Jason Lange: Redefining Masculinity, Purpose & Connection Through Men’s Work | What If You Could

Host: What if you could take that risk, make that change, reach that goal, live your best life? Welcome to another episode of the what if you could podcast, where we get together with amazing experts and everyday people who share challenges, encourage healing, and explore the possibilities that life has to offer. I'm your host, Gary Scott, and I'm excited that you're along for the ride. Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the what if you could podcast. And today, I've got my guy here. All right, Jason Lange is going to straighten us dudes out, all right? Because we're sick of this, and he's going to open it up, he's going to help us out, and he's going to bring love and. And kindness back to all of us. Right, my brother? How's Jason Lane doing today?

Jason Lange: I'm doing pretty well, man.

Host: Good job. Good job. So I'm just going to read Jason's bio real quick, and then we'll jump in the pool. Good to go.

Jason Lange: Good to go.

Host: Let's do it. All right. Jason Lange. Jason is a men's embodiment coach, group facilitator, and evolutionary guide. He helps men drop in and wake up to deeper clarity in their life's purpose and relationships. Jason believes every man should be in a men's group for the growth and support opportunities they provide. Jason is a Certified no more Mr. Nice Guy Coach. Love that we're going to talk about that shit. And has trained and studied with leaders such as John Wineland, Dr. Robert Glover, John Powassi, Tripp Lanier, and Ken Wilber. So. Right on, Right on. Just thank you so much for.

Jason Lange: For.

Host: For joining us on the what if you could podcast.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'm stoked to be here, Gary. Thanks for having me, man.

Host: Yeah, yeah. So we're the what if you could podcast, bro. So I have to ask my one question out the gate, and basically it's just, you know, what if you could have you had a what if you could moment? Or what if you could thought? I mean, what's your what if you could?

Jason Lange: Yeah, well, the what if I could, you know, that really came to me that in a lot of ways my work is about. Is for us men. So as men, what what if we could. So I'm going to use the we in this instance, have balls and heart. So not have to just have either or, right? Not have to just be a macho jerk and not have to just be a pushover, nice guy, overly sensitive, you know, whatever that might be. But what if we could have both? And what might that do both for our individual lives and for the planet right now, frankly. Right. And that for too long, I think there's kind of been this schism between the two, and it's left a lot of men really lost, really confused, and with no clear path forward of, you know, to. To be blunt, like, what the fuck are we supposed to be? How are we supposed to show up? Right? How do we thrive in this world and bring thriving to others? So, you know, that's something that more and more, a lot of my works just oriented around of, yeah, what if we could do both? And it's a path I've been on myself. Right. And usually what I find in the work I do with a lot of men is we tend to fall on one. We tend to kind of lean to one side of the spectrum by default. So some guys are just all about, you know, me, push, go raw. Other guys are a lot more like, no, I don't want to be that, and careful and safe and sensitive. And I'm, like, a little bit more on the. The more careful, safe, sensitive side. And part of my work's been, you know, bring a little bit more fire in my life, bringing a little bit more boundary, bringing a little more clarity about who I am and what I want and what I see in the world. And that's been my journey. And then I've, you know, I support men and every place in between, so to speak. Where did.

Host: Let's. Let's jump into that. Have balls and have heart. I mean, what does that mean nowadays, to have balls and to have heart? I mean, you know, what does that do? What do we take from that? You know what I mean? I mean, we could go so many places with that. But what's your take on that? To have balls and have heart.

Jason Lange: Yeah. When I say balls, what I mean is a deep and sustained connection to ourself, including our body, in our impulses, our desires, what we want, and, yes, our sexuality as men. And. And it's our capacity to set boundaries, to be firm, to not be afraid of engaging with conflict, in a sense, but not necessarily causing conflict. Right. So balls often has to do with, like, a sense of rootedness and power in, like, I'm here, right, and you can't push me around, and you can't push them around. Right. So there's this, like, solidness to our power. For a lot of us guys, it's also deeply interwoven with our life force and our creativity. You know, balls literally has to do with our sexuality and our sexual life. Force. And for a lot of men, it's a very confusing time when it comes to what are we supposed to do with that energy? Because. Because we've lived through, you know, most of human history in a lot of ways, of seeing what happens when men use that without regard to others abusing their sexuality, taking from the feminine and others and kids, frankly, but that. And then now, you know, a lot of men I work with are just completely, completely under equipped to deal with the absolute flood to our nervous systems of the easy availability of sexual content, right? Whether that's online pornography, whether that's social media, whether that's just what's frankly, you know, the hyper sexualization of our kind of commercial culture that just everything from, you know, teenage Disney shows on up, it's like things are hypersexualized. And a lot of us men just, we don't have antibodies to, like, what do I do with this, right, this onslaught of energy that hits my nervous system. And so a lot of us men are just learning, you know, how do I be right with my sexuality, how do I be right with my power in the world? That's kind of the balls part. And how do I be present in my body is the other thing I'd probably share there, something that a lot of us men just are not taught how to do. And then the hard part is, okay, how do I feel? What is my capacity to feel and be connected to myself, those who I'm in relationship with, and frankly, the, the context, the environment that I'm a part of, you know, whether that's your family, community, culture, or just the earth itself. And for a lot of us men, we've been taught you can be one or the other and not both at the same time. And, you know, traditional masculine culture has been heavy on the kind of balls, patriarchy. You know, I'm here in the States, the rugged, individualist cowboy. Pick yourself up by the bootstraps, Marlboro Man. Like, be tough, right? In generally, you know, there's certainly positive qualities in there, but generally what that means, what most men have been taught tough means, is disconnect from your body and disconnect from your heart and keep going, whatever that is, right? And turns out, lo and behold, that has some pretty severe consequences for us as men, long term in terms of our emotional, physical, and frankly, spiritual health in some pretty, pretty big ways.

Host: Yeah. You know, you think back to just our DNA as people, right? I mean, you go back to the cavemen, dude went out, caught the food, brought it back, wife was There, taking care of the kids, taking care of the cave. Dudes killed, ate, had sex. That's what dudes did, right? I mean, women had babies, took care of the kids, took care of their husband, made sure the cave was clean when he went out and killed and brought it back. It was pretty. Pretty simple, pretty basic, right? Our DNA. And it stayed that way for millennia, right? So today, like you said, it's like, bizarre. I mean, dudes can have a period. You could stuff a. Stuff a ketchup lollipop up your ass and have a period, and we don't know what we're supposed to be. It's. It's wild, right? And I.

Jason Lange: And.

Host: But on the other side of that, the women, too. I mean, it's really tough on the women. I mean, they got the women's lib stuff. Go out and work, burn your bra, screw the dudes, go make money, pay your taxes, break up the family. We're all kind of screwed up, are we? I mean, it's tough for both sides.

Host: Why do you think it's so. Why do you think it's so? I mean, I. I don't want to 100 black and white the issue, but I mean, on generally, why do you think it's so much easier for women to be in a women's group, have women's friends, talk about real. Not just like, hey, dude, you see the game and. And you see that hot chick and like that.

Jason Lange: Sure.

Host: Where women will actually connect and. And talk about their feelings and stuff. And for some reason, guys still struggle with that. It's just not a dude thing. Right.

Jason Lange: So. Dude, totally. Some of that. I mean, there's a little bit of basis in just biology or hormone profiles. You know, traditionally, like, oxytocin is going to be a little bit more relationally focused. And, you know, testosterone is a little bit less relationally focused. It's a little bit more competitive in a sense. So there's a piece of that. But that's not all of it because then we layer in the. All this cultural stuff that we're taught, and I see this all the time with guys, and it's the story I often tell now of pretty much from a young age. Most people here have maybe seen it or witnessed it or experienced it. You see how little boys are parented, right? And little boys often fall down, hurt their knee, whatever, stop crying, you're okay, get up, be tough. Right? There's this like, don't be emotional because emotion is weak. You know, that's. In a lot of ways, it's a loaded term, but that's kind of what the patriarchy is about. Emotion is weak, feeling is weak. So a lot of us as men start to get that from a young age. And then just the way, you know, kind of modern schooling has played out, we get put into a school system that for all kinds of reasons, none of them are really positive. Traditionally has been a lot of female teachers. So we have female teachers teaching young boys. And then the way that system works is sit still and don't move. And the way biology works for most young kids, particularly little young boys, is, no, we got to move our bodies to learn. We have a lot of energy and actually touching things and breaking things and running around. That's how we engage with our environment. But so often at home in the family, we have an emotion. We're being told, no, be tough. You know, be a tough boy. Don't. Don't be weak. Sometimes it's out of malice, sometimes it's out of, I don't want you to get bullied. You know, a parent is like trying to prepare their kid for you gotta be tough. Then we get to school and they're telling us, don't move, sit still. Which both of these things, what they're teaching young boys are whatever is happening in your body, ignore it, override it with your head. That's it, right? Whatever's happening in your body, override it with your head. And in the work I do, I consider emotions, Emotionality itself always starts as sensations in our bodies. So when we're teaching young boys to ignore their bodies, we then quickly teach them to ignore their emotions. Then we get to that kind of middle school locker room. Some boys bodies are changing, some aren't. Things get kind of hyper competitive. You don't want to show any weakness lest you get bullied or beat or made fun of or excommunicated from a group. And so that culture kind of persists. And then we get out into the world and for a lot of men, again, this is changing. But for a lot of men, we are rewarded for working hard. Oh yeah, he works 80 hours a week. He's a really hard worker. Turns out he's destroying his body and his marriage is falling apart and he hasn't seen his kids in two weeks. But he's a hard worker, so doing great for the company. And we often take physically demanding jobs or often very dangerous jobs in terms of toxicity or pollution or whatever that might be. Men's bodies, for all kinds of reasons, some of which are biological in just, you know, the nature of sperm and eggs. One man can impregnate many women, the other direction doesn't happen. So men's bodies traditionally have been a little more disposable. Right? So let's send the men off to war because if we lose half of them, it's okay, our town can recover, you know, you lose 90% of the women. No, it's not going to happen nearly the same pace. But point being, we're, we're taught, we're, we're actually taught out of our bodies. We are encouraged to get out of our bodies as men. And this causes all kinds of problems then because then for a lot of men, what starts to happen is we start to feel things in our body. Nobody has taught us what they are, let alone what to do with them. So what do most men do when they start to feel things that are uncomfortable? They turn to something outside themselves to remove that discomfort. Whether it's social media, porn, alcohol, weed, overworking tv, you name it. It's one of the go to things for men. And then we do it often in isolation because, oh, not only is it bad that I'm feeling sad or mad about my work, but oh my God, I cannot let anyone know that because that would just be the worst. And I certainly can't ask for help and go to a counselor or therapist because that's only for really messed up people. This is all the garbage that men are fed. And a lot of us just come up in this culture of men are your competition. And a big part of my mission and the work I do with men's groups is no, the right men are your allies.

Host: And the sad part of that is a lot of times men don't even turn to their partner because they don't want to feel weak in front of their partner, when in fact, fact, that is the person you should be turning to besides the men's group and yes, other men. But I mean, your partner is supposed to be your partner. And if you can't even turn to them because you're fear to sound weak to your wife or that you're not, you know, not supposed to share these emotions, then that really is hurtful for the family, for the whole unit, for the marriage and stuff. You touched on a bunch of stuff there, touched on social media, which, which I was going to ask. I know social media is, could be pretty dangerous too, but what about male role models? I mean, you're talking about when we were younger and things like that and you know, our family units kind of messed up our, our, you know, we have female teachers, which is cool. The principal, you know, authority figures or women early in our life and stuff like that. Where are the role models for men now?

Jason Lange: This is the great question of our time. There aren't many. And this is again, one of the really painful things in that. Again, some of this was just due to technology and culture shifts. Right. Robert Bly talks about this a lot in some of his early writings, but that, you know, when the Industrial revolution happened, one of the big shifts that happened was before that, you know, in a lot of tribal cultures and traditions, men, the boys would, you know, boys and girls would kind of be together and everyone would just be playing and being raised. And then, you know, between like 8 and 12, at some point there would be a shift where the boys would kind of be taken by the older men, sometimes their father, to, okay, you got to start coming to work with me now. You're going to shadow me in my trade or my thing or whatever that might be. And there were often traditionally Rites of passage and still are in many cultures around the world. That's like, hey, your time of being a boy is done, and it's time for you to step into being a man. And what that really meant was, you're now going to spend more time with the adult men being taught the ways of our village culture, workplace, whatever that is. When the Industrial revolution hit, what happened, dad started going off to the factory. They were gone all day. So the boys were just left behind. And that transmission stopped for a lot. A lot of men and young boys, sports and, you know, the Cub Scouts and some things kind of like, held that for a little while, but a lot of that has kind of dissolved. And so a lot of boys don't get to spend time around men, just that simple. They do not get to spend time around men. And that's the main way we get the transmission of what being an adult man is supposed to be. It's like, this is their, you know, wow, I can feel their nervous system. I see how they deal with frustration. I see how they deal with an angry client. I see how they deal with the weather being bad. That teaches us something, right? That all kind of got shattered in a lot of ways. And then, yeah, you know, we used to a lot of our archetypes for, you know, healthy masculinity, we're kind of more this macho Marboro man, John Wayne kind of thing. That held for a little while. But the problem with a lot of those role models now is they're not sophisticated enough to deal, to be meaningful. In the culture we live in now, where those men weren't raising their kids, they were not having emotional conversations with their wives. They were, this is what we're doing. And she was just expected to follow, and the kids were just expected to follow. None of that shit works anymore. It doesn't fly anymore. Doesn't mean we can't lead our families. But we. We need more complex role modeling here. And that's what there's just not a lot of. Right. There's just not a lot of it in mainstream media, in culture at all. And it's pretty rare, right? When we ask men, like, what are positive, like positive, integrated representations of masculinity do you see out in the world right now? A lot of people don't have a tremendous amount of things they can name. And that, again, leaves us in a vacuum. And that's one of the most amazing things I've seen take place in the men's work world that I'm in. In men's groups is suddenly we get hooked back into that. And part of, you know, my personal journey of why I'm so passionate about this stuff is, you know, I was 26 when I started working with a mentor in a men's group. And I mean it sounds so ridiculous but I'm like watching this man facilitate. He was probably in his late 50s or 60s at the time. Saw him interact with his wife a little bit, saw how he was interacting with the other men. And my felt body experience was oh shit, that's what I want to be when I grow up. You know, kind of like you would say like a three year old, I would be a fireman. But it wasn't about what he was doing, it was about how he was being. I got this deep transmission of his presence. His, he was super grounded. He was very much in contact with whoever he was talking with. He was deeply aware of himself, of people, of the environment. He modeled healthy anger, he modeled healthy shame. He didn't get rattled by things, he didn't get reactive to things. And I was like, whatever that is, that's what I want. Like I want to, I want to, that's what I want to be when I grew up. Like, how did you do that? What did you do? And that kind of led me on a trajectory. And I see this all the time in men's groups is I take guys in sometimes men who have never been around men in any kind of meaningful way or didn't trust them or didn't feel safe around them. And you know, a man will bring some piece of work forward or you know, the spectrum I often see that just blows guys minds is either a man brings forward a tremendous amount of anger or rage about something in their lives, but they do it in a way that they can feel completely safe to be around. There's no like, oh my God, what's this guy about? It's like, wow, yeah, he's, he's pissed. And I feel totally safe. I trust him. He's not going to hurt me, he's not going to hurt people. That's mind blowing to many men that that's a possibility. Or a man will often go deeply into some piece of fear or grief like and just be pouring through tears. Yet his chin will be held high, he won't be collapsed. And men will have the experience of he is strong. I trust this man even more. Not because he doesn't cry, but because he does cry. He's not afraid of that shit. And that's, you know, one of the Things I often say to guys is like, who's more afraid? The man who's unwilling to feel his emotions or the man that just goes right into him, doesn't collapse, doesn't posture, but knows how to be with them. And that transmission of, oh, there's another way to be here. Right? There's another way to be here. I can be in my power and I can be feeling, you know, it's another way to think about the, the heart and the balls thing wakes guys up and shows them, oh, there's, nobody told me, you know, so many guys are just like, nobody showed me or told me that something else was possible. I've been sitting my whole life holding all this inside, suffering, self medicating, often depressed or with no energy, feeling totally alone. And nobody even told me something like this was possible. And then suddenly like all these preconceived notions just go out the door. And the, the best part of it, I mean for me, Gary, is seeing men come alive, like literally just seeing life force come back into their body of I'm alive, I'm feeling, I'm here. And it's just so inspiring.

Host: That's awesome. Yeah. You know that, that pressure valve you're talking about, you know, would you rather have the dude who can just decompress, be real, express those feelings or the dude who's holding that in? It's like, who are you going to trust? That dude who just holding that in, he's going to blow, man. Something's going to go sideways with that cat. And this guy's just like, he's level. I mean he's. Yeah, you've got emotions but you're releasing that pressure valve. You're not holding this in and, and you're just. As your soul starts to heal, you know, you can start feel that person differently. You, you know, just their energy is different. The way they hold themselves is different. You know, men still have to have a purpose, right? I mean we still have to have purpose. All people still need to have a purpose. Where do you think on that? On that? Since we talked to touch about a little bit with the social media. I mean, what, where do you think? It just seems like everything's time 10, you know, it just seems like warp speed from. Yeah, we were kind of going sideways and the pendulum was swinging. But now the pendulum is just like swimming around like a clock. I mean, don't you see things have sped up as far as men getting their ass kicked.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think, I mean what I'll focus mostly on is. Yeah, Men are, you know, in so much pain. And social media is really interesting because it intensifies for all people. You know, things like this. Certain online communities which tend to be focused around niche similarities or likes or very special things are like the positive version. But generalized social media tends to really be destructive to people's psyches because it's kind of like, I call it sugar. It's like sugar. It's like, I think I, I'm getting a lot of connection, I'm connected to all these people, right? And it's like, no, it's not actual nutrition to be scrolling a social media feed or occasionally liking someone's post or commenting on it. It's not actually relational in a felt body way. So a lot of men are getting the empty calories of that and then it just intensifies. What is such poison to so many men, which is comparison. Oh, you know, and it is in some ways this simple, but it's like he's got bigger dick than me, so I gotta feel bad about myself, right? And that plays out in all kinds of way. The size of the truck, the beauty of the girlfriend, how his six pack abs where he's going on vacation. So for most men, they look at social social media and they feel worse about themselves. Oh, everyone out there has a good life and has figured it out and I don't. And oh, they have such good lives. I can't talk to them about that, right? They'd never understand how much I'm suffering. The reality is most men are suffering inside, right? Many, many men are suffering inside. And when you get past all that and you get men in the same room and they start revealing, it's like, oh, yeah, everybody has some painful story they're carrying, everybody has a challenge in their lives and then you just get, yeah, these kind of generalized messages that I used to live in LA and was part of Hollywood for a little while and you know, it didn't help that, you know, kind of 90s 2000s, a lot of the comedy shows, you know, about the bumbling man, the, the oh father that he's just so clueless, kind of these stories really started to kind of accumulate, I think for a lot of men. And then, you know, honest truth is for a lot of women, they've had pretty damaging experiences with a lot of men. Just a few men who are disconnected can cause a lot of harm in the world and impact a lot of people. And then those stories get highlighted and a lot of the other stories about just solid guys who are doing the best they can to take care of their families. You know, that doesn't make for engaging social media content. Like, yeah, you know, I came home early from work so I could take my kid to his game. Like, that doesn't go viral, right? In any capacity. So, you know, it distorts the narrative, I think, in a lot of ways. And that when you couple that with a lot of men just aren't given the tools for how to be relational. Men, I think, are suffering even more from the changes in our culture of this hyper social media technology, work from home. You know, what I kind of call it here in America is this hyper focus on privatization and being an individual. The dream is to have your own car in own house, away from everybody, so you never have to see anyone. That's kind of the American dream, right? Which means you're disconnected, you're not actually part of anything. And there's a lot of forces that have pushed us to that. I mean, right? In the age of Amazon, you can live from home, never leave your house, honestly. You can get food, groceries, your basic needs met. You can be connecting with people virtually. And that, I think, hits men the hardest because for whatever reason, cultural, biological, a lot of women do just have a little bit more of an innate capacity to, you know, whether it was Covid or something else, they're still in contact with friends sharing about their life and what's hard through text messages. I see my wife doing it all the time, right? It's like her phone's always going off because she's just relating. And a lot of men I worked with, particularly during, you know, Covid and lockdowns, if they weren't in a call with me or one of my groups, they weren't talking to anyone. They were just alone in a room, suffering.

Host: It's scary how quickly you can go three or four days without talking to anyone, you know, it's really bizarre. And that motion you're talking about and the pain and stuff. I started a podcast with a friend of mine. He lost his wife to cancer. I lost my wife to cancer. We were talking all the time, and I said, dude, we should get this out to people somehow. And then my buddy goes, we'll try a podcast. Like, ah, sure, why not? So he and I started this thing called Grief Pie. Two guys sharing grief, one bite at a time, right? And it was so heavy that people like, dude, I can't watch that anymore. Seriously, you guys bring it way too hard. And I'm like, what? We're just sharing, you know, we're crying. We're, like, talking about our feelings and. And really going there. And the crazy thing is we'd have women reaching out all the time.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: We'd have no dudes reaching out. And then the occasional guy, like, behind the scenes would text me like, hey, man, I'm really hurting you. Can I talk to you about something? I'm like, yeah, but come on, you know, Come on, talk with us. Go on the site, you know, share your shit. Because that was our whole focus, is getting men to come on and share. Couldn't do it, right? But the chicks were like, yeah, let me. Come on. I tell you, I lost my husband or I lost my kid or I lost my dog or a lot. Right. And I'm like, wait a minute. This is guys trying to get guys out here to share. And we finally just gave it up. Well, we had to give it up because he crashed and burned. But I mean. But yeah, it's just a really tough thing. And I think this is why what you're doing is so awesome. So explain me men's groups. Explain me what you're doing with the workshops and stuff like that.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, I'll give a little piece of context first in that. Again, how most of us men relate by default is through. You know, I didn't come up with this, but we call triangulation. So me call it what? We call it triangulation.

Host: Triangulation. Okay.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: One mission, they've got one purpose. They're ass slapping, they're hugging, they're like, you know, they can share. And they've got one mission, you know, and they're tight, right? And then when that's over, they don't really have that, you know, they don't have this group of dudes that like all have their back, like you're saying, you know, and I know a lot of vets that you go, why do you keep going back? Are you nuts? Why do you keep going back to that shit? But that's where they feel their family is. Those dudes get it. Those guys know the ptsd, those guys know the struggle. Those guys know what it's like to try to stand up and be a warrior. And other people just don't get it. And so they miss that and miss that connection. And what you're offering is to say, hey, you know, you don't have to go to war, you don't have to be a professional athlete to get that connection right. We can do that here by just being in the normal world.

Jason Lange: It's a great pointing out, because I've noticed that too. And you know, for some men, it's why their lives peak in high school, you know, because they were part of a sporting team. And they always talk about that, what it's really about. It's not that that was so great. Is, you know, the thing a lot of man or men are just dying to feel is belonging and purpose. So I belong to something and there's a purpose in me being part of that group or collective sporting teams. You definitely feel that, right? Wow. If I don't show up for this practice, so and so is not going to get to practice. Like, it matters that I'm here and I belong to this team. Same thing for vets, you know, oh, my God, all my brothers are going back over there. They might get hurt if I'm not there to help protect them and catch their back, watch their back. Right. You get belonging and purpose out of that. And that's something that a lot of men in this moment are totally feeling an absence of. And so a men's group is kind of like a third space where that can start to matter. And, you know, one of the ways it often blows guys minds in the work I do is that belonging and purpose of what I see as like a shift in leadership in men and men's groups is being willing to go first. It's totally crazy, but it's this thing of, oh, I don't want to burden men with all this shit I'm going through and how hard it is because they're, you know, they're not going to like it if I cry or they're going to think I'm complaining. And at least in the groups I lead, every time this happens, every, every time a man comes forward, steps into his vulnerability, his truth, his rawness, his realness, it actually opens the door to other men and they feel more comfortable doing it. And they're always fucking grateful. They're like, thank you for sharing that. Like, I didn't know I could, but you just inspired me. Now I'm going to share this. And it starts this domino effect where every man's willingness to be there in the group, sharing their realness actually serves the other men. And it starts to create the sense of, I belong here. And there's a purpose here. There's a purpose to me connecting to my pain here. Because sometimes me connecting to my pain relieves one of my brothers from his because he realizes, oh, shit, I'm not alone. I thought I was the only one grieving my spouse, right? No, you and your buddy, you got to be in that together. And so much of this emotional content. We are not meant to feel alone, right? In so many traditional cultures, you didn't grieve alone, you grieved in community. It's how we're like, wired to Actually be in this relational space and move through these things together. And as all that was kind of shoved underground in our kind of hyper suburban car, private nuclear family, all the, that was just invented literally in the last 80 years. They just made it up, right? They just made this stuff up. Never existed before. We're having to deal with a lot of the repercussions of that as men and as a culture and having to kind of find our way back to wait. There's, there's actually some important things about being part of a collective of a community, about having relationships that are meaningful. And frankly, just sitting in front of someone and making eye contact can do more for our nervous system than all the shit they sell us on Instagram.

Host: Yeah. You know, do you guys, do you guys talk about or do you get into it all just kind of what's going on with, you know, the mental part? Obviously you guys are, are going through with, you know, what you're covering, the relationships and social media and, and the giving and the opening up and stuff. But you guys talk about what's going on with our health, with our diet. The testosterone levels are like at zero for a lot of these youngsters coming up. They've just got no self esteem. Their body's just gone to. Because the poison they're putting into themselves, there's no testosterone. So they're struggling with that. I mean, do you, do you work with that at all? A little bit, kind of walk people through that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, these themes definitely come up. You know, I was actually talking to a woman who, she works with men around sexual dysfunction and she was talking about the biggest shift she's seen in her career over the last 20 years is guys coming in for Ed used to be older men who had physiological problems. So things do change as we age, right? There's just like a vascular difference. But one of the biggest shifts she saw is more and more men coming in their 20s. There's nothing wrong with their body, but they couldn't get an erection. And like, what's going on with that? And that's a lot of where this kind of cultural and yeah, some testosterone level stuff all comes into play and it all fuses together, right, in terms of we're less in our bodies, we're more on computers, we've been fed this kind of carb, heavy processed food, TV dinner. You know, I grew, I, I'm a little younger than you. I think I grew up in the 80s and it was like I was eating a box of sugary cereal a day. Like that's the, you know, this was Little Debbie preservative food. Like, this is the crap I was raised on. And I had, like, horrible acne and weight problem. It's like, no wonder. Just not. It's. It wasn't normal, in a sense. And there's some rebound of that happening that I think we are having to kind of come to terms with culturally of environmental toxins, diet problems. And just no one teaches us this stuff. And, you know, not to be too ideological, but we live in a pretty hyper capitalist culture. So things like Instagram, they're always, you know, and I see it and I have to deal with this and how do I get men to come to me and whatnot? It's always the quick fix culture. Here's the five things you need to do to da, da, da forever. And it's like, no, actually change. It takes work. It's hard. It's hard to live a healthy body. You know, it's simple concepts, but it takes discipline. I, you know, I heard this great reframe in a. I was working in a men's program, my own. I was getting some support recently, and a guy was or just blew my mind. It's like, discipline is giving yourself what you really want. Like, what you really want. So when you're really disciplined with something, it's like, yeah, what I really want is to be in a body that has enough energy and mobility that I can play with my kids. You know, that's what I really want. I don't really want the ice cream sandwich. Right. Um, but a lot of that, again, has kind of been wiped away. So a lot of men are physically just feeling terrible. And then again, you know, I would say this kind of like, American, like, work hard culture. So many guys I work with, man, are just burnt out. Never taken a vacation in their whole lives. I was working with one guy last summer, moved to the US maybe 30 years ago for the first time. He asked for a vacation to go back home and spent two weeks in the summer, like, with all the people he grew up with. And he had just never asked because I always got to be working harder. I always got to be earning. He just never thought about it. Or, you know, I've worked with another guy who badass CEO running companies for 25, 30 years. One morning he couldn't get out of bed, and he was just in bed for three months because his body was just like, nope, you're done, you're done. We're not. We can't do this anymore. There is Nothing left in this tank. You have charged this credit card. And so his system just knocked him down. You know, autoimmune issues show up for all kinds of guys in terms of digestive stuff, joint stuff, back stuff, heart problems. Like these things catch up into us and a lot of times they're because we're just pushing ourselves too hard. Because lo and behold, nobody taught us to be connected to our bodies, to feel. Oh, wait, actually, I'm past my limit. I gotta get some sleep. I gotta take some time off. I gotta shift down into rest and digest. You know, the, the. We're kind of encouraged to pretend like every season is summer. It's just like, no, always be going and building and out there and doing it, and it's just unsustainable. And it really wrecks men. I mean, I just see guys, bodies are wrecked and then they're depressed and they have no energy and they wonder why. And it's like, well, what are you eating? How much are you sleeping? When's the last time you did nothing? Got out into nature, recharged, spent some time with friends and family, just connecting. And they're like, what do you mean? I can't do that. So, like, well, why not? Well, because I got to work really hard so that I can earn enough money so when I'm 70 years old, I can retire and actually enjoy my life. It's like, well, how's that working out for you? It's like such a myth. We're sold, right? Instead it's like, well, what would it mean to actually start doing that stuff now?

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: While your body still can.

Jason Lange: I work with the whole span. You know, I work with guys up into their 70s, and I've worked with guys as young as in their 20s. There are men who specialize in working with guys younger than that, and there is, thankfully, a kind of blossoming, you know, what we call rite of passage movement that's about getting young boys, you know, 10 to 15, out into the wild with other men, often with their fathers, when possible, to start this kind of process in a far more conscious way. Because I would say my experience of particularly younger guys I've worked with who are, you know, maybe more of what I broadly categorize as that kind of failure to launch, like, you know, just kind of stuck at home, a little afraid. Often what they've never had is a strong masculine presence giving them guidance in life. Just it. And, you know, what I teach men is, you know, the father energy we all need is. Let's figure it out together. Oh, you tried that and it didn't work? It's okay, man. Let's figure it out. What can we do different next time? Oh, you're scared about that? Yeah. That's okay. Let's make a plan. Let's figure it out. There's this sense of, you can try because someone's behind you to help guide you and help you recover if you, you know, mess up or fall. I grew up without that kind of presence. So my life early on was like this. Afraid to do anything because I'm terrified. And so I would have to, like, be super calculating, make sure I could do it totally perfectly, and then, like, take a little step, and it was exhausting. And it didn't work very well because then I kind of stumbled through life as well until I kind of found men's works and men's work and older mentors and whatnot. In just what I see, again, a men's group can start to do this for some guys is, oh, shit, there's someone behind me now, and I don't have to figure it out all by myself. And in fact, we can learn to actually celebrate. Don't do it perfect. Just launch, get some data, come back, regroup. We'll make a plan with you. You try it again. And as that is, we can trust that process, Whether that's with a mentor, a father figure, men's groups, or peers. Men start to take more action in their lives because they're like, oh, okay, it's okay if I do it wrong. It's okay if I ask that girl out and she doesn't like me back, Right? But when we don't have anything to fall back to, it's terrifying. At least it was for me. And so I think a lot of. A lot of these kind of failure to launch kids, they just haven't been around. Strong, masculine. And this is the really important piece. Present men. Meaning I'm actually here with you right now. I'm not just sitting on the TV watching sports. I'm involved. And I'm asking you about your life. What do you want to do? What are you curious about? What are you scared about? Hey, let's go out camping. Like, let's try some things. I want to teach you some things. I want to learn some things from you. And there's been a huge lack of that for so many of the younger guys I work with. And, you know, I'm not here to blame the reasons for that. It's just the reality of that. But when that starts to get connected and online. And literally, for a lot of men, it's just this feeling of, there's somebody at my back, there's somebody at my back. Boldness comes back online. Okay, I'm going to try this thing. I'm going to go out to this group, I'm going to do this thing. I'm going to sign up for this workshop, I'm going to go for this job, whatever that might be. And we need a lot more of it, that's for sure.

Host: So what is. You've got. I went to your website. You've got a ton of great stuff on there. I mean, so. So some dude comes to you and, you know, he's got his tail between his legs, got his head down a little bit because, you know, no one wants to ask for help, right? Especially dudes. And no, no one wants to just say, hey, I up. You know, I need some help. I need some love. I need some. What. What are some of your programs? What's the first thing you. You'd lead them to? I mean, what would you go, dude, we need? I think a good start for you would be this.

Jason Lange: Yeah, a lot of times it'd be, you know, getting involved in a men's group, whether it's one I'm leading or not. Like, just. Yeah, spend some time with other men. See what it feels like. For a lot of guys, particularly, you know, there's probably 40 to 50% of guys I've worked with. It's deeply uncomfortable to be around other men because they used to be bullied or beat up. Like, it used to actually be a life and death thing or the primary masculine figure in their life, a stepdad, a father, whatever, that used to actually abuse them and hurt them. So there's a distrust. And so the first step is like to get into a space and learn. Okay, that's not all men. That's not all men. It can be safe.

Host: So.

Jason Lange: So getting involved in a group is really good. A lot of guys honestly come to me through podcasts. You know, there's just something to the kind of. I get to listen, get to know someone, I can feel their energy. And then, okay, I want to engage because I feel like I kind of know that person. Just guys love podcasts. That's something I've learned. Love listening to podcasts. It's a great gateway. And then the honest truth is, most men that I work with really only come to me when they've actually hit a crisis in their life. Some men are proactive for sure, but it's not many of them. So a lot of guys I work with come in and work with me in one of my programs that's specifically around dating and relationships. And it's one of the places I specialize in because, lo and behold, it is one of the only things I often find that is so, so painful for a man. He'll get off his ass and try something new. My wife is leaving me. I've gone on 100 first dates in two years, and nobody calls me back. You know, like, there's just. I want to be in a loving relationship, and I'm not able to create that right now, or the one I'm in is ending. And there's like a visceral pain and they come and get help in those moments. Other people, it's, yeah, like burnout or depression or just. I feel so stuck and so lost. I don't know what to do. So they'll come. And so, yeah, you know, I funnel people into, you know, listening to some podcasts, coming to some groups, live retreats are always great. It's kind of like diving into the deep end, frankly, because it's, you know, you're in a physical room with other men. That can be activating for a lot of guys, but it's also generally the highest payoff in terms of actually getting physical time spent with other men and your nervous system literally starting to rewire. And that's where I really see men, you know, come back alive and just start getting connected. So, you know, it really depends on the man. So, you know, the first thing I'll do with a guy is just talk to him. What's going on in your life? What's not working? You know, what do you want? And then based on that, we'll kind of guide him. Sometimes it's to work with me, frankly. Sometimes it's to work with other people. Many, many men, for whatever reason, you know, I don't blame them. They're often more likely to reach out to a coach first. And then, you know, I would say, you know, half the guys I end up working with, long time, I get them kind of cross training with some therapy and counseling as well that like, oh, yeah, no, there's nothing to be ashamed of. You know, we go to the gym to work out our body. We go to a therapist to work out our heart in our mind. That's it. There's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing broken with you. It's just hygiene for the spirit. For some reason, guys, you know, just the. There's so much judgment around that in the culture. Um, but they'll come to coaches first, so I'll often start with guys and then we'll, you know, we'll parallel path that sometimes I'll do one on one work with guys. I lead men's groups, retreats. You know, there, there's definitely a lot of avenues, but usually what it is, is, you know, frankly, who comes to me, they're in a great moment of pain and they've listened to a podcast and they've heard me say something that just deeply resonated with their experience. And they're like, you said that. And I was like, that's what's. Yeah, that's true. So I want to work with you.

Host: Whatever reason, you know, crying is such an awesome thing, you know, And I, I, I don't. I would imagine that in some of the retreats where you're, you're with people and that vibrations pumping. I know that Jim and I, when we were doing our grief pie, you know, we would snivel and cry through so much of it. And one episode we did, we called it, you know, the Day they, they died. And we recounted, like, Jim and I just, both, wow. For good fortune were with our wives when they died. And so, I mean, recounting those last moments with, you know, Jim had been with Jen for 30 years. I'd been with April for 28 years. And we just cried like, baby. And people were like, dude, don't ever make me watch that episode again. I swear to God, I hate. You go. You go yourself. And I'm like, that wasn't the reaction I was looking for. But, yeah, whatever. Um, but because raw emotion is really hard for people, yet there's nothing I could tell people all the time what happens if you have a really hard cry. You start to laugh. It's just a weird thing that your body is. You cry your fucking eyes out, you sit and weep, and all of a sudden you start crying and you have no idea what I mean. You start laughing. You have no idea why you're laughing. But it's just you've cleansed your body of that, that hurt, you know, that ache, that whatever it is. So when you're in these groups, I would imagine there's some real emotion going on, there's some real truth flying out of there.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Whether it's through doing deep shadow work with guys, doing breath work. I mean, men, whale, they release, they, they, they let go, their bodies shake sometimes and they come out the other side. Guess what? They feel better. They Feel more alive, they feel more spacious. And most men, a lot of men I know, are terrified of feeling grief because they fear that it's going to last forever. Just, oh, my God, there's so much in there. It'll just take me down. The raw, honest truth I've seen in doing this work for many years is most emotional content when you go right towards it and you just be with it. We're talking minutes doesn't mean there's not waves. So I often, you know, think of sets of waves in the ocean. Like, okay, a big set's coming in and then it calms down. You know, that can happen over days, weeks, months and years for sure. But the, the really intense part, if you really go into it and you're in a safe environment and you're connected to people, lo and behold, often minutes and men will often. I've had this experience and men I've often worked with, they're like, oh, I've been holding that for 25 years and that took seven minutes. Seven minutes of my life. And so, you know, a lot of guys, I'll be like, just like, productivity wise, it makes a lot more sense to feel like we're supposed to cry to feel better. It actually does release things in your body so that you can move on. If you're not crying, you're not grieving, you're not moving on. You're still holding that inside your system. And anytime we're holding anything emotionally inside our system, it takes metabolic resource. This is what saps energy from men. We start to really see it in our 30s and 40s and 50s and beyond. Why am I so exhausted all the time? Oftentimes it's because we're holding so much. You know, they say your issues are in your tissues, and it's true. And, and so every time I do this work with men and they have a big rage or grief or whatever, why I say we get to see them come back alive is because suddenly energy starts flowing again. All that energy that was locked up in holding that is free to be used for life again, to actually be back in our life in this moment. And tears are certainly one of my favorite ones to support, support men in of just like, yeah, man, just let it come, let it come, let it roll. Your body knows exactly what to do. And many men actually do end up coming to me in what they say, Gary is I wish I could cry. You know, I do get men coming to me. I wish I could cry. I just can't. Lo and behold, we get Them in a room, loving present, men connected to them, often just a hand on the shoulder. Boom. Avalanche. We're not supposed to do this alone. We are supposed to be seen and be connected in the process.

Host: And, you know, that's why they call it disease. We got a disease because it's dis ease. You know, our body is not at ease, our soul is not at ease. Our. So our soul is hurting, man. And. And there's not a lot of ways to heal your soul unless you're just willing to open your soul, you know, and. Yeah, keeping it closed up like that does not do us any good, brother. So what you're doing is. Is awesome. You know, I just. I love your work, Jason. I. I appreciate what you're doing, and men definitely need the support. It's not weird, it's not stupid, it's not feminine. It's not. It can be feminine. Who gives a. It could be feminine, it could be. It's masculine, whatever it is, but it's. It's necessary. What you're doing is necessary. So I do always ask one last question before I set my poor guest free here, probably itching to get out of here. But I always ask one last question, if I may. I always ask the what if you could question ahead of time. And I tell you I'm going to ask that. But this one, I don't say it. But if there's something that was important to Jason Lange, it could be a sentence, it could be a thought, it could be a philosophy, it could be something you heard from someone, or it could be whatever. It could be a cookie recipe. Who gives a. But if there's something you wanted to leave our guest with that really meant. Means something to you that you'd like to. To take away, what would that one thought be?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think what I'm going to land on here is this idea that we kind of just went into it, but some things aren't meant to be felt alone. Some feelings that they're not meant to be felt alone. And we have our whole nervous systems as human beings are literally oriented to be relational. Right though. Got that big bundle of nerves that goes from the base of our brain all the way down our spine, the vagal nerve. And it's all about connection. It's all about relating us to connection, which means eye contact, facial expression, voice. And it is one of the primary tools we use to regulate our nervous systems. So we are meant to co. Regulate each other. And as we've gotten out of connection with each other, people are Less regulated. So everyone's walking around so uncomfortable and anxious and angry, and then we turn to social media to feel better, and then we see something that makes us pissed off, and it makes it worse. And so, you know, just this idea, whether it's a men's group, a support group, a church group, whatever, especially with the way things are going with AI and virtual reality, getting your physical body in front of other human beings in the real world offline is going to be so important for wellness moving forward that, you know, what I tell my guys is, you know, in my case, getting into a men's group, it doesn't make life easier, but it does make it a hell of a lot better. All that stress is going to come at you no matter what. You're going to be a lot more resourced to deal with it. That simple. So you can recover faster and keep moving forward in your life to create what you want.

Host: I love it, brother. Don't do it alone, man. Don't do it alone. All right, well, guys, that was Jason Lange. Jason, you're awesome. Where can we find you and where can we chase you down so we can all get healed? All of us dudes?

Jason Lange: Yeah, you can check out me and everything I'm up to at Evolutionary Men. So not dot com, but dot Men. I got a podcast on there. I got writings, my programs. You can also just reach out, throw me a email in my contact form if you want to help find in men's group or just, hey, where do I get started? You know, I have some things, but I'm just as likely to push you to someone else I know if I got something in your area or something else going on. So don't be a stranger.

Host: Awesome. And we'll post all that on the website, all the links to your stuff and how to find you and things like that. So really, man, I appreciate it. It's great work. It means so much, means a lot to me. It means a lot to our brothers and sisters because it helps everybody. A healthy man is a healthy society, and I think it's crucial, brother. So, everybody, you were just exposed to the amazing Jason Lange on this episode of the what if you could podcast, look for Jason Lane. I'll put the links there. And please reach out, man. Don't do this shit alone. It sucks. Get out there and get help. All right, my brother. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you being here.

Jason Lange: Yeah, thanks so much, Gary.

Host: All right, man. Thanks again for joining us on another episode of what if you could podcast, please subscribe like, share and give us any feedback. We'd love to hear it. And remember, if you can dream it, you can do it. See you next time.