Men’s Healing & Growth: Why the Old Ways No Longer Work w/ Jason Lange | Shadow Corner

Host: Sam, Foreign. Shadow corner fam. It's your friendly neighborhood life coach, Cyan. Yesterday, I know we dived into the lovely, lovely day of sleep with our friend Tom, Tim Thomas and hi from down under. You either sleep or you're probably just going out your day. Today, we're going to be talking a little deeper, not just about sleep, but we're going to be talking about men's health. So I know that in shadow work, we talk about the mentality of how we should do things and the societal norms of how things are run. But the one thing we don't talk about is individual struggles between the masculine and the feminine. One of the things in shadow work that we cover is like how to define in each person because we both have it. As individuals, we possess the masculine and the feminine part of ourselves. And then in some cases, we end up. One ends up overlapping the other because of a need. So if you see mostly in females, some females, not all, where it's like they had to force themselves to be independent in order for. For them not force themselves to be independent, but force themselves to take on a more masculine independence in order to be able to thrive in today's world. Now, while that's all good and dandy, there's not just one, one gender that you need to worry about. There's also, there's also the male side of the spectrum. How are they handling their masculine and feminine? What are their balances that keep them going? And here today, we have someone that can give us not only the male perspective, but also how to balance both in this world that we live in. So we have a powerful conversation ahead with a special guest who is dedicated to transforming the way men show up in the world. Jason is a men's embodiment, coach, groom, facilitator, facilitator, and evolutionary guide, helping men break free from outdated ideas of masculinity and step into a deep clarity, purpose and connection. With over 20 years of experience in men's work, Jason knows firsthand the struggles of many that many men face loneliness, discomfort in his own skin and challenges in creating fulfilled fulfillment, fulfilling relationships. Through his coaching and men's group, he helps men shed the lone wolf mentality and embrace a healthier, more authentic way of being. Dixon's also a certified no man no more, Mr. Nice Guy Coach, and has trained with some of the most respected leaders in the space, including John Wineland, Dr. Robert Glover, and Ken Wilbur. Now, Wilma, you asked is his mission. His mission is to see every man in a men's group Building strong relationships, healthier self expression and a deep sense of purpose. Get ready for an insightful and transformative conversation. And let's welcome now Jason. Jason, how you doing, sweetie?

Jason Lange: So great. So excited to be here with you. Thank you.

Host: No problem. So can you give us like a little background on what got you from just Jason to now Jason, the. The coach group facilitator, your nominations along. So let's, let's dive into Jason.

Jason Lange: Sure.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: You know, I'll start with just a little bit of my story. So. So I'm a white man born in the Midwest of the US kind of lower middle class. So I had a lot of my basic security needs and privilege kind of met.

Host: Okay.

Jason Lange: As I grew up, particularly as I got into my teenage years, and this is often the case with a lot of people when we, you know, we grow up totally immersed in our family system and then we start to become adolescents and we get out into the world interacting with other families and other systems and started to have a sense of like, oh, yeah, wow, my family's a little different. And I can share one very specific example. It took me a few years to actually register what happened here. But when I was a junior in high school, I went and did this summer program for an environmental organization. And my friend's dad picked us all up in a minivan, drove us out to the east coast for like a week. But they swing by my house to pick me up and, you know, it was one of the first times I kind of went away on my own. And I remember my mom walking me down to the curb where he was picking me up and we kind of like awkwardly hugged goodbye because that's what you're supposed to do, you know, when you say goodbye to like a family member. And I remember just feeling really strange, like it felt really weird for some reason. It was just kind of this bookmark in my mind. And many years later, part of, partly because of shadow work, I connected the dots that why that felt weird is before that moment, I could not remember the last time I had physically touched my mother. Like I just there no memory, nothing. So while my house had a lot of basic security needs, we did not have closeness, physical closeness, touch, emotional closeness, and openness. And so I learned very early on that I was kind of on my own and I kept a lot of things deep inside. And then as I got out into the world, particular as I started, in my case, some heterosexuals started finding myself attracted to women like a teenager and wanted to have relationships and didn't like froze up, got really awkward, sweaty in my body, didn't know how to talk to them, felt a lot of inner critic and inner voice and, you know, I'm not good enough. Anyway, that kick started a journey for me because I saw my friends getting into relationships and I just, I couldn't do it. It felt out of reach for me and it caused a lot of pain. All the way through my mid-20s when I just got lucky enough for a lot of different reasons, to get exposed to men's work, somatic work and shadow work kind of all at the same time. And I had been seeing a talk therapist for about a year and a half and it was useful because, you know, I was just even talking was new to me, like talking about world in a sense. But I was also pretty sophisticated in my protection mechanisms, right. I knew how to reveal what I needed to reveal so we could kind of have a nice conversation. But I didn't like have to really get vulnerable. And then it just so happened around this time, in one of the men's groups I was in, an older male facilitator came in and, and started doing some work with us. And about 10 minutes into my session with him, I was suddenly on the ground on my back and my hands were up in the air and I was saying, hold me, hold me. And I was just crying, sobbing in a guttural way I had never done. And I sounded like a two year old. And I came up from that, you know, like what just happened there, like, whoa, you know, it kind of blew my mind. That was something I wasn't really conscious of, how much grief there was inside of me and how isolated I had felt and neglected in a lot of ways. And that really sprang forward a journey for me that, oh, I realized that little toddler, in my case that infant even, was totally present every time I was trying to connect with a woman because he was desperate. He was just desperate for some love and some touch and it would change my behavior, right? This was something that was in the shadow. And as I started to work that and integrate that and realize, wow, I was a pretty neglected child and I had to do a lot of work to be comfortable with touch, to be comfortable with receiving, communicating emotions and you know, still an edge for me. But that really all happened in a men's group and it kind of kicked off this journey of wow, whatever happened right here feels important. And in particular the man that facilitated that. I think I might have told you this when we first talked. I had the experience. It sounds Kind of, you know, a little silly that I was, you know, 25, 26 years old, but I had the experience as I was witnessing him work with me and other men of, oh, that's what I want to be when I grow up. And it wasn't necessarily his job. Turns out what I do is similar to that. But the sense I got was that's how I want my nervous system to be. He was really calm, direct, open, present, felt super safe, wasn't shy about anything, clearly had access to his full emotional range. And I was like, whatever that is, I want to be that, right? Like that's a map for me that I'd never had before of what it, what a man who's firm in his boundaries or strong or able to access anger or grief is like, but also still powerful. And that really kicked off a journey where I just immersed myself in men's groups, in particular in men's work and this shadow work that I do and have participated in. And at some point, you know, I was just telling everyone I knew about how awesome my men's group was. I was living in Los Angeles at the time and I was in a group for about 10 years there. And we just, we met in one of. One of my. The guys in my group was a therapist. We met in his office and it was a teeny office, so it could only fit eight men or so. So guys started asking me as I talked about there, can I join your group? Can I come? But I was like, no, we don't have space. Like literally I can't fit anyone in the room. And that was really the first impetus for me to just start offering groups. I started offering drop in groups in my. Out of my living room in, in kind of Mid City LA for a number of years and just guys off me.com would start coming in and have this whole different experience, right, of what was possible, particularly around their pain. And I just got, I got hooked, you know, I just got hooked. Like there's nothing I'd rather do than honestly go deep and support men. And I just continued from that, getting more training, going deeper into myself, my own practice, my own therapies, all that kind of stuff. And it's just really taken off from there. And now I would consider that work. You know, the most meaningful work I do is really supporting men and getting more deeply in touch with themselves and learning as well. I think we'll talk about what some of the new possibilities for men in this world are versus the old stereotypes, right?

Host: And I hear you when you're saying that your aha moment was when you had the moment of hold me, hold me. I know that some many of you in my community, y' all know when we have these types of moments, when I tell you about the little girl inside of you, a little boy or anything, they have a voice. You just haven't tapped into it yet. That is the perfect example of that. So when you get to that point, it's time to, at this point, start writing down the questions, either whether it be mentally on your phone or anything else, to get to that point where you're like, okay, how did I get here? Why did spirit point me to this point in my life where it's like, I had no choice but to do this. But I know many men today feel lost. What do you think is traditional masculinity is no longer serving them?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think totally. It's just not sophisticated enough, to be honest. Like, doesn't have the capacity needed to move this moment. Part of the challenge, you know, this is true for everyone, all human beings, but I think particularly men, are being confronted with it right now, is we're being asked to be and do more. So for a long time, the social contract was, you know, as the man, as a member of a family, as a father, as long as I am providing, literally, as long as I'm bringing in money or food or shelter, I'm doing my part, right? Like that. That's kind of what was expected for a long time from a lot of men. And that doesn't fly anymore. It's just not enough, Right? It is not enough, right. In terms of being a good father, a good intimate partner, we're being asked to be a lot more. And, you know, it's starting to change, but it's slow. You know, it's definitely slow. And that, you know, stats of just, you know, I think it was only 40% of fathers had ever changed a diaper in the early 80s, right. When you can. You can think about that like, so they've had a child and they've never even changed a diaper. It's just. That's not my thing.

Host: I don't do that. Has changed at least one diaper and then handed them off and say, take this bomb with you to their wives. And I. I'm. I'm not. I've done that as a godparent. I'm like, see, this is your atomic bomb. You go ahead and take that. I'm gonna go over here. But can you shed some light for me on, like, what Made you realize this work was not just for you, but something you wanted to dedicate your life to. I know you said that the group is what led you to it and that person is what you wanted. So like, what made it official that you wanted to do this?

Jason Lange: Well, part of it was, you know, for, for, in my case, it was feeling the pain of disconnect on both sides of my family system. So on my mother's side, a lot of neglect, no emotional connection. On my father's side, like we actually had a little bit more connection when, when I was quite young. But there was like, basically like past the age of six. He didn't know how to relate to me. He just didn't know. He had only grown up so much him, himself. And so he wasn't extremely present. Right. He worked. My dad owned a florist and worked seven days a week, pretty much 10 hours a day gone by the time I was up. You know, came home maybe around 7 o', clock, had dinner, fell asleep on the couch like that. Not a whole lot of connection between us. And I didn't have a lot of guidance because of that. And so my nervous system internalized not having guidance or anyone at my back. As the world is a scary place, you have to be really careful before you take any chances. And so I lived like this very kind of closed down, scared, numb in a lot of ways thing and realizing that, that, wow, I just, I've never really had masculine support in my life. And turns out the research, you know, is pretty astronomical. It's, it's, it's rare these days. You know, there's, there's a lot of single family homes. Those tend to be more female led. Right. It's the guys who often bounce. Not always, but, you know, it's often the men who bounce. And that leaves a huge vacuum for a lot of boys and girls of not having that kind of fatherly energy, which again, we all can incorporate both of these. I'm extremely nurturing with my children. I change diapers all the time. My wife can do a lot of the things I can do. But there's a difference in the energies we can bring to our kids. Right. And there's just one of those simple studies that always kind of blew my mind of, you know, the baby carriers where you can like wear a baby on your chest. And they did some research. Moms tend to wear the baby facing in like, hey, I'm here with you, I'm safe. We're connected. I got you. It's all good. There's this, like, nurturing environment. Dads tend to wear them facing out, hey, check out the world. I'm gonna. We're gonna go into the world, into the unknown together. But you're gonna feel me at your back. You're not alone.

Host: And like a sandwich.

Jason Lange: Myself. Yeah, myself and many men. Well, I'll speak for myself, you know, realized I had never had the experience of having a man at my back. Like, just literally feeling supported, that if I messed up or made a mistake or didn't know what to do, there was someone to help guide me. And as I started to connect the pieces on that and get some of that fed by men in my men's group, I was like, wow, this is huge. This is the case for a lot. A lot of men don't have that. And then we end up compensating in all kinds of ways. So for me, it was really seeing that unfold in my own process. And then, you know, I had been doing. I had some other work at the time. I was, like, doing technical stuff, web development, some film and video, and the web stuff was really what I was making my kind of paying my bills with. But every time I did that, when I would get done, I would feel exhausted, stressed out, and, like, ugh. That's what I noticed every time I sat in a men's group, I would finish and I'd feel open, energized, and, like, more available to life. And I was like, whoa. It would be really nice if what I was doing for a living left me feeling that at the end of the day versus, like. And so I decided to make the pivot and really try to help create a space for men to discover and experience these different flavors of what's possible for the masculine. Now I'll pause there.

Host: Okay, so my next question is, like, what is some of the biggest misconception about men's work? Like, I know we talk about societal norms being where the man is to protect her, and we know that the man is this. And then there's the other side that talks about, well, men are not supposed to feel. They're not supposed to what. Correction. They feel, but only to a certain extent, because it's a sense of weakness or, like, it's a sense of you not being able to control that feminine part of you, or you're kind of a. If you do that type of stuff. Like, what is, like, the b. Big misconception. Because I feel like for guys that can actually express their emotions, they're more in tune with their children. Than anything else because they've been. And a lot of us, sometimes we forget this concept when we talk about, like talk to our parents. Once upon a time, not long ago, they were just like us, trying to figure everything out. They were trying to figure out, like how they were going to pay bills, what time their paychecks, who's going to take Nathaniel to school, who's going to pick him up to go to soccer practice. Like, these are all things that we had to learn along the way, just like they did. So how. What is like some big misconceptions that you feel like that should be shine light on at this time?

Jason Lange: Yeah, maybe I'll start with what I kind of describe as the three. The three kind of archetypes most men see available to them of, oh, what a man can be in the world. That the oldest and you know, the most damaging in a lot of ways is kind of what I just call the macho jerk, right? This is the guy who just goes for what he wants, takes what he wants, has a lot of like, you know, in a sense has like a lot of confidence and leadership because he doesn't doubt himself. It's often, not always, but often, you know, fueled a little bit more by a little narcissism. And the main thing there is there's like often a lot of energy in connection to just like power and desire. I want this, so I'm going to take it. But it's disconnected. That archetype is disconnected from the heart. It's disconnected from being able to attune to the people in my life and the impact my choices are having. And honestly, the environment, literally the planet we live on, the impact my choices have. And there are, you know, there's some good in a sense in that archetype. But that's when people talk about, you know, I don't love the term, but toxic masculinity, often they're pointing to that, right? It's the masculine that makes an object out of anything and anyone and sees it all as a means to an end. And there is plenty of evidence in the history of humankind about what damage that kind of man disconnected from his heart can do. And many women have experienced it firsthand. Many men I know have actually experienced it firsthand. And you know, starting in like the 50s and 60s, I'd say in particular, there started to become an awareness of the dangers of that.

Host: Like the last part, I'm sorry, my Siri thought said open something and I'm sorry. That's okay. At least I Went. We went. The toxic masculinity. And then from the. From there. I apologize.

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. Just that, you know, that archetype, the kind of macho jerk, as we sometimes call it in men's work, that's what we'd often associate with the toxic masculine. And the main signifier of it is it's. It's disconnected from the heart. That's a man who's disconnected from his heart. And the heart is where we feel impact and have relationships. Right. So if I'm not connected to you as a human being, I can do pretty awful things to you, your community, et cetera, if I choose to not see you as a human or don't know how to. And that started to change in the 50s and 60s when there was kind of an explosion of cultural development, really kind of launched by women, honestly, and the feminist movement really kind of taking root then in women being allowed to come out of the home. Right. I don't have to just be a mom, because that's my biology. I'm allowed to be a human being with my own desires, my own bank account, the ability to vote, to have my own job, you know, to be a sovereign individual. And that started a little earlier. And then men kind of started to have their version of that, which was the inner world coming online. Right. So men started to grow out their hairs, the kind of flower child hippie movement. You know, they're feeling their bodies more. They don't have jobs, they're doing art. You know, just some stereotypes, in a sense. But there was a movement, and with that was born. And this is where one of my mentors, Dr. Robert Glover, has the book no More Mr. Nice Guy, the Birth of the Nice Guy, which is actually kind of an evolutionary response to the macho jerk. The nice guy is the man who is often raised seeing the negative impacts of the macho jerk. So the thing about how we often grow is when it comes to our parents, we either move towards being like them or often move towards being the opposite of them if we're not conscious of the process. And so a lot of men saw and experienced in the culture the macho jerk. And I hear guys say this, I work with all the time and decided, I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be that guy that's not safe or causes harm or abuse or sexualizes women in. The nice guy, in a sense, is the man who becomes a really safe presence. He's very thoughtful. He doesn't push his agenda on anyone. He's really attuned to other people in a sense. The problem with that guy that a lot of guys are discovering now is that he often neglects himself. So he doesn't know how to set boundaries, he doesn't know how to say no. He takes people being mean to him and he tends to over prioritize that the well being of other people over himself. And that has caused a lot of harm for men and sometimes a lot of frustration, at least in the hetero world with women who are like, you know, I like you, you're a nice guy, but I don't feel attracted to you. You know, it's kind of the, that, that, that term, the friend zone. Like yeah, I'd want to be your friend, but I don't really see you as a lover. Because oftentimes what happens with that guy is he's got a lot of heart, energy, but he's disconnected from his lower body, his power, his desire, his ability to say no and take the lead in his own life. So those are two of the big ones in the culture. And then just one third one, which I kind of call it more the grandfatherly energy. A lot of guys may know men who served in World War II or Vietnam or the Korean War and it's kind of the stoic, right? It's the man who just shows up, does his job, but is tight lipped, does not talk at all about his past or what's going on inside or what he's feeling. And that one causes a lot of damage in the culture as well. And you know, I was just reading a research paper recently that talked about like the reality of men who tend to strongly identify with those stoic values, right? So kind of rational thinking, don't ever share emotion or let it take control. Be totally self directed. They are way more likely to commit suicide. Like that worldview has an impact on your wellbeing in the world. And you know, I kind of call that the myth of the lone wolf. So guys are given these archetypes and none of them are working and they don't know. You know, part of the problem when guys come to me is they're like, I don't know, what am I supposed to be, right? It's not enough to just earn money. If I'm too vulnerable. Sometimes it scares people in my life because they don't know what to do with my pain as a man. I don't want to be that macho jerk. I don't want to be an abusive, objectifying kind of man. So I Don't know how to be. And when we haven't had that example to us, like, I received that transmission from that older man of, whoa, that's the kind of nervous system I want. I didn't even know that was possible because no one had ever showed it to me. And we have very few examples of that in our culture, of what it means to be a grounded, powerful man who is also open, attuned, and sensitive. Right. Both can be true. I can be feeling deep grief and sadness in my body and still be very present and very strong. Another huge one that gets rewired for a lot of guys I know is as a man, I can be in my anger and still be completely safe for the people around me. Not an aggressive, dangerous, short fuse kind of guy, but there's a capacity to hold both. And turns out it feels way better to be around when you're around that safe version. Um, and so, yeah, I mean, the biggest misconception based on all of that is that, you know, men are supposed to be tough. We're supposed to be invulnerable. We are not supposed to feel pain or share pain or talk about pain or ever show any kind of weakness, because if we do, we're not considered a man. And there. One last thing I'll share and then I'll. I'll pause. There's another amazing research study where they interviewed both men and women. So this is really interesting. They interviewed both men and women about adolescence to adulthood. And they asked what marks the transition of a girl into a woman and a boy into a man? And on both sides, both men and women, when they were talking about and commenting on girls, they mostly focused on the physical. Her body has changed and developed. She started her cycle. She's a woman now. Right. With boys to men, it wasn't based on their physical biology. It was based on social factors of how they're showing up in their community, families, and lives. So you can be a boy in a full grown, fully matured adult body, and we'll say that that guy's not a man, he's a boy. Right? And there's a difference between, at least culturally, how we hold that and that those expectations we put on men. There's some healthy ones, but a lot of them are unhealthy. And we kind of call those the man box. Those are the, you know, the negatives of the patriarchy. Again, never show weakness. Never show pain. Do everything alone. Don't ask for help. A big one that messes up a lot of guys. I Work with, you know, partly from porn culture is if sex is available to you, you, you should take it and if you don't, you're not considered a man. Right. Like these are the things that a lot of guys carry that. Oh my God, she's, she, she's attracted to me, so I should have sex with her even though I don't really want to. And if I don't, I'm not a man. Because, you know, all these messages are, are coming into us from a young age and it has a severe consequence on men and their mental health and literally their longevity. You know, this is the crazy, crazy things. More men commit suicide, more heart disease, and there's plenty of research now that connects that to social isolation and the cost of holding everything inside.

Host: Okay, so now that we've jumped into like the misconceptions and everything, let's go ahead and get into like the crisis part of the masculinity, like having men's group. I know you said that the men's group changed your life as well as change the lives of other men. So how do men's group help men break through from the lone wolf masculinity? And why, why do they believe, why do you believe every man should be in a men's group? Like they can just go to therapy and just have, have everything situated. What is so special about it?

Jason Lange: Yeah, you know, the. I suggest to men they do both for one. So I, I don't say men's groups should come at the cost of coaching or therapy. Oftentimes we can think of, it's not quite this binary. But you know what's really great about a therapeutic relationship is often we get to heal our primary attachment wounds with authority figures or people who are supporting us. Meaning, you know, the, the whole gift of like having a therapist is the direction of attunement is one way.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: You're not, I'm not going into therapy and my therapist isn't dumping their stuff on me. Right. Literally the whole point of the session is they are present for me and they are attuning to me and I am sharing and expressing and there doesn't need to be reciprocation which is, you know, that's the healthy version of a young child parent relationship as well. Where a lot of things go wrong is for developmental or cultural or all kinds of reasons. When kids have to start attuning to their parents at too early an age, it causes a lot, a lot of trouble long term. Like if they're co regulating their parent. So One way to heal that is you get into a therapeutic relationship where your nervous system gets to experience, wow, I don't have to do anything for this person. And that's one of the great gifts of therapy, I think. Men's group, what I see is often it's where we can start to heal our peer to peer relationships. And so a lot of guys, not all guys, but a lot of guys. I know a lot of the damage of the patriarchy, so to speak, comes from other men, right? Adolescence, those teenage years, bullying, ostracizing, sometimes, yeah, involving physical bullying and whatnot. Sometimes it comes from parents or their fathers or whatnot. And there's this real fear of other men, that other men are not safe. So what's really powerful about a men's group is, is we get to rewrite that story, get to be in community and in connection with other men and start to have the experience of, they can be safe. I can bring my full self forward here, and it can be safe. And so, you know, one of the big challenges these days is, you know, the stats. I'm sure they've only been accelerated since COVID and work from home. But, you know, men have been reported to have fewer close relationships than previous generations. It's like almost 15% of all men report having no close friends now. So no one they can talk to really regularly about their inside. Yeah, the numbers are getting pretty messed up for a lot of guys. A lot of the places we would traditionally get that are kind of being wiped away in some sense because of our hyper. At least here in the states, where, you know, where I am, our hyper focus on individuality and privacy, like the common just community.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: Public space, like all of that is devalued in a lot of ways, and that has an impact. But that, you know, isolated men in particular, they have mortality rates comparable to guys that smoke a pack of cigarettes a day. Like, they will die sooner. It's social isolation increases risk of death by almost 30%. Like 30%. So when we are isolated as men, we will often die sooner. Our health will actually decline when we get into, you know, a men's group's just one manifestation of this that I can talk about. But really a social group, depression goes down by nearly a quarter. Anxiety levels go down by almost 30%. Our immune system function goes up when we feel connected in community. Now a men's group's really great because it's a place where men learn, hey, I can bring all of myself here. I can bring the parts of myself I Don't know how to hold. I can be vulnerable, quite literally. I can collapse and sometimes be held emotionally, physically, you name it. Something that many men have never experienced. And simultaneously, this is a place where I can be held accountable for my life. There's something I'm wanting. Men can give me feedback about how I'm actually creating that in my life. Right. I recently talked about this as the spinach in the teeth moment that a lot of men are actually craving and don't have, which is someone that cares about them, is tracking them enough in their life and is present enough to say, hey, you got some spinach in your teeth. And then, oh, my God, you know, I feel nervous. I feel a little embarrassed you had that. But wow, thank you for telling me because I've been walking around all day and no one mentioned it, and now I feel like an idiot. Right. So the spinach in the teeth moment. Can't remember what site I think it was. A addiction recovery specialist coined this term, which I've also come to learn I really love is carefrontation. So it's when I confront someone, but with care in love that, hey, how you're showing up in your life right now, it's causing you pain. And it really seems to be causing the people around you pain. What's going on, what needs to change so you're not in that kind of pain anymore. And that's a really unique, special kind of energy we get in men's groups that gets men more connected to each other. And the other thing I'll share is one of the big challenges right now is when men don't have strong connections, they're far more open to manipulation. Right. So this is where we call them parasocial relationships. Right. It's like, it feels like intimacy if I'm following someone on Facebook or Instagram. But it's not a peer to peer relationship. Right. There's not that mutual attunement happening. And a lot of men, when they don't have connection in their life, they try to find that through movements, identities, different things, and they're, they're very open to manipulation, honestly. And what I've found is in a good men's group, kind of like a good family in a sense, when we have strong, healthy ties with people who know us deeply and personally and whose value feedback we value, it actually inoculates us against a lot of the world because we're like, well, most people don't know who I am, so. So I don't need to be so worried about Their judgments or criticisms or what they say is right. What I care about is the feedback of people who really know me, know my history, know my wounding, know what I want in the world. And a men's group is a place where we can really create that bond over time. Last thing I'll say on this is not everything can be collapsed into this, but there are some biological differences too. So, right, there's oxytocin, which most people know is kind of the bonding hormone. And that tends to. There tends to be a little bit more of it in a feminine nervous system. Right. In female biology, we have that capacity as men. And it was one of the things that blew me away. Becoming a father was the research of as soon as you become a father, your testosterone levels drop and they never go back. They never go back to that same high naturally. And every time you have a kid that go down because you need to be more relational, there's, like, a good reason for it, but that even inside of that, men, we have a little bit more sensitivity to a different hormone called vasopressin, which is also a bonding hormone. So, oddly enough, vasopressin and oxytocin have the same kind of grand grandparent hormone in the evolutionary chain, but they just kind of come out a little bit different. And we have different amount of receptors in a male body and a female body. For men, vasopressin, what actually causes it is challenge. It's figuring out and going through challenge together creates deep bonds. So we see this a lot. You can, and it's not just in men, but you see this a lot in service men and women who go serve in the military, and they come back and they often have these extremely deep bonds with the people they served with. And oftentimes these really challenging feelings of guilt, of leaving them behind because they get so connected. Being in those highly stressful environments, it creates, like, a lifelong bond in some pretty substantial and powerful ways. In men's group, what it ends up becoming is a way for men to move through stressful things together and bond. You know, back in the day, those stressful things would be, you know, dealing with other tribes, famine, hunting, Just, you know, the hard things you have to do to survive as an. As a human. Before industrial kind of culture came. These days, you know, we live a lot safer lives. It's, you know, for those of us, you know, it's not perfect, but overall, we're not looking over our back, you know, for a predator these days. So what a men's group does is it shifts that, that kind of facing challenge together from the outer world of risk to the inner world, often of going in and looking at our wounding and feeling the parts of ourselves, those shadow elements that have sometimes been passed down for generations in our lineage as men. And we get to be the brave ones who finally take a look at that and go through these really hard things. And I was just leading a shadow work retreat for guys a couple weeks ago, and it's quite exceptional, the bonding that occurs between men when they've witnessed each other do this really intense, hard inner work. It's like you show up as strangers and you leave as best friends. And that's kind of this vasopressin thing that can be a really great part of a men's group, Right. Where there is both the support and the accountability and challenge for us to keep growing forward in our lives.

Host: Right. So I want to dive into, like, I know we, we're at the 40. Yep, we're at the 40 minute mark. So I want to dive in, like, briefly on your role as a coach. So that way people can understand exactly what you do. So it'll be understanding. So how does embodiment work help men reconnect with themselves? And does it play a vital role in emotional intelligence? Do you, like, what is it that I'm trying to say? How can, basically, how can men start showing up for themselves within your practice? And any advice that you want to give them on struggling with loneliness or purpose.

Jason Lange: Great questions and I can be a little verbose. So if you need to cut me off at any point, feel, please feel free.

Host: I'm loving this. I'm learning a lot, so I'm not getting you off for that. So you.

Jason Lange: These are, yeah, great, great questions. So, you know, to tie it back into some of the challenges men face in what, you know, again, I would kind of call the patriarchy of how boys are often raised differently than girls. And from a young age, you know, it's, it's changing. And you'll see this for, for any child, but particularly for boys, boy falls down and scrapes his knee. Often the traditional response is, oh, you're fine, get up, it's okay. You're tough, right? Like, override the pain. You're going to be okay. Don't cry. Like, stop crying, right? Just one of the most poisonous things I think that can be said to children of any kind is stop crying, right? Like, what's happening in your body, Ignore it. It's really what that message is. Boys get that pretty heavy from a young age. What's happening inside your body? Override it with your head. Get up, be tough, stop crying. We get into school for most boys that go to, you know, kind of normal K through 12 schooling, the way that system is set up is you sit still for most of the day. Right. Other than maybe a little bit of recess and pe, boys bodies again have a slightly different hormonal profile and they need to move. They literally need to move. We're little spazzes, right? You've probably seen it. Like little boys, we got energy. I remember when I was first dating my now wife, we went miniature golfing once in la and, and there was a, there was a group of kids in front of us, a family, and there was a young boy, it was maybe like 4 years old. And literally this is what happened. There's like some time in between their hole and next and he had his golf club and he just started hitting a plant. Like just bang, bang, bang, like kind of just hitting it, being kind of like a kind of chaotic little boy. And she just did not understand it. And I was like, that's just kind of what boys do. We have a physicality oftentimes that if people don't know how to handle it, can become pretty destructive actually. But point being, we get told from a young age, sit still. So the urge to move in your body, override it with your head.

Host: And then we become adolescents because yeah.

Jason Lange: There'S a time and place for it.

Host: But the, the idea, yeah, because at that point in time with my God kids, I would be sitting here like popping their hand because I'd be like, you got nothing else to do. You just like just this irkin manure with the bang.

Jason Lange: Yeah, well, you know, part of the solution to that would be if, you know, if, if you can take them outside and they can just run through the woods, like literally. It's really good for a boy's nervous system to just go out and move all that energy. But again, the, the thread I want to follow here is then we get to adolescence where we quickly learn our bodies are changing at a different pace from other boys bodies. There's, there's hierarchy quickly established. Anytime you share any kind of vulnerability, you're often ostracized or made fun of or attacked. So we learn to start holding our true experience inside to create an image of, you know, I'm a tough guy, I'm not weak. And we come out of all that, we get into the workforce, men 10, you know, we tend to be, I mean, not just men, unfortunately, our Capitalist society is, yeah, sleep under the. Under the desk at work. Work 90 hours a week, right? Ignore your body, push harder. Drive, drive, drive. So just from a very young age, men, boys are often taught to be disconnected and are often rewarded for being disconnected from our bodies. And in the work I do, right, emotion always starts as a physical sensation. Ooh, my belly's getting a little tight. I feel a little bit of heat in my shoulders. Oh, there's that pit in my stomach. And so if we're disconnected from our bodies as men, lo and behold, it becomes extremely hard to connect to our emotional experience inside. And they have a term for this, right? Interoception. Proprioception is like, you know, just noticing, being aware of how your body moves through space. Interoception is the awareness of what's happening inside of me. What am I feeling? And a lot of us boys are not given the training to identify our feelings, let alone express them, and know what to do with them. For most boys, or particularly as they become men, what's the one emotion allowed? Anger. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He got really angry. He's a man. Yeah, right. Everything else considered weak. And so a lot of the guys I work with come into the world not feeling great. Like, literally just they have. They don't feel good inside. There's grief or anger or sadness or fear, and no one's ever taught them how to label that. Like, how you feeling? I'm fine. Yeah, it's like a lot of guys come in with it. Like, that's the range of their emotional expression and vocabulary. I have to teach them, come into your body, start to get connected. You can start to feel these things. And very soon it gets much more nuanced, right? Oh, yeah, I'm feeling that in my chest. I'm feeling that in my stomach. And as we learn that languaging, we can then talk about our inner experience and share it. And that does so much for healing. So embodiment is really important because if we're not connected to ourselves, we don't. We can't even name what we're feeling. And if we don't know what we're feeling, it's actually creates a lot of dysregulation in ourselves. And then what do most men do when they're feeling something inside that don't know what it is and it's uncomfortable? They try to numb out or get rid of it by drinking, smoking, having sex, watching porn, eating too much food, overworking, you name it, they reach for that to try to change the state of their nervous system because no one ever gave them the tools to say, hey, actually what you're feeling inside right now is a lot of sadness. You're really sad that, you know X, Y or Z. And as they get more embodied, that gets easier to do. They have a lot more intimacy with their emotional body and can start to work with these things and have a lot more choice. So a lot of the work I do with men, quite literally is to slow them down, get them connected to their bodies, allow them to drop out of the never ending rumination of the mind for a while and actually get a sense of what is my body feeling right now. And oftentimes when we slow down and start to feel uncomfortable, material comes up that needs to be felt and metabolized. And why this is so important for men is most men I know and work with, particularly you know, around the age of 40 and above, one of the biggest issues for them in life becomes energy management. Not just always being exhausted and feeling tired and burdened, having energy to be present with your kids or your lover or at your work or in your community. And the thing with this emotional content is it takes energy to not feel. This is kind of a crazy thing to think about. But, you know, if you imagine there was a young boy crying really, really hard because he hurt himself. And I walked up to him and I was like, stop crying. How does he do it?

Host: He sucks it up and just pulls.

Jason Lange: Sucks in his breath, stops breathing, tightens up his belly, tenses up his whole nervous system. Literally. We hold it, we hold it inside. And I always do this somatic experience. For anyone listening right now, if I'm like, okay, you're just sitting here and now I want you to tense up your whole body. So contract your belly and your biceps and your arms, Just tense it all up. You're like, okay, yeah, that doesn't feel so good. But now, if I'm like, now hold this for two hours, pretty quick, you're going to be exhausted just from holding the tension in your body. And that happens with this stuff. So the more emotional content we have in process as men, we hold it. And there's more and more research about our fascia and all this stuff. It literally gets held in our body and the energy it takes to hold it, lo and behold, is not energy and life force available for us to be bringing into our lives in the ways we want. So as I work with men in shadow work and embodiment and coaching, we go inside, we often become more present to what feels not so great. What maybe from our past, we never had the safety to feel or process or experience. And we go through it, we feel it, and then it starts to liberate our nervous systems. And it's one of the great joys of my work is getting to see men come alive. Literally. There's more energy in their bodies. They become more animated, Their face lights up, they look younger, their eyes get softer, they become more alive because that energy that was stuck, that was kinked in that emotion, becomes available to them again. And so I do that individually with men, and my favorite place to do it is in a group because the depth we can go is pretty incredible in terms of how I'm sure you've seen it, where one person's work starts to resonate with another person's work, and they're like, whoa. I actually. My dad was the same way. And then they start, you know, having a release, and it can just get very deep, very fast in a way that I can do with men, one on one. But my favorite place is absolutely in a group.

Host: And I get that because I'm glad you said something about outlets, especially, like, the sex, the drugs, and all the other stuff, because, like, I know some women that turn to that as a way, like, turn to sex and overworking. Overworking, specifically, because it's like, yeah, you're trying to prove something that your other counterparts don't have what you have. But in actuality, you're only making it worse and you're only leading yourself to burnout anyway. So the only thing you can do is literally just be your authentic self and then let the work flow as it should and then just go from there. No one's asking you to be top tier or head hbic all the time, or head man all the time, or big boss. We're just looking to make sure that, number one, I know in jobs that you're doing your job correctly. Secondly is making sure that you're able to function even while doing your job. And it doesn't put you, like, in a mental distress where you feel as if that, oh, I hate this job now. I used to love it, but now it just feels like the vein of my existence because I can be here. I don't have a choice anymore. And when you get to that mental point, it feels more like a weight rather than. It feels more like an empty air balloon rather than air in the balloon itself. So I do encourage, and I've done this, like, with a couple of my. My male friends, and I asked them the Question. I was like, why do you feel like you have to be hard all the time? Like, you're straight with me because you. We talk and you can talk to me. But he was like, because you're the safe space that I have for that. Otherwise I can't do that around anybody else. Because of that, I'm considered like. There is a slang term for it, but we are not going to say it on air.

Jason Lange: Yeah, exactly.

Jason Lange: Exactly.

Host: And it's because of the standards, because I know that in the black community, we raised the little boys to be tough guys. They can't cry, they can't do anything. And I've seen it firsthand. And I've like, done it firsthand because that's what all I know. And it's like, even after this conversation, it's like, I've noticed that, like, I've had to tone down the masculine part of my being to level out with the feminine in order to be able to interact with other people. Because I know fun fact. The. The. And this is like common misconception is like, all black women are very independent in ball busters. And I'm like, number one, I am not. I am just a person that's just like, if I feel like I'm not being heard and I'm not being communicated enough, or you act like you didn't hear me, I'm gonna go ahead and instead of me grabbing a microphone, I'm grabbing a megaphone with an amp, crank it up to a problem and be like, if you didn't hear me, Hear me now. This is how I'm feeling. And if you do not like it at this point, I don't care because I shouldn't have to do this. Like, it. It gets to that point where it also determines, like, who you're around will also determine the type of person that you'll be. And I was like, I can only imagine all the things that my male friends have seen that have converted them to this point, to where they feel like they don't have a safe space or men group to go to. So it, it's amazing to hear from you where you're like, a men's group is a safe space for them to be able to grow and be who they would like to be or show the person that they want to be to whoever they value in their life. But in turn, they don't have that type of space because it's not something developed, but because of either cultural barriers or societal barriers. And I think we really should take a recognition about that. Societal barriers are just the concept of how to live within the world. Social barriers is. Cultural barriers are just how you live within your culture itself. But I think barriers, period, when it comes down to you as a person, that's something where you have to understand that you set the rules. And when you get to that point, you yourself are going to have to look at the people, places and things you associate with and see whether or not that that's the person that you want to be or that's the person that you are going to strive to be and whether or not you want to continue. Because like you said, it does take a lot of energy to hold. Hold that tension in your nervous system and in tissues. A lot of some people don't know that your muscles, your nervous system and the tissues that you hold every day, you may think like they're just regular fat and muscle and stuff, but they hold tensions and traumas from years of whatever you've been through that you've either consciously or subconsciously haven't dissected yet. So like when someone I know there's some massage therapy therapist that they go through like the mental tension of if they go through a certain muscle, it reminds the person of like if, say, for example, they were raped at one point and then their attacker held their right arm. And then you notice throughout their life they don't let people touch them on the right side, but you know that the left side is okay because they didn't get to that point. Point. Then when they get to the Massage the area that is a. No, no. Then we start to unravel, unravel the. The string that's attached to that. So I. I know that that's an intense thing for. For some people, and it's not like a. It's not a fun topic to discuss, but we do need to talk about these things and the way we used to do things, they don't compute anymore. And being able to be in tune with yourself, your emotions and everything else, that's. Something has to be at the forefront. Now, I understand you don't have to be overly emotional, not telling you that, where you're a sobbing mess every 24 minutes, but it's just like understanding. Understanding where your mind sits when a situation occurs and how you react to it from that point on. So I believe, like, my final question for you, Jason, is like, for someone listening who's never done men's work or never been to a men's group, where do they start? Like, is there like a. A website for this or is there a group?

Jason Lange: It's a great question. And, you know, it's part of my mission to have an answer to that. When people do ask, there's lots of, you know, you can definitely oftentimes find things in your local community. Going on to meetup.com eventbrite asking local therapists and stuff. Hey, did, you know, have any men's groups meeting that I would highly recommend online? There's more and more resources, obviously. I have some offerings of my own that are a starting point for, you know, men who, hey, I want to. I want to try this thing out. What's a men's group? How do I experience it? One of the cool things about this moment in time is just like, you and I are connecting virtually. We can run men's groups virtually now, which was much harder, impossible to do, you know, 20, 30 years ago. And so it meant if you didn't have anything in your geographical area, you didn't have access. And that's all changing. You know, it's really great when you can be in the same physical location and get that local community. But for some men, depending on where they live, they don't actually have that as an available option. And so things like my organization, Evolutionary Men, and lots of other organizations that are starting now have things you can do online to just start to get a taster and to experience that. Yeah, there's a different frequency and potential here for how we can relate as men. And it's not about just sitting around whining or Crying, you know, some of the misconceptions people have of a men's group or banging drums or being misogynists and talking about, you know, women and all that kind of. It's none of that. It's about slowing down, getting really present with each other and saying, hey, what's happening in your life right now? Where are you in pain? Where do you want to be? And just bringing that attention onto each other is a game changer for so many men and helps them start to orient to a way forward. So I'm a huge proponent of it. You know, if you need help finding one, even if you don't work with me, I like pointing people towards resources. So you can always drop me a contact on my website and I'll. I'll like you let me know where you're at and we'll see what we can dig up for you. It's. It's that important to me because in my opinion, if every man was in a group, a lot of the challenging things that were happening in the world right now wouldn't be happening. Because one of the things that's not happening enough is men aren't calling forward other men, right. To say, hey, what you're doing, not so cool. I know you got better inside of you. There's, you know, women have been trying to hold this planet together now for a number of years, and they need some help. So I think men can really help step into that here, feel that.

Host: And this is the ending question that I ask every guest. So you ready? Yeah. If you could say something to yourself, whether it be past, present or future, younger or older, what would you tell them right now? Like, in this moment, to help them, like, walk in the future to be a better you, Like.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Two things quickly come to mind. I'm going to cheat. One is it's okay to ask for help. And number two is just turn towards whatever the pain is. It's a lesson I've had to learn over and over and over again. Trying to avoid feeling something that was uncomfortable. And the truth is, when we just turn right towards it, it's one of the greatest life hacks there is in terms of reclaiming our power and agency and vitality in life of whatever that discomfort is. Turn towards it, right? Become intimate with it. Don't try to eject from it. And it's a lesson I'm still learning, but every time I do, I'm like, oh, man. Yeah. Wow. Turns out I guess I was kind of avoiding that feeling for two months. That was a lot of wasted time because then, you know, it took me 10 minutes to fully feel it, and now I'm not carrying that anymore. So it's okay to ask for help and turn towards whatever feeling or emotional discomfort you have, and if you don't know how to do it alone, yeah, ask for help. Get support from other men, from coaches, from therapists. There's lots of avenues possible. And it's not just woo stuff like, you will likely live longer and be able to enjoy the relationships you care about the most in your life even more.

Host: Well, thank you, Jason. We really appreciate you giving your time with us and giving us an insight on the male mind and what to expect and what not to expect if you don't go into a men's group. And also just sharing your personal story. From what I've learned, like, being part of, like, the Perspectives on Cancer organization and writing, my chapter in it was that everyone's story has such a silver lining, if you look at it correctly. And everyone has their own little quirk and authenticity that makes them them. That is something that only they can do. And I feel like this is your calling as a coach and everything, and I support you and all your ways, and I appreciate you our match on PodMatch and how you came in with an open mind and a very loving heart, and I see that in you. And I thank you so much for allowing us your time.

Jason Lange: Well, thank you for creating the space and being such a wonderful host and helping to get the word out to people that, hey, there's a better way to be in the world. You don't have to suffer so much.

Host: That is the whole purpose of Shadow Corner and to make sure that everyone knows that there is someone like you somewhere. And if I can bring them on the show so that when they amplify that voice, then I'll do that. So we're going to wrap it up here and we will see you soon.

Jason Lange: Okay, thank you.

Host: Bye for now. All righty, good people. So this is as much as I would love this conversation to go, because I especially if it's a very intriguing conversation, we can go on and on all day, but things have. You have things to do. You have a life to get back to. But I do appreciate you hanging out with me and Jason for this conversation on, like, men's healing and growth and how old ways aren't exactly the new wave of things, like it or not. And this is my final remarks on this episode. Times are changing and we've seen it in the movement of the presidency? No, I'm not political person, I'm just mentioning like fear effects, presidency, housing, food. I remember 28. I remember eggs being like 28. I was like, like 10, maybe $5 for a box of eggs. They're $28 from when me and my sister went to Walmart and we think that is ridiculous. But only thing that I'm trying to say is that even though life ends up, the world keeps spinning. You have the opportunity, no matter what you do, to change your circumstances, your mental well being, as well as everything that's attached to you that needs a change. Don't change because someone says you have to. You have to make the conscious decision to do so. And whether we know it or not, in all of us, we have the feminine, the grand feminine and the grand masculine that lives inside of us. Now, how one overlaps the other instead of balancing out is either due to the environment that you're under or is due to what you've been conditioned to your majority of your life. A lot of people don't know that like your environments make you who you are. So if you were in what Jason was mentioning about, like an environment where you had to be the ultra macho narcissist that just had no heart connection, then it'll be hard for you to connect to people. And then when you get older and you start to shift, you'll realize those group of people, they are not like you're not like that anymore. And you'll end up going into a different direction. That doesn't mean you love them any less. That just means that you've evolved from that mentality enough to where you can actually move forward and help others if you so choose. Jason isn't a perfect example of someone that helps. That's helping someone when he was in that space. I'm an example of like how you can bring your story and how people can resonate more often than others. So Natalie, what I'm trying to say is make sure that if you need help, say something. Close mouths, don't get fed. And in the words of a great woman that I once knew, you can't get where you're going if you can constantly keep slapping against a brick wall. Eventually somebody, something's going to crack. It's either you or the brick wall. But I'm pretty sure that you know that the brick wall is going to win and you're going to be the one left broken. So from this side of life, you're going to have to choose exactly where you're directing Your energy, where you're directing anything that you want out of your life to. And sometimes it requires. Sometimes it requires a sacrifice. And it may not be something that you want it to be, but it's something that as a person, you know, you have to sacrifice for yourself. But in the same time, honor that section of you so that way you can be able to. And I'm trying to do it the right way without praying, because this is something that I know personally. Honor that person and honor that section of you that gave this new version of you life. Because without them, you wouldn't have who you are right now. Don't ever disrespect them either. You can talk smack, but don't ever disrespect what they went through because you would not be here. And that goes for also parents, too. Once upon a time, they were just like you, trying to figure everything out. And you have to forgive them at one point. And I understand. What do I know? I'm just one of people that had took the time out to talk to my mom, to forgive her because she didn't know how to properly, or at least in my terms, properly see to my emotional needs. But after conversations, I knew that no one was there for her either. So I can't discount her for that. And I can't discount my father for that either. He gave me all the love in the world, but at the same token, he also made sure he understood what the true quality of being yourself and being authentic and what authentic love stood for. So make sure that you're either going to a therapist or you in a men's group or you're in a group in general. This is not just about men, too. It's about women as well. We need these groups as well. And there's a couple of them around here in South Carolina. And you just have to be able to find it. If I can find the link to it, I will put it in the show notes. But otherwise, thank you so much again, guys, for tuning in with me. Sam.