Men’s Groups and the New Masculinity- A Conversation with Jason Lange | A Joyful Rebellion

Jason Lange: We actually need more healthy, masculine energy, which is not the take, take, take paradigm that has been identified with the masculine for so long, but it is the generative masculine. It's the part that says, hey, I care about those around me. And real power in the framework I tend to explore with men is it's not how much power can I accumulate for myself, it's how much power can flow through me to empower those around me.

Host: This is A Joyful Rebel, a podcast that explores that moment you realize the life and success you worked so hard to create didn't come with all the fulfillment you thought it would. I'm your host, James Walters, and I want you to be the author of your own story. Each week I connect with people who inspire bold answers to the question what do I do now to create a life I love? If you're ready to start answering that question for yourself, you're in the right place. So let's start a Joyful Rebellion. Here's something cool I just learned Guys who join men's groups often end up with better relationships, more confidence, and a stronger sense of purpose. And as a side note, I would add that guys who get a handle on those three things I just mentioned also have healthier bank accounts and get to take better vacations. My guest today is Jason Lange, a Men's Guide coach and the founder of Evolutionary Men. He's dedicated to helping guys figure out their challenges with whether it's relationships, work or just life in general by connecting them with the kind of support and community that actually makes a difference. He's helped tons of men step out of isolation, find their tribe, and become the best versions of themselves. In today's chat, Jason and I talk about why men's groups are such a game changer, how our modern society has totally reshaped what it means to be a man, and why having a solid group of guys around you can make all the difference. He even shares his own story of transformation and is pretty inspiring. So whether you're a guy looking for more perspective in your life or you know someone who could use this information, stick around. This episode has some great takeaways you won't want to miss. Jason Lange, thank you for being here on A Joyful Rebellion.

Jason Lange: I'm so excited to be here. James. Thanks for having me.

Host: When I ran across your bio, you talk a lot about the importance of men joining a men's group and how different things are today for men, men's identity, men's mental health, and just the some of the struggles that men Have. And before we get started, I just want to say I think about half of my audience are women. Ladies, don't turn it off. Because if you've got a man in your life, you could gain some pretty interesting insight from what Jason has to offer us. So kick us off. You started this journey early in your life in wanting to create yourself into a better man. What started that? Because. And I know I just asked you a question, and then you would think you'd start answering it, but for anyone who's listening for the first time, a joyful rebellion is about that time where you realize that you haven't been necessarily creating your life in a way that you potentially could. And then you have to make the decision, do I want to go to the effort to start being the creator of my life and not just riding the ride? That's where the rebellion part comes in. Because a lot of times you have to do things you've never done before or you have to do things that are kind of against either your upbringing or your current programming. And that's what we want to talk about today. Tell us how this all got started.

Jason Lange: It's an important part of my story, and it's, unsurprisingly then, a lot of the work I support other men in doing. Now, for me, what really got me on the trajectory of what I would kind of call growth and change. Right? Wow. I have to actively participate here in my life because it's not what I want it to be. You're right. It started pretty young for me, really, in my teenage years. Like many men, I know when I. One of the only things that is sometimes painful enough, as I say, to get us off the couch, to change, to say, hey, I need some help. I need. Something else has to happen here is when we have pain around relationships, meaning we're wanting to be in a relationship, create a relationship, or stay in a relationship, and it's not working for us. For me, that. That started in my teenage years of just totally clueless with women, totally awkward in my body, had no idea how to talk to a woman, connect with a woman, and, you know, seeing friends around me doing that and not understanding, like, what's going on with me. And that really kicked off my journey of like, hey, this doesn't feel good. What do I need to do differently here so I can have these experiences that I want to have? Luckily, I would guess in some ways, the trajectory that took me on was initially towards philosophy and understanding the mind and these kind of heady, esoteric paths. But through that, I actually got connected to somatic therapy and eventually men's groups. Things are changing a lot, James, in terms of just even the last couple years and the work I'm doing and many men are doing. But for me, when I was in my mid-20s, this was mid-2000s, you say men's group, people are like, what are you talking about? Maybe some people had a frame of reference of, like, a church group. A lot of church groups will have men's groups. That's very different from what I do in some sense, and what I got connected to, which was a group of men who circle up and put their attention on each other and what's working and what's not working in their lives. And it was in that context that things really started to transform for me, that I really started to understand myself. And in particular, for the first time in my life, in some significant ways, I experienced other men that I wanted to be like. I was around other guys, some older men, some mentors, and ended up working with me. And, you know, in kind of a hilarious way, it's like I'm sitting in a room with them and it's like, oh, that's what I want to be when I grow up. And it wasn't so much what they were doing, but it's about how they were being, how they were breathing, their presence, their ability to communicate, how in touch with themselves they were. I was like, wow, I've never felt that before, like, in many of the men I experienced in my life. And that radically changed the direction of my life and helped me understand myself in some pretty profound ways and realize, wow, I have some work to do here to transform some of my patterns around relating and beliefs about myself. The men in that group then helped support me through that whole journey in a way that I think many men are so longing for these days, even if they're not totally conscious of it. But that could be so transformed. Yeah. In short, for me, it really started with, wow, I'm not having the experiences I want in life. It seems like it's a little easier for some other people. Not that it's always easier. So what's going on? And turns out that path was, wow, I gotta understand myself. What led me to feel this way in my body, connect with others this way? And men's groups and personal growth and change work were really kind of the path for doing that. Which in some ways I feel really lucky in that, as a men's guide now, there's a lot of paths to the work, but for some men, it's like they find success early on in life, whether it's with career, dating. And it's not until that midlife crisis that the internal world comes online of like, am I even happy? Did I just jump on the escalator of life? Do I even want to be here? Like, it's a big thing for a lot of men. I had it reversed. I was trying to figure all that out early, and then some of my relationship and career success came a little later in life. But it's worked out to my benefit for sure.

Host: Yeah. And I mean, if you can catch it early, amazing. If you've got that awareness, because a lot of people don't. A lot of people are going through the high school experience, and then they go through the college experience, and you get bumps and bruises. You learn a little bit along the way of what you do and don't like, but then you're right. For quite a few men, it's not until some crisis happens somewhere in midlife. If that's a relational crisis, if that's a financial. You know, it could be circumstances in the world, loss of a job, that creates this need to explore a little further and maybe fill in some of the gaps. I saw something interesting in your bio. You are a Certified no more Mr. Nice Guy. Dr. Glover. He wrote this book. I read this book years ago, and I want to take a little left, turn down a rabbit trail for a second about something you kind of touched on. And that is the fact that, you know, what's it been like 70, 80 years now that boys have been growing up and their dads go to work and they. They go to work at some office. It used to be you'd go hunting with your friends father all the time. You would go to the farm and work with your father, like every day pretty much. Then the world changed. It changed a lot. So now the boy is. Is growing up. He's either in the house or he's going to school. His mom is a female. His school teacher is most likely in those days. I can only remember. And it wasn't until I got to high school, I think I had one, maybe two male teachers who weren't the gym teacher, you know, that kind of thing. His contention is that there's a period in time where things shifted from boys being around men almost all the time and having role models that they could look to at a very young age to model what it was to be a man, to be masculine, to being around women and having to kind of just get through that experience as a child. And then they carried that experience, those coping mechanisms into their adulthood, which started create some problems. Can you talk a little bit about that? Take us back in history a little bit and bring us to the present day. Because I feel like in this conversation we're going to have a. Another conversation. Like things are changing again with what it is to be masculine, what it is to be a man. And there are a whole lot of misconceptions about it. But let's start at the beginning, but with some of Dr. Glover's work and what you found to be true about it.

Jason Lange: Totally, yes. I do a lot of work with so called nice guys, which I consider myself. And I don't use that in a pejorative sense. Right. Like there's. There's a lot of positive two nice guys, which I can get into. The kind of cultural evolution you're pointing to I first read about in the work of Robert Bly, who wrote Aaron John. He was actually kind of one of the real forefathers of the men's movement back in the 90s, like just really starting to speak to, hey, something is happening here and we're not putting enough attention on it. It was that shift into industrialized cultures, really, which made this huge shift where dad goes away to the factory and works all day. And eventually the whole kind of school system was born and kids are going to get sent off and sit in school all day. That was a tremendous shift for a large part of human history. It manifests differently in different cultures around the world. But there were some general themes that many cultures, some of which still do to this day, would have this trajectory. For the first years of his life, a boy was raised by moms and aunts and uncles and fathers were around and that was totally normal. But then usually between the age of kind of 8 to 13, at some point there would actually be an intentional shift. You know, this is quite literal in some cultures and tribes, a rite of passage. The men literally come and take the boy away from mom and take him out on a challenge or expedition. A hardship in a sense, where he marks the transition to manhood. But in another sense, that would often be where dad would take you and start to introduce you to a trade, his work in the fields, his craft or whatever that might be. And in the process, you start spending more time with your father, with the uncles, with the men around you. You get to see how they interact with other men in the community, how they deal with conflict. All of these things are incredibly important for young Boys to mark this transition of like, hey, there's a big shift happening here. But that all changed really fast. Once dad was going away all day, he was left with mom a lot of the time, maybe some older siblings or whatever that might be. And then eventually it was kind of shoved in a school system which initially did have a lot more female teachers. And so there's generations of boys that were raised by women and never had that handoff, so to speak, to be taught the ways of the man, whatever that might mean in your culture. And that's had a significant shift along with just the idea of the school system, boys in particular. Kinesthetic learning is a big deal. We're meant to be in our bodies and moving. Boys tend to have a lot of energy and need to move their bodies, get messy, and use their hands. The kind of industrialized school system was, hey, sit at a desk for eight hours and don't move. And that's particularly hard, I think, on boys in some sense. And we're seeing some of that catch up and start to change, thankfully, globally in the culture. But the process of that, you know, along with another cultural thing I'll just point to here, because they dovetail into this nice guy thing pretty heavily, is one of the major challenges a lot of men I work with, and myself included, have had. There's a lot of talk about what men are not supposed to be, toxic masculinity. And this is bad, this is bad, this is bad. There is not much focus on, well, then, what should we be? What's healthy? What's the role model? What's the positivity for us in our culture to move towards, in a sense. And that same generation of men, partly because they got to know their mothers and be raised by women in some sense, and just because of how clearly things surfaced in our culture, saw that this old archetype of the man, what I call the big three, they can call it the macho jerk or the my way or the highway guy. This is a man whose primary focus is just on himself, and he'll do what it takes to. To get what he wants. There's a lot of power in that often. But those men in particular can sometimes be disconnected from their hearts and thus cause a lot of damage along the way, Whether that's environmental damage, relational damage, taking advantage of women, harming others, abusing the financial system, whatever. Over the last decades, we've seen a lot of that stuff come up through the cracks of, wow, there are some pretty brutal things in particular that men are Often at the spearhead of it's not to say all men are bad, but a certain type of man, this kind of macho jerk is what I would call it, or disconnected from his heart man. So there's a whole generation of guys who grew up seeing that and many men I work with literally experiencing it possibly through an abusive or volatile father. And they see that and they're like, whoa, I do not want to be that. I have no desire to be like that. And what that did was create a pendulum shift to ah, not that, not that. And that's one of the other origin stories of the nice guy is a man who is aware enough to say, I don't want to be a man who causes harm. Whether that's through my sexuality, my relationships, my relationship to the environment. Like there's all kinds of things. There's, there's a coming online of the sensitivity of the heart and that's a very positive thing in a lot of ways. The problem with nice guys and the birth of this in a sense is it's a bit of an overcorrection where there's this idea of a nice guy who's constantly putting others needs above his own, struggles to set boundaries, struggles to own what he wants to be in connection with his desire, whether that's sexual or anything else in the world. And to just be okay with it, to be okay with conflict, to say, hey, I want this and you don't want this or the way you're talking to me is not okay. Those are often really big challenges for so called nice guys that don't want to upset anyone, we don't want to make anyone uncomfortable, we don't want to be like those other guys. And all of this is kind of right constellated in our culture too. There's a lot of men that fall into this category now in are not sure how to get by in the world because they're like, hey, I don't want to be like that. And yet I'm trying to be this nice, caring guy and I am suffering. I'm not getting the experiences I want in relationship, I'm not respected in my job, or I just don't feel empowered in my life. And that's not where all men are at these days. But a good chunk of men are like, hey, well then what do I need to be next? As with most things I say, one of the big prescriptions for that is getting a men's group and you can start to experience some of what else is possible.

Host: I certainly have done enough work on myself to know that I spent my childhood trying to fly under the radar, everybody's radar, and just, just get by. Do what you needed to do to be out of sight, out of mind. No one would bug you. And that would let me go out and ride my skateboard. As much as I wanted into adulthood, that translated into mediocrity, just going with the flow. And like you said, those boundaries, not wanting to rock the boat. So it's like, okay, cool. I'm not going to complain too loud if someone crosses, you know, something that would typically really frustrate me. I'm not going to vocalize it. And that's something I really want to get into. How to find the best men's group. Because I did start exploring that. It's kind of like finding the right therapist. You have to go through a few and it's easy to find therapists. You can just do a Google search. But I feel like it's a little harder to find a men's group that is not connected with a church or some other institution that maybe doesn't like, reflect exactly your philosophy. So would love to talk a little bit about that and, and how someone who realizes, hey, I need more male influence in my life. I need some older male influence. I need to see what the young dudes are up to nowadays. How should I go about even looking for that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's a great question. And we're right on the edge of this entering the mainstream in the sense that that's going to be a lot easier because it is. It's just growing and it's growing because men need it and men are wanting it and men are missing that kind of connection. Because in addition to everything we've talked about, there's just so many societal changes. Particularly, you know, I'm here in the States and there's this kind of cultural drive towards suburban privatization. Just everything's separate. Let's just all be in our own computers. On social media, there is an actual force, in a sense, doing that that has disrupted a lot of communal and public spaces where people get to know each other. Lots of men I work with, work from home now. They don't even have an office to get lunch with co workers or go out to the bar afterwards or whatever that might be. So there's this growing need for community. Right. To actual interaction. And I think that's one of the gaps that men's groups are really filling for a lot of guys. And so where to look like you're totally right. I often explain this like, you know, just like we could say, hey, let's learn to meditate. It's like, what kind of meditation. There's a endless variety of schools and lineages and thoughts. Men's groups are the same way in terms of. There's a lot of different things that men's group can mean. For some groups, it's an accountability group. You. You want some help bringing something to life, creating something, moving something forward. It can be a practice group, which is men get together to do embodiment practices and deepen themselves. It can be a support group. Right of, yeah, we're really just coming in and we're kind of sharing what's going on in our life. And it can be a mix of any and all of that in there. Finding a group is like dating in a sense in that you, you want to try it out. You know, most, a lot of groups will have an ability for you to drop in or check it out. These days you can do search, you know, Google searches in your area, particularly if you're in a bigger city. You know, men's groups near me. Meetup.com is a really good one for sometimes finding men's groups. You know, the other thing that's radically changing right now is although it's amazing when you can be meat space with someone and have that physical aspect to a group, zoom is really unlocking quite a bit in terms of allowing groups to connect virtually, particularly for men that are in areas of the world or the country where they don't really have access. Right. I got lucky spending my 20s in Boulder, Colorado and then Los Angeles. It was like whatever I wanted to do was there, like in this kind of world. But a lot of men I work with are. They're out in the middle of nowhere. And like, what are you talking about? There's no men's groups by me.

Host: You know, that brings up something I wanted to kind of touch on because as a man, sometimes I would imagine, and maybe it's getting better, but even the thought or the word men's group has a connotation that is like, well, I would only go to a men's group if I've got something wrong with me, like if I need to go to AA or if I need to talk about some issue. Back in the day, like 20, 30, maybe 40 years ago, if you wanted to join a quote, air quotes men's group, you joined a bowling league or you went out golfing with your buddies. That's what people thought. Oh, yeah, I hang out with the dudes, I'm at the bar, or as Cheers, right. That, that TV show where is just these dudes hanging around and talking about life, wax and philosophical at the bar. And that was their idea of a men's group. But on the far other end of that is something like, you know the movie Fight Club, where, okay, I'm going to go to the men's group. But it's, it's all about the, the extreme of what everybody thinks a man is supposed to do is just be brutal and, you know, defend his own. Whatever they were doing in that movie, I love that movie, but it's a little cartoonish in the sense of what is trying to get across. But somewhere in the middle of all of that are these men's group. And like you're saying they're not necessarily there for some specific kind of support. It can be really generalized. So let's say someone is just, they're listening to our conversation right now and they're thinking, okay, I'm one of those people who thought men's group, like, that's only if I got a substance abuse problem and, and I need that kind of support or if I got something going on in my relationship that I just need some awareness around. What. How do we make those people feel a little bit better about looking out on a meetup.com and what are they looking for that's going to keep them in their comfort zone? Just enough to step just on the other side of the comfort zone.

Jason Lange: Yeah, this is, this is a great question because it, it's also pointing to a deeper paradigm shift that a lot of men, whether it's men's group therapy. Oh, that's only for. Only people who have something wrong with them do that. And, you know, I just heard this the other day, but it's a new story I like where it's like, actually it's people who don't go to therapy and stuff, they're the ones that have something wrong with them in a sense. Like. And what I mean by that is I think most men could certainly agree it's like, you don't just exercise when there's something wrong with your body. You exercise to keep it healthy and to keep growing. Right? So your body, your literally your muscles, they will only grow if they're put under stress. Right? So we have to go work out. We actually have to go challenge our bodies. That doesn't mean you're unhealthy. You're actually doing that to continue to promote health. And I would say men's Group and therapy, frankly, are a version of that. That it's just like, you got to work out your body, you got to work out your heart, and you got to work out your mind, your mindset, and realize, hey, some of these habits I've built up aren't necessarily the healthiest. They're not the best. And the idea here is, yeah, sometimes we have to go to these things because something is really going wrong in our life, or we have an acute illness of some kind, right, and we go get fixed. Other times it's like, no, I want to keep myself healthy, so I'm going to keep working myself out to grow and deepen. And so men's group is really about that. It's about taking control of our life and bringing more intention to it, right? What am I doing? What do I want to be doing? Why am I doing it? What gets in the way? These questions that a lot of men, until they have some kind of big life event or midlife crisis, don't pause to ask themselves. A lot of guys step onto the conveyor belt of life, of, oh, this is what you're supposed to do, da, da, da, get a job, da, da, da, da, get married, whatever that might be. And they've never actually slowed down to really get in contact with, well, what's going on for me, how do I feel about this? What do I want? So men's group can be a place to do that, where it can help us get clearer about what we want in life, what's working for us, what's not working for us, and what our trajectory is, in a sense. And the power of that is what I've seen in my. My own life, James, and many men I've worked with is the guys I know in men's group, they make more money, they have better relationships, they're happier in life. Like, things get better. They don't get easier, as I say, but they get better, like, because we're bringing more consciousness to the things that are most important to us. So I think it's the shift in a sense of, you know, a men's group, it's about, like, training yourself. It's about getting the training we need to effectively deal with life and to have a plan and kind of move towards it and then to build a team around you. This is the other thing, you know, I experienced in my life and now so passionate about is particularly here in the States. You know, we're fed this garbage myth of the the lone wolf, the rugged cowboy, the hyper, individualistic man. Who picks himself up by the bootstraps and does it all alone. Never shows weakness, is always tough. Right? And the truth is, it doesn't work. There is a whole swath of men that are dying at the bottom of bottle, that are depressed and on medications that have autoimmune disorders just flooding through them. Like, it's romantic to visualize that kind of ideal, but it's not actually how it works. And even in nature, as I say, right, the lone wolf is the one that was kicked out of the pack. And that wolf does not live as long. It will die faster than the one that is part of the collective. That doesn't mean, oh, my God, I just, I can't do anything on my own. But it means real resiliency in life is built up through community. Right? And I think that's one of the things that a lot of men are discovering of, wow. Trying to do it on my own for someone is literally killing them through stress, through lack of connection. And a men's group is a way to bring more resiliency to that system where we have somewhere to go when things aren't working, where we can be held, in a sense, in our pain. And then once we get resourced, we can go back out and we can deal with it. Particularly knowing we have some brothers behind us who are on our team. They want us to succeed. That's, you know, one of the great things about a group. So there is a mindset shift, right? The mindset shift is, no, I don't go to this if there's something wrong with me. I go to this because I want to live the most kick ass life I can. And I need some support in doing that because if I could do it on my own, I already would have done that. Right? My life would be perfect. Totally. But we all need a little reflection, a little guidance and just support around us. So for guys, you know, looking you. You want to try things out. If you can do a drop in for a group and just get an experience of it, that's great. A lot of times you can, you know, go on Instagram or this kind of world now and just search for men's groups and you'll start to find teachers and people who are facilitating and, you know, get to know them a little bit and see like, oh, yeah, that feel. I feel like a yes to this. Okay, I'm gonna try it out. That worked kind of just like a therapist or I feel like a no to that one, but a yes to this one. And you kind of Want to dabble around to get some experiences. You can also, you know, before fully committing to a group, you can just start doing some men's work, which is really just this broad term for men getting together to do transformational work, right? To get to know themselves more, to become more embodied, to become more in present, to get more clarity on their power, their purpose and their presence in life. And then in doing that, you'll start to meet some other guys who might be in groups who might already be doing things, et cetera. And then, you know, the last thing I'll just share is this is something I'm particularly passionate about and working towards really supporting men in, is you can always start your own. So if you're. If you're somewhere in life and you're like, wow, there's. I don't have any men around me, and this is painful and I need to find them, that is a huge clue that there is almost certainly other men near you, in your vicinity or community that are probably feeling that same pain as you. And there's a real leadership opportunity there to kind of call things to order. Say, hey, to. To identify a few guys from work or in your community or in your network of like, maybe friends you already have. This doesn't have to, you know, start super complicated of just like, hey, I. I'd love to get together sometime the next month. It might just be two or three of, you know, and just, you know, spend two hours talking about our lives and getting real. That's it. Right? Last thing I'll just note is the big shift here you kind of spoke towards was a lot of men by default, whether it's sports or activities or old social clubs, they relate via what I call triangulation. So it's me and it's you. And we build connection with each other by having our attention on a third thing. Game and activity, movies, you know, whatever it is. So when we're spending time with each other, and you'll often see this with men, clearly we're not looking at each other. We're focused on something.

Host: Right. Like fishing.

Jason Lange: Like fishing, exactly. And it's a beautiful way for men to blonde. So I'm not saying there's not a time and place for that. What I'm saying is all we want to add to some extent to the mix is sometime where as men, we're turning to face each other, we're actually putting our attention on each other. And that's really kind of what a men's group is. It's. We're Putting our attention on each other and saying yeah, rather than just kind of hanging out, we maybe sometimes have conversations. We're bringing a little bit of consciousness to why are we getting together right now where we're getting together? Because we all want to be the most kick ass men we can be and we need help and feedback and support along that way. And just being the one to plant that flag can be really transformational. Right, right. I've had many men who just, yeah, they, they, they have an intuition about a friend or two, they pull em together and then they start meeting and you know, again, sometimes men come in with some skepticism. But it's pretty incredible to me that once a man is given the space where people, where other guys in particular are actually paying attention and they're allowed to talk. Most men have a lot they need to get out, they're holding a lot and suddenly the floodgates come out and they're like, wow, wow. Or you know, I was just in, in one of the calls with some of my clients last night and a guy shared this and I've heard it many times of like, yeah, you know, since getting into this, like I had to drive just blah, blah, blah with my brother and we spent like two hours together and I ended up talking to him, like really talking to him. And I feel like I got to know him more in that two hours than I've known him in my whole life. Like we're connected in a different way now because we actually started to talk about what's going on in our lives. And so it's this capacity, whether you're an official group or not, to, to, to drop in more deeply with other men.

Host: Yeah. And I, based on that, I want to really. I'd love for you to draw a distinction on something that I've noticed over the last several years actually. And I don't know if I've just noticed it more because of the prevalence of social media, but what we're talking about here is men's group where you would go and you would talk to relate. With men, the masculine energy is like you said, with the triangulation, it's, it's not always as relational as it is about results. My point here is I've noticed this trend on Instagram, Facebook, mostly Instagram. Maybe it's because I get targeted with this, but it's these coaches, gurus who are trying to give men the hey, here are the five things you need to know to be the, the most man ass man you can be. You know, and it Usually has something to do with women. And I feel like it's targeted at men who maybe don't have a steady relationship or haven't had success in that realm of their lives. And it always kind of follows the same sort of quote, fake alpha male prototype. And I want to really just do. Because men, it's easy for us to fall in that trap. We want the seven step. Yeah, just give me the seven steps. I'll, I'll hit those seven steps, I'll check the boxes and then if you're telling me, I'll be happy, cool, I'm going to go do it. And if you, if you gave them that or the choice of, hey, come to this men's group for a couple months, it might be, you know, something that will open up your eyes. They'd be, they think I'm looking at that seven step thing, that's going to get me there faster. And while it may be a lot of empty promises, it may not even work for them. And it's certainly the lone wolf model because they, they've got this recipe that they're supposed to go figure out on their own. What is your sense of this new culture of coaches telling men how they need, you know, do 100 push ups a day, do whatever it is that I, I see so many similarities with all of them, but what's your take on that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'd say on the one hand, like we talked about a lot of guys, there's just an incredible hunger for guidance, like actual mentorship. Someone who's like in your corner saying, hey, I want you to succeed and I want to help you. And I talk about this in, in my podcast, but I kind of label this, this is my take. But the father energy we all need is kind of how I say it. And to me, the most pure kind of fatherly energy there is, whether it's coming from a man or a woman, doesn't really matter, but it's about that kind of side of the coin is, hey, whatever's going on, let's figure it out together. So it's this idea of, I'm going to jump in there with you. It's like, oh, that didn't work. Let's try this. That didn't work. Let's try this. What did you learn about that? Okay, that's okay. So there's like a space for things not working, but then there's a someone there helping you figure it out. And many men, myself included, never had that. So I was moving through the world, not sure how to do stuff falling on my face sometimes. And then after you have a few experiences, you know, of it not going well, it's like my body tightened up, and I was so afraid to do anything, like, to really live boldly or take action because I didn't feel safe, that if I failed, I'd be able to figure it out or do better or, you know, whatever that might be. But another man, whether he's our father or not, joining us in that and saying, like, oh, hey, you tried that, and. And, wow, that didn't work, did it? But what can we learn from that? What can we do different next time? Men are so hungry for that, and there's a lot of research that's really quite moving that for. For young boys in particular, all it often takes is one interaction of this kind can radically change the trajectory of a man's life. Meaning it doesn't even have to be a father, per se, but it can in the best of times. It's like a sports coach or a teacher or an uncle or someone who just steps in and says, hey, I give a shit what's going on? What do you want? How can I help you? There's nothing wrong with you. You just need to learn here, right? And there's like, oh, okay, that makes a difference. You know, I don't know the etymology here, but it doesn't surprise me that, right. Mentor has the word men in it. Like, men, we really crave someone guiding us deeper into our lives, right? We do want the instruction manual. We're like, I want to win. I want to be a great man. I want to serve my family, my community, but I don't know how. So I think some of that is speaking to this huge vacuum that has existed in our culture of this positive masculine role modeling. In a sense, we don't have to get into it now, but that kind of more red pill culture has kind of taken advantage of that. And seeing there's a lot of really young boys that are hungry for something, and they give them this kind of, you know, caveman version of it, I would argue. And the other thing I'll dovetail with is, like I said, for a lot of men, pain around relationships is so strong that that's often one of the avenues you can kind of hook men in. And in a weird way, you know, when I was in my 20s, in the 2000s, is when the game came out and pickup culture really exploded. So it was all these strategies and teachings and techniques for how you can get women to sleep with you, essentially. And a lot of it was quite gross. But inside of that were some of the kernels of the first time men experienced mentorship, community and growth. And so not everyone was like that in there, but there, you know, there were some actually great teachers within that space. But it, it, a lot of men were going to that because there was nothing else. And now that the healthier manifestations are showing up, I, I think there's more options in a sense because, you know, yeah, you want to be in a long term relationship, you kind of want some mentorship with some men who have done it right, who are actually in thriving partnerships or doing well or some sense. And some of these gurus, not all of them just aren't there, right? They can teach about dating, but they've never been in a healthy long term relationship in their life because they wouldn't know what to do, you know, if they were or have their own attachment trauma or wounding that come up. So, you know, I tend to be pretty generous in a sense with understanding why people are pulled to it, but that then runs flat into, yeah, you know, Instagram, social media, it's, it's all quick fix culture. Like just, yes, do these seven things and your life will be better. It's like, no, it's way more complex than that. And the, you know, the downside, I think that particularly a lot of us guys and you know, I love it, like, I love podcasting stuff, but many men I see get trapped in is the information trap. I'm just going to listen to more, learn more, observe more, read another book. Yeah, right. I'm just going to keep absorbing, keep absorbing, keep absorbing. If I just learn this other thing, then I'll be happy or then I'll be free. Whereas information does not necessarily correlate to transformation. And that's where having a coach, a men's group, a therapist, someone who really gets in there with you to hold you accountable of like, okay, so you're learning all this, but how is your life changing? Where are you embodying it in your day to day decisions? And Instagram can't do that, right? Instagram doesn't want to talk about that. Even, you know, kind of personal growth culture like I'm involved in, it's like, yeah, come to this weekend and your life will change. And I constantly have to burst the bubble that it's like, yeah, the retreat, the medicine ceremony, whatever it is. That's the easy part, I'm telling you. That's the easy part. You can come in, tell you what to do. You feel so empowered. I'm so strong. And then you get home on Tuesday.

Host: Morning, go back to your sad, miserable.

Jason Lange: Life, and something doesn't go right, and you crash right back in. That is where the work really begins. And to me, that's why a men's group in particular is so potent, because it's woven in. As I say, my experience in groups is it's like a heartbeat. Every other week, I'm dropping in with my men, really getting a sense of where am I at? And there's no escape. It's based on, like, what's happened in my life the last 10 days. I had a fight with my wife, or I didn't know how to deal with this with my kid, or I'm under this financial stress. And that's where we really start to make these choices. I would say that can really transform us. So, you know, it takes work to grow and change. And I think community is one of the things I certainly experienced. You know, in a sense, my rebellion here is, you know, part of my mission statement is every man should be in a men's group. I'm like, if every man was in a men's group, I think the world would get a lot better. A lot of the awful shit we see men do, I think it can be traced to isolation, loneliness, looking another man in the eye and saying, hey, I believe in you. You can do better than this, right? Like, there's the. You know, it's the. It's the kind of spinach in the tea thing of, like, it can sometimes be intense to take in, but most guys I know are actually longing for someone to give them honest feedback from a loving place of, hey, how you're treating that woman, that's not good, man. Like, are you in? Are you out? Because I know you're better than this. Or, you know, whatever it is like that calling forward to be the best version of ourselves is what the world needs so much of for men right now. And women can't do that part for us. That's the honest truth. I think part of what we're stepping into here is it's us men that need to start calling forward other men, not tearing them down, but saying, hey, man, you're missing some of the picture here. And I know there's more inside of you, and let's. Let's figure it out, right? Let's figure it out together. Like, let's get on this train.

Host: That's good stuff. I want to talk about now, kind of where this train is headed, because tell Me if I'm wrong. But anyone who maybe is conscious enough about their own personal growth, who may be looking for a men's group right now, likely somewhere between 30 and 60. Are those the numbers that. Okay, I just pulled those out of my back pocket. So if you've got tighter numbers, would love to hear them. But anyone 30 to, I would say probably 40 to 60 was, was from that generation. They were kind of raised with a set of parents, set of grandparents who gave us a very specific idea, masculinity, what a man was. And boys don't cry. And you know, you work hard, you provide and you do XYZ number of things. And now it almost feels like, and this is what I want to get your opinion on, it almost feels like that pendulum, just like you said, the pendulum between the, the toxic guys and the nice guys. Feels like that pendulum shifting. And I saw a meme that kind of perfectly described it the other day. It said, you know, when I was a kid, I imagine 20, 24, we'd have flying cars, not 72 different genders. And I'm just wondering how all of the talk around, whatever they call wokeness is going to affect the work that you're trying to do now. Get men to embrace their true nature. Not toxic, not negative, not, not positive. Just your true nature and understand how to bring it into the world. Because you can't fight nature. I mean, nature is nature and every time we've tried to fight it, we lose, essentially.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: So where do you see this train headed?

Jason Lange: Great places in my mind.

Host: Okay, good.

Jason Lange: You know, the trajectory, the work I do, I do under the umbrella evolutionary men. Right. And the idea of evolution is we take the best of what was and then we include it in something new. Right. So we transcend and include. So we want to take the. Actually the best of the macho jerk, which is a man who can set boundaries, is connected to what he wants, moves towards the things he wants to move towards, can be fierce when he needs to be fierce. And we want to integrate it right, with the nice guy, the man who's deeply attuned and sensitive to his impact around the world around him, who takes other people's feelings into account and their well being. And we want to kind of keep growing that in a sense. So evolutionary men is like. It's this idea, what we're trying to do is kind of. There's this idea, James, of the man box, right. It's this term that was popularized by a coach out in Oakland. And the man box is basically the box, the parameters of to be a man, you have to do these things, and if you are outside of that box, you're not a man. And so it's like a checklist, and it changes a little bit from culture to culture. But you're right, there's some pretty big things of don't show weakness, don't cry, always work hard, never ask for help. For a lot of men, you know, it might sound a little crass here, but you should try to sleep with any woman who will sleep with you. And if you don't sleep with her, you're not a man. Right. Because that's what men do. They try to have sex with everyone. There's all kinds of ways this manifests, and we're burst in that bubble. And what I say is, you know, there's always going to be a framework, per se, but rather than it being a box, like, what's the foundation? What's the foundation for healthy manhood? Masculinity that then can look like all kinds of things. And part of what's so complex right now is all these old stereotypes are falling apart. They're not enough, Right? Yeah. The man, da, da, da, he provides, doesn't work anymore. Many women are like, I don't need you to provide for me. I make more money than you. Like, why? Why would I need you to do that? It's very common. And for a lot of men I work with, they're like, fuck them. What do I do? What do.

Host: Yeah, who am I?

Host: That's good. So if someone's listening right now and they want to learn more about what you do, more about your work, maybe see what workshops and programs you offer, what's the best way to get in touch?

Jason Lange: Totally. If you just go to my website, Evolutionary Men. So it's not dot com, it's Do Men. You can see all my programs, workshops, blogs, podcasts. I have my own show and just kind of take. Tune in. And again, I might be your vibe, I might not be your vibe. That's totally fine. But no, keep dialing in the radio to find someone that is your vibe to maybe call a group like this in. Because partly why I'm such a big proponent of this is it's changed my life. I cannot imagine having gone through the last 20 years of my life without a men's group. And in fact, I have many men's groups now that have had me through some of the most challenging moments in my life that I know I would not been able to show up the same way in without those men. And it allows me to be bold in the world because suddenly I don't have to be everyone's best friend. Right. I know who I want my best friends to be and they know who I am and I trust their feedback a lot more than strangers in a sense. Right. That if they're like, hey, you're being an I listen to them because they know me.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: They know what I'm up to. Which in this Internet connected age, not everybody online does. So yeah, you can go to Evolutionary Men and yeah, just check it out.

Host: All right, Jason, thank you so much for sharing your perspective and giving us so much info today we can take action on. It's like you said, taking action and growth is very different from just getting all the information possible. So if you're listening to this, whether you're male or female, if you've got a guy in your life you think could use this information, get it to him and maybe he'll take some action on it and have some growth because of it. So thank you again. Really appreciate it.

Jason Lange: Yeah. So great. Thanks for having me. Jim. Jason Lange: Sa. Sat.