Masculinity Evolved : Integrating Strength and Sensitivity w/ Jason Lange | The Personal Transformation Podcast with Dan Storey

Host: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Personal Transformation Podcast. My name is Dan Storie, and today I'm joined by men's embodiment coach and facilitator Jason Lange. Now, we're going to have a conversation about masculinity. Now, immediately, if you're a female listening to this, you're thinking, right, Skip Next, let's get on to the next episode. If you're listening to this is the latest, then, sorry, this is the latest episode, so you're stuck. But I want to make this hyper relevant for you, both for men and for women, because I saw a post this morning on Instagram which is a man interviewing a woman, and he said to her, so, are you married? And she said, yeah, like, happily. And then the next question was really interesting, which was, is he happy? And the woman says, I thought you're going to ask me if I'm happy. So, no, is he happy? And it stopped her in the tracks. And I think there's a general disconnect between what men want, need, what masculinity is, what that nine means to so many people, and how that's viewed both by men and by women. And so Jason's here to help us break some of those myths, help expose some of the conversations around masculinity and what that really means to be a man these days. But this is going to be a topic for both men and women to dive into. So, Jason, welcome to the show.

Jason Lange: Yeah. So stoked to be here. Thanks for having me.

Host: Masculinity is such a charged word. Right. It's almost to the point where it's scary to be a man these days. We have to be apologetic for some of the elements that come in. And political correctness has gone absolutely crazy where some of the things that we do naturally as men are now starting to be vilified. Now, I'm not saying that everything that men do is right. Far from it. This podcast is all about how we screw things up royally on a regular basis. Not just mental health, but people in general. So I'm not trying to say that men are perfect, because we absolutely are not, but we need to figure out what masculinity is and what it's not. So that's kind of what I want us to talk about. And then ultimately, some of the strategies that, you know, me as a man, how can I step more into masculinity in a way that is socially acceptable but also gives me everything that I need? So let's talk about that. Let's. Let's Start off, what is masculinity?

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's such a great question, right? We can go pretty deep on this. The first thing I'll say is there is so much baggage attached to these terms. So for those that feel that baggage, you don't even have to use the term masculine, right? So masculinity and femininity, as we often talk about them, they're just words and representations of primal energies in the universe that just so happen to manifest in these specific forms. So we've all, many of us have heard of yin and yang. There's masculine, feminine. Some teachers I know say alpha and omega. There's go and there's flow, there's feeling, there's perspective, and there's. And honestly, the most primal version of this polarity. There is. There is life and there is death. And so masculine and feminine actually kind of in a lot of ways, are born out of that. So we all, no matter what kind of body we're in, no matter who, what we're identified with, we have both of these capacities within us. We have the capacity to witness our experience, and we have the capacity to be in our experience. That's really it, right? And as a man, I have a lot of feminine energy inside of us. We all do. Many women these days have a lot of masculine capacity inside of them. Now, part of what's happening in our world right now is it used to be partly because of biology and necessity, if you were born in a women's body, you were expected to act these certain ways. You were born in a man's body, you were expected to act certain ways. And that served us, you know, as humans for a time. But the big growth, right, of the last hundred years is we're starting to liberate from that meaning. Just because you were born in a certain body does not mean you. You have to be associated primarily with a certain energy. That is a great thing. In my mind, this is extremely good for everyone on the traditional sides, right? Women, the feminine, are now allowed to come out into the world and have their own desires and goals and careers and things they want where they're not totally reliant, right, On a man to take care of them financially, physically, et cetera. That is awesome because that actually frees women up from some pretty terrible situations. And on the flip side, what we've been discovering is, right, part of the work I do is, hey, as men, we're allowed to feel, to have interiors, to not always be executing and going, but we can restore and enjoy and be in Our bodies. And this is great on both ends. It has created some challenges, right? Because now we're like, well, we used to have this paradigm of, well, men do this and women do that. And that worked and still works for certain people, but particularly those I think, that get on the growth path, it starts to fall apart. And a lot of challenges. I work with men around, are around dating and relationships. And in terms of, wow, it used to be if I just did this, I could have a thriving relationship. It's not the case anymore. There's so much more being asked of us as men to bring to the table. And so, paradoxically, as we now have more, everybody has more access to these different energies. We actually have to be more conscious about how we use them. And this the term for this, right? There's this whole body of work called polarity work, which is, right, just working with the energy of how do these two energies interact? And when they're different, no matter who's playing which role, it tends to create an arc of attraction and closeness. When they're the same, at best, it creates neutrality. At worst, it actually creates repulsion. We actually push each other away. So being able to consciously wield these energies is big. And so for us men to learn, okay, well, what is this healthy masculine energy I can start to bring forward? That is not the old macho jerk my way or the highway. I take what I want. I don't care about the impact on others. And. Right. This is part of the reckoning we've been under for the last couple decades. That, yeah, there is a large, long history of men in particular being disconnected from their hearts and hurting people and the environment around them. That's changing, thankfully. But that's not all. Masculinity is so right. We don't want to throw away the baby with the bath water. And so a lot of guys I work with, right, they're like, I don't want to be that. I don't want to be the macho jerk. I don't want to be that dickhead. I don't want to be the one who takes advantage of women or people. So there was kind of a pendulum swing to what we would kind of call and what I coach a lot of guys around the nice guy. So I'm going to play it really safe. I'm actually super attuned to other people. Often I disconnect and sometimes even have shame about my sexuality, my desire, my anger. I have a hard time setting boundaries. I just want to be really friendly. And that guy is Actually evolutionarily a huge leap forward. So this is something a lot of people get wrong. Like, that is an awesome place to be if you're a man, because you're not causing as much harm in the world. But those guys then hit a limit of sometimes they feel taken advantage of. They're not getting what they want in life. They aren't creating thriving relationships. So the work these days is okay, how do we integrate it all together to be a healthy modern man that quite simply is connected to our bodies, our power, our desires, our sexuality, our ability to set boundaries and say no. But is also deeply attuned, open and sensitive in our hearts, connected to people around us, connected to the environment, and able to tune into what's the most important thing I could be focusing on in any given moment to create more depth, connection, love, trust in the world, in a sense. And we do not have a lot of modeling for that as men. There's very, very little modeling for what it means to be a powerful man that is still an emotional man. Right. Most guys see one or the other. They see a guy who is just iron but has no feeling or who often collapses into feeling or even reactivity, right. Explodes into anger. The, the, the funny thing about that is that is not at all masculine.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: When we are just raging, that is not masculine. Masculine energy in the way we're talking about that anyone can cultivate but us men in particular, it's very grounded. It's often quite still. It moves with intention, you can start to feel. And it tends to actually regulate the nervous systems of people around it. So right when we're really holding. Masculine presence tends to actually calm everyone down around us. It creates safety in a pretty significant way.

Host: Yeah, let me, let me jump in. That was a, that was the. One of the most comprehensive definitions and explanations of masculinity that I've heard in a long time. And, you know, I, I remember the first time I read the book the Way of the Superior man by David Data. This is a while ago and I've referred it to people. And if you put off by the title, get over it, because it's about polarity. It's, you know, whether you, like you said, masculine, feminine, alpha, omega, whatever you call it, polarity is attraction. And the, the challenge that I see, and, and I think you're right is, is, you know, historically we've been hyper masculine. Even people who haven't wanted to be masculine have been pushed into that because you have to be a man, blah, blah, blah. Now we've Seen this entire pivot the other way, which is, you know, be in touch with your feelings, all those kind of things, and absolutely fine. And that in itself is creating tension and anxiety because we now have this disconnect from who we are socially supposed to be. You know, we feel that we're supposed to be. And like you say, there's no role models, not really for this middle space. I think it's going to be interesting to, to kind of talk about that a little bit. At the moment you talk about polarity. So polarity is really important. You have to have a go with masculine and feminine, just easier. But you have to have a masculine energy versus a feminine energy in a relationship for it to work. You have to. That polarity is required, but it doesn't have to be the same all the time. So let me give you a situation and see how you get on. So historically I've, you know, I'm married, we're coming up to eight years, something like that should do my maths a little bit faster. But one low cost. Historically, I've been, you know, the, the breadwinner. I've had the, the salary and kind of been in charge. And my wife went on maternity. We've got now a four and a half year old daughter who's amazing. And now we've switched roles, actually. She's now stepped back into her career and I've taken a little bit of a backwards step to do a little bit more at home. And now I'm trying to figure out what my role is. And actually with that element of my personality taken away, I feel that has challenged my energy levels. Whether you call it masculinity or not, there's definitely an energy shift in me. And you mentioned things like being angry and disconnected and things. I feel that, like, I can completely feel that. My question to you is, given that there's this scenario is. And I don't want to become hyper masculine, I don't need to step in and be chest beating. You know, I do the bodybuilding and things. That's not as a masculine thing, that's as a personal venting thing. But how do we create polarity? How do we create clarity in a world where, like you say, women in a heterosexual relationship and apply it to whatever your setup is, but women are being pushed into masculine without me going into feminine and kind of conceding and being the nice guy completely. How do we maintain a polarity in a relationship where there's kind of both sides of being pushed to kind of go and accomplish Things, Absolutely.

Host: So here's an interesting one. And we mentioned the name Andrew Tate before this. And my nephew has, you know, I remember about six months ago, he was talking to me, oh, this is guy Andrew Tay. And he's like a man expert. And, you know, he's telling all Men to do these things and there's definitely like a toxic space there. And you said like, you know, is, there's, there's a void, there's a, there's a need for more masculinity, you know, in a way that we're talking about right now, but isn't being made available. And so there's this void of just being toxic masculine and going over a top masculine. What you're saying is there's a reliance on the female. Again, I'm just going heterosexual relationship. There's a reliance on the female to make space for that. There's a reliance on an understanding for, for that to happen. And yet many women don't do that. We kind of go back to the point earlier. It's like, you know, is your husband happy? It's like, like to actually face up to that. So is it possible for men to be masculine without their partner, wife, whatever, also playing a part in it? Or is this something we can do on our own that is a bit more healthier than say the toxic masculine groups?

Jason Lange: Yeah, that, that would be kind of what I pointed to of, you know, there's things you can do independently of your partner. So grounding and regulating your nervous system would be probably element number one. So that means. Yeah, what's, what are you actually feeling inside of you? One thing a lot of men get wrong is the purest version of the masculine we're talking about here. It is actually quite relaxed. It is not a braced pushing energy. Right. That real masculine energy is just here.

Host: I'm thinking Mufasa in.

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah, there you go.

Host: My daughter's in Lion King. We watched it the other day. But, but it's that, it's. I, I've got it if I need it. I'm not going to use it all the time, but if you try and mess with me, I'm gonna, I'm gonna mess you up.

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. But, but point being, a lot of men are actually walking around with an incredible amount of tension in their bodies, in their hearts, and have an almost non stop ruminating mind just thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking thoughts, right? Because they're constantly changing. Lo and behold. Thoughts are also more associated with the feminine. So if we're, if our attention is on our inner thought process, guess what? We're not being, we're not showing up as the masculine in the moment.

Host: But we also, this is the other thing, we're told to talk about our thoughts and feelings that we need to be expressive like you said. You know, you mentioned this idea of the lone wolf. Because this is the challenge is okay, now I have my thoughts and feelings. I've tried talking to my wife once, maybe twice about it never goes well because it's always. But it like that's because the lack of clarity, that's because the polarity just disappears immediately. So how do I balance this? I need to talk to someone. I don't want to just be a lone wolf and go and deal with this because I know it takes me to a very, very dark place with, like you said, getting the clarity and changing my like frequencies, I guess.

Host: I've got a plan.

Jason Lange: Figuring it out. Yeah.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: My plan is to figure this out. So the bottom lining thing can be a great way to share our vulnerability in a polarized way. Again, it doesn't always have to be that way, but it can bring a lot. Right. And again, masculine energy in a lot of ways. Another way to think about this is it's, you know, like I said, at the deepest form, it's that which witnesses. It's emptiness, it's death. So it's less. It's less. So if we want to polarize the moment, we move less, we use less words, we go more slowly. So when we can, bottom line, our internal experience, it can come across in a very different way. And I work with guys a lot on this in men's groups and programs, trying to get them to learn to just get to the root of it.

Host: Yep.

Jason Lange: I'm feeling sad, angry, and bored. Yeah.

Host: And that.

Jason Lange: That leap to get a man there can be huge.

Host: It is. It is this idea that we are the rock. That's effectively what you're. You're saying there. And this is what, you know, we as men need to come to is that stability, like you say, stillness, strength, all of those things comes from a grounding of our energy, not a franticness. Franticness just kind of dissipates all that energy. And we do stupid things. I know we do stupid things because I've done many of those stupid things. Luckily, not as much anymore. Probably still guilty of some of them, but definitely the franticness is the challenge.

Jason Lange: And what.

Host: What I liked about your. The way you stated it there, when you're having that challenge, is here's what I'm feeling. I'm not scared of explaining what I'm feeling. And I don't need you to solve it, because part two was, and I'm working through my guys, is that, you know, the polarity remains. It's like, here's an insight into what's going on. But now I go back over there because I'm still over here doing stuff. So I. I like that because a lot of people just put that first part right. Oh, I'm scared. I'm this, I'm tired, I'm this and that. Everything's going terrible and everything's going wrong. And you just look the opposite of a rock. Right, That's. That takes away that rockness. One of the questions I was going to ask you, but I think you've made it abundantly clear, is what's the difference between a man's group and meeting your mate stand at the pub? So I have two friends, we have a WhatsApp group that if that ever got leaked, you know, it's the standard thing that, you know, where is going to go to hell. But when we meet, we talk about the challenges and things that we're facing, be that relationship, career, you know, fitness. We talk a lot about all sorts of topics. It's not just purely about relationship, but it's often a case of, yeah, I'm going through that too. Okay, let's all carry on. We're just gonna meet same time next month. Yeah, okay, cool. There's no solution to it. It doesn't help you boil down the issue, get to be more powerful with the way you communicate it or think about a solution. How do you. So when you think about, let's say, you know, my wife comes home later from work, she's working late, she has an event, I'll look after my daughter in the afternoon. And I say to her, I say, hey, I'm going to go and join a men's group. What is the normal reaction to that? And is there a way that we can explain that or express that in a way that makes it inclusive and not. I need space from you?

Host: Okay, we'll come back to how do we find men's groups that are, like you say, non toxic versions in just a few moments. But I got a question. So you talked there about boundaries. We talked a lot about communication. I'm assuming that when you find a few of these things, there are certain topics that come up on a regular occurrence that people just, you know, habitually repeat, either individually or, you know, there's a trend across many men. What are some of those that you see coming up regularly? How do we communicate them badly? And how. What are some of the tips that you've kind of shared with people other than kind of grounding first to help establish, especially around the boundaries?

Jason Lange: Like how. What kind of boundary issues do I see a lot of men have? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's pretty all encompassing, I would say. Most men I know are not taught to do two things. Not taught how to set boundaries and not taught how to deal with conflict and repair in relationships. So a lot of people never had it modeled in their family system for, ooh, what happens when we have a fight? How do we fight well, and how do we come back to connection and repair? And boundaries are actually pretty deeply woven into that. And it's an incredible capacity to learn how to clearly set boundaries. But it often starts, right, with being aware of what's happening inside of our bodies. So for a lot of men, it's even just learning the signs for, oh, I think I need to set a boundary or renegotiate a commitment in my life of some kind. Because this thing keeps happening and when it happens, I do not feel good in my body. I feel resentful or angry or used or whatever that might be, or just exhausted and fatigued. Right. Because I'm not having a chance to restore myself. So this is where I love men's groups because these issues will start to boil up. Other guys can help us often see it. And then what's really great about a men's group is it's where we get to practice, actually practice getting clear and speaking the boundary. And so what I found is hand in hand with boundaries, one of the best ways to set them in an inviting way is to bring them forward without the emotional charge. So if I go to set that boundary and I'm charged up and reactive, not going to go so well. So coming to our men, we first get to move the charge. So just, okay, you know, you got 90 seconds. Just go on a rant. What's fucked up about the situation? What's not fair? Just, you know, Just whine, you know, in a sense, like, give yourself your nervous system full permission to do that. You give a guy a few minutes of, like, really go for it. Body calms down. Charge moves.

Host: Yep.

Jason Lange: And then you get to actually workshop with the men how to bring that forward. So what's the 200% version? Whoa. That's a little too strong. Oop, that one's a little too soft. Boom. Right there. Right there. You said it. And you actually get to practice getting the words through your mouth. Right. So there's a little bodily muscle memory, so that when we go into that space, we've done it before. And this is one of the, you know, honestly, killer features I've seen of groups. And suddenly guys start to have a process by which they can start to identify and then express them. Whether it's setting limits on certain things in their lives or honestly, even the other kind of boundary of, hey, I need some time. You know, I've had guys who. Doing some work with me, you know, just this summer, guy asked for time off for the first time in 25 years from his work. He was like, I want to go home overseas for four weeks. And lo and behold, once he asked, they were like, yeah. But he had no capacity before for how to do that. He assumed couldn't do that. So learning to set clear and healthy boundaries are really key. And, you know, a big part of how I've learned to do that that I really like is it's not about controlling the other person. Right. We know we're setting a healthy boundary when we're telling the other person what we will do, what we will do, and then we have to follow through on that.

Host: So I can see, you know, I can just imagine in some of the conversations I've had, there's like, say, time away, an individual time. You know, my wife has time with the girls, but I often feel guilty about saying, I'm going to go and do this because I should be looking after the kid or something like the kid. I'm not going to use it. You know, it's. There's, you know, things around that. Work commitments, you know, for. For things when I have to go away for work. That's tension and things along those lines. Intimacy, expectations and things along those lines. What are some of the common ones that you find coming up a lot and how, you know, give. Give us an example of some of the ways that those very common ones could be phrased differently and. And brought to the table without that energy. And that kind of, like you said, the 200% version.

Host: And we're told never to apologize is the problem.

Jason Lange: Well, you got to think of it this way. The analogy I've been using for guys is, you know, if we're outside playing and I accidentally smack you in the head with a baseball bat and I say, oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to do, you know, I didn't. It wasn't intentional and it wasn't intentional. It still hurts.

Host: Yeah, right?

Jason Lange: You are still in pain. And you probably want me to acknowledge that pain. Like, oh, man, that totally wasn't intentional. I'm so sorry. It looks like that looks like it's really painful. I believe you. That that's really painful right now, Right? Sometimes just that. So it's not about. Yeah. Falling into the trap of, you know, I have to please and appease her all the time. But you do have to acknowledge her emotional state, which means first you have to resonate with it and actually just be present in it. Truth be told is a lot of times if we do that as mental, our partners don't even need anything from us. They don't need us to fix it. Or they're just like, I just want to know. You fucking can feel what I'm feeling. Right? And the second they feel us in that space, then some, you know, something else becomes possible in that sense. And, you know, there's just an awareness of taking responsibility for ourselves as men. You know, when we drop consciousness or awareness, we should get feedback around that. The trick is we don't have to take it personally. It is going to happen no matter what. You're gonna drop the ball as a man. It's going to happen. And for a lot of guys, they get that feedback, though, and they collapse, oh, she doesn't love me. I'm not good enough. It's just, oh, yeah, I did drop the ball on that. Thank you for making me aware of that. Sometimes, even if we can just take that feedback in can be really transformative. So I don't know if I really answered your question there, but I always.

Host: Say this on podcast. The answer was correct. Just adjust the question to the answer that you've given. So it was perfect answer. This is. And I'm, you know, hopefully you're recognizing that I'm trying to smile and be a professional host for a podcast, but also at the same time, I'm nodding like a crazy bobblehead. The realizations that you've been kind of drawing upon from me so personally. Thank you so much for shining light on things that I've known about but forgotten, which has been super useful. Let's talk about next steps. Let's talk about, as a man, what can I do? How do I find a group that can support me, sustain me, reconnect me with that masculine energy and energy or what's the best way to go about getting Started.

Jason Lange: Yeah. The good news is, you know, we're. The tidal wave is cresting in terms of men's work really hitting the culture now because it's needed. You know, men have not had the tools we've needed to thrive in this complex world. And, you know, when I started this work 20 years ago, you know, you said the word men's group, maybe a church group, Bible study group, or maybe a recovery group were kind of the two types of groups out there and those, you know, for the right man, that can be great. But there's this whole new subset of men's work and men's groups that we're talking about here that are really about cultivating deeper presence, getting more embodied, learning these relational skills and capacities that are based on not just talking about things out there, but getting real about what's happening in our lives. And so they're everywhere now, once you learn what to start to look for. And you know, men's groups, it's kind of as vague term as meditation. Like, say, like I meditate, I say, well, what of the thousands of styles are you talking about? There's a lot of different styles of men's groups that can be more social, more support group, more accountability, more embodiment practice. You know, a great group is going to have a little bit of a blend of all of them. And these days, you know, you can, you can Google online men's groups near me, Eventbrite Meetup. It's starting to percolate in some pretty profound ways. There's lots of online communities for joining things for guys that don't actually have geographical resources near them. So I work with a lot of guys getting more out rural areas that are like, what are you talking about? No, there's nothing but technology like this makes that quite available.

Host: Now.

Jason Lange: You know, some of the biggest, probably the biggest physical presence around the globe is the Mankind Project. You know, they've been having some growing pains recently, but they pretty much have a chapter in every major city. So that's something where if you actually want to go sit in the room with men, that's a way to do it. Then there's lots of virtual ones. There's lots of weekends and workshops. And then the thing I, you know, I'm pretty passionate about is if you can't find one, it's probably time for you to start it. And so if you're looking and you can't find one in your community, that almost certainly means there are other men who are also looking for one. And it doesn't have to be a big fancy thing at first. You know, you were sharing a little bit. And one of my. My second group when I was in Los Angeles was me and two guys. We just decided we want to do this. Here's the date and time we're going to meet. Here's a little bit of structure and agreements. And then we started inviting men into that over time. And the right ones stayed, the wrong ones didn't. And that group still going today, I don't live there anymore, but still in touch with them all the time. And, you know, if nothing else, you can just grab a buddy, say, hey, you want to get together for 90 minutes on Friday and just get real about what's going on in life? Where are you at? Where do you want to be? What's in the way? What skills or capacities do you need to develop in yourself in order to be able to move towards that? And, you know, the wild thing is, I have found, like, once men are given the space, turns out we have a shit ton to say. It's like, oh, my God, finally somewhere I can share everything that's going on instead of holding it inside. And, you know, I'll just start to wrap up in a sense with. And, you know, it's not just like, this sounds really fun and good. This will impact your life, right? They have. There are lots of statistics for what happens when we remain isolated as men. In particular, we die earlier. Our health outcomes go way down. Like, it's as you know, isolation is as bad as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day or being morbidly obese. Particularly unlike heart disease and stuff. There's the. I can't remember the name of the book right now, but they did the one study that's literally being part of a group that meets regularly, not even a men's group, but a group that meets regularly decreases your chances of dying in the next year by like 50%. Just being part of something and this stuff, you know, I think you and I are probably around the same age. It'll catch up to you. You know, most men I work with, it's like we kind of come with a preloaded credit card and just hitting it, going out, partying, working 80 hours a week, just, I can go, I can go, I can go. Start to hit your late 30s and 40s, the limits of that start to become very apparent. And if we don't really start tending our bodies and our inner emotional world, and it will show up in autoimmune disorders, all kinds of sickness, and that's why I encourage men. The sooner you can start building these connections, the better, because most guys don't want to hear it, but I don't care how tough, how strong, how fit you are, there will be a day where your body fails you, where there's something you want to do and you cannot do it. And if you have not built a trusted network of people where you're like, you, you know, I got 25 guys on my bat dial any time of day, any place. Like, they got me. And they've had me in some, you know, pretty intense moments in my life. You want to start building that now? You know, a man in community is more resilient. So that's the other thing I'll just share, right? You are more resilient. You can get more done, paradoxically, when you're not holding it inside, when you have other brothers at your back.

Host: I love that. Jason. This has been. I can't think of a really good word which probably means I need to do some of the introspection in terms of feelings. But this has been a great insight. And like I said at the beginning, men, if you've been listening to this, then take heart that you're not on your own. And this is something that we all need to face and all need to learn how to explain, communicate, feel through. But we don't need to do it on our own. We absolutely don't need to do it on our own. I think, Jason, what you just highlighted there, it's so important. And women, if you've been listening, this is what goes on in our head the whole time. Like, we're sitting there next to you and you think that we're disconnected. We're not. We're trying to figure this out and trying to do it in a way that isn't going to annoy you, piss you off even more, create even more distance, all of those things and help us, like, help us by pushing us out the door and trying to find these. These groups of men, because we are better. And I say we men individually, but also relationships are better. When we've got this polarity, it makes. It brings us together in a way because we are different and we can enjoy those differences. So, Jason, thanks for taking us on a tour. Very quickly. How can people connect with you? I know you're pretty active on Instagram. I've seen some amazing stuff, but how do people connect with you?

Jason Lange: Yeah, Best thing, best way to keep up with me is to go to my website, Evolutionary Men. So not dot com, but men. And you can see my podcast on there. You can get links to all my socials, different programs. I do. And if you're, like, feeling the call and you need help finding a men's group, I'm very open to that. So just hit the contact form. You don't have to work with me. I will. If you're like, I'm in this area, I'm looking for something. I love just getting guys into groups. If you need some pointers or directions, amazing.

Host: I'll put all the links at the bottom of the show notes, but thank you for listening. Jason, thanks again for joining us. And yeah, let's, let's bring back a little polarity today. I think that's the final message.

Jason Lange: Love it.