No More Mr. Nice Guy with Jason Lange | The Relationship Circle

Jason Lange: Host: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Relationship Circle podcast. I'm your host, Bec Thompson, and this podcast is all about showing you how to stop running in circles, ditch those dating games, and let your inner compass lead the way. Today we have on the podcast Jason Lange. Welcome, Jason.

Jason Lange: So excited to be here. Thank you for having me back.

Host: Yeah, you're so welcome. Let me introduce you. Jason is a men's embodiment coach, group facilitator, Certified, no more Mr. Nice Guy Coach and evolutionary guide. He helps men drop in and wake up to deeper clarity in their life's purpose and relationships. He believes that every man should be in a men's group for growth and support and opportunities they provide. I 100% agree. So excited to have you here. I actually was thinking as I was reading out your bio before, I wonder if people know what an embodiment coach is. So I would love for you to explain what that means to the audience.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's, you know, maybe a fancy term for a simple thing which is just the practice of actually coming into the present moment and getting connected to our bodies. Right. Embodiment. Getting into our bodies in a sense, which in the work I do, I consider. Yeah. That our physical sensations, our physicality and to a large extent our emotionality, that a lot of emotions. Right. They actually start as sensations in our body that we can often trace. And you know, while this is the case for all humans these days because of just tech and culture and all the things that are kind of constantly driving us out of the moment, I think it's particularly a challenge for a lot of men who probably more than ever tend to have a lot of mental energy, really analyze things, think things through a lot and spend a lot of time literally in their heads, which though they. Though not everyone knows the language for it. Most women I talk to can can of corroborate. Like, yeah, I can feel a man when, like when he's ruminating. When he's up here, he's not actually with me in the moment. So, you know, coaching that is really guiding men back into their bodies through practices and facilitation, in a sense.

Host: Yeah, yeah. It's so interesting yet because a lot of the feedback I get from women is the. The same but them saying that they're wanting someone who's present with them. Right. So that's what you're teaching them to do.

Jason Lange: So you can't be present in my book unless you're embodied.

Host: Yeah, right. Absolutely.

Jason Lange: Your body only ever lives right here now. Yeah, it's right here, now, right in our thoughts. We can ruminate about the past, worry about the future, but our body's right here and right now. So when we're in our bodies connecting to it, we tend to be a lot more present, a lot more grounded, a lot more still in some sense. And that can be extremely appealing to be around whether you're a man or a woman. We can feel it right. When we're around someone who's, wow, this person's really here with me.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: It actually has an impact on our nervous system when someone else is very present. In some ways it evokes us to be very present.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And that's. Turns out that's often a very attractive, fun place to be with someone.

Host: Yeah. So what are some of the other benefits? Especially selling it like it's some sort of programming. But what are some of the other benefits of like doing it for men? Like I. Why would they. Why would they do it for themselves?

Jason Lange: Taking control of your nervous system, in a sense. Sense. So a lot of men, we become reactionary. You know, something happens and then we have a strong feeling or a reaction. And we don't always skillfully act, to say the least. Or sometimes for a lot of men, it's. It's not even action, it is rumination. They're just stuck overthinking something, stressing out about something, and they don't know how to get out of it. So embodiment is one path out of those. Along with what I've found really in my own life and most of the men I've worked with is it really increases our capacity for leadership so to make decisions and lead in our lives. And they have a lot of research now, Right. That shows wildly enough, you probably know about the vagal nerve. Right. It's the big nerve that goes down. Our body kind of has all these nerve bundles in it. And what's wild is they've done research and you know, if we consider that thing a highway, 80%, 80% of the traffic goes from the body to the brain. Only about 20% of that traffic is brain to body. What that often translates to is when we're embodied, we're actually receiving so much more information from the moment from our environment, from our partners, which we can then use to make better informed decisions. So, you know, a lot of people have probably had this experience of like, yeah, I had, I don't know, my gut just told me to X. And it's both a kind of esoteric thing, the gut, and it's real yeah, like they actually have data that shows, you know, people's bodies respond and have this kind of knowing. And to me that's that collecting of all that information from our, our body. Its as one big tuning fork. So it, it has, you know, so many pros and you know, to tie it back to one of our subjects too. Guys tend to have better sex and be better lovers, which most men I know want to have.

Host: That's a good motivator.

Jason Lange: Yeah, right. And it comes from being in the body.

Host: Yeah, right.

Jason Lange: Being in the moment, being. And again, the beauty of that is when we're embodied, when we're present in ourselves, it's much easier to attune to our partner. You know, in this case I'm speaking about our intimate partner. But as we're making love or as we're sitting down, like we can really be with them and feel them in what information they're giving back to us. Which same thing we then use to help us navigate, you know, what's going to unfold here, what would open my partner or create the most connection right now. So embodiment is a simple but incredibly powerful tool that unfortunately, just the way society is these days, we have to actually consciously do it. Particularly for a lot of men. We have to like say, I am going to get into my body multiple times a week through practices, through groups, through working out. You know, there's a lot of strategies, but you just actually got to do it. There's no faking embodiment or present. Right. You're either doing it or you're not. And just because you did it yesterday doesn't mean you're there today.

Host: Yeah, totally. You can get taken out easily.

Jason Lange: Hey, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Host: Yeah. I love what you said about it giving you all the information you need. Because quite often I say to women when they're dating, because they're quite often in their heads with anxiety around, like, what is he thinking? Does he like me? What should I say next? And when you're not in your body, you're. You're not getting the information that you need. And you'll have all the information you need. Like I think that this fear around, I'm not going have it if I don't think about it. Where will I get this information from? But if you're just in your body, it drops in. You're going to get the information automatically. That's the only way I know how to do good coaching. Everyone goes, how do you coach? I got just be present. It's like, if I'm present with you, then I'm going to know what's happening because there's so much more information than just the words that are coming out of someone's mouth. Right?

Jason Lange: Yeah, exactly. That's perfect example.

Host: Yeah. I also love. Want to jump on this thread as well, because I don't want it. Don't want that to leave my head when you said about lead leadership, because I feel like this is an area where a lot of my clients and most of my clients are women struggle with in regards to getting men to lead particularly. Well, not, not just early on in dating, but getting them to lead early on in dating and throughout the relationship. And I feel like there's a gap there, maybe with what women are wanting and what men are providing, but also feel that women are taking up the space of the leading because there's control there and they feel safer and they haven't had it in the past. So I suppose I just want all of your knowledge and tips around like, how do women one, allow men to lead and. And get the best out of them in dating or. Or lead. Lead them to lead. I don't know how they get them to lead.

Jason Lange: No, totally. It's a great question and it's one I think we're figuring out culturally right now because, you know, to a positive, we've liberated a lot of the old stereotypes in relationship of the man always has to X and the woman always has to Y. And that's great, that's good. And it still leaves a lot of women who want their man to lead. Right, right. Like particularly women who are spending a lot of the day in their leadership capacities themselves.

Host: Exactly.

Jason Lange: They're like, the last thing I want to do at the end of the day is make more plans for us and take the reins. I want you to do that. Right. That's the gift, you know, you can give me in a sense. And so for women, you know, this man, this is hard. So I'm just going to preface this. This is like an extremely generous thing. But if you really care about a man and you're like, yeah, you know, I care about him. I want this to work. And here's what I need. You know, I need some leadership is two primary things. One, you have to be willing to let him lead poorly. Right. So if you ask him to lead something and pretty quickly you're like, oh, that's going to be a disaster if we do that. To that. To that. Right. Like, you know, just because you're a wise woman, you kind of got to let him do it his way and stumble through it. Right. And learn, in a sense, and find his footing and get the feedback and that kind of thing without taking the reins too early. And that's a hard thing to do. So I just want to acknowledge that. But it's a very generous thing to do.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Because some men I have worked with, certainly their partners say that, and then they try to lead something, and their partners hop right in with altering the plan or criticizing or something, and then once again, they're kind of back in that totally same situation.

Host: Can I give a really quick practical example of from my life? Because this is absolutely me. I told my husband I wanted him to cook more. Like, I'm like, I don't want to cook every night. You know, like, we need to share this out. However, when he started cooking, I was the little hoverer in the background telling him how to cook. And that was so frustrating. And I'm just glad we have good communication because he was able to say to me, hey, if you're going to be in here while I'm cooking, what is the point? You know? So I actually literally had to lock myself in my office to be like, okay, it's okay if the steak is burnt, it's okay. Does it taste good? It's going to be fine to get through that for him to be able to do it and lead it, because otherwise it was. I was micromanaging the leading, which is wild.

Jason Lange: It's. That's a. That's a perfect example. And, you know, we can even think of it in, like, partner dance. You know, there's a lead and a follow. And if whoever's leading, whether it's a man or woman, is doing it poorly, but you start to step in as the lead, it does not work.

Host: Yeah, right.

Jason Lange: If you try to lead from behind, you actually just really have to as a follow. Follow even when it's not working, even when it's bad. And then, you know, that's how us men in particular, I think, lead, learn to lead. And then related to that is kind of the energetics underneath this right of lead and follow, we might say, are the energy of leading is often directive. So, right. It's giving direction. Right. It's making it a choice and bringing direction to the moment. Or sometimes it's literally directing. Hey, could you come sit over here? Hey, could you grab me that? You know, whatever that might be. That's often the energy of leadership. Right. And that's what many women spend their whole days doing with. If not at work, they're with their families, with their kids, and, yeah, sometimes their husbands. Right. They're just constantly directing. And I know a lot of women who are just burnt out on that. They're just like, all I do all day long. And so the kind of polarity of that, the follow of that is what we call responsiveness. So responsiveness means I just respond. So I reveal the impact in how I'm feeling, but I do not direct. So this is an art, and it's something that has to be practiced. And I would say kind of has to be discussed as a couple. Like, hey, are we willing to play in this way? So directive would be. Directive and responsive would be. So, you know, I don't know, your husband's leading something, Right. And rather than jumping in and giving, you know, direction or feedback, you actually just reveal how it feels in your body. Like sometimes it's like that vocal or like, you know, it's responding, so it's expressing the feeling you're currently experiencing, which gives him information, then to redirect, try something else. But it's not telling him how to do it, if that makes sense.

Host: Yes, absolutely. He's still got the control of it, you know?

Jason Lange: Yeah. You know, maybe another way to think about this, I don't know if you've ever played the game, you know, growing up, there's like hot and cold. As you're getting closer to something, you're like, hot, hot, hot, warmer. Warmer. Hot, hot, hot, hot, cold, cold, colder. That would be an example of responsive in a sense. Like, I'm not telling you where it is. I'm just sharing, you know, if I was hot or cold, like, yeah, that's warming me up. Warming me up. Hot, hot, cold. No, cold. And that's a powerful thing. And it's something that couples kind of have to play at, you know, and practice at. And again, takes a lot of generosity, often on a. On a. On a woman's part. But really, anytime there's a lead and follow, you know, sometimes it's. You know, many men I work with, not all of them, but some of them, you know, their wives have been handling the finances and they're like, I don't want to handle the finances. And he has a learning curve, right. To do it, he's kind of got to fail a little bit. But if she jumps in every time, he doesn't get to learn. So there's that, okay, I gotta, like, let him lead poorly in a sense, so he can experience it. And it. Yeah, it just. It takes a real practice. A Real generosity. But it is something you can cultivate as a couple in particular. And there's. There's so many great ways to work about that. Like, one of my favorite things one of my teachers told me once was she was. She was actually quite good at driving and navigating. Way better than her husband. He just kind of wasn't good at it. Right. So oftentimes. But she would want him to drive. So they get in the car and it'd be this whole stressful thing. Then she'd be like, no, you need to go this way. You need to take a left, whatever. And they would leave those car rides. Right. Frustrated with each other because he's like, you wanted me to drive, but then you're backseat driving and da, da, da. And, you know, it sounds so simple. But the hack they had was they would get into the car, he would turn to her, and he would say, tell me where to go. So he would take this meta, meta perspective of I'm directing you to give me information about navigation. And it's like a little hack, but it still has that energy then. Because then she's like, ooh, okay, right? There's. There's like, there's some of that fun there in it. And he's giving her permission in acknowledging, but still kind of driving it, in a sense. So there's countless ways we can. We can play with that. And you know, the. The other thing on the responsive thing, and this is. This is like maybe more Jedi level, but can be fun, is if a man's not leading just. Then don't do anything. If it's like he left the car running and you're sitting outside of it and you're like, inclinations. I got to turn it off. It's just sit there, like, literally do nothing. And he will have to step into action. He will have to take some kind of initiative at some point. So sometimes that can be really hard too. Of, okay, well. Well, I'm just going to wait here then. Until he notices.

Host: Yeah. And you have to be really patient. Hey. Because I.

Jason Lange: You have to be so patient.

Host: And just thinking in that moment, you'd be like, okay, how long's it going to take? You know, how long do I give this?

Jason Lange: Exactly. Yeah, no, totally. It's so again, it's. It takes a certain generosity and we're not always up for that, in a sense. And just to know that, you know, for a lot of men, it's just extremely vulnerable to lead. They like a lot of us sometimes we won't lead because we so badly want to do a good job, we're afraid of messing up or failing, so we don't do it at all. It's like that. And I'm not going to do anything.

Host: Totally.

Jason Lange: But, you know, one of the reasons, like I. I love partner dance as a metaphor and as experience for people is when you do both sides, you realize, oh, one is not easier than the other. Right. Leading. Being the lead in a partner dance takes an incredible amount of energy and awareness and presence, but so does following. Like, really surrendering to someone and just giving yourself over takes just as much badassery, in my opinion. And, you know, having those experiences, I think can also create a lot of compassion for partners and couples. When, yeah, maybe sometimes you alternate or consciously choose, like, hey, Friday, you know, I would just love for you to take the reins. You know, just pick me up at 8. Whatever the plan is, I'm with you. And you can kind of give him a little nugget like that. And then a guy will often, you know, jump into it. But some of us need to be told and some of us just need training, which is why, you know, I'm trying to work with as many men.

Host: Get out here, you know.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Despite, you know, despite some of the pushback and things that are going on in culture right now, a lot of women, it's not that they want their man to lead, and maybe you can share this too, like all the time, but they want to know he at least has the capacity and can do it enough that they can surrender into that when the moment is right.

Host: Yeah, absolutely. I have a client that I chatted to last week, this week, I don't know, sometime, and she's just gone on a third date with a guy. And the way that he led that made her feel really safe. And this was. Sounds so simple, was they went to a bar first, and after they left the bar, he'd organized the restaurant they were going to. So first of all, just organizing those two places. But then she noticed that as they were walking to the restaurant, he was holding her hand and walking just a little step in front of her, which meant for her that he had this and he was leading the way. And she just felt so she could surrender into that. She felt safe. She felt like he's got this, like everything just felt taken care of. And I just love how where she was to notice this half step in front that he was to her. Yeah. She just found that really beautiful. Yeah.

Jason Lange: And it's impactful.

Host: Yeah, right.

Jason Lange: That's how Impactful. It can be in why I think once men have practiced a little bit and see that it really can impact their partner or whoever they're with. It's like a. It's a. It's a gift in a sense.

Host: Yes.

Jason Lange: Right. And you know, that gift will be returned in all kinds of ways through energy, connection, you know, all passion. But that, like, it really, you know, can change someone's nervous system when they feel held and guided and directed. Like, right when. When a man's driving, so to speak, and kind of just, hey, here's the plan. Here's where we're going and I'm checking in with you. It's not my way or the highway, right? It's, hey, here's. Here's where we're going to go. Are you okay? Here's where we're going to go. Okay. It's great. You know, I often use the metaphor or visual for a lot of guys I work with of just riding on a motorcycle. Right. Again, it doesn't really have to do with male or female, but just like the idea of lead and follow, someone's got to be on the bike, paying attention, navigating. We're going left here. We're going here. I'm tracking that. We're going speed. The person riding on the back just gets to hold on and relax and enjoy. Right. Really enjoy. And that can be such a fun, energetic. When it's working really well, right. It's like, it's so cool because you can feel, wow, me doing this is really lighting this person up and allowing them to relax in a way that's often quite nourishing for men. Once it's. Once that cycle is happening, I just.

Host: Thought then it would be then very important, say if the women as a woman is on the back, for her to one trust and also to know how to receive. Like, I feel like this is such a huge thing I'm doing with women at the moment. It's like, how do you receive, like, how do you receive a compliment? How do you receive. Someone buys you a coffee, like, just even the simple things. And how does that feel in your body? Like, do you feel like you have to automatically give a compliment back or be like, oh, no, just this little thing I'm wearing, You know, like, it's just women quite often go, here's the compliment. They back it. Like, you can have it back. I don't want it. And then that person doesn't even give the opportunity to give the compliment. The same sort of thing.

Jason Lange: Yeah, that's a big thing that. Particularly for guys I work with that are sometimes in relationships. Right. They come and they start leading, and then, yeah, it turns out both partners have some work to do because then their spouse. Right. Sometimes hits their limit of trust and receiving, and then they have little work to do. And so both partners often have to grow, you know, in tandem, because it does take trust. And for, you know, many women. My wife works with women, so I hear a lot of these stories. You know, there's a reason they don't trust, and part of why they don't trust is because sometimes they've given the keys over to someone and they left them hanging. They dropped the ball. And I think that that's another thing. I work with a lot of men around. You got to understand that it's a process. It's not like you just do it once and someone's like, trusting you for life. A lot of women have had experiences of a man not being present, disappearing, going away, forgetting, like, all these different. Different things. And again, so it's a very generous thing to trust and allow him to lead. Like, I think it's very sacred, in a sense, and really try to kind of get that into my guys. Like, you know, the. What they're doing is just as hard as what you're. Yeah, it's just different. It's just the different side of the coin.

Host: Yeah. Because they also have to learn to trust themselves, I think, because so often when I get to him, where they've got to that point where they're like, someone's let me down. And we look back and we're like, oh, okay, there were the signs there, but you just ignored them. So, like, how do you learn how to trust your own judgment again and trust your own gut and you be present and get that information and trust that information?

Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely.

Host: I know you touched on this earlier, but I want to tease it out a little bit. If women are very early on in dating and they are wanting a man to lead or to know that he has the capacity to lead, how can. If that's not happening, like, do they just walk away from that? Or if you know, everything else is there but that, like, is there a way to tease that out of someone? I just want to quickly pause the episode here to tell you about my upcoming Free Love Unlocked masterclass. Maybe the reason you haven't found love is because you feel you aren't worthy of love you deserve. And I'm here to tell you that you are. And I want to give you the steps on how you can start loving yourself first to attract that worthy love into your life. In the masterclass, I cover three steps straight away which are uncovering past patterns, understanding emotional needs, and learning how to communicate and set boundaries to amplify your self worth. Details can be found in the show notes and I cannot wait to see you there.

Jason Lange: Yeah, you can. You know, before you walk away, I would say, and again, this starts to skirt the line of being directive and whatnot, but you could reveal what would feel really good to you. Hey, so I know, you know, we said we'd get together on Friday and you know, it would feel really good to me. Feel really great for me if you just told me when and where I should show up and do I need a sweater or not?

Host: Right, right.

Jason Lange: So you just kind of reveal the desire in a sense, and he'll either step into that or he won't.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And you'll get your information really fast. Of like, okay. But a lot of guys, you know, initially we need handkerchiefs, like drop the handkerchief, give us a clue. Or, you know, for some men it's just permission too. Because a lot of guys I work with in particular, the kind of more nice guys, don't want to be the domineering macho jerk, right? That's just taking control and directing everything. And so they have this story that they shouldn't do that at all. And that's where sometimes just a little bit of revealing, it's like, you know, I actually really like it and I would appreciate it, you know, if you want to take the reins on our next get together. That would feel great to me. And you know, one of these times I'll be happy to do the same. Right. To say that, you know, it could reverse at some point. Doesn't have to be him leading all the time, but you kind of got to know, right? You want to know early on, does he have the capacity, can he do this or not? And you want to find that out. I would say earlier than later.

Host: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's really important because it's exactly the same as asking for any other need or setting any boundary early on. This stuff is so important to do really early on because then you get answers, right? You get the information that you need to make a decision to move forward. It doesn't mean that, you know, I think people get so scared of like, if I ask for what I need or if I put that boundary in place, they're going to reject me. Well, if they reject you for that, then it's not going to work, is it? Like. And then, you know, by date three, you don't need to know. Six months down the track.

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's the. I've seen this too. It's. It's, you know, it's a pretty terrible dating strategy that a lot of people default to. Of. Okay, met this person. I like them. I want them to like me. So I'm going to withhold some of my authenticity in different ways until I know they like me and maybe we're committed in some kind of way. And then I can start to share what I'm actually feeling or revealing. And sometimes that can take three, six months, a year. Sometimes that can be years into a marriage.

Host: Totally.

Jason Lange: And then finally the truth comes out and it's like, whoa, we're actually not compatible at all. Right. And then there's all that time you invested. You know, in a sense that that kind of went to waste versus what you're speaking to is, hey, what if we lead with our vulnerability and authenticity early on? You know, in a sense, what you're going to get to is you're going to burn through potential dating partners much faster. You're going to get to know, in a sense, faster. But then the people who are aligned are going to be way more aligned and actually aligned with you, which is totally different than that kind of other strategy, which, you know, it's. I get why people do it. Right. But it almost never works out long term.

Host: Yeah. It's interesting. I had a client, a few clients recently say to me when I said, you know, has anyone ever known the real you? And they're like, no. And I'm like, wow, like, that. That hurts me that they've never been able to share who they are to people or reveal because of that fear of. Yeah. Being liked or accepted or loved for who they are.

Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely.

Host: Yeah. I want to know about no more Mr. Nice Guy. Like, what does that mean? What do you. How are you working with.

Jason Lange: In addition to the, you know, 70s rock song, it was popularized by one of my mentors, the author, Dr. Robert Glover. He wrote it, I think, almost 20 years ago now, just based on. He was a marriage and family therapist, and based on experiences he was having and running men's groups and meeting men, seeing a certain pattern of a type of man that was increasingly showing up. And so the nice guy is kind of a collection of behaviors that, as I say, is. It's good in a sense, in that it was a reaction to kind of the more typical male Energy that the world knew for a very long time. Kind of just my way, the highway, take what I want, dominate, power over women. Like all of these different things being unconscious in a sense. And you know, just taking is a certain type of man takes from the environment, takes from women, takes resources from others. And a lot of men, particularly in the last, you know, 40 and 50 years, were raised in environments where we saw the impact of those men on the world, on societies, on women, on themselves. Maybe they had a volatile father or man in their life. And so what happens is those men start to prioritize safety and connection in the needs of others. Right? So as long as you're okay, I'm okay. I don't ever want to make you feel uncomfortable. I never want to make you feel uncomfortable. So I'm not going to take much action or do many things or ask for many things because that might make you uncomfortable, right? So it's, it's like in a good way, it's this heart based sensitivity. It's really caring about safety. But it often gets guys into pretty big trouble, right? Because nice guys often have no capacity to set boundaries, to stand up for themselves, to protect those they care about, to say no to things that are harmful for them. They often end up trying to get what they want in very indirect ways. So Dr. Glover calls this the COVID contract, which is like, actually I'm running a contract with you, but I never told you about it. So instead, you know, in the classic kind of nice guy frame here is I'm going to be so nice to you, I'm going to buy all the dinners, be super nice to you so that maybe you'll have intercourse with me, right? Like there's this kind of sense if I'm just nice enough to her, she'll eventually something back to me. Right? And that's just one kind of, you know, stereotypical example. But it's, it has like a passive kind of aggressive nature to it of rather than asking you directly for it, which would be uncomfortable because you could say no or reject me, or I could make you feel uncomfortable, I'm going to try to get it by doing all these other things. And that's often very uncomfortable for people to experience and often similarly then builds a lot of resentment in nice guys, right? I'm doing all this stuff for so and so, but I'm not getting anything back. Well, have you ever asked for anything back? No. Right. It's like sometimes it's that simple and it's like, well then, you know, you can't really be angry. And so the. The positive of it, I would say, is nice guys tend to be deeply attuned. They have more access to their emotional body, their feeling sense, don't mind going into feelings with other people, but they've also just lost connection with some of their power and often their sexuality, right? Many, many nice guys I know and work with have a lot of shame around their sexual desire, right? That. Well, just the fact that I'm attracted to a woman, like, that's bad. That's dirty. Women don't want that, right? Is the story a lot of these guys have absorbed. So what they do instead, right, is they try to disconnect or hide their attraction because they don't want to seem like a creepy guy who's just out for sex. But then what happens is they go out on these dates, and at the end, a woman's like, you're really nice, and I'm just not feeling it with you. You know, I'd be happy to be your friend, but, you know, I'm just. I'm not. I don't feel you in that way. Right? Because they're so disconnected from their desire, their attraction, right? And whether you're a man or woman, you know, in the end, most human beings I know want to know that their partner is attracted to them, right? They're like, I want. No, I want you to be attracted to me. But a lot of nice guys have kind of internalized this story that. That's not true. That, you know, all of a man's sexuality is. He's just a pig and da, da, da, da. And so I do a lot of work with guys to start to reformat that. It's not. It's not our attraction or desire that is bad or wrong. It's what we do with it, right? It's literally. It's just what we do with it. As long as we're forward, honest, consensual, attuned, it's a great thing. It's a great thing to have access to that. So all of those things kind of constellate to this idea of, you know, the nice guy. The guy who's just, you know, do doing all he can to be a nice and friendly person in life, but just isn't really getting what he wants and is often not the person that a lot of people think of when they're like, oh, yeah, so. And so is someone I'd like to date or that's the guy I'd go to in an emergency. Like, yeah, I Want him on my team in a battle or something like that. Just like, oh, yeah, he's a really nice guy. Right. You can just feel the energy of kind of the nice guy. Those guys tend to get in the friend zone, like that kind of thing a lot. They're often really sweet, really genuine men. And, you know, another thing I'll share from some of my clients I've noticed is they're often men that are rock stars in relationship, but they're just terrible at dating. They can't get to that level. But once they get there, they're super attuned, they really care about their partners, they're super thoughtful, they're great people to be in relationship with. It just, it tends to kind of give them struggles in terms of getting there, like getting that partner attracted, getting to know them at a deep level, creating that connection and trust and presence in a sense. So, you know, I would say probably 3/4 of the men I work with these days would kind of categorize themselves as nice guys. And the author of the book, Dr. Glover, tells me that, yeah, it's, it's one of those rare books that sells more copies every year than it did the previous year. So it just keeps snowballing as men discover it and have these light bulb moments of, oh, no wonder why my life's been so hard. I have all of these tendencies and traits that really are about just trying to please and appease everyone around me. And I never stop to actually think about myself.

Host: So interesting. It's like almost identical to the women I work with. But I suppose we would categorize that as people pleasing.

Jason Lange: Yes, it is. It's people pleasing. It can be codependency, it can be the good girl. You know, there's these archetypes are out there in lots of different ways and.

Host: I can see that these men would have got like, I wonder when you said more books are selling, I thought, I bet you they're getting a lot of feedback from women saying, you're so nice. Like, you know, I hope you find the person you're looking for. Or, yeah, can we be friends? Like, I have to stop a lot of my clients going, we're not collecting friends. Please stop telling this men you're going to be their friends because, you know, you have 50 friends that you're never going to see again and they want to date you and you don't want anything to do with them. Yeah, interesting. Okay. It's really good, really good work. It feels like it's there, like, you know, we swung one end to this, like, power and control and dominating and aggression to, like, being too nice. And now how do we come back to the middle of that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, that's precisely. You know, what I try to do in, like, my. The work I do is under the umbrella of evolutionary men. And the idea is we want to take the best of what was and integrate it in. And this is where I'm actually a little more positive in some sense than on nice guys, than some people, because I'm like, well, nice guy is actually a huge evolution.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Over the kind of the. The macho caveman, my way or the highway that really dominated the world for a long time. So it's a good thing more men are there. But it's definitely not sufficient in terms of what a man actually needs to be present and lead in a relationship and get the things he really wants in life. So it's about bringing it all online. Right. We want to keep that open, attuned, sensitive heart. And, you know, not to be too crass, but as I talk to my men, like, be in touch with our balls, like, actually have. Feel that fire, that power, that desire that I'm going towards. This. This is what I want. This is what I want to create, or just that energy of. No, that's not. Okay. This is what needs to happen right now. You know, whatever that is. When we can kind of match those two together, it's pretty unstoppable. And, you know, it's. It's amazing when. When I see a man come alive in those ways, it's like, yes, more of that, please. And women tend to love it, too.

Host: Yeah. Yeah, totally.

Jason Lange: It's.

Host: I feel I don't have any scientific evidence of this, and maybe it's been written, but anecdotally, I feel like this happens a lot with change. Like, a lot of the women I see have been in toxic relationships. They'll be like, you know, I didn't have any boundaries here. So they swing all the way over this end that they're walls and they're not letting anyone in. And, like, no one's getting past this. And then again, it's like, how do we get to the middle of that? Like, I want you to be able to protect yourself, and I want you to be able to let people in. So, like, what's the happy medium with that? So it feels like that is a lot of change and growth, is that we have this one experience, whether as a larger society or as an individual, and then swing right the other way, and then Learn how to come back to what is in the middle.

Jason Lange: Exactly.

Host: Yeah. That's good. We can have hope for society.

Jason Lange: Totally. Yeah. It's happening.

Host: So good. Anything else? Any other wisdom you want to share that you haven't yet that you want listeners to know or.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say, you know, this is maybe towards women who, you know, are seeing a man or in a relationship with a man. You know, one thing I often you, you probably do this too. But I see true is like one of the quickest ways you can really get to know a man is who is he friends with? Like, who are the men that surround him and in his life? And if a man doesn't have any close friends or associates or people he trusts, you know, that's kind of a red flag to me. It's like there's some, there could be some problems there, some tensions there. Again, for like a lot of nice guys who don't necessarily trust the masculine in a sense, they're more comfortable around women for all kinds of reasons. They won't have those connections. So their romantic partner becomes their everything. Right. That partner's got to process emotions with them, help co regulate them. You know, they just, they do everything together, which can, if you're not careful, you know, create a little bit of that codependency. And so, you know, if there is a man and you care about him like that, it's, you know, again, it's got to be kind of a nuanced thing, but it's, you know, letting him know, like, hey, have you ever considered, you know, joining a group or getting some support from some other men? Because like, I love you and I'm not a man. I don't know how to, you know, I don't know what your experience is like other men do, right. And so you can kind of nudge a man to, you know, in, in a friendly way, you know, maybe creating a little more connection or time with other men or getting some support or guidance. Because what I've seen is when a man has that, he's actually a lot more free and bold and fun and playful in his relationship.

Host: I was all ready to wrap up and then you reminded me of something I would love to ask, which is how do like that? Because that is kind of one sign around, like someone who is like working on themselves or healthy, embodied. Like, what are other things that women can look for in partners to know that I suppose they're with someone who is willing to do the work or willing to look at their own behavior or like I Don't want to use the word healthy, but that's what I'm going to use because I have nothing else in my head. Because I think, you know, particularly a lot of the women I work with, they have never had that and they don't really know what a healthy relationship is and so don't even know what to look for. So I'm just wondering if there's some like, green flags or things that they can look out for that would help them.

Jason Lange: Yeah, two things are coming to mind. One's kind of more of a strat strategic thing and it's where are you meeting them in? And just what I mean by that is so, you know, online you have maybe some different ways of kind of decoding this, but in the world, like, and I speak to guys about this all the time that I'm like, if you're going out trying to meet a woman at a bar, there's only a certain kind of woman that's going to be out at a bar on a Tuesday night or a Saturday night. That's kind of where her energy is, right? That's what she's enjoying, that's what she's prioritizing in life. That woman, or in this case, man, is going to be very different than someone who's at a yoga class or a meditation class or doing a cacao ceremony or at a sound bath or at an authentic relating workshop. Right. That alone is going to kind of filter to some extent what that person is interested. Oh, they're clearly interested in like growth and change and healing or, you know, whatever things might light you up. So for one, it's, yeah, where, you know, you can change, where you try to meet people in a sense. And this is what I work with a lot of my guys on, where it's like, well, you start doing the growth and change work. The positive thing about that is you literally start getting your body into spaces where other people are doing that. And lo and behold, you meet potential romantic partners who are on that same journey as you who are interested in that same thing. Right. And then the other thing I would say, I don't know, this kind of came up a little bit more as a joke, but you could totally ask, is it like, you know, you could bring a little playfulness and level levity. I would say maybe on an early date of like, yeah, how do you end up dating your parents? You know, like, is someone. Oh, like. And what I mean by that is if someone has the self awareness to know that almost inevitably in any relationship, you're going to play out your attachment wounding from your family of origin. And if you don't do any growth and healing work, that's going to happen over and over and over and over again. And you're going to have the same cycle over and over. And so it's kind of just getting into playful ways to talk about that. You know, what have you learned from previous relationships? Or, you know, it might be like, how have you changed the most in the last five years? Right. If, if someone doesn't have an answer or they just kind of talk about things. Oh, you know, I got a house and I did this thing and I did this thing that kind of tells you a lot about their capacity for self awareness in a sense versus like, oh, no, I changed because, whoa. I, you know, discovered some really gnarly patterns in my work life. And you know, what their, what the subject of their attention is, is deeper, right? It's, it's more about growth and transformation and change. So I don't know if that really answered it.

Host: No, no, it totally does, totally does. And it also made me think of like, things to stay away from in terms of like, if they're talking bad about their ex or their.

Jason Lange: Yeah, those things, I think matter, you know, I, I, I do think, because it's like, yeah, you know, in that situation, you're just one step away from being that.

Host: Yeah, absolutely.

Jason Lange: You know, we're like, like, oh, this is how you talk about exes.

Host: Yeah, absolutely.

Jason Lange: Wow. You know, I had a really challenging relationship. We learned so much. It was really painful. And, you know, I'm grateful I spent that time with, yeah, like that's, that's a whole different ball game of a human being. Right? Where you're like, okay, cool, let's play.

Host: Yeah. Yeah. And you had accountability in that, right. As opposed to it all being the other person's fault and.

Jason Lange: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's probably another clue too, is how much responsibility, you know, like, I don't know really know how you'd ask this, but kind of what you can start to sniff out is like, yeah, how much responsibility is a man willing to take for the life he's created? You know, if it's just complaining about things, I'd run.

Host: I think you hear that in the language people use though, right? Like I always say to people, watch how he interacts with like the wait staff at a restaurant or a cleaner or, you know, like, because how someone treats, you know, a around, if they're treating someone worse than they're treating you, then that mask is going to fall off. You know, they're just putting that on for you then. Yeah, yeah.

Jason Lange: And you know, and I'd say also just look out for, like, how does he respond when things don't.

Host: I love conflict. When someone, whenever I get to a couple and they get into their first conflict, I'm like, this is amazing. This is the first step.

Jason Lange: Totally. Or if he plans a date and doesn't go right, they lost the tickets or something, does he get all tight and gripped and defensive and. And angry? Or does he say, oh, my God, I'm so embarrassed right now. I left the tickets at home. I feel so stupid. You're not going to like me and why don't we go get some ice cream? Right. Like, you know, can he roll with the bunches in a sense and not take it all too seriously? I think it's a huge thing to.

Host: Look for in a man. Totally.

Jason Lange: Many, many men are just very serious. We just get grumpy and serious and gripped and. And about things. And a man who has a little bit of levity, I think is a. Something special for sure.

Host: Yes. So good. I could chat to you all day, but anyway, we have to wrap up. How can everyone find you and work with you and be in your orbit?

Jason Lange: Absolutely. You can check out all of my [email protected]. so it's.men, not dot com. And I have a podcast on there for guys. Lots of articles, programs. I've recently found that, yeah, women are listening to my podcast, which is kind of wild to me, but I guess they just like hearing what's going on for men. So as you know, it's a point portal into some of the nice guy work and things I've been talking about as well, if, if you're interested or you know, a man who just might need a little guidance. Right. Who's been trying to do it all alone and just needs a little help. We all do. And I think, you know, it's really hard for a lot of guys to ask for help or admit they need help, but, man, it gets so much easier once they do. Yeah.

Host: Now if we could just clone you and bring you out across the world, that would be great. So if anyone out there knows those skills, please reach out to either of us. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been such a pleasure.

Jason Lange: Absolutely. Good to be here with you. Thank you.

Host: Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you got value from this, please don't hesitate to share with a friend so they can get value from this, too. And don't forget to hit follow so you don't miss an episode. It's also how I keep this podcast alive.

Jason Lange: Audience exclusive.