The idea that men are supposed to go it alone isn't just outdated, it's literally deadly. I had this realization hit me hard during my conversation with Mark on Relatively Normal, where we unpacked why the cultural myth of the rugged individual is one of the most dangerous stories we tell ourselves as men.
We talked about this cultural myth we've all been sold, the lone wolf, rugged individual thing. And here's the truth: that story is killing men. Literally. The isolation, the shame, the way so many of us walk around with decades of tension locked in our bodies because we were never taught it's okay to feel. We covered the "man box," this narrow range of acceptable emotions and behaviors men are supposed to conform to, and how that compression just accumulates in our tissues over time.
Mark asked some great questions about how men can show up differently in relationships, and we got into the power of men's groups as a place where guys can actually bring their struggles without having to put it all on their partner. Because here's the thing: when a woman can feel her man is held by other men, it changes everything. He doesn't need her to be his therapist and his lover. He can just be present.
We also talked about appreciation, how simple moments of being seen and valued by a woman can hit so differently for men who are constantly running the internal calculation of "am I enough?" And how women doing their own work, being anchored in themselves, creates this magnetic pull that allows men to step up.
Read Full Transcript Full episode text for reading and search
Jason Lange: Yeah. So glad to be here, Mark. Thanks for having me. So, yeah, I, I work with men. I'm a men's guide, as I say, which is really just a fancy term for men's coach. And I really believe particularly in the power of men's work and men's groups and really came to it through my own journey of my own growth and have just become very passionate in pretty on purpose, so to speak, in terms of just trying to help men and on this mission that I think every man should be in a men's group. And I feel like a lot of the world's ills could be remedied if this type of connection was available to more men. So I'm pumped, just pumped to be here. Always great to talk to another soul who's up to good work. So excited to dive in.
Host: Well, dive in is what we are going to do because I, I appreciate all that. A few words you had brought up in that first introduction. One was connection. That was a, that was a word you brought up. And, and of course, course, something you talk about a lot is two words, men's groups. Like you feel that not just men's groups are very important, but men actually being in those groups and communicating and interacting in those groups. Why is that so important?
Jason Lange: Yeah, so, you know, I'm here in the States, but I think an element of this is around the world. But from a pretty young age, us men are kind of. Am I allowed to swear, by the way. Are we down with that?
Host: Yes, yes, go ahead, go ahead. Okay. Yeah.
Jason Lange: So we're kind of fed this narrative, right? Particularly here in the states of the lone wolf, the tough, rugged individual. Just pick yourself up by the bootstraps, never show weakness, always move forward. And it's honestly a lie, you know, that I think I'm partly here to burst that, yeah, there's men who do that, but they often end up addicted to substances, dying early, and in a quite a bit of emotional pain. So what I'm here to kind of change the. The tune around is we need connection as men. And in fact, other men can be our greatest allies and not just our competition. This thing so many of us get ingrained in us from a young age through, you know, I know it's a loaded word, but it impacts us men through this idea, the patriarchy and the man box and all of these checklists that our culture teaches us. You have to be this way to be considered a man. And if you're not, you're not a man. And so we start changing our behavior from a pretty young age. I mean, even as kids, right, most of us have heard this phrase, if not personally, we've seen it of, you know, stop crying, kid. Boys in particular get fed that stuff all the time. And what that teaches us from a very young age is your feelings don't matter. Whatever you're feeling in your body, it's wrong and ignore it and get out of your body. And so us men are trained from a very young age to actually be disembodied a lot of the time, to be disconnected from our bodies and disconnected from our emotions. And culturally, we're often rewarded for that. Oh, he can work really hard hours. He's a peak performance athlete that, you know, has been grinding his body down over the years. We work really dangerous jobs. There's so many ways this is manifested, even or, you know, militarily, like man goes off to war and literally loses part of his body oftentimes. And so we're taught this from a young age. And then a lot of men take that on. And then, you know, there's a certain amount of chi in our system when we're young. And then usually it's around the 30s or 40s, stuff starts to catch up with us. And, you know, a lot of men these days in particular, the stats are pretty extraordinary in terms of loneliness and isolation. Even suicides have gone up. Men are struggling in this very lonely world. And men's groups in particular, as I work with guys are a way to shatter that, to say, hey, you know what? We actually grow better in connection and community. You can get more done, you can be more effective, you can be more resilient in a tight community like that.
Host: I, I for one love everything you just said. But, but I'll be honest with you. Like, I, I love it because I have worked on myself and I've worked with other men, and I've, I've seen the dangers of the, the kind of wrong types of masculinity. I've seen the dangers of me keeping my emotions inside and feeling that the world doesn't want me to, to talk about it. However, I mean, you and I, from the, from the few minutes we've been talking, like, I know you, you're a pretty intelligent guy. And we're, we. None of us were born yesterday. And we, we may have been born at night, but, but not last night, you know, so there's still a stigma. Like, you, you are saying the right things, and I'm listening. I'm, I'm, I'm your version of bringing sand to the beach. I, I know it. However, there's so many men out there that refuse to accept this. They, they, they, they believe. Because I've had these conversations with other men, they believe. Mark, I know what you're saying, but this is what I have to do. This is my job. This is my role. I have to be this, this, this all the time. So how does one start a conversation with a person who's still stuck in that type of kind of emotional jail cell? Basically.
Jason Lange: Yeah, to be totally honest, I don't have those conversations because the man. Men have to be ready and to be totally straight. You know what I see happens? What often will make a man ready if he's not lucky enough to get exposed to a man like you or just, you know, get into that vibration, so to speak, is something will have to happen in his life to create some kind of pain that wakes him up to, I can't keep doing this. Whether it's physical body fails, a relationship fails, career changes, something will wake a man up that, wow, what I'm doing is unsustainable. And for a lot of guys, I think in particular, like I said, in the kind of late 30s, 40s, it starts to show up in the body, right? Autoimmune disorders, all kinds of things start to happen in our body. Particularly, I would argue, when we're disconnected from our emotional experience and this stuff every year, we kind of ignore it. It shows up more. So men's health really, you know, is outlined. And just, you know, speaking of the loneliness stuff and isolation, we have, you know, again, we have the story of, you know, the lone wolf. The lone wolf. But in nature, the lone wolf is actually the one that got kicked out of the pack and they die faster, Right. The lone wolf doesn't survive. It's the wolf in the pack that survives. And the research shows that. Right. That men who feel isolated, in particular, it's as dangerous for your life expectancy is smoking a pack of cigarettes a day or being morbidly obese. Like, this stuff actually has an impact on your lifespan. So on the one hand, you know, I don't really try to argue men into doing the work. I try to just create, like, hey, here's something else available, and when you're ready, you're going to show up. Men will often, you know, this is part of the work in itself is starting. Is developing that capacity to listen to themselves and inside and in their body and realize, ooh, I think. I think I need to do something different here. Right? This isn't working. I particularly tend to work with a lot of guys around dating and relationships because that's one of the few areas I've seen that unless health fails, a relationship not going the way they want or not having the fulfilling relationship they want is one of the only things I'll see get a man's ass off the couch to change himself of like, oh, my God, my wife just left me. Or this woman I've been pursuing, just, she's not into me or whatever that might be. And that creates, you know, that's a pretty prevalent one for creating this pain that often invites men into change. So, you know, and we're just having to change the culture around it, right? Creating this idea that it. It is okay to be in your body. It is okay to be emotionally fluid in that, in fact, you'll get more of what you want. I think that's the big game changer for a lot of men. It's like, actually, it's more effective. Like, that's the crazy thing. And mental. Sometimes they'll be like, okay, you know, I'll give it a try. It feels a little weird, whatever. And then once they get into a space, you know, with other men, one thing that always just surprises me is once men feel safe, they often have so much to get out emotionally, verbally. Like, there's just a lot like, oh, my God, this is somewhere I've never known what to do with this and here we go, right? Here it all comes. So maybe not the most direct answer there, but that, yeah, there's a stigma. And in. In a sense, I don't really try to pull the people in who aren't ready yet, because you got to be ready for change, right in. What I want to kind of put out is the signal. So it's like, hey, this thing exists. So when that moment comes for you, reach out, find someone, find a group, find a doorway in. So it's in the mental map, so to speak. Even if you're not buying it right now, I. I tend to think for every man, there will be a time where you'll realize, wow, this is unsustainable.
Host: You know, the first of all, great answer, Great answer. I say that. Great answer. And secondly, you know, I have a feeling that when it comes to big relationship changes, whether that be what you mentioned, wife left, you got a divorce, anything, or the woman you've put so much time and effort in has finally come clean and says she doesn't want that type of relationship with you. Getting fired from a job that you put, you know, 12 hours a day in for the past five years. Like, you know, those. Those are the type of things that happen in your life that make you almost immediately start to wonder, what kind of person am I? What have I done for myself? Like, because you start to put. You put all that time and energy into something else, and then you end up alone. And you've talked about the street, the loneliness street. You talked about what that's like. So you have two options. To stay down that loneliness streak or to literally. And I mean, this is not figurative. Literally change the course of your life and try to better yourself. So I think those are great examples you gave because, I mean, you can talk on this because this, a lot of this is about men's relationship with themselves first. Like, how do they feel about them? Have they been pouring from an empty cup for years? And that's got to be one of the hardest things, One of the hardest things to. To come to grips with. But then that starts this whole process, though.
Jason Lange: Oh, man. One of the things that always blows me away, particularly when I'm doing group work and guys get to know each other and, you know, energy's starting to move, is the extraordinary difference between how a man will talk to himself and how he'll talk to other men. So the inner critic, you know, the ways men just beat the. Out of themselves, their beliefs about themselves and the things they'll say to themselves are so Hardcore. And they would never say it to another man, but it's just totally normal that they mess something up or don't get it right. And just their internal dialogue goes to these pretty dark places. And that's one of the things I see get illuminated in groups of, wow, I would never talk to you that way. But why is it I'm okay talking to myself this way? And then as we dig in, so many men, you know, and I consider myself part of this, powered by just shame and self loathing and this feeling that I have to do something in order to be worthy in the world. Whether that's get a girlfriend or make certain amount of money or, you know, all these different things and men are just dying inside. And again, part of what I find so powerful about a group is it's, you know, connection is really the antidote to shame. So when we're connected, when we can bring the parts of ourselves that we feel are just unlovable or unworthy, totally lost in shame, and we bring those forward and they're met in connection, it is transformative. It's, you know, it's a total alchemy of wow, if these other people are willing to accept me, maybe I'm just willing to accept myself too. Maybe I don't have to be so hard on myself. And it's like a light switch, you know, that's so profound to see because it's, as I say, it's not that life gets easier, but it gets a lot better because it's like, wow, there's already going to be an unlimited amount of stress in life. Just the way the world works. There's plenty of hard stuff that's going to happen and I don't have to double down on that by the way I treat myself and like talk to myself. I don't have to take that stress and make it even worse. I can actually come into connection with other men, come into better connection in relationship with myself. You know, the. I've literally seen this in men's presence and posture before of just the profound transformation of a man changing from this posture of like looking down, kind of collapsed in shame a little bit to the posture of dignity of like, I'm here. Yeah, some stuff's not working, it's hard, but I'm here. I'm trying, proud of who I am, proud of what I'm going for. And it is so enlivening to actually see men come up into their power in that space that it's one of the things that keeps me coming Back to this work over and over and over again.
Host: I love it.
Jason Lange: And.
Host: And I think you're the perfect person to ask this because, you know, I.
Jason Lange: There are.
Host: There are. There are different ways that we're seeing kind of men open up to this new kind of world. Because, you know, my father's generation, this. There's no opening up. There was no talking about your feelings. There's no coming home from work and being like, honey, I'm tired. I can't do it. There's none of that. There's none of that.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: And I saw it firsthand. Like, I think my father is the strongest man I've ever met in my life. Did we talk about emotions a lot when I was a kid? No, it didn't happen. But. And, you know, now that I'm a father, even though I have girls, like, I make sure they see daddy as an emotional human being so they can look for that type of partner in their future. But, you know, I do have. I don't want to say an issue, but there's this kind of. This issue where some men who are getting into this space, talking about men becoming more one with their emotions, opening up, being more vulnerable, helping the world understand and accept all that. But they're also, at the same time, I don't want to say bashing women, but kind of like blaming them a lot of the time for not allowing men to open up. And I don't. And. And I don't mean to. I'm not trying to cause a war of genders or sex, anything like that. However, I feel as I have grown into this more emotional male, I feel like I've become more emotionally available to women. I've become more understanding of their plight. I've understood that their. The way they handle stress is different. The way they interact with each other is different. The way they interact with other men is different, the way they do. And I've been more empathetic, pathetic to them. But I feel there is a way that some men have gotten that backwards. And they say, oh, well, I never had this in my life. Like, why should I even listen to you anymore? This is. And. And I don't. I don't like that. I know I'm being very general because I don't want. I am. But I just kind of wanted to get your take on it. Like, once a man goes through this kind of progression, how does he see the opposite sex? How does he. Because you said men should see every man's allies instead of competition. Totally agree with that. I Think somebody move into the space, kind of can see how we need women and how women need us even more than we did before. So I've said a lot. I don't know if I said anything really, but I kind of want to put it in your court.
Jason Lange: Yeah, Well, I think part of this is a big edge for a lot of men. And what I mean by that is a lot of men I work with, part of the confusion and frustration they have in life and in the world right now is they. They don't really have a model of what they should be. So there's a lot of talk in the culture about what men should not be. Toxic, masculine. This is bad, this is bad, this is bad. So a lot of men get confused then, like, well, like, what am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to be? And we're at this really unique time where, right. You know, in the 50s, 60s in particular, women's liberation started, and women were able to kind of come out into the world, into the workforce, be liberated from just kind of being mothers and the traditional roles they were in. And that's been amazing. Like, that is a great positive development. The. Our side of that, the men's side of that. It started a little later. Honestly, it was really kind of the early 90s. Robert Bly. Some of these guys started out. You know, when I first started doing men's work in the, like, around 2005, people, you know, there was very. There was no talk about it. It was like this weird little mysterious thing on the corner of the planet these days. It's getting huge, right? Men's work is an actual movement. And so men are a little behind in what I would say in terms of their liberation from. For them, it's kind of coming inward, coming into their bodies, coming into their emotions. Being able to have an internal world and experience, not just having to push through everything. And these are both really positive developments. And part of what we get to do, you know, as leaders, I would argue, is create a model, right, to, hey, guys, here's where you can be, right? You can be emotional and vulnerable and powerful. Like, a lot of guys don't realize that those things, they. They can go hand in hand and they actually reinforce each other. And what I found as guys do this work is they do become more empathetic and compassionate and are actually able to become allies for the feminine, for women in the world. And one of the hardest things, you know, one of my teachers taught me that not all men are up for. I'll be straight But I think it's one of the most powerful things men can do is to take responsibility. So it's not to take the blame for all the damage that men have done. It's not like, my fault, but it's, hey, I want to be part of the solution and take responsibility for the fact a lot of men caused a lot of damage for a long history. Right. Still happening in parts of the world. And part of. You know what I would argue where that. Where the masculine is so dangerous, where men can be the most damaging and dangerous, is when we're disconnected from our hearts, when we remove the relational component. So when. Right when we are not in our hearts, we can do pretty horrible things. And so as men come back into our hearts, I actually think there's a higher order of responsibility needed that's like, hey, I didn't create this mess, but I want to take responsibility to help get us out. And we can't do it alone. And women can't do it alone. We got to work hand in hand on this. And a lot of women, you know, they want more vulnerable men. And then a man shows up and is vulnerable, and they don't know what to do with it. Like, I'll be honest about that. They're like, oh, my God, what do I do? Like, and, you know, some of the stuff us men experience, we. You're right, there are some differences, and we experience it in a different way. Like, whether that's, you know, suicidal ideation or just giving up and feeling totally collapsed, like, this is stuff a lot of men experience. And they. They might try to bring that to a woman, to their partner, and their woman's like, whoa, I don't know what to do with that. That's, like, scary to me. And where I find that's the most challenging is for, again, for a lot of us men, because of man box and patriarchal culture. Mark, a lot of men were taught from a very young age, never show vulnerability to another man. If you do, you're going to be mocked, made fun of for it, called weak, whatever that might be. And many of us then learn to relate to each other as men through triangulation. Which means me and you, we build our connection by having our attention on a third thing. A sporting game, an activity, a car race, some, you know, movies or whatever. We're talking about things rather than talking to each other a lot of times. And so this all adds up to oftentimes, for many men, one of the only places they feel safe eventually to bring their emotional self is to their intimate partner to their woman. And then they're like, oh my God, I have all this going on. You want me to be vulnerable? Here it is. And then the woman's like, oh, shit, that's a lot to hold. That scares me. Like, you need me to hold that? Like, what am I going to do? The antidote to that, you know, just to bring it back here, in my opinion, is it's totally different when a man brings forward his feelings and his vulnerability to his woman, let's say, and she can feel he's being held by other men in his life. Oh, yeah, I'm working, I'm working this with my men and man, I'm. This job is killing me and I'm not really sure what to do. And you know, it's, it's painful. I'm talking about talking about it with my guys every day. And I just want you to know I'm working on it. Feel so different energetically for a woman when she can feel that there's someone else holding this man and then they're like, oh, okay, well, he doesn't need me to fix it. He just wants me to kind of know what's going on. So I didn't directly answer your question there, but there's so much loaded here that we have to learn to trust women more. And one of the things we can do as men is become more aware of our emotions and get plugged into support outside of our relationship. Because if there's one thing I've seen that's very challenging for women, Mark, it's when we want them to both be our lover and our mother at the same time. And that doesn't work, right? Oh my God. I'm like, help me. I'm lost now. Will you have sex with me? Like, it don't work, right? It just doesn't work. But when we can bring some of that struggle to our men, it allows us to show up in our relationships in a different way. And I think women are appreciative of that. And you know, I've done co ed work through the years in a lot of workshops and stuff. And I could tell you, particularly over the age of 35, man, you get into some of these relational spaces, workshops and stuff. It's a lot of women and it's a lot of women saying, where the hell are all the conscious men? Like, we are ready. Where are all the men who are doing this work? And so it's one of the things I, you know, dangle is a bit of a Carrot to a lot of guys I work with, that's like, you realize if you do this work, if you become emotionally available and take responsibility for yourself, your wounding, your presence, all that kind of stuff, you are a rare man in the world right now and literally can have the pick of the litter, so to speak. Like, you are a rare commodity in terms of women who are ready for available men who will meet them, who will not collapse or attack or defend, but are just there for a relationship. So there's a lot of benefit to stepping into this work.
Host: There. There are so many things that you just mentioned that I have. I mean, this is one of those times in the show where I tell people, like, pause it right now and go back five to seven minutes and relisten to all of that. Because. And I want to mention this because this is, you know, I. I give people their flowers when they're due because that whole time that, that, that you spoke, at no point did you say, men do this, but, like, you never turned it on. Hey, but the women need to do, like. And, you know, I don't think you understand, like, how refreshing that is. Like, I don't think you understand. Like, you mentioned, you know, taking responsibility, not fault. And at no point after that was like. But the women need to do the same. Like, it was at that. Like, and. And I think there needs to be more of that in this type of work. And. And everybody knows that person they work with. They. Their. Their friend, whoever it is, they'll. They'll bring up some kind of opportunity. Yeah, I did this. But what about this? And what. And it's like, wait a second. Let's. Let's focus. Let's focus on. On the goal. And if anybody has listened to any of these shows or the 6am show and, or any shows I've been on, I talked about the deflection talk all the time. Like, I talk. I don't know how many women have asked me, like, hey, Mark, how do. How do men know how to start the conversation? And it's like, we'll come into a room and we'll literally just sit down and say, oh, man, what.
Jason Lange: What a day.
Host: And right then. And there is kind of the opening. It's a little opening. Like, we won't. A lot of us like me, I will. If I've had a tough day, I will come in. But a lot of men who are. Haven't done this work, they'll do that. And then what usually happens is we say, oh, man, no problem. Grab a beer, watch this game with me. Let's go. Like, we always deflect, reflect it. And it's like, no, that's your opportunity right there. That is your. That is your opportunity to open up, to speak. And I don't think I've ever said it as well as you did, but there is something you did bring up for the second time, and it's. You call it the man box. So I'm going to give you the opportunity because I want to know, like, I think I know, but I don't want to assume anything. When you say man box, what do you mean by that?
Jason Lange: Yeah, so it's a term that a guy came up with out of Oakland. I can't remember his right name, but I'll send it to you for the show notes. He works with men, right? It's a term he came up with that's. Yeah, it's basically the. The list of checkboxes that men are expected to conform to. Don't be weak. Don't show your emotions. Don't be vulnerable. So it's this kind of implicit cultural list that men are expected to conform to, and if we don't, we're considered not a man. And, you know, there's some variation on that in different cultures around the world, but there's a lot of consistency in a sense, and that's part of what we're. You know, I'm wanting to burst here is that a lot of. Sometimes women don't understand some of the conditioning men are brought up in and how narrow a range we're often allowed to be. You know, for. For a lot of men, they're the only emotion maybe considered manly that they can display is anger. Right. Anything other. Anything other than that, oh, that guy's a pussy, or that guy's weak, or, you know, he doesn't have a. Together. Like, this stuff is pervasive, and it extremely narrows the range of experience men are allowed to have. So part of what this work is doing is a. We get to kind of burst the man box and, you know, create a new version of it that's a little more expansive and inclusive in terms of our humanness. That, yeah, there's. There's definitely gender differences, but we're all human in the end, you know, in some important way. And for a lot of men, just this idea that, oh, my God, you mean I'm allowed to have feelings, I'm allowed to have needs, I'm allowed to be afraid, I'm allowed. Allowed to be scared? These things are revelatory for a Lot of men, when they realize, oh, I can do that, and I don't have to resist that all the time. You know, the. The kind of physiology of this that I see, Mark, is, you know, one way we can think about anytime we want to not feel an emotion, what that actually does to us. So anytime a man decides to not feel an emotion, consciously or not, how we do that, like if you imagine you saw a little kid crying, you know, pretty heavy, and you want him to stop, you'd walk up to him, you say, stop crying. And what you'd see that kid do is stop breathing. And they would actually tighten their body so the musculature tightens up. We literally hold the emotion in our tissues, right? And you've maybe heard the platitude, right? Emotion, energy in motion. It's meant to move through us and cause action, right? To be responsive. When we're not allowed to feel emotion, we hold it. So what do a lot of men walk through the world doing holding an incredible amount of tension in their bodies, actual musculature. Tension in that tension takes energy. They feel stressed out, they feel anxious, they feel numb, they feel exhausted. And every time we're not feeling, this stuff is accumulating in our body, like I said. And then as we age, it starts to show up in our tissues, right? The issues are in the tissues. And this has such a profound impact on men. I mean, it is wild to me. I'll. You know, sometimes on retreat, I'll be doing some deep work with a man, and he'll go somewhere and express something he never felt safe to or never was allowed to. Sometimes, I mean. I mean, I'm not kidding here. Sometimes stuff that is decades old, going back to, you know, childhood anger, frustration, or some kind of grief or fear, and it comes through the body, and it's like watching a human being transform. The tension around the eyes and in the face starts to melt away. Their whole body becomes softer, their breath deepens, their voice lowers. It's like, oh, now I'm here. I didn't realize how much I was holding all of these years. And that has such a huge cost for us men. And it's the man box that kind of. Again, it's this idea of, like, compressing around men. Just hold it all in. Hold it all in. Don't. Don't let anything out. And it. I mean, frankly, it kills us. It kills men. And then when they're not. When we're not taught what to do with that, what are we allowed to do in our Culture, we can drink it off, smoke it off, jerk it off. Those are the ways we try to get rid of these feelings that are stuck in our body. For a lot of men, they reach for alcohol, weed, tv, booze, sex, you know, you name it. That's what a lot of men are doing, are trying to eject their feelings. And what we're, you know, what I'm partially taking a stand for here is there's a better way. And the, the vitality that comes back to men on the other side is just, I mean, it's amazing. It's just like, wow, I'm alive again. I can feel I have some resource in my body. I'm not holding all this tension. So, yeah, man. Yeah, I could, I could keep going, but I'll take a break here.
Host: I, I would have kept listening, to be honest. I would have kept listening because people need to hear this. People need to hear this. It, it. You cannot say this enough because we're not going to wake up tomorrow and, you know, the, the next grimy male lead in a new movie is going to be a guy who doesn't have a connection with his kids.
Jason Lange: Yep.
Host: Smokes, drinks, doesn't take care of his body, but, hey, he's good at solving crimes.
Jason Lange: Yeah, exactly.
Host: And we accept that from him. He's good, he's, he's great at managing a, a football team or a baseball team. Like, he's a good. But has he talked about his feelings with another man? Has he, has he just. How much sleep is he getting? What kind of diet? I mean, what kind of food? Nothing is right in his life. But we envy that guy because, oh, he's so cool and down to earth. And that's the guy that's, that's a man's man. Like, we can't make it. We can't make a movie that's like, hey, the guy woke up in the morning, he asked his kids how their day was. He made them breakfast. He got up, he told his boss, listen, I can't make it to the meeting today. I have, My kids have a base. I have boundaries and my wife.
Jason Lange: Totally.
Host: We don't like that guy. Yeah, we don't like that. That would absolutely tank at the movie theater. That would tank. And it, I mean, we're laughing and it's, it's funny, but it's so unfortunate, too. It really is unfortunate, but. So I, I, I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit here because I want you to. I mean, not really. You probably answered this question Before, I don't really ask that many direct questions, but, you know, there's women that are listening to this show, and you've mentioned the work that, that we need to do to make sure we're helping each other out. And you mentioned something very, very, very poignant, which is, it's hard to be a lover and a mother at the same time. To. To a man. Like, that is just a difficult thing to do. But how does. How do women help in this? Like, we've been talking a lot about men's group and. And you mentioned that it does help women when we have a good, solid male team behind us. I can tell you right now, I know exactly who my team is. Like, I talked to half of them this weekend. We just caught up. I know exactly who they are. You know, they're. They're the men who I have no problem saying I love. I love you on the phone, too. I miss you, man. I wish you could. Like, I have no problem doing that. But women, how do they help? How do they get involved? What is their kind of role in all of this?
Jason Lange: Yeah, there's two things that come up off the bat here for me. One, which is just like, extraordinary generosity, in a sense, is if there's one thing I've seen just like, oh, hit the heart of men and often nourish them. It's. It's appreciation. Right. So it's a woman taking the time to appreciate a man for what he's doing or even what he's trying to do, even if it's not successful. Oh, I see. You're really trying to show up differently for me. And, you know, I just want you to know, like, I see that. I appreciate it. Or, wow, Yeah, I know you worked really hard this weekend so we could get that little extra cash and, you know, do X, Y or Z. Those little moments of appreciation are so nourishing for the masculine a lot of times because most men. Right. Most men who have a masculine orientation are running around with this inner voice that constantly is saying, I'm not enough. I'm losing. Right. In the game of life, we're either winning or losing. And for a lot of men, every second of every day, we're constantly making these micro calculations. I'm losing in this, I'm winning in this, I'm losing in this, I'm losing in this. And often the feeling is, I'm not enough. I'm not emotional enough for my partner, I'm not handsome enough for my partner. I don't make enough money. And so one of the great gifts the feminine can bring us is taking the time to just appreciate how hard we're trying. Like, that is one great gift you can give to slow him down, look him in the eyes, really appreciate how hard you're trying in life. That for one. The other one, which I would say is a little riskier. This is. And I'm not saying this is easy, I'm not saying this is even fair in a sense, but it's. Don't hold back your heart. So for a lot of women, they have the experience, and rightly so, that men can't handle their emotions or the full breadth of their feeling. And so they'll start to hold back how much something hurts. Oh, when you didn't call me back or when you left the fucking dish on the table or whatever, this stuff. And if there's one thing I've, you know, one of the many things I've seen wake men up, it's when a woman brings the fullness of her heart of like it is. I'm. I'm in so much pain with what's happening here. It's literally tearing me apart. And they're not blaming, they're not saying it's your fault. It's just here revealing. Here's my. Here's what's happening for me.
Host: Here's.
Jason Lange: Here's what it feels like in my body. And it's brave as to do that. Not every man's going to be able to receive it, but it's one of the ways you can discover what kind of man you're really with, to reveal the truth of your heart and not hold back. And it's that, that like, direct felt body experience when the feminine is there and just brings it to the masculine. That's often the thing that'll wake us up of, wow, I had, I didn't actually know, you know, like, you've kind of been complaining and some stuff, but now I'm feeling like how much your heart is breaking. I want to do this different. I'm going to go get some help. Or, you know, I don't know what that would be. And that, you know, that takes capacity. So it's much easier for me to say that than for a lot of women to do that. Because a lot of the reason many women learn to not do that is because most men can't handle it, right? They can't handle that feedback. They get defensive, they go on the attack, they withdraw and disappear. They become a lawyer and try to argue their woman out of their Feelings like, you know, these are all legit things that men do. But for some men, the only wake up call will actually be feeling the truth of your heart where you just bring it. And it's so vulnerable and it's so powerful to. When women just do that, like, I can't do this anymore, right. Whatever that truth might be, it's hurting me. And that'll, that'll often wake men up. So there's, there's kind of two sides there. There's the just being generous and appreciating man, and then also just revealing the truth of your heart would be kind of my M.O. for women. I.
Host: And I, I want to add just a little bit to that last point because you're, you're absolutely right. I believe it has to be followed up with the right kind of communication, too, because I think you're absolutely right that we need to see the real version of each other. I need to see who you're going to be at your most fiery, explicit, vulnerable. I need to see that person and you need to see my reaction. And we need to talk about it because I think that's how we learn more about each other. And, and I can say from, from my own history, I, you know, once I got to the point of, okay, I'm not just going to be this stubborn old man yelling at kids. I'm not going to go to my little corner and make people feel bad for me. Like, look, I was yelled at, like, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna live in this moment for a second, for a minute, for an hour, whatever it is, a day. If, and then I'm going to talk about it, then we're going to discuss it. And I think those are. And of course, the first point, go. I, I cannot tell you how hard and easy something is for so many people. Like the words, you know what? I appreciate what you're doing for us. I appreciate what you're doing. Like, so, so easy to say. So hard to say. Like, it's just. And it, it means so much to men. It means so much. I, I am. Okay, I'm moving on.
Jason Lange: So.
Host: Jason, I really appreciate it. I mean, it's. Listen, this is the conversation, let's be honest, the conversation that, that a lot of us need to have. We need to have. And we need to have it open. And honestly, like, if we feel like this isn't the way to go. If we feel like, Jason, I don't believe in anything. You're like, let's have that conversation, too. Like, let's be inclusive. Let's, you know, if the, if everybody in the world thought like me, then yeah, it wouldn't be a great place. We'd laugh all day and get nothing done at work. So, I mean, that's, that's how it would be. So, Jason, this has been absolutely amazing. Before that you go, how do people learn more about you? How do they get in touch with you online? How do they just learn all the great stuff that you're doing?
Jason Lange: Yeah. Easiest thing to do is to visit my website, which is evolutionary.men. so it's not dot com, it's dot men. In on there, you can learn a little bit more about me. I got my own podcast. You can just listen to me if, if you're into kind of what I'm speaking here. I have different programs that I run for men. Some live retreats, some men's groups, that different kind of stuff. So it's just a way to kind of plug in and start to get my vibration. You can certainly join my mailing list as well. And then, yeah, I'm on all the socials as well. I don't have a huge presence there. But, you know, I put. Put out enough that you can. I'll stay in your consciousness a bit. And, you know, I, I consider it just an invitation. Like if. If this stirs something in you, trust your impulse. And if it's not right now, but, you know, maybe this plants a seed in six months, 12 months from now. You're like, oh, yeah, wow. Actually, I do feel something. I need some help. And I think if there's one thing, I'll just end with here. If, if there's anything more game changing for men than this, I don't know it, but it's. You can ask for help. As a man, it's okay to ask for help, right? To just get some help. And in fact, all the things I used to be so guilty of, this struggling so hard to try to make it work alone, and I can't ask for help. And then someone helps me and I'm like, oh, man, I just wasted like six months trying to figure that out. And that was so much easier just getting a little help there, right? It really can make a difference, guys.
Host: Yes, you could ask for help. And if there's any NFL players listening, you can wear long sleeves in cold weather, too. I just want to let you know that, like, you can wear long sleeves in cold weather. It's just, oh, I'm cold looking at you. But, Jason, this has been amazing as I Say all the time. You can pause the show right now, head over to the show Notes to get his links, also the link to his podcast. And let me just say this. We, we, we have a good time. I have a good time doing this show. I really enjoy everything I've, every person, guest I've had on here, I really enjoy them and I try to get as much out of them as possible. But if you go back to the first show I ever did, which is called Be a Friend, literally, it was the, the reason I started this show was so men can have a place to hear about men and their feelings. It has, it has like evolved. I, I, you know, I have, I didn't want to just keep it there, sure. But, but like I wanted, I wanted people to see a 6 foot 5, 235 pound black man talking about his feelings. That's what I wanted people to see.
Jason Lange: Hell yeah. Hell yeah. I love that.
Host: And to have you on the show, to have these conversations, like, it takes me back. And I know we kind of finished talking about what we, but I wanted to say, this I want you to hear is like, I remember the first week after the first show I made where I received multiple phone calls from men and they all said it wasn't verbatim, but they all basically said the same thing. Mark, you said the thing out loud that I've been thinking for so long and shook me. It really did. I was like, man, I, this is, this is what I'm supposed to do. This is what I'm supposed to do. So that was a story for me to tell you. Thank you. Thank you so much for everything you've done. Energy and energy out is always what I say all the time. Like whatever you put out in the world, you expect to get that back. If you're, if you're negative, if you see yourself as having to struggle because you're a man, you see yourself having to keep everything in because you're a man. Like, you're going to see that in the world too. Like, you're going to see it. You're going to hear everything a father, a grandfather or someone told a boy a long time, but you're going to, you're going to feel all that stuff. And is this easy, Jason? Jason will answer. Is Jason, is this process easy? Is it an easy process? He'll answer right now. Go ahead.
Jason Lange: It's not easy, but as I say, life gets better. Doesn't get easier, but it gets better.
Host: I, I will, I will take that bet any day of the week. Twice on Sunday, Sundays. That's what I'll do. Jason, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for being a part of the show. Continue doing what you're doing and I look forward to having you back on the show. Man, this was amazing. Thank you.
Jason Lange: Thanks for having me.
Host: Mark. A huge shout out to our guests this week. Jason Lange, please check him out. Please have these conversations. I love having these conversations. And to any men out there, if you just need somebody to talk to, please reach out to either myself or Jason. His information will be in the show. Notes Relatively Normal is written, produced and edited by me. Mark Pazant as always, if you or someone you know is in crisis, Please contact the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline by dialing 988-text home to 741741 to reach a trained crisis counselor through Crisis Text Line, a global not for profit organization. It is free, it is confidential and it is available 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Take care of yourself.
Jason Lange: Sa.
