shadow work is we get to become aware of what is actually motivating our behavior and choices in life. So there's different things will bring men to me to do shadow work. But one of the biggest ones I've seen and heard from men is I don't know why I keep doing this thing over and over. I know it's not good for me. I don't feel good when I do it. And yet I. It's like, inevitable. I just find myself having the same fight with my spouse or turning to alcohol over and over. Whatever it is, there's something that keeps happening in their lives that they don't know why they keep doing it. Oftentimes that's a deep portal into some kind of shadow work because it means there's something under our conscious thought and behavior that's driving that. Often it's a fear, an emotion, an old traumatic experience. And so shadow work, really, in the work I do, it's the process of bringing the unconscious up to the conscious. Right. So we can see it, because the second we see it, suddenly we have choice. Oh, wow. That's why every time I'm around someone who gets loud, I withdraw. Right. Or, you know, there's so many different things. Or when someone cuts me off in traffic, I explode in rage. So many different gateways to this stuff. But it's about becoming aware of. Yeah. What oftentimes is our nervous system trying to protect us from or not feel based on old experiences it thinks might be happening right now. Right. It's very related to trauma. And it's one of the reasons I love doing shadow work in groups. Because Right. When you actually just think about the idea of shadow, it's like the old Peter Pan, like, what shadow? Right. You try to see your shadow and it's always behind you. But when you're with someone else, they're like, hey, do you see that? And you're like, what are you talking about? And they're like, oh, no, here's this huge shadow right here. And it's not about shaming the person for it, but it's about bringing that into awareness of, wow. Do you realize every single time you. You talk about your job, your energy, your voice gets flat, your face gets flat, you look down, and oftentimes we're not aware of what our body is already telling us, but other people can See it and suddenly we can start to work with it. And kind of like I was talking about with the, the rigidity in the pathway to softness. One of the massive benefits to shadow work I see for men is a lot of guys I work with, particularly once you hit kind of middle age, one of the big things they struggle with is energy management. I feel so tired, burdened. There's so much to do. I'm failing at this. I don't have time for my wife, I don't have time for my kids. I don't have time for my job. A lot of that can be traced to shadow content, right? Because it takes energy to hold all this stuff inside. And as we start to go in and liberate it, literally transmute it, that energy gets freed up. And men, it's pretty amazing. I mean, men and women, but come back alive. It's like there's more life force in their system again and it starts to change men for the better in terms of they have more capacity to be present for the things they want to be present for in their lives. So shadow work is extremely crucial and can be an absolute game changer. Because the other thing I'll, I'll share is sometimes the shadow work we end up doing, right? It isn't even just ours, but it goes back in our lineage. Our father's father's father, our mother's mother's mother. This stuff gets passed down. What's okay to talk about, what's okay to feel, how you have to be. And it goes down the line. And it's deeply empowering for most people when they realize, wow, just because I was handed this doesn't mean I have to carry it forward. And shadow work is a great way out of that.
Host: So true, so powerful. And you know what they say, when you heal yourself, you're healing seven generations forward and backward. And that's why it's so profound and so meaningful. Another thing you said that I really liked was energy management. I found that when it comes to men, they do disperse their energy so freely. They may not understand how much they're giving in different places that a simple boundary could stop. It could mean the, the, the people that are taking from you, maybe you're sponsoring someone financially or emotionally, always there to be the one to listen to people's problems, but they're not there for you. I don't think they're aware of that. I don't think they're aware of how much they give their energy because they think that's the masculine thing. To do, to give. But yeah, I feel as though the average man doesn't think that if I could manage what I'm giving, if I could put boundaries in certain places. Because they do think that putting boundaries is being a bad person. So that's another element of shadow work. But I think what I've realized is that, and I've seen is that they don't want to put up the boundaries where they later realize that, oh my gosh, by setting this boundary, I've been able to have more energy to breathe, to release, to live. So I think, yes, energy management is very important because it does fall under self control. Don't you think?
Jason Lange: Yes, absolutely.
Host: Perfect. Okay. Because my next question says what parts of the masculine often get. Get hidden in the shadow?
Jason Lange: Yeah, well, I would say for a lot of men, softness, vulnerability, grief, fear. Are some big ones. Longing, like just longing. For some men, exhaustion, just like, I am so beat. Like there's just that. No, gotta put up the facade. Keep going, keep going. More and more. A lot of work I'm doing with men, this, you know, and this may rattle some men, but the desire to feel masculine love, literally to just feel the love of brothers, fathers, uncles, that so many men are deeply malnourished on, of just another man looking you in the eye and saying, hey, man, I know it hasn't always been easy, but good work, I see how hard you're trying. That is such medicine for men when they feel someone recognizing them. But a lot of men are terrified to name it or ask for it in particular. So there's actually quite a bit, you know, for not all men, but a good chunk of men emotionally, really kind of the only thing most men are allowed to express as manly is anger. It's like, oh, well, anger, yeah, he's a man, he's, you know, he's tough. Everything else is considered weak or feminine. And that has so true, severe impact, severely damaging impact on men. So it's really just in a lot of ways, it's our interiors as men that, you know, just having interiors that you have an inside, you have feelings, you are impacted. Even another one I've also been pretty amazed by is sensitivity, is there's this idea of, you know, men aren't sensitive, women are more attuned. And there are many men who are profoundly sensitive, but again, are kind of encouraged to not share that side of themselves. And then they kind of have to hide it and like toughen up their exterior to pretend like it's not there. But in the right environment, when they're allowed to bring that forward. It's incredible how attuned they are, how much they feel and how much better they feel when they're not resisting that.
Host: Effy. Definitely. Yes. And I've seen that in person. So many things to take from what you've said. I love the concept of men having other friends or friends that they can connect with that are male. Men that are in tune with themselves and therefore being able to say to another man, I see you. Are you open to talk about this? I love seeing male friendships bloom because I know that there's a certain level of sensitivity and emotional connection they must tap into in order to have friendships that are thriving or budding. Friendship between another man. I think that that's a beautiful display of their softness and their sensitivity, being able to hold space for each other. Because when they are. Are able to hold space for each other, it allows both people to heal. It also allows them to be able to lead other men in community because they see that dynamic. They see how they feed off of each other. They see how it allows the expression of authenticity, which most times involves vulnerability, because they have that freedom of space and a safe space amongst each other to express that. It's so profound. It's so healing. So. Yes. So let's talk about how some men retreat in relationships. What do you notice about those patterns and what's usually underneath them besides what you've said already? Because you have said the main thing, the lack of or inability to tap into that vulnerable aspect, which is a key aspect in the development of a man. Please tell me.
Jason Lange: Yeah. One of probably the biggest places I see this for men is around shame. And so shame is one of the most challenging, damaging emotional experiences for a lot of men because there's this sense of, like, you know, I have to be enough, I have to do more. I have to measure up to, you know, this definition of what it means to be a man. And the consequence of that, I see time and time again. Right. I. I literally work with men who pay me to be their coach, who join my men's groups. And sometimes, you know, we'll be deep into something and I won't hear from them for like a week or two. And then eventually, you know, I'll kind of be poking them like, hey, how's it going? I haven't heard from you. And then they'll reach out and they'll be like, oh, you know, actually, last week was the worst week of my life. I had a really hard time with X, Y or z. And I'll be like, oh, wow, I'm so sorry to hear that. You know, you're literally paying me to help you and you didn't talk to me for a whole week. And what it is is this, this often this shame and pain response for men that when they're hurting, they withdraw, which is the very moment we most need to come forward and say, hey, I'm in pain, I feel stuck, I feel scared, I feel like I messed something up. And that's actually the healing moment that is most profound for so many men when the thing they feel the most shame around, they're able to bring into connection and it's met with love. Right. Doesn't mean it's the best moment of their lives, but it's just like, oh yeah, it's okay, man, I'm still here with you. Like we can figure this out. You'll get through it. And suddenly it's like they can breathe and this whole burden is lifted. So I see that time and time again that again, kind of this lone wolf mentality. Men have this story that it's more manly to suffer alone. And what that does is it actually just perpetuates the suffering for longer. So I often tell guys, like, it's just not as efficient. Like just connect, right? Connect and you're going to be able to process whatever is going on with you in a more efficient manner and move forward. The other thing kind of related to relationships I see, I mostly work with heterosexual men, but I work with guys all around, so I'll just name. That's a lot of the patterns I see. Just cause that's who I work with. But for a lot of guys, because they don't have male connection, like a solid male connection, doesn't mean they don't have buddies that they watch sports with or go out to the bars with. But there's not that talking about what's happening inside, right?
Host: Yeah.
Host: Very true, very true. I like what you said about men having to connect through triangulation. That was very profound because, yes, we've seen it when they're building something, fixing cars, they love to fix cars together in America. I've seen that a lot in movies, football games, all of that. And I never really thought about it. I was like, okay, yeah, that's just how men express friendship. But really the truth is we're using this thing to connect as an avenue. Can we face ourselves? That's very, very profound. Oh, wow. And yeah, I can see why a group is so vital to development of a man emotionally. So if we're still talking about relationships, what do you think? What do you think the feminine truly crave from the masculine? And how do men misinterpret that?
Jason Lange: Yeah, so the what, what I teach around this is just deep presence. So just literally, I'm here with you, okay? Right now. My mind isn't elsewhere. I'm not trying to change the moment. I'm just, I'm here. And I'm not afraid of what you're feeling. I'm not afraid of what I'm feeling. There's deep breath and it's like, it's magnetic when, when, when, when a man, I mean really anyone, but a man in particular has this sense of presence to him of like, wow, I can, I feel more being in the room with this person. My nervous system downshifts and regulates. And it's that presence, paradoxically, that often can actually get us the things that a lot of men think they have to have to get a woman. So it's like, oh, I need to have a lot of money or a high paying job or a girlfriend. That's all the surface stuff. And there are some people, you know, they're shallow men, just like they're shallow women. Sometimes someone's just like, yeah, I want to see how big his bank account is. Just like some men are like, I just need to see she has a certain body. Most people aren't like that though. Most people. It is this deeper thing in that, you know, there are plenty of men who have lots of money, let's say, are very successful and are absolutely terrible husbands, boyfriends, etc, because they don't have this capacity to be present. They're stuck up in their heads, overthinking things, overworked, exhausted, whatever that might be. And it's, you know, it's. I've done co ed work before, my wife works with women. And it's, it's not a theoretical thing, right? We can see, like you can literally put a man in front of another man, even doesn't even have to be a woman. And if they start to breathe deeply, relax into their body, get very present, have a nice solid posture, it changes the people they're around. Everybody will soften, breathe deeper, sink into the moment a little bit more. That's the currency, I would say that the masculine can really bring is deep and profound presence. A being with whatever is happening in the moment, not trying to get away from it, which is what most men are constantly doing, trying to change the moment. Oh, you're upset. I'm going to help you feel better, right? Oh, there's a problem, let me come and fix it, right? I want to get away from the tension in the moment. Deep masculine presence is just, I'm going to fully be here with you in whatever that might be and when we experience it, right. I used to lead some group work in Los Angeles and it would always blow me away. There would, there'd be people coming in who it was pretty clear had literally just never had someone be present with them without an agenda in their whole lives. Just like, no, I'm just here with you. That's profound breathing with you. And there's like a, you know, there's a huge downshift and often relaxation and softening in the nervous system when we can feel someone is with us. So a lot of guys confuse it and think, oh, I gotta have a certain job or pay or flashy car, all this external stuff, which, you know, it's important to be able to take care of yourself and have some stability. I'm not saying, you know, none of that matters, but what matters so much more profoundly is this capacity for presence and this Ability for men to really drop into that which can then, you know, again, it's different in different cultures and all around the world. But a lot of women these days are struggling because they've had to step so much into the kind of outer, masculine, agentic, getting shit done, taking care of the kids, working their job, paying the bills, grind, grind, grind. That when a man can hold that presence and even if it's just for a few breaths, they can just soften like it's a tremendous grift because she just gets to feel her body, her softness. And that is what a lot of women are craving and. Right. And the thing for both men and women, I think these days is again, part of the challenge is we're both being asked to do more, to have the fluidity to sometimes be out there and be doing stuff and be in our kind of go mode.
Host: And.
Jason Lange: And sometimes we have to all be able to soften and feel and slow down and share vulnerably. And the being able to shift back and forth is a real capacity most of us are deeply undernourished and under trained in, and to tie it all together. What I found is when men are in a group, paradoxically, it allows us to soften more into our feminine energy of, oh, I don't have to have it figured out. I don't have to have an answer right now. I can be messy. I can just feel what's going on in my body. Nobody needs anything from me. And the other men can hold us. Paradoxically, what that allows for is then we get to go out into the world and it's much easier to hold other people, to be like, hey, I got you. It's okay. I got people holding me so I can hold you. And we both have to do both. Frankly.
Host: I definitely agree with what you've said. And what you said is equally as powerful as everything you've been saying from the beginning. With us men and women, we do have to find that balance between our masculine and feminine energies. That's the whole thing, the yin yang. We both. We have both energies within us. So it's not like as a gender, you have to express more masculine energy. It's about finding your balance. And then I feel like the balance in a man shows in his presence, his ability to be present with you. So from personal experience, I can say that being in the company or being around somebody that is present as a masculine in our dynamic has allowed me, who can be classified as more of a masculine woman because I'm assertive. I'm out there, I'm doing things I've always been a doer to. It's, it's giving me space to explore that feminine aspect of me. Relax, let things be done for you. You don't need to do things. And that's from me being told, I'm here, you don't have to do this, I'll do this for you. And that's new. I'm like, what? Like when you're, when you're a doer, oh my gosh. Like I'm the kind of person that, okay, if I'm in my dynamic with my masculine, I'm working, I'm walking in front. And my masculine is like, hello, I'm walking in front. You're, you know, so that's different. And I think that, like you said, presence, because I'm being present with. I'm able to be present with aspects of myself that may not necessarily be comfortable being expressed because I've not had a conducive environment for that side to show. So as a result of being in a dynamic where there's presence, both of us can balance both aspects of our energies.
Jason Lange: Yes.
Host: My masculine can also feel like they can express their emotions. They can express how they are feeling necessarily, not necessarily something they would express outside because I've been told I wouldn't necessarily share this. You're supposed to keep it inside. Well, I share it and that's profound because, yes, in society, my masculine may not be able to feel like they can say, I'm struggling with this, but here there's a balance of presence where, okay, this is what I'm going through, you know, and we are both able to be present with each other. So that's very profound because my next question is, what do you think the masculine truly creates from the feminine? And how do women misinterpret that?
Host: Effy, thank you. That's such a beautiful answer to the question. Oh, my goodness, you're a very good speaker, Jason. So many things you've said have been like. I've been like, wow, it's nice to have this perspective about men's journeys, especially with their sensitivity from another man. And I also like the fact that you take into consideration other cultures as well, because there are differences in the way men can express themselves also with their upbringing as well. So I like that you've mentioned that. Thank you. So my next question. How would you describe male intuition? Is this a collective muscle or deeply personal? And to back it up, what do. What does your own intuition feel like?
Jason Lange: Yeah, mine tends to be kind of a deep body based knowing. It's the only way I can just like, oh, yeah, I like that. That there's just. It's not really a thought that's kind of what's hard to describe. It's more like, oh, that's what's there. It's, it's, you know, it often doesn't even feel like it's coming from me. Right. It's just coming through me in a sense. And I think this is one of the great losses in the world right now that. Because men, like I said, are often from a young age, encouraged and frankly taught and even reward. Rewarded for being disconnected from our bodies in our hearts, we're often quite disconnected from our intuitions. Right. And instead we just go. So many men I know struggle with rumination, overthinking things. If I just think about it hard enough, if I map all this out, map all this out, make the right choice and I'll never have to, you know, make a mistake or something. And it's frankly exhausting for so many men. And why I focus a lot on embodiment. So just the process of getting connected and into our bodies is. That's often where the answers lie. Like we were talking about with the 8020 of the highway. There's so much information there. You know, people call it our gut instinct. Right. These things are real. They've done research oftentimes before significant moments, good moments or, you know, there's quite a bit of painful research to read about before traumatic moments. People will have a very visceral and intense sense of don't open that door or turn around and will then ignore it. And often, you know, something bad will be lurking there. That's the cutoff from the intuition that particularly for men, you know, we're kind of taught not to do. And so one of, again, one of the main reasons I tell men like doing your work to soften and get in your bodies and get connected to your emotions and your, your kind of gut instincts is it's going to make you a more capable human being. You'll be a more effective leader. You will have these, you know, receive these kind of transmissions of. It's not so much that this is right or wrong when it comes to a decision. It's just like, oh, this is the one to make right now. And that's going to move my life forward and whatever happens then I'll make an, I'll get more information and I'll make another step. So I think male intuition, like I said, kind of like with the sensitivity, it's actually quite powerful when men learn to trust it and relax into it. It took me, you know, some time to start to really attune to it of like, oh hey, underneath all the chatter there's, there's something else available if I take the time to get into my body and actually listen to it. Right. And so for me it does, it does tend to have kind of a deep body based, knowing.
Host: Beautiful. Okay, thank you for that. So what's your perspective on how sensitive men or men in tune with their emotions are perceived from men that aren't necessarily connected and what you think society, how you think society as a whole perceives them, but may not necessarily say.
Jason Lange: Yeah, this is the, the kind of culture of the patriarchy, I would say and you know, we kind of call it the man box. That. Oh yeah, again, if it's pretty much if it's any emotion other than anger and this is what's so awful, it'll be labeled as like more feminine when it's not really at all, it's just human experience. And so oftentimes those men will be seen as weak or labeled, you know, certain words and, and kind of look down upon, oh, he's a victim or he just gets lost in himself. He's not tough. And I, I think that's, it's changing, but it Is still part of the culture. Pretty. Most cultures, I would say. And again, why I love group work is it's been one of the most powerful ways I've seen in men's groups to interrupt that, because what I'll often see, and this happens in a different couple of different ways, is, you know, some men get to know each other. You know, these are oftentimes like badass men who are doing cool things in life or have survived really challenging upbringings. And, you know, we'll get to a part where they. They bring something forward that's really vulnerable. A deep fear, deep grief. Perhaps it might be in tears. And they're still breathing. They're standing. They're not necessarily fully collapsed. They're just like, I'm here. And other men will have the experience of, oh, wow. I actually trust that man more right now. It's, like, incredibly courageous. I see him feeling what he's feeling, and it starts to, like. It's literally like, wakes guys up of, whoa, nobody told me this was possible. Mean I'm allowed to have tears, and I'm not weak. I'm actually stronger for it. And it starts to kind of update men's wiring. And even. Even on the other side, around anger. I've seen a lot of men being blown away by what happens when they see a man embodying healthy anger, which means he's fully in touch with it. But this is key. He feels completely safe. It's not out of control. It's not explosive. It's not aggressive. They're like, whoa, nobody told me that was possible. Either I don't have to become a jerk or, you know, a tyrant of any kind. And it's this modeling of seeing men we trust and value come forward with their emotional expression. And at the end of it, we often. This is the paradox for so many men. We trust them more, and we actually think they're even stronger as it's like, wow, I can't believe you were so brave to bring that forward and feel that. I could tell how intense that was. And again, it's. The beauty of group work to me is that it often inspires another man. He's like, whoa. If you can do that, I think I got something too, actually, and I want to bring it forward. And then the group starts feeding off each other, becoming more and more real, more and more authentic, going more and more deep, dropping the facade of the tough guy. And paradoxically, when you see a man fully step into his pain, what we tend to ascribe to him on the Other side is toughness. Like, wow, you are a tough. Just like, to actually see and feel in your nervous system what you experienced as a kid or over these last couple years with your health challenge or depression or whatever that is. Like, you are so resilient. You're so strong. Um, so it. It ends up creating the much realer version of that thing. I think all men think they're trying to portray by never feeling. And, you know, I'll just share. One of the things I sometimes say to the kind of macho guys is, you know, tell me, who's afraid? Who's more afraid? The man who is terrified to touch his emotions or the man who just steps right into them, and then they're like, oh, wait, you're right. All that projection I have around tears or vulnerability, that's my fear. That's it. It's just my. I'm afraid to go there. And that will start to sometimes challenge guys in a. In a friendly way of like, yeah, man, no, come on, let's be brave. Let's go in.
Host: Yeah. Wow, that's really cool. You know, even as you see you share your perspectives on the journey of men, there's still something that I, as a woman, can take from this embodiment. Being in my body, being connected to myself and listening to those nudges, holding space and being present, and also being able to tap into deeper elements of my vulnerability as well. So I love that it's a collective journey, but as I said before, every man and woman has a masculine and feminine energy within them, and it's about balancing both. It's about allowing the fears that we are free to. What's the right word? Attack. Let's use attack to step into the other side, where we're more embodied, where we're more in our bodies, where we're more trusting of who we are authentically, not who society says we should be. So I'm glad I've been able to see that from a male's perspective. This has been so profound. My last question is one in which I'd love for you to paint me a picture. What does a true healthy man look like to you? Alone in a relationship with others and in their friendships with each other.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: What would be the most deep, meaningful thing we could put our attention on in this moment? And that will often completely change a relationship conversation with the parent, kid, spouse, you know, whatever that might be. When men have all three of those firing. Yeah. It's this kind of magnetic presence that is of deep service to the world. And, you know, as I have experienced, quite literally, as part of what got me on this path, a deeply present man. When he enters the room, it tends to relax and make everybody feel safer. There's just like a. Oh, yeah, okay. Like this guy's here. I feel him here. Now I feel more here. And that is something I think the world needs quite a bit more of, you know, honestly. And that shows up, you know, personally in relationships with spouses. And again, it doesn't mean we have to do that all the time. Sometimes we have to be able to flex and flow, and that's that new currency that we're talking about.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And the last thing that just strikes me here, I'll name is the beauty of the US cultivating both. So us men learning to shepherd and take care of our feminine, women learning to take care of their masculine and bring it forward, bring their full gifts forward into the. Into the world. Is it actually, for me, has made me a lot more compassionate for the other side, too. Like when I've had to be taken care of or surrendered or kind of letting someone else take over, like, hey, here's the keys. You're driving to learn. The vulnerability of what it means to give your trust to someone else has actually made me a much more effective leader when I'm the one holding the keys, so to speak, Because I know, oh, it's not easy to surrender. Surrender is just as powerful. Or my language is leading. Right. And. And we get to experience both. And as you experience both, it's like, oh, yeah, one's not better than the other. They're both so needed, and we can gift them to those around us, depending on what would be most nourishing to them in the moment. Sometimes what's most nourishing to. To my wife is, yeah, hey, I made the plan. We're doing this. Sometimes what's most nourishing to my wife is, hey, let's do exactly what you want today. I'm along for the ride, right? Both have. Have a tremendous impact.
Host: Yes. And it makes your dynamic more whole because both sides are being fed. It's about balance. I really like that. And honestly, Jason, this has been such a beautiful conversation. Thank you so much for sharing everything that you know. I'm so sure that the men listening to this episode would be so transformed. So thank you so much, and we hope to have you again. Bye.
