Power of Man #293 – Men’s Guide, Jason Lange!!! | Power of Man Podcast

Host: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Power Man Podcast. My name is Rory Paquette. I know you know that already, but, folks, I just love to say that, hear it out loud, because it. It reminds me to be grateful for the fact that I get to sit in this chair and I get to talk to all of you on a now a daily basis. When we went to five days a while back, you folks, you showed up and, you know, I was wondering, I was like, can you really take listening to me and all these guys I bring on here, five days? And not only did you, but we grew even more. So I pushed the envelope one more, and I brought us to seven days just a little while ago. And you folks responded with a whole bunch of dms talking about, you know, hey, no more than seven days, okay? So I promise we won't drop daily episodes more than seven days in a week. You guys have my word we're going to be okay right there. But thank you so much, all of you, for the DMs and the shares and the subscribes. The growth's been insane, and I wouldn't be able to sit here doing what I'm doing if you're not out there doing what you're doing. So bless all you folks. Now, if you're a friend of the program, I know you know what's coming, and we do need to pay a couple of bills, so let me take a sip of my preferred beverage. Mm, man, fantastic stuff. And you know what we're drinking. That's right. It's Freedom Hill Coffee at Freedom Hill Coffee on Instagram. Go check them out. Look them up. Deep, dark, rich, bold, and beautiful. Just like my wife. They brew a mean cup of joe. It's an absolutely fantastic company. They do all the right things for all the right reasons, and they support veterans, which is a huge, huge, huge reason why we here at the Power Man Podcast support them. If you're a veteran out there, it doesn't matter if you're a man or woman. If you're a veteran out there, we love you, we thank you for your service, and this is your home. And I'm happy that you're here, folks. Go check them out. Freedom Hill Coffee at Freedom Hill Coffee on Instagram. Let me get one more sip of this so I can keep up with this young buck across the table from me. Oh, there we go. All right. When I first came across this gentleman, one of the. One of the tenants that he was talking about was talking about men's groups and talking about how it doesn't matter what group you're in, but be in one. And I loved his philosophy. I loved the theories that he has. I love what he has to say. Love his podcast. Folks, you're going to enjoy this message a lot. Believe me, this guy belongs on this podcast. I'm really glad he's here with us today. Please welcome men's embodiment coach, group facilitator, and evolutionary guide, as well as the host of the podcast Evolution Men, Jason Lange. Jason, how you doing today, brother?

Jason Lange: So pumped to be here, Rory. Thanks for having me, man.

Host: Thank you. Appreciate that very much. I know we have a lot to talk about. We got a lot to get to. Before we roll into all that. Give everybody an idea who is Jason, you know, what are you about? What brings you here today, brother?

Jason Lange: Yeah, well, you. You've already kind of hit the nail on the head. My mission in the world is I think every man should be in a men's group. And it's really born out of my own journey as a man, having now been sitting in circles for about 20 years. And it really started because, you know, every man's on a unique journey. Mine was what led me to men's work and men's groups and, you know, I'm a white guy raised in the lower middle class of the Midwest in the 80s and 90s. A lot of my basic security needs provided for me. But something I became very. Something that became very apparent to me as I hit adolescence and beyond was my family had no capacity for emotional connection or physical connection and interiority. And it took me many, many years to unpack what that neglect did to me and my well being as a man, particularly in terms of how I felt in my body. I was able to connect in relationships and essentially it just left me in a deep place of suffering and pain that led me on a journey to, okay, there's gotta be a better way to feel right? There's gotta be a better way to do this.

Host: And.

Jason Lange: Probably more than anything else, what really tipped. Tipped me over the edge into a place of really making traction for how to live a better life was when I got into men's groups and men's circles and experienced the power of really men's work and kind of inner growth and healing. And, you know, since I got into the work in the kind of mid-2000s, I mean, the need has just gone up, you know, with everything that's kind of playing out culturally with technology. Men, as you well know, are in a lot of pain right now and need a lot of Help. The stats are pretty bleak, pretty brutal in terms of the levels of isolation men report, the impact that has on their mental, emotional and physical health, and even just the rates of suicide. Right. Whether veterans or not, it's like four times as likely as a man to commit suicide. And in my mind, and certainly what I, what is now borne out in my experience and the work I lead other men in is one of the best medicines for that, is just deep, meaningful connection to other men. And without that, we suffer. And we suffer deeply.

Host: Yeah, I could not agree with everything you said more than I do. It's when you first made the move to get into a men's group, you know, I, we all have to make that first step. Was it something that gave you hesitancy or pause? Were you like, hey, what am I getting into? Or were you, you know, well versed in kind of jumping in?

Jason Lange: I didn't really know what I was getting into. I was in my mid-20s and it was all kind of new. And you know, at that point, really, if you said men's group, people would generally refer to either like AA type groups, recovery groups, or certain faith based, faith based groups. And I hadn't quite experienced, you know, men's work as a men's type group. So I got into it and I didn't really know what I was doing. I knew that I valued other men and that simultaneously, part of me was pretty uncomfortable with other men. One thing I did notice, you know, as I grew up and kind of became aware of some of the unique experiences I had, was even in high school, let's say, I, I had male friends. I've always been lucky if I've actually had good, good men around me, but I didn't necessarily know how to connect with them. And so I would see all my friends kind of horse playing and wrestling and just have like a level of closeness at a physical, at just a physical basis that I did not. It was not a default in my nervous system at all. And it initially made me extremely uncomfortable. And getting into men's circles and men's groups was one of the places I started to kind of reformat that. And it was both scary and exciting for me as I stepped into those environments and realized maybe for the first place ever, this was a place where I couldn't hide and guys would see my patterns, my wounding and my protections in a sense, which is both terrifying, like I said, but ultimately quite engaging and exciting and what helped open me up to, wow, okay, I. I don't have to do all this alone. And these guys, they love me, they care about me. And some of the biggest shifts and moves I made in my life were because of the circles I was sitting in that I'm pretty confident I wouldn't have made any other for any other reason. You know, I was. Even at the time before my first men's circles, really, I was. You know, and this is not a knock on it, but I was in therapy. I was doing talk therapy. And what I came to realize was my. My protection mechanisms were so sophisticated. I could sit across from my therapist and kind of really, in a way, talk around vulnerability. Like, you know, I knew how to far to take it to, you know, make them think I was opening or something like that. But part of what blew me away about men's group is, you know, it's partly a dosage thing. You know, groups can range in size, but let's say you got six, seven, eight other men. That's that many guys who have their eyes on you. And all it takes is one man whose, you know, tuning fork is a little different, to catch something else going on in your nervous system where everyone's like, oh, he seems fine, but one guy, even just one guy, is like, I don't know, there's something about you, the way they said that, that I'm curious, like, what's going on under that? And then, boom. You know, it's like, oh, yeah, you're right. I'm totally terrified, or I'm totally scared to share this or whatever. And that was a really significant piece of group for me, that I was like, oh, I can't fool eight other guys. It's just. It doesn't happen. That level of presence and attention forces things to be seen that sometimes I was reluctant to. And, you know, again, that might sound intimidating, but ultimately, I think it's something so many men are actually deeply craving. To be known, seen, and acknowledged for who they are. And to be, as I call it, the. To experience the spinach in the teeth moment of, wow. Here's another man who cares about me so much, he's going to point out when I have spinach in my teeth, meaning there's something about my present moment that is not optimal, in a sense. But he's, like, calling me forward, right? Like, hey, man, you know, I see this is happening for you. Are you aware of that? And it's like, oh, wow. No. And I really think that's something most men don't even realize they're aching for, which is, you know, put it a little More bluntly, like someone who loves them enough to call them on their. Whether it's how they're showing up in work and their family, with their kids, with their own health, and not in a shameful knocking you down way, but in a man. I know your heart. I know who you are. I know your soul. I've spent time with you, and you're not hidden your potential and it hurts to see you in pain. So I'm bringing this forward out of love. And as I've continued to experience that over the years and at opportunities gotten to bring that to other men, it's really quite profound what kind of bonding and connection that creates.

Host: That's amazing. You unpacked so much just now, brother. Let me. Let me go back and pick out a couple of little pieces. First of all, you know, you mentioned being closed off and incapable of emotion and things like that. The. Very often when men find themselves in this position, we blame ourselves as if there's something wrong with us. And also, very often we have spouses who blame us and inform us that there's something wrong with us. I think the fact of the matter that gets lost a lot is that we are all products of our upbringing in a lot of ways also. And especially men who are. And you're younger than I am, but we're still, you know, within, you know, a decade or two of each. But we. We kind of had that, you know, with parents that were standoffish. They were. Didn't really believe in hugs or, you know, supportive language. It was just discipline, raise the kid, you know, mom's job, maybe to give a hug, but not dads, you know, and that type of thing. Was that the upbringing you had? Was it more harsh than that, or was it kind of like that way?

Jason Lange: Yeah, it defaulted more to that. You know, my. My mom's side of the family came from Germany and had this just very kind of keep it all inside, don't really express, don't share feelings, perform energy to it. My dad was a little softer, but he didn't have a whole lot of capacity. And. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's so wild looking at kind of the. The. That those generations from, you know, honestly, even from like the. The late forties to, I would include maybe through millennials, the Dr. Spock generation. Right. Like, so when you imagine human history and how people, how children were raised, basically you go to any kind of indigenous culture around the world. When you're a baby, you're always held. There's. There's no crib there's no. Somebody is with you, holding you all the time. It's not necessarily mom or dad. You have aunts and uncles and family and people around, but someone is always with the kid. And this whole kind of, particularly in America, this post industrial, suburban nuclear family thing, which was just invented, like, they literally just created it out of nowhere. And then all this kind of strange Western psychology that came in, where I don't know if you were part of this, but many generations were raised with just leave them in the crib and let them cry it out. What was the actual. How kids were taught to regulate themselves. And there is nothing natural about that. So there's a whole generation of men and women that were just experiencing that for one. And then two, you're pointing to something deeper, which is this more cultural phenomenon we call the man box, right? Which is this idea, they call it the man box because it's basically a box that you're either inside or out. And to be inside of it, you have to check certain attributes as to what it means to be a man. And our culture has some pretty strong ones, right? Which is, number one, being a man. Being masculine is being invulnerable. It's not sharing weakness. It's not emoting too much. It's definitely not asking for help. And, you know, this just goes on and on and on into these deep things. And essentially, if you don't check those boxes, you're not considered a man. And so there's this kind of pressure of how we're supposed to be as men that is actually extremely damaging to us. And it's interesting, right? I came across this piece of research maybe a year or two ago that really broke this down where these sociologists were interviewing people, both men and women. And this is what's really interesting. So they interviewed, they pulled both men and women about, okay, what marks these two transitions, the transition from being a girl to a woman and from being a boy to a man. And this isn't right or wrong, but again, I'm just showing what's in the culture here. Both men and women reported back similarly that when it comes to girls being seen as women, mostly, what we say has to do with that is biological. They've developed. They have a cycle, their body has changed. Right. They're actually in their womanhood. And so these are physical attributes. Oh, she. She's a woman now. She. Right. She's not a girl anymore. But when it came to boys, to men, it was not based on biology. It was based on cultural expectation of how are they showing up and behaving? Meaning you could have a fully mature in his body, 25 year old man, but he's still considered a boy in his culture, his tribe, his family, etc. Because he's failed the launch or whatever. And I think that just ties into again some of these expectations we have as men. And what is so damaging, particularly for us guys is like you said, I think us in particular, we are not taught from a very early age what it means to be in our bodies and what it means to connect to our emotions. So from the earliest age, right? We still see this today and it's kind of brutal, it's changing. But you know, little girl falls down, little boy falls down, little girl, oh, how you doing? Are you okay? Little boy flies down, you're fine, get up, you're tough, right? That feeling you're having in your body, override it with your head. Be tough. And then so a lot of boys get this from a very young age. And then we go into the school system, right, which you know, they've done tons of research right now and they're like, if you really want boys to thrive in school, basically what you need to let them do is run around for about two hours and be extremely physical. Then their nervous systems regulate, then they can learn. But most schooling is not set up that way. Instead, boys from a young age are taught, sit in your chair, don't move. If you're moving, there's something wrong with you.

Host: Right?

Jason Lange: Right. You have attention deficit disorder or you're a bad kid or whatever that might be. So again, ignore that impulse to move in your body as a boy and sit still. And then we go up to adolescence where then it becomes peer related, where you know, boys, bodies are changing at different times. There's being in, there's being cool. And what we most boys learn pretty quickly is to fit in, I have to not show weakness.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: I got to be tough. And then it just keeps continuing. We get out of, out of there, into the workforce. What a men tend to get rewarded for and be valued for. Oh my God. Yeah, he works like 60 hours a week. He's such an incredible worker. He just shows up, he grinds, he pushes himself. Ignore your body, push, push, push. So just at all kinds of levels from a young age, men and boys in particular are taught to be and actually rewarded for being disembodied for not being connected to our bodies. And in the work I do, and I'm intuiting you're in align with this Emotions, lo and behold, start as physical sensations in our bodies. And so if we're not in our bodies, guess what? It's very hard for us to tune into our emotional state. And because our. We often don't receive training on what that is. What I have seen is what happens with most men is we, you know, we. We step into the world and no one has taught us to identify what we're feeling in our bodies or our emotional selves. So we don't even know how to identify it, let alone how to name it, express it, and what to do with it. So all this stuff's happening inside of us. We don't have a way to put language around it or share it or express it. People then get mad at us, including sometimes our spouses of, like, what are you feeling? I just. I don't feel you right. So many men get that, and it drives us off and crazy. We're like, what do you mean? Because the language we were given was the range of good, bad, and fine. It's like, you know, that was all I could do for about 10 years. People, I don't know. I'm fine. What do you mean? It took me a long time to build the capacity to actually be able to differentiate what was happening inside myself. But then, since we can't identify it, we don't know what it is. Things happen to us. Life is stressful, right? We have dysregulating emotions or feelings in our body. No one has taught us how to identify them, what to do with them. So what do we do? We turn to the medicines that are acceptable in our culture as men. We drink, we smoke, we try to have sex, we use porn, we overwork. We turn to things outside of ourselves to try to deal with that dysregulated inner state, which might provide some temporary relief, but almost never gets to the crux of it. So as our lives progress, we accumulate more and more of this emotional debt in our bodies. That in particular, you know, I'm mid-40s now, and I work with a lot of guys older than me. And, you know, it's around that middle age that, you know, I like to say a lot of, you know, men, we kind of come in with a preloaded debit card of a certain amount of energy and chi, and we're just punching it for that first, you know, 30, 35 years. Late nights, more coffee, partying, you know, whatever. I'm just gonna boom. You kind of start to hit the. Your. Your 40s and definitely your 50s. It's like nope, that's gonna catch up to you. There's not unlimited energy there in vitality. And energy management becomes a huge thing for most men I know when they, you know, as they get older, where they have kids or family or whatnot. And again, to kind of tie it all together, all of that unprocessed emotional stuff inside of us takes Metabolic Resource. And so this is, you know, just a little on a mind, a demo I give here of, you know, imagine there's that four year old boy and he's feeling hurt or scared or in an emotionally grieving place and he's crying and you come up to that boy and you know, this stuff still does happen and someone's stop crying. How does the boy do it? They hold their breath, tighten their body, literally. We stop the emotion by tightening up and holding it inside of ourselves. And there's more and more research now pointing to this, right, in terms of somatics and body work, the fascia in our body. And I was even reading one thing down to like the cellular level, certain things freeze up to try to create stability in our system by not having to deal with it. And the point is holding takes energy. And so another example anyone listening could do right now, if I'm like, okay, just, I just want you to tense up all the muscles in your body, right? Flex your biceps, your core right now. And it's like, okay, that's not too bad. But now hold this for the next hour. Gets very fatiguing extremely fast in while not quite that extreme, that is happening for so many men at a physical, embodied and emotional level of all this unprocessed emotional content. We're taught we're weak if we have tears, we're taught fear is something we should just push through. And so, and for some guys I work with, right, the more nice guys, we grew up seeing the damaging effects of male aggression. So we even shut down our own anger in vitality and hold that inside and bite our tongue or want to be nice. And whole point of it is all this stuff gets frozen inside. We're expected to behave a certain way because the man box and it sets us up to kind of lose, frankly, right? We're not given the skills and tools we need to thrive in an increasingly stressful world, I would say. And so more and more men, right then the last thing we're taught is, you know, whatever you do, don't share any of that with another man. So hold it inside. And this is where the isolation, the depression, the numbing, the addictions and I would. You can point to a lot of the suicide start to rack up for men.

Host: I love that last point about how, you know, for a very long time we were taught don't ever share it around other men. I feel as though that has changed quite a bit, that one piece of it. I mean, everything else. I agree with you completely. That is still in play. You can't show any of that stuff. You know, there's the old adage that says, you know, your wife, your daughter, your family would rather see you die on your horse than fall off of it. You know, type of thing. I've never been a big proponent of sharing emotions like that, you know, letting the family see you weak type of thing. But that's because I've always been a proponent of men's groups. And, you know, that's where you let your emotions out is actually with your men's group, where it's safe, where you have brotherhood type of thing. Now I know that you're in favor of the men's group and I'm always open to another opinion, which is another reason why I love having conversations like this. What's your feeling on. On that in terms of men opening up more with spouses, with family, with that type of thing, at least in terms of maybe things they're worried about, they're stressed about, you know, that kind of deal.

Host: Right, right.

Jason Lange: Dads and grandfathers, kind of that more stoic, just don't, don't show it. And so, lo and behold, we don't know how to show it. We don't know what to do with it. And that is, I think, a great gift to our children is normalizing as a human being. You are going to have emotions and there's ways to work with them, and that's not a problem. And frankly, the better you are at working with them, the less power they have over you and the less you have to fear them.

Host: Nice.

Jason Lange: I'll stop my diatribe there.

Host: Not at all. I loved it, really, because you really did answer the question that I brought up and then some. And I appreciate the thoroughness that you answered it with. It wasn't just a flippant answer, you know, So I, I do. I appreciate that very much. As I'm listening to, you know, what you're saying, there's, of course, I'm thinking of all the interactions I've had, you know, with men in terms of the men's groups and whatnot. One of the things I've been hearing a lot more recently, maybe in the last six months, has been men saying, you know, listen, I don't need therapy, as if they're now equating the men's group with therapy. And I've also heard from spouses, you know, they want their husbands in therapy, for instance, and they're like, no, you need to get help. You need to get therapy. And then even the wives are backing into it and saying, at least get into some kind of support group for men or something and get in touch with your emotions. Now, on one hand, it's great to hear that the spouses are open to the alternative of the men's group. But by the same token, there is a, A comparison now with therapy in the men's group. And my worry is that they are not the same at all for men especially. And so I could. I get concerned that they are being seen as the same thing. Have you encountered any of that? You know, if you haven't, I guess. What's your opinion on it? I'd be really curious to hear your thoughts on men's group versus opposed to, along with therapy. Pros, cons. Yeah, yeah.

Jason Lange: Men's groups can, can be deeply therapeutic, but they are not therapy. It is a very different experience in relationship. And I, I kind of bucket it into three categories. Therapy, coaching, and Men's groups and they all have slightly different energy and they're all useful in different ways. And if you really want to be an effective man, guess what? You got to do your cross training, which means sometimes you got to do a little bit of each and sometimes we'll have different seasons for each. In what I have seen is they actually all complement each other quite, quite deeply and well. So you know, therapy is unfortunately one of those things that tends to have a pretty deep stigma for men. And you know, there's a lot of work right now being done to, to change the story on that and there's some languaging things that support that. You know, where a lot of men have this story, you only go to therapy if you're broken and there's something wrong with you. And you know, part of the story I want to tell is do you only go to the gym when you have an injury? No, you go to the gym to promote health and well being and get stronger. Just like we do that for our physical body, we got to do it for our emotional body and our mental body as well. And therapy is an incredible way to do that. And the whole point of therapy, which is even different than a men's group is the direction of attention. It is unidirectional, meaning the whole point is the direction of attunement in a therapeutic relationship is the therapist is putting their attention on you. You are not having to hold space for the therapist. If you are, fire that therapist and find a new one. Right. And it happens. It's crazy to me when I hear these stories sometimes. But the point of that, the, the what's powerful about that is therapy in particular can be potent for healing and in particular healing our attachment wounding which for many people, I mean I've, I've done all kinds of work, co ed work, men's groups. I've been shocked that to a large extent there are people who move through this world that have never had anybody put loving, present attention on them without an agenda, period. Right. I'm just, I'm here to listen, particularly as men. And I just want to hear what's true for you. That in itself is super healing and can go to the core of so many attachment wounds for from when we're kids. And therapy is also powerful because of the rhythm. Right. You're often working with one person very deeply over an extended period of time and that person's giving you their full attention. So I strongly encourage men. Doesn't mean you have to be in therapy forever, but Like I said, there's often seasons where things come up and we realize, I gotta work this. And then like me, you know, I have my therapists on call, meaning sometimes we'll work together for six months to a year and then I'll kind of feel complete around something, but then they're still there. So next time I hit an emergency or something big comes up, they know me, they know my life and I can work through this next pocket. Now that's a little different, I would argue, than coaching, which tends to be a little bit more practical. And I think guys tend to be a little bit more open to, I have this problem, I want to fix it, teach me how to fix it, I want to get better at this. Coaching tends to be a little bit more practical in forward facing in terms of, okay, you have, you want to get from here to here, let's figure that out. Whereas, you know, again, these are generalizations. Therapy tends to be about, okay, what happened back then that's preventing you from being able to do the work to get from here to there. Right, right. Like these old injuries or traumas or whatever that might be. And that's also very valuable. Men's groups are unique and different because the attunement is peer based. Now there's, you know, I lead men's groups, but I'm particularly passionate about the, the most profound ones are when they're peer based, meaning we're just here with each other. But the idea is sometimes I'm holding space for you, sometimes you're holding space for me. We are in a peer based relationship and what that allows for is a pretty profound type of healing that you can't necessarily do in the therapeutic setting or in the coaching setting. Because for men in particular, a lot of the wounding we carry is from socialization with other men. You know, particularly in that 8 to 18 year old time. All kinds of stuff happens and all kinds of stories get formed and patterns get formed in us based on our relationships with other men. And there are some men I work with. Right. That literally just coming and sitting in a circle with other men is extremely edgy for their nervous systems because being in the room with that many men before in their life was dangerous. And. But it can then become a profound healing because of that when, when we get to rewrite those stories so they all have different gifts and purposes and I don't think you can replace them. I will say I think part of the energy behind men's groups right now is again, there was just this brutal stat that Came out of a study about suicides up in Canada. And what they had found for men was, I think it was over 60% of men who ended up committing suicide or attempted to, had actually reached out to some kind of mental health professional. So it's not the story. Even I was thinking that, oh, these guys just. They don't even ask for help. It was. They did ask for help, but something about the help they were offered didn't quite hit them in the place they needed it. And my feeling around that is because it's not the peer thing, right? There's something about being held in positive regard by a cohort of men I feel I belong with that brings something else online for us guys. And that therapy doesn't necessarily do. Now, if you really want to crush it as man, I'll just say do them both, right? You get into men's group and you're going to get community and connection and support and accountability. And in the process of that, you're going to start to uncover some pretty deep wounding that we all carry. And just for whatever reason or habits in our life. And guess what? It's really great to then bring that to your therapist. I was in my group, I had this experience. He triggered me around this. I don't know what that is. Therapists can really slow you down and take you into that in a profound way. And I just. I get very excited because I see some real synergies starting to spring up around the ability to do both and how therapists are wise to it as well. I've been talking to a lot of female therapists who work with a lot of men. And they're like, these men come in and they have no friends and they don't know how to connect with anyone. And I can't really help them with that part, but we're doing great work. And it's like, boom, okay, great. Connect them with the men's group. This is kind of the missing piece for them. And I feel very hopeful about the lay of the land expanding to. To include all of these things.

Host: Okay. And I'm glad you brought that up, because if you. If you talk about it, it seems so petty, you know, but it's a huge barrier to entry for most men, especially men who are mired in the old masculine of, you know, you know, stoicism, any of that type of stuff, to talk to a female therapist. And I know some female. Female therapists that are fantastic therapists. But. But, you know, I know personally, I could never go see a female therapist. No, I'm older. I'm more, you know, dyed in the wool, probably, you know, a little, you know, old school. But the fact of the matter is that I. I do a lot of coaching myself and I know I would never try to attempt to coach a woman on how to be a woman. I'm not one. I don't have a clue what they're going through as women necessarily. It doesn't mean I can't, you know, coach women in certain circumstances, you know, that sort of. But in terms of this, what we're talking about, men need to be coached in how to be, you know, men and be better men and somehow better functioning men. How do you rationalize going to see someone who has never been a man, who has no clue what it's like to be a man, and maybe just read a book about what it's like to be a man, and that's what they're teaching. That's a hard one for me.

Jason Lange: Sure.

Host: So I'm going to give you the opportunity here to change my mind, brother.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I've. I've worked with both. I've had female therapists and I've had male therapists, and I. I wouldn't not do either one. And what I mean by that is it also depends on what you're going to work on. So, you know, if we just again, grossly simplify, two of the major wounds that all humans carry is their mother wound and their father wound. How I relate to the feminine, how I experience it inside of me, how I experience it outside of me, how I relate to the masculine inside of me and outside of me. Doesn't matter if you're born in a male body or female body. We have both of these energies inside of us. Some of us tend to be at home more in one than the other. So if I'm having to work a wound around the feminine, it's actually extremely valuable for me to go and work with a female therapist. Right. To work these parts of me that never felt loving presence or connection from my mom, and that as much men's work I've done, it's a different energy. It's just different. It's not better, it's not worse, but it is different. And the feeling of having the feminine hold space for me and my nervous system getting to feel safe in that, extremely healing for me at different points, did some very deep somatic work with a very wise older woman that so transformative for me. She wasn't working with me on how to be a better man. She Was working with me on how to feel better, better in my body. Right? Just some like, just to feel ease in my body, how to relax in my body, you know, some. Some simple things and how to feel more comfortable both with my own feminine and relating to the feminine in the world. Right. She's a woman, so she can help me connect better with women in a sense because she can share. Oh, this is the experience of what it's like to be in a woman's nervous system. And in a way that couldn't be triggered. You know, I had actually I've worked with two female therapists. One of my first ones, because I was so numb and dissociated when I was young and had such a neglectful relationship with my mom, I was terrified of connecting to women. It was so uncomfortable for me. And my first somatic therapist was a woman. And so we got to actually play with in the room, quite literally me moving my body closer to hers and farther to her, away from her, like, just literally, okay, I'm across the room now. Get closer. And I got to start to become intimate with my nervous system in the point at which just being close to a woman started to dysregulate me. Felt very uncomfortable for me. And then we were able to work with that in some pretty profound ways, which then, lo and behold, totally changed my dating life. But then, you know, I've also worked with male therapists who like, like you said, the gift of men's groups or being in a. A group of same male identified guys or a male therapist is they just get what it's like to be a man. And so they know the struggles of that. And that in itself is profoundly healing for us guys of just that sense of, oh, you just know what it's like, right? It's that look of like, yeah, I. Buddy, I know. And she's like, oh, great, someone knows. And you know, this is kind of more intense example, but I've seen it so many times in men's groups when a man gets to a place where he feels courageous enough to reveal not even necessarily strongly suicidal ideation, but just, man. Yeah. You know, there's been times in my life I just. Part of me just wanted to check out. It's just like, feels too much. And the healing I have seen in men when another man is just sitting right across from. Looks him in the eye and is like, I totally get it, man. I've been there. There's no need to fix it or freak out about it. Just like, I get it. It's just, boom. It's like medicine often for the masculine soul. Oh, I'm not. There's nothing wrong with me. I'm not broken. I'm not alone. I'm like, yeah, no, I just totally get it. I know that feeling. That's the great gift, you know, male therapy. And I would say men's groups can give. So again, it just depends what you're working. Right. What side of that wounding, which for a lot of us, we're carrying wounding around our mother or on our father. And there's different times and places to. To work on that. So I do think that, you know, and some people just based on their relationship, what I found is, yeah, you know, their father was totally abusive, and so they're way too terrified to go see a male therapist, but they'll sit with a woman, totally, because it doesn't trigger them in the same way or vice versa. And, you know, eventually you have to work those edges. But there's a lot of reasons, I would say, to sometimes see one or the other. But I do think part of what, like, what you've keyed in on and even what I was speaking to is it can't just be that for us men, we need to be held in connection and loving presence by the masculine as well at some point. And it's a. It's just different. Right. What that experience is like feels different for us. And if we've only worked with women our whole life, we're going to encourage you to, you know, cross that threshold and work with a male therapist or come to a men's group and start to heal that side of things as well.

Host: Yeah, I love your answer to that question. And, you know, one thing that I've learned about myself is I don't know everything. So I love, you know, getting a different perspective. And I really do appreciate you bringing that here today, the way you have. In the interest of time, you know, we kind of need to start wrapping things up. But I don't. I don't want to skip over anything that you've got to offer you. I mean, you are a professional advocate for men's groups, brother. I mean, you are very well read and educated on this. I'm incredibly impressed with, with everything you've brought here today. How do people reach you if you're someone they want to work with? You know, what do you offer them? You know, do a little self promotion for a minute.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Easiest way to keep up with me is to go to my website, Evolutionary Men. And so it's not dot com, but dot Men. And you can see, you know, my podcast, my writings, appearances on other podcasts, and all the programs I offer. And I do offer a couple different ways to get involved. Basically everything I do now other than private coaching, which honestly I don't even love nearly as much as men's groups. I'm just always encouraging guys to get into a group as well, is around different flavors of men's groups. So I have a men's group for men who want to get better at leading an intimate relationship, whether they're dating or already married, and really want to bring that part of themselves forward, really develop their inner masculine. I have men's groups for guys who want to do the deep emotional healing work that I call shadow work, which is the like, let's get to the right to the core of those wounds you've been carrying often since you were a kid that every day are impacting your behavior that you sometimes feel like you have no control over. So I have shadow work men's groups. I do live retreats for men. And then I do have just a, what I call the men's group experience, which is you're like, okay, I want to give this a whirl and it's a 12 week journey, or I give you the structure to go through with five other guys, a pretty profound and connecting experience. So you can walk out having tasted what it's like to be in a men's group and then you can either continue with that group or I also then give you kind of the pathway for starting a group. So not only am I very passionate about getting guys into groups, I'm extremely passionate about helping men lead them. Because as I think you're, I mean, talking to the choir here, we just can't do this fast enough. I mean, the need is so high in terms of this gap for men right now. And, you know, I literally hit a point, you know, maybe a year ago. I was like, I, I have no more time to lead groups and still be able to be present for my family sometimes. So I gotta start like training guys on how to do that in men's group experience is a gateway to that as well. And then like, you know, like you and I were chatting before this call. I don't even care if it's with me. I mean, if you're like, hey, I don't know where to get started. I want to find something local. You can just go to my website, there's a contact form there, shoot me a message. I'm pretty well Networked in terms of the men's work, men's group space now. And I will do my best to help you find something, whether it's local or online, that feels good to you. It's great to have you now as a resource as well. Because again, to, to me, obviously I have a business and I wanted to grow, but that's not why I do it. Right. I do it because to me, this is the biggest leverage point we have as a culture, society and planet right now is supporting men. You know, men's work is human work. The more men are thriving, the more everyone thrives. And our journey is just a little behind, right? If we just talk about, you know, the women's movement and feminism that all sprang online, you know, 50s, 60s and 70s, women were allowed to leave the home and enter the workforce and come out into the world. Men's work. You know, there was the first blip of it that really just didn't start till the 90s with Robert Bly and the mythopoetic movement. But it really is only in the last 10 years, it's, it's taken off and we, you know, not to make you feel bad about it, guys, but it's like, yeah, we are a little behind, right? I lead co ed stuff and couple stuff and, you know, you get to 40, 40 plus years old, you go to these kind of couples events, conscious relating events. You often have a room full of women who are like, where are all the conscious men? Like, I'm, I'm ready. I, I've done my therapy, I'm doing work, I'm ready for something real. And there's just not as many men who have, who are there yet for all the reasons we talked about. And the great news is, if you become one of those men, you're actually in a really good position. Rare, rare thing, a conscious man that's taking responsibility for his healing at this point. And so, yeah, I'm just super passionate. So I'll help you find something whether you want to work with me or not. Just reach out and help spread the word.

Host: Great, great. No, I love it. You deserved a little personal promotion after, you know, everything you put out there today. So I'm glad you did that. And you know that that would have been a great way to end, but I just want to make sure that we're getting everything out and we're getting all the good out of you today before we let you go. So let me just kind of end the way I like to end. And that is to give you The FL floor for a minute. You can go anywhere you want with this. But if there's anything we missed, if there's anything that we talked about you want to double down on, maybe a last piece of advice for men, you know, getting into groups, mindset, whatever comes to mind for you. I'm going to give you the floor for a couple minutes here and, you know, go for it. Whatever you think you want to close with. Brother.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'll just end with this idea of, you know, part of why I love a group and community and belonging is life gets a lot better. It doesn't necessarily get easier. And what I mean by that is, all of us human beings, all of us men, life is going to hit you with hard things, unexpected things, stressful things, physical, emotional, relational, career. And what a men's group is, is this mechanism to help you deal with that, to help you come back and find your center in those tough times, or as I say, sometimes to support you when you're down and then to hold you accountable when there's that thing, you know, you want to move forward. And again, the, the reframe. I think a lot of guys, I want you to realize is you don't have to just come to a group because you're broken. You come to a group because you want to be more. You want to do more, love more, relate more, be more present for your kids, for your wife, kick ass in your career, whatever that might be. A group can really support you in doing that. And we are wired for this as guys, you know, One last piece.

Host: Cool. Cool.

Jason Lange: Thing I learned recently was, you know, we've all heard of oxytocin, which is kind of the love hormone. It's for bonding. It's what makes us feel connected. Turns out in the evolutionary chain, oxytocin and another hormone called vasopressin have an ancestor that's the same. And in male bodies, we actually have more receptors for vasopressin than oxytocin. And guess what activates vasopressin? The feeling of being connected and bonding, doing and moving through problems and hard things together. And so for men, there is something extraordinarily bonding about moving through stress together, whether that's back in the day on the hunt or at war or building or whatever. You know, those kind of old school style things, or what I will point to now, now, which is the new frontier in a world that's mostly been explored and conquered, is doing the hard inner work. So, okay, I got my team of men behind me. I'm Gonna turn and face this dark part of myself, this unknown part of myself, this scary part of myself that I've never dealt with or felt before. That, for some of us, quite literally goes back generations. My dad was raised a certain way, so he raised me a certain way. His dad was raised a certain way, raised him a certain. And we're the ones that get to turn and face that. And when we do that together as men, the bonding I have seen created is unbelievable. I'm talking about the types of experiences guys can even have in a weekend. You walk away, and it's like we're brothers for life now. And it sticks, right? And it's that thing that I think so many men are craving of. Just, I got my team, I got my brothers, and the willingness to move through those challenges together is. Is something I would argue we all need at an evolutionary level as men. So don't hesitate. You know, your. Your life will get better is. Is what I'm going to argue. And you'll be able to handle more. And frankly, it's also just more fun. It's more fun to. To deal with life when you got good guys in your. In your court.

Host: Sounds good. It's a great close. I love that. Jason, thank you so much, man. A lot of really good information, folks. Jason Lange, men's embodiment coach, group facilitator, guide, and host of the podcast Evolutionary Men. Go check it out. Jason, thank you so much for everything you brought today and, you know, sharing what you have and for taking on my, you know, goofy questions like that when I didn't prepare you for him at all. Man, you handled it all like a champ. You knocked it out of the park. I learned something. I don't always get to say that at the end of a podcast, but I learned something today, and it was great having you on, brother. Thank you.

Jason Lange: Such a pleasure being here. Thank you for everything you do for men.

Host: Thank you, folks. That's another episode of the Power of Man podcast. And the reason we bring powerful men like this on with very powerful messages is because, you know, we are united in supporting you and taking back your power to become a better provider, a better protector, a better leader tomorrow than you are today, to become a better father, a better husband, a better man tomorrow than you are today. And the reason we want that for you is because you have value and you're worth it. And at some point, you just have to believe it. Until next time.