Jason Lange: Why So Many Men Are Emotionally Suffering in Silence | Spiritual Infinity

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Good afternoon, everyone, and as you know, my name is Zenzi Sewa, and welcome to this episode of Spiritual Infinity. And my guest today is Jason Lange, and he's in the usa, Colorado. And he's come today to talk about his spiritual journey, but also to bring out the male side of it. Because our men sometimes feel. I don't say sometimes men, they're macho and they feel they, they mustn't cry and they mustn't be weak and that they're human beings like everybody else and have gone through things like everybody else and they need to talk their story, they need to come out and we need to give them support. So I'm so pleased with my guest today who. Who wants to come on on Spiritual Infinity and talk about his journey. Jason, before we start, I know you're in Colorado. What's the time over there?

Jason Lange: It is in the morning.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Yeah, I like to say that because I said, good afternoon everyone and welcome. I'm in London, he's in Colorado. The time is . So it's literally six hours apart. He's , I'm . That's six hours difference. And yet we're in two different places and we're here at the same time. That's how the universe works. So we people can be in different places at the same time. Well, I'm in this place, he's not. But we're here together. So, Jason, welcome and please let us hear about your spiritual journey and what you went through to come to the place where you are today.

Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for the opportunity. So, yeah, my journey really begins when I was young. Right. And so I'm a white guy raised in the lower middle class of the Midwest of the United States. I was born in 1980 and had a lot of my basic security needs met while I was growing up. Right. Was in, in a lot of ways, extremely privileged compared to so many people in the world. And what really started to emerge for me was I didn't really become aware until I was kind of into my teenage years. But in my case, right, I'm a heterosexual male. So I hit puberty and I found myself becoming interested in women. And I noticed very quickly that it was extremely uncomfortable for me to be around women and to express, to share just that I like them or wanted to talk to them. My body would kind of get tight. I'd get really, in my head, I get very uncomfortable. And then around the same time, I met some of my first, like, what I would Say closer male friends in my early high school years. And I just noticed something that, wow, how they relate to each other is different. They, like, horse around, they horse play with each other, they like kind of wrestle and connect and I don't. And so this vague thing started to happen where I was feeling really sad and depressed that I couldn't create a relationship. I saw my friends doing it and I started to, as I think a lot of people do around that age, spend time with other people in their families and. And essentially what started to become revealed was while my family was doing the best they could and provided as much as they could for me, there was a huge gap in my whole household. Was raised in a place of emotional neglect. We weren't really present for each other. We didn't really talk about our inner worlds at all. It was like we kind of just all lived in the same house. And upon deeper reflection, as I really got into my journey, it became clear to me I really didn't have a strong connection to my mother. Like, I remember I was in high school and I went away to a summer camp. Friends, parents came and picked me up. And I remember just because you're kind of supposed to do it, I hugged my mom goodbye and I was like, this feels really weird. Like, that was just weird. And it wasn't until a few years later in therapy, I connected to the dots that, wow, that felt really weird because before that moment, I couldn't tell you the last time I touched, actually physically touched my mom. Like as far back as my memories went, it just wasn't there. And so all these pieces started to connect together for me that my body was one that was neglected emotionally and physically.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Can I ask a question here?

Jason Lange: Absolutely.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): You just said that when you went in therapy, you looked back and you couldn't remember the last time you physically touched your mum. Now saying that, do you remember in your. When I say childhood, 4, 5, 4, your mother cuddling you, speaking to you. No, no cuddles.

Jason Lange: Yeah. It was just not a strong thing in our household. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. Obviously, as I was a baby, the important thing was it, you know, it was very underdeveloped in my family and even between my siblings and I like, it just touch was not a part of our family really, let alone emotional connection. And so my body didn't know how to do it. It actually, my body felt uncomfortable being close to other bodies. That was part of what started to unfold for me is my challenges continued as a teenager and into my 20s, where I was really uncomfortable in my body, I was really uncomfortable with touch. My body would kind of tighten up when I would experience it, didn't know how to receive it. And that began, you know, a long journey for me of discovering, okay, what happened to me and how do I work with that. And for me, I think like a lot of guys or. Go ahead.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): I want to ask another question. I'm sorry to interrupt, but my mind's going. You have siblings? Yes.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): How many siblings do you have?

Jason Lange: I have three siblings, two older and one younger, and we're fairly spaced apart. The closest one is 5 years in age gap for me.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): How many girls? How many boys?

Jason Lange: Two girls. Two boys.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Okay. So I just need to, I just need to understand this. So, so, because, because you, you, you, you're constantly saying that in the family, the, the connection there wasn't that touchy. You didn't have that. So does that mean even with the girls growing up, your mother or father never cuddled the girls or whatever? Was there, was there any, was there a difference between how they treated the girls to the boys or was this just a thing that was, this was

Jason Lange: just a thing in our family.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): None of you got any cuddles or that you just didn't touch?

Jason Lange: Yeah. And some of that was due to my family system and how my parents were raised. Some of that was cultural of the moment. Right. I was kind of coming off the tail end of that Dr. Spock, let him cry it out era of parenting advice that really impacted a lot of kids. So there's a number of things going on. Yeah. Conspiring together to create this. And, and it took it Right. As a, as I was going to say for me initially then what kind of. I had a deep sense. Right. Of I'm very uncomfortable.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Yes.

Jason Lange: I don't know how to be in my body.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Yeah.

Jason Lange: And there's got to be a different way. Right. That was kind of, that was about as much emerged in me is there's gotta be a different way. And that kind of kicked off a journey of inquiry and self growth and transformation for me. That started like, I think it does, like for a lot of men in particular, kind of the more philosophical route.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Yes.

Jason Lange: I wanted to learn about the universe and reading books and trying to understand things. And in that journey I got connected into some pathways that eventually led me to two things that completely transformed me and started my real healing in my 20s, which were men's groups, male community, and the power of somatic therapy. What happens when we actually get Connected to our bodies. And so, you know, one significant moment in my life was, you know, I was probably like 26 or 27 at the time. I had gone to my first talk therapist for about a year and turns out I was quite sophisticated in terms of knowing how to kind of control the narrative. Share enough to like, you know, be in there, but not really opening up. Yeah, yeah. And it wasn't the therapist's fault. It was more I had so many layers of protection up. And then about a year after that, I got connected to a men's facilitator who ran groups. And I was like, okay, I'm going to do this. I got into a group and he worked very body based. And within about 10 minutes of the attention being on me, suddenly I'm on the floor, my arms are shooting up into the air and I'm just crying out, hold me, hold me, hold me. And I'm bawling in a way I've never cried before. And I sound like I'm about 2 years old. And I got up from that and I was like, what just happened? What was that? And that was when I started to connect the dots. That, yeah, there was a deeply neglected little boy inside me that was just so longing for touch and affection and love. And that little boy, unbeknownst to me, was showing up in every interaction I was having with. With women my age. And it turns out, you know, that's not a super attractive energy in a sense. I'm not aware of it.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): You want to be muffled.

Jason Lange: Yeah, exactly. And it would cause, you know, some weird energies. Yeah, right. And as I started to work with that little boy and do some more somatic work, learn to touch my grief, learn to get in touch with my body, my anger, my desire. And you know, this was many year journey, things started to transform for me. And that was all then held in the context of. Of getting deeply connected to other men in something I've been in now for about 20 years. Men's groups, which are just a space where us men get to safely get real with each other and get into our bodies and talk about what we're feeling and what's going on and what we want. And that was so instrumental in my transformation and continues to be, frankly, at one point, honestly about a decade ago, I just wouldn't shut up about it. Just telling everyone, I know I'm in this men's group. I love these guys, they love me. They've helped me so much that I started having men ask me like, what can I Join, like, what is it? You know, at the time, I was living in Los Angeles. We would meet in the therapy office of one of the guys in my groups. And it was just, it was a tiny office. We couldn't fit a whole lot of guys. And so it dawned on me, like, oh, I want to offer this space to other men. That has been so transformational for me. And so I started leading groups. And the more I did that, the more I realized I loved it and the more it became really apparent. Like you were saying, wow, men are hurting. I'm not the only one who had this real challenge with emotions and being in my body for many, many years. You know, my primary addiction was numbing out with pornography to try to self regulate and find connection. And that's only gotten more intense for younger generations in a lot of way, in particularly men.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Yeah.

Jason Lange: And everything's just accelerated now where the stats are pretty bleak. Right. For guys, it's something like 80% of suicides are men. They're three and a half, four times more likely to try to commit it. In 1990, it was something like 15% of men had less than one close connection. It spiked to well over 20%. And this was like in the 2010s, I think, probably since COVID and everything. That's only going up in the direction of, you know, society. And you can order everything online and never have to leave your house and social connection there.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Everybody's scared. You go on the bus, people are wearing masks, and if you cough, oh my God, people look at you. Whereas we've got. Before you used to cough or sneeze, it was fine. People cough and snee. Now it's like. And we're living in fear, Jason. So all this growing up, going to college and university, whatever, you had this thing and. And you were so withdrawn because you couldn't interact the way you wanted. When you left UN university and you probably got your first job and working, how did you feel at that time? When. Because you know, it's a different thing when you leave school, you go to college or university. That's one stage of your life. Now the next stage is when you leave now you're going to the big outside world and you're in the office space and all that. How did you, how did you react there? Because people come together, they. They go out for drinks, they do, you know, how did you feel? How. What happened? How did you cop?

Jason Lange: Yeah, you know, my early 20s, I would say I probably mostly coped, like I said, with porn and then alcohol. In that, for me initially, alcohol was one of the first things that just allowed me to, you know, until you hit that certain point of too much, kind of loosen up, get a little bit more in my body, have some fun, express a little bit. And so that was pretty potent for me. But the challenge I kept having was I was developing friendships, but I still had never connected with women. I'd never kissed a woman. I'd never had sex. And as that went longer, I think, particularly for us men, better or worse, the shame inside me built up where it was something I was really ashamed of, and I was afraid to talk to people about it. Even my closest friends didn't know. And that kind of ate me up in the inside. So I was in the world in a lot of ways, but still hiding a lot and numbing a lot in my body, my pain. Luckily, you know, I did get connected to the. To men's groups and places to help bring me forward. But I honestly, I wandered, you know, for 10, 15 years. Kind of different jobs, different things, not really finding my footing. And then for me, internalizing a lot of that is there's something wrong with me, there's something broken with me. And it wasn't until much later realizing, wow, I just had an extremely dysregulated nervous system from the decades of lack of connection and touch. And turns out when you're extremely dysregulated, it's hard to do things right. This is just like a simple thing, right. It's hard to take sustainable action or really move towards the things you want or speak your needs. And as I got more regulated, you know, I was able to take more agency in my life to create more and more what I wanted. So the transition, you know, in some sense, it was good in that leaving my home, leaving my part of the country I was raised in, I got to kind of discover myself over a period of time and try out different things and personalities and ways of being that helped me just, yeah, get more connected to who I am. As I started to mature into my late 20s and 30s in particular, what was the.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): I don't know if there was. But what was the I say the singular thing or the few things that really pushed you to look for help and to realize that I need help because there's more. What was that single or future?

Jason Lange: You know, honestly, pain. It was just being in so much pain and realizing there's got to. I just. I got to do something different. I. I can't keep living like this. Waking up feeling so like, you Know, there was a long period of time where waking up in the morning, the first thing I would feel as I became conscious was a contraction in my body of like, ah, don't want to be here. Right. I don't want to be here. And I was never, I never had suicidal ideations or anything like many men do, but there was just a feeling of like, man, I'm so uncomfortable in my life that I need help, like, and I went looking for it.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): So it's a case that the pain you're talking about, and I'm going for this because there are men who are hopefully listening and even women who are listening who may know men like this so they can understand. So when you say pain and the contraction, it was the pain of trying to have a relationship and it never working out. Knowing that whether you should be kissing this woman and doing things and you couldn't and it didn't work out, knowing that you've got this woman, then you can't do the things. But now you at home, you're with the porn books and, and doing the things you need to relieve yourself and then realizing, well, you've got the woman, you're not doing it, you're hiding at home and you're doing this, it's going to sleep thinking, what, what kind of life is this when you're going for a book, when you've got. So it was that kind of mixture.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And feeling throughout all that, even though I was building male relationships because of some of the shame I was unable to reveal at the time, feeling extremely lonely. I think that's the thing that really hits a lot of men these days.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): And the macho ness of, you know, I can't talk to another man like this 100%. And you know, because they're gonna say, what's wrong with you, dude? You know, and it's, and you didn't want somebody to feel that there was something wrong, but, but you knew something was wrong. Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad we're having this conversation because I, I, I wanted to understand this morning and, and this is what I say. Our men are going through things that we don't realize, and they need to realize that it stems from way back in your childhood. And this is why I, I stopped you earlier on and say, was this just because they, you wasn't cuddled, because maybe your mother or father that, you know, maybe you were one that wasn't wanted and you came along, or you gave your mother grief at birth, or was it something that Was general. And as you said, it was something you had. You've got three other siblings, there's four of you all together, and you all are going through the same thing. No touchy, no emotional, no love. Not to say your parents didn't love you. Not at all. But there's something that this is they themselves. And I don't blame your parents, because if they're doing that to you, it was done to them, and they're only doing what they think is the right thing to do. And, you know, and. And I'm hoping a lot of people are listening to. To realize that when the. When things happen to you, and it's. It's coming from your parents, it's coming. Whether a single parent, both parents within the family of the culture, it's what they know, and they're doing the best they know how.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): So actually, when you have the courage, singularly, to say, this is wrong, I need to change, boy, that's a lot of courage and looking to see around you that not everybody's acting like this and it's not normal. So you went on, Jason, to join a men's group and, you know, look for help. How. What did that. What did that culture. What did. What did that regime look like that. To help you. What did you. What were the things you had to do or encouraged to do to get you out of this or to open up and let it re.

Jason Lange: Yeah, the kind of combination of being in a consistent group over time with men who just loved me. Right. Very simple in some sense, but love me, express that and, you know, with a frequency of connecting that I learned by being in presence with other men who could go deeper and express themselves what that looked like. I think this is one of the big challenges for so many men now is we are lonely, we're hurting inside. Many men want deeper connection, but we're not taught these skills, particularly as young boys and men, of what it means to be in our bodies and share that. Because there is this macho culture. Right. Of. From a young age. You know, it's changing, but I still hear it. I still see it. You know, young boy falls down. Oh, stop crying. You're okay. You're tough. Get back. Right back. You know, there's this energy of be tough, be tough, be tough. And what be tough really means is. Is what's happening in your body. Ignore it.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Yeah.

Jason Lange: Override it with your head. Hold it in, hold it together. Then we go to school and, you know, bless our teachers. They're trying their best. But what Is school really set up for sit still and don't move? Sit still and don't move, and you're a boy. Bodies. Male bodies need to move. Right? They need to move. And when we want to move and we're taught that that's not okay. These days, more than ever, suddenly it's, well, then you have ADHD and you need to be on meds. There's something wrong with you. And then we get to adolescence, and some of this pressure comes from other boys. We're developing at different rates. There's kind of bullying culture. You know, it's better than, I think, when a lot of us grew up, but it's still there. And so there's this expectation, oh, I have to look cool, I have to look tough. Don't give the other men around me any ammo. And then we get out into the workforce, and what are we celebrated for? You know, certainly here in the States, I imagine a little bit there. Oh, he works 80 hours a week. He sleeps under his desk. He's so committed.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Work.

Jason Lange: Wow. What an incredible guy. To do that. What do we have to do? We have to neglect our bodies. Yeah, right. We have to neglect our bodies. And so men are left picking up the pieces then of, well, if no one teaches me what's happening in my body, how to regulate my body, like, I had to learn, well, then we have to turn to things outside of ourself. Booze, weed, porn, television, video games, all. All the different things that are an attempt when we feel bad to make us feel better that don't actually make us feel better. And that was the shift that a men's group helped me learn how to feel better, really just how to feel better through connection, which was something I hadn't had a lot of.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): I am so glad of this conversation because I keep on saying this. This is going on, and we don't really realize, and our men are suffering and we don't realize, and we see them doing madness. And I like when you just said, you know, if you're shifting that you're adhd, there's something wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with you. It's just that this is. This is how you are. And then you get to be put on this medication, and then you do become that. Dedication forces you to become that. And when you weren't in the first place, and people look at us and. And we look. And in the schools. Yes, I remember growing up in school, and I've done it. We've all done it. Where we think oh, you're a boy. Come on, you're tough. You're awake. And it's. This is not just in your generation, but all the generations, you know, and we, you know, and I suppose this thing of not. We do cuddle the babies, boy or girls, when they're babies, but then as they get older, you're a boy, you know, you know, you don't. But they too. You need that love, you need that affection, you need the understanding. But, yes, you need the. The masculine side, your father's side of the Malesian, to also bring in that masculine. But there's understanding and that gentleness. And this is why, I suppose in some cultures, men can be quite harsh. You know, you're the woman, you do this, I'm the man, I do that. It's not being nurtured to understand. We're human beings, we all have these feelings and to be understanding. And it's so refreshing when you have a man who is a man, but also understands the feminine and. And helps the feminine and is gentle with the feminine. And it all comes from. From that nurturing. Gosh, Jason. So, Jason, you've gone to these men groups. You've. You've. By going to the men groups, you're able to support one another, encourage one another, look at all the aspects and not. Not feel that. Well, because you're leaning against that side. No, no, no, you are acknowledging the both sides. Because in both male and female, you have the yin and yang and it balances. And in the masculine, yes, it's a bit more masculine and feminine, and in the feminine, yes, it's a bit more feminine than the masculine, but it's still there and it needs to be acknowledged and appreciated. And when you can acknowledge and appreciate that in both sexes, the female can understand the male more and the male can understand the female more.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Because they feel the same things as well.

Jason Lange: Exactly, exactly. Get it.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): So they get it.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Yeah.

Jason Lange: You really think about how we do that in our nervous systems is if someone says that, shouts that at you. The way we do it is you hold your breath, you tighten up your body, you lock the feeling, you pack it down, override it. And what does that do over a lifetime to men in particular? Pack in all of this tension in our nervous system of what we're not allowed to feel or afraid to feel. It takes a tremendous amount of energy to hold that in. Right. If I'm like, you can do this as an experiment. If you're listening, okay, you're sitting here, you're breathing. Tighten up your whole body. Tighten up your biceps, your core, your shoulders. You're not moving, but tighten it up for a second. It's like, okay, okay. And off. I'm like, hold this for an hour. It's like, whoa, that would be exhausting. That's what most men are doing in the world. And then they wonder why they're moving through the world. Exhausted, stressed, have autoimmune disorders, because often there's so much emotional content packed up inside them. A men's group is a safe place where we learn to begin to metabolize that and actually free up our vitality to focus on the things we want and do that without having to reach for substances on the outside. Instead, we can self regulate on the inside through connection and community. And a lot of guys, oh, that sounds woo woo. What, do you sit around crying sometimes? Yes, sometimes we cry, sometimes we don't. But what happens is men are able to take more action towards the things they want in their lives and take better care of themselves and be more present and trustable in their relationship with their kids, in their work. And it really starts to change the equation for men in terms of allowing them to be humans in the world and go underneath. You know, I think you've been kind of pointing to this. One of the, I think cultural crisis we're in is for generations we have raised men to equate masculinity with the capacity to provide.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Yeah.

Jason Lange: What is happening globally and we're just getting started with AI and everything is a lot of those jobs that used to be male jobs are being wiped away, being automated. So there's a crisis for a lot of men around, how do I provide in the world? And if I'm not a provider, what am I? And that causes deep existential angst for men because they don't know. They don't know what else they can bring forward for their family, for their loved ones. What happens if my wife makes more money than me? That goes deep in a lot of men. And they're having to learn, well, you have something else to offer, right? We're not just providers in the financial sense. We can provide structure, love, grounding, presence, direction, these other skills that we're often so underdeveloped in as mental health that thankfully it's starting to percolate up in the culture and people are realizing, hey, guys need help. Women need help too. This isn't to say it's easier for women right now. It's hard for everybody. We're all being asked to grow in the big shift. I often teach for men and I take this very seriously is one of the most powerful things you can do as a man, in my opinion. In this day and age is to fully take responsibility for your pain. Because there's a lot of people out there in the world right now who want to weaponize your pain and point it out at other people. It's their fault you're in pain. It's their fault you're in pain. And there's some structural truth to some of that. But as men, that acknowledgement of, wow, I was raised in a certain way. My parents were raised in a certain way. None of us asked for this. My nervous system has these habits, and guess what? Nobody can take responsibility for changing them like I can. And then it becomes not about blaming our parents, but about acknowledging the impact. Right. I had to acknowledge the impact of what living in a household without touch and emotional connection did to me. And then it wasn't up to my parents to change that. It was up to me to change that. What kind of friendships, relationships with my spouse, with my kids, with my parents now do I want to have. I'm the only one that can shift that. And that's a profound thing for men in particular to step into that not all men are ready for. I'll be frank for it. But when we do, it is so enlivening and it gives us so much more agency in our lives of, hey, wow, I actually can change. Can't change the things that happen to me, but I can change how I respond to them. Yeah. Extremely powerful.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Very powerful. Very, very powerful. And as you said, realizing how do you want to show up? Because. Realizing that it happened from, from young, but can't blame your parents because it was done to them and they didn't recognize and they didn't know what to do, and they just continued. But in you present time, you can realize it, you have realized it, and you can make a change and that is so empowering. And then when you make that change, you can also then, by the way, you are present with your, with your parents that you can, you can go and embrace them and say, hi, mum, hi dad, and give them that love and, and it may shock them. It's okay. Because when we, we do it, we stop the generation. We stop the generation of pain continuing.

Jason Lange: Exactly.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): We can stop it and don't encourage it.

Jason Lange: That's that. Right. That's one of the new ways we can provide for the world is saying, you know what? Everything that was handed to me, it ends here.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Yeah.

Jason Lange: Whether I have kids or not, I'm going to pass something else along through the expression of my nervous system and presence and ability to connect and model particularly for other men, what it means, you know, I see this in men's groups all the time as a man, and I got to experience this when I was young to witness another man who fully steps into his grief, his fear, his shame, his anger, but yet is fully present and connected to himself and not collapsed into the emotion, but also not posturing, etc, but it's just like, yeah, here, here's what I'm feeling, here's who I am. Maybe tears rolling down his cheek, Men suddenly get the transmission. I didn't even know that was possible. Yeah, what's. Holy crap. Why didn't anyone tell me that I'm allowed to feel that way? And the, the beauty of seeing it modeled is.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Yes.

Jason Lange: What it short circuits in men is, oh, my God. And after seeing so and so feel the grief of losing his father or that his daughter won't talk to him or whatever that is, I actually more, I trust that man more. He doesn't feel weaker to me. He feels stronger to me because I saw him bravely face something that I don't even know if I could do. But then it starts to inspire other men that, okay, we can, we can be soft and strong. In the men who just want to be strong, they're actually afraid of being soft. Because softening to feel if you've never done it before is existentially terrifying for many men I work with, they're like, oh, my God, no. I feel there's this like, damn. And if I ever let that break, oh my God, I don't think I could ever come back from that. And so they brace, right? They brace and pretend and posture in so many ways. But the real strength is, oh, I can be with that. Yeah, let the emotion come.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): And as you say, when you hold all that emotion in, it leads to different illnesses, different negatives. And, and this is why it's always said, and I say we're spiritual beings with a physical body having a human existence experience. And as that spiritual being is energy. And when there's an imbalance of that energy, that's when we become ill because that imbalance shows through in different ways. So any imbalance, any pain, anything holding in will show through in a male be in a female. Because we are this. We are this. And it needs to be. And Jason, I, I haven't thought about it before, but men's group are so necessary and need to expand because as women, we're used to crying to one another and going to therapy or going to these groups and, you know, supporting but men, it's like, oh, no, that's a woman's thing. No, no, no, no. You men need to have your own 100, as you say, in the. In the family. So it's not just the woman having to support her man, but the men are there to support him as well.

Jason Lange: Yeah, that's the key. And it totally change. Changes things for us men. And I think it's one of the. Right. So my. My organization's mission statement is every man should be in a men's group. Where I. I think if every man had that kind of support in their life right now, the world would be very different. Just very, very different in terms of the loneliness and the things we're seeing and that it's how we're kind of wired. And there's, you know, there's some research that can't be totally simplified like this. But inside male and female bodies, right? We've all heard of oxytocin, right? Which is kind of the love hormone, the bonding hormone. It has a cousin hormone called vasopressin, which is. Comes from the similar. They have a similar ancestor hormonally. And male bodies tend to have a few more receptors for vasopressin than female bodies. And vasopressin is also a connecting bonding hormone, but it works through doing hard things together. So facing challenge together and moving through it creates deep bonding and connection. And there's a way a men's group can become a modern version of, how do we do that? It used to be right, we go out exploring, we'd be warring, we'd be hunting, whatever. And in that bonding, we would create these deep, male trusting connections. A lot of that's gone. You know, unfortunately for some people, they have to do with that, deal with that. But for a lot of the developed world, that's not quite the issue. It is. So the territory for that then becomes the inner world. Hey, how do we help each other navigate? Yeah. These very real challenges and wounds we have from our childhood, our relationships, our job stress, our expectations of men. And what I've just seen is as men navigate hard things in life together, they feel deeply connected to each other. And I see this every time I launch a group. The guys come in, they're strangers, they leave, they're like, okay, we're for life. Now. You've seen all of me, and I've never shown that to anyone. And you helped me feel that and move through that. So I got your back now totally changes the experience of how men feel in the world and gives them Some of that connection that. I think you're right. Just culturally, hormonally, you know, whatever. Women just tend to be better at tending relationships in life, right? Even if they don't have a lot of time. You know, my wife's got, like a text thread with her ladies, and they're connecting with each other. Men don't naturally do that in the same way. And so a men's group becomes a powerful place to get that kind of support for when life isn't going well for us. And frankly, accountability for when there's something important we want to grow or move forward in our lives, other men can call us forward and help us keep on track.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Now, let me ask another question. The time is going, and I just need to ask this now. In your life, you've had to do this. What spiritual awareness has. Has opened up in you to help you along this path? Mouth?

Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. For me, you know, I think it's just this deep belief that we're all unfolding and there's always a next way to unfold in our nervous system, and often not in the moment, but usually contextually. We can see, wow, something was guiding me in my life and that one of the big shifts I got to make in my life that I do now see, supporting a lot of men as they start to connect the dots, that for a lot of men, there's an existential pain if we're not connected to our purpose. Right? Which is deeper than just providing. It's like, what? How am I here to serve the world? Right? What's my unique contribution? And the paradox of so many things is what I found certainly in my own journey and now with many men, is often our deepest purpose has roots in our deepest pain. So what is the thing we uniquely experienced that we are then uniquely, as we learn to navigate it in life, we're uniquely set up to help other men navigate it. So for me, I know what it's like to be disconnected from my body, from others, to feel shame. And now one of my great gifts is creating spaces for men to feel connected and safe and learn how to relate to women and feel community and all those things.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Do you do any spiritual work in the sense of meditation, prayer, just walking in nature, connection to looking at the crayon? What do you do in.

Jason Lange: Sure. Yeah, yeah. Meditation is important for me. Embodiment practices like qigong, breath work, different things that get me connected to what's going on tend to connect me to a more divine energy. Absolutely nothing can often change a man's Life more than getting offline into nature with other men. So I take men into nature. I highly value nature myself and different phases in my life. So it's not a consistent thing, but I've definitely been deeply served by plant medicines as well. And getting connected to the, you know, as we'd say, kind of the great mother, the vital spirit that's really keeping us all alive, that have all really woven together. To me that, yeah, you know, our world is unfolding in a certain way, and we each have a journey to unfold individually. And one of the ways we can most contribute to the health of the world is to heal ourselves. Right. So as men, like I said, to take responsibility for our pain and know that, okay, that is a gift to women in my life, to the kids in my life, to my co workers, my friends, my family, that the more regulated and present I can become in the world, the more I can help other people around me. And sometimes that's the gift to just be a deeply present, regulated man can be an incredible gift for the people around you. And so I have a fairly deep spiritual practice and in lineage, in a sense, that's not kind of traditionally religious, I would say, but has connects to them all in terms of. Right. These are all different pathways that are trying to point us to the same thing. It's short. Love each other, take care of each other, and community matters very much.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): So very, very much. Jason, before we say thank you, you have your own group. Come on, tell us about your group. Tell us how we can, how men can connect to that group. If there's books you've written, if people want to talk to you one to one, please share that.

Jason Lange: Yeah. So if you kind of like what I'm up to here, I run an organization called the Evolutionary Men. And its mission statement is every man should be in a men's group. And the website for that's Evolutionary Men. And on there, I have my own podcast where I talk about men's groups all the time. I have programs, free trainings, and different ways to get involved in terms of whether it's private coaching or joining a men's group or going on retreat for. Okay, you know, if I have one message to the men out there listening, it's, you don't have to do this alone, right? Like, you can get support. It doesn't make you weaker. The truth is, the most effective, powerful men I now know in my life, they have strong male community, which allows them to take bigger risks in their work and their love in their life. And So I have men's groups around dating and relationship, men's groups around deep inner shadow work and somatic healing. I have men's groups for guys that just want to have the experience of sitting circle with men virtually or in person. I train men how to start men's groups as well. So there's lots of different pathways and if you don't know where to get started, you can just go to my site, hit contact tab, tell me a little bit what's going on in your life and whether you work with me or not, I can point you to the resources that are probably going to be great next steps for you.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Can you just repeat your website and connections again for everybody?

Jason Lange: Yeah, so it's evolutionary dot men. So it's not dot com, it's actually evolutionary men. And on there you'll find all the information you need to contact me. My programs, tons of resources and places to get started.

Host (Spiritual Infinity): Thank you so much. I've learned a lot today and I'm so glad to hear what you had to say. So just, I hope everybody. It's been an eye opening as well. It's been an eye opening because as I've listened to Jason, women are always there to support one another and we're always there to support men. And we're always there saying to the man, don't worry, it's okay to cry. It's so. And we do, we say this to the men, it's okay to cry, it's okay to, to be weak because I know you can and let it all out. And we're there. But the man on the other side, he's also there. And he says to his woman, you know, whatever you're going through, if you've lost a job, whatever, I'm here for you. What do you want to do? And it is a two way thing. But we also, in the men's side, we, I think they need a lot more because they do feel that they need to carry it. Because we, we do this as women. We say to our boys, our little boy, come on, you're a boy, toughen up. You're not a girl. Don't be with. I know, I think, I know. I've said this to my son. And because this is something that we hear and it is so wrong. It is so wrong. And we need to change that. And that's why we women, we have a very big role to play in all things. We need to look at the way we speak to our little children and boys. And when they fall down and they are hurting. We don't need to say to them, oh, you're a boy. Toughen up. Come on. Don't be a whip. We need to stop that. We need to say, oh, my gosh, did you hurt yourself? Where is it hurting? Never mind. We need to let them know that when they're hurt, they're hurt. And they need to be loved as well. And we do need more of those men's groups out there. And I hope you've all taken down how you can connect to Jason. If not, it's still in my write up. But for now, thank you all for joining us. Jason in Colorado, thank you so much for today and to everybody, bye for now.

Jason Lange: Awesome. Thank you so much.