There's a moment most men hit, sometimes at 26, sometimes at 46, where the numbness stops working. The alcohol, the work, the screen, all of it just stops being enough to keep the inner noise quiet.
I sat down with the hosts of Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads during Men's Mental Health Month, and we went deep fast. What I've been saying for years in my coaching work is that so many men aren't struggling because something is fundamentally broken in them. They're struggling because they were trained from a young age to disconnect from what's happening in their bodies and call it strength.
We talked about how boys fall down and get told to shake it off, while something quieter is actually happening. The nervous system learns to override the signal. That training compounds through locker room culture, through a workforce that celebrates the guy who sleeps under his desk, until you end up with a grown man who can't tell you what he's feeling beyond "fine" or "bad."
My own path into this work started in my mid-20s. I grew up in the Midwest in a household where touch wasn't really alive and feelings weren't talked about. By the time I hit my teenage years I was locked in my body, anxious, not knowing how to bridge toward other people in the ways I needed. That pain eventually got me into men's groups and somatic work, and those two things genuinely changed what was possible for me.
We also got into what I see time and time again inside men's groups, the power of watching another man cry without collapsing, or hold his anger without becoming unsafe. That transmission is hard to put into words. But when a man sees another man standing in what I'd call dignity, fully feeling and still present, something shifts that no book or podcast could produce.
If you've been white-knuckling it for a while, wondering why connection keeps slipping through your fingers or why there's this low-grade restlessness you can't shake, I want to ask you something. What would it mean to stop managing it and start actually feeling it?
Read Full Transcript Full episode text for reading and search
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Hey there. This should be a polished ad for shield's Visa, but I'm in a hammock in Aruba, so we're doing this live. I used my Shields VISA for flights, hotels, even tomorrow's scuba trip. Every swipe earns points towards my rewards gift cards, which I use to buy these rad shades. Now, excuse me, my umbrella drink is melting. Get the card that gets you. Get these Shields Visa. Today, another hospital bill from the accident and another letter from the insurance company. Did you call them three times this week. I keep getting transferred. Nobody will tell me anything. Who is it?
Jason Lange: Postman Law.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Injury and accident attorneys.
Jason Lange: Put down the bills, hang up the phone.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): We'll handle the insurance company, help you
Jason Lange: find the right doctors, and be your one call for answers. Injured in an accident.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Postman Law delivers peace of mind.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): unless we win attorney advertising. Relax and let King Soopers Delivery handle your grocery shopping this week. We start with only the freshest items. Then we carefully pack your order in our refrigerated trucks so your food stays cool and fresh on its way to your door. And right now, you can save $30 on your first pickup or delivery order and get unlimited free delivery restrictions apply. See site for details. King Supers Fresh for everyone. Hey there, listeners. Welcome to Shit that Goes on on Our Heads, our podcast, where we normalize conversations around mental health. That's right, I'm Dirty Skittles. And alongside my amazing co host, Shu Rex, we're here to share stories and tips from our incredible guests. Each episode, we deep dive into struggles and triumphs of mental health, offering practical advice and heartfelt support because no one should feel alone in their journey. Join us as we break the stigma and build a community of understanding and compassion. Tune in and let's start talking about the shit that goes on in our heads. 3, 2, 1. Welcome back to another episode of Shit that Goes on in Our Heads. I'm here with the awesome Dirty Skittles. And today we have an amazing guest. Jason. Welcome to the podcast.
Jason Lange: Thanks so much for having me pumped to be here.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Yeah, I'm excited to get to learn about, like, what you do with men's mental health.
Jason Lange: Where should we begin? Yeah, you know, I'll start just very simple. Part of my mission is every man should be in a men's group. And we're talking here at the beginning of beginning of Men's Mental Health Month. And I think it's one of the antidotes to to the Looming crisis that so many men are in that is deep, right. It starts at a cultural level for so many men when they're young, right. In terms of the ways we raise boys differently from girls. And it goes all the way up to what produces, right. Men who are often in a lot of isolation and a lot of emotional pain and often don't even have the language to know how to talk about it. And so what I often see, certainly what was part of my journey is when we don't have the language to talk about the pain inside of us, we reach for things outside of us to try to change it. So that could be alcohol, weed, porn and masturbation, sex addiction, work addiction, tv, you name it. And so this idea of what, you know, I think the moment is calling for us men is to be allowed to have inner lives and interiority and learn how to communicate that so we can show up better in our relationships and communities and whatnot and frankly, just feel better.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): When did you, I guess, learn how to communicate?
Jason Lange: I wish I could say it was early. I would say I'm still in process. If you. If my wife was here right now, she would say, like, I still learn it, but I'm way better than I used to be. So, you know, part of my journey and what really brought me into this work was, you know, I'm a white guy raised in the lower middle class of the Midwest of the United States, and. And, you know, in the 80s, basically had all my security needs met, right? Stable food and shelter. But what I discovered as I became a teenager, so in my case I'm heterosexual, and I started to get attracted to girls, was I would get really uncomfortable. My body would lock up, I'd get kind of sweaty and anxious, and I didn't know how to talk to them. And then what I found as I got into those teenage years on top of that was I started to make male friends, thankfully, so I had some connection. But I noticed they were connected differently than me. They would, like horseplay, they would wrestle, which, at its basic level, they would touch each other, right? There was actual physical connection. And what all this started to illuminate for me in my teenage years was I was raised in a household of neglect, physical and emotional neglect, meaning my family, you know, they did the best they could. My parents were trying, but they did not bring physical closeness. Touch was not something that was alive in my household, let alone talking about feelings and what was going on inside. So I become a teenager, and I'm just basically locked in my body, numb not knowing how to talk. And it was so painful. It kind of kicked me off on a journey that I'm still on in a lot of ways. But that in my mid-20s, for me in particular, got me into men's groups and men's circles and. And somatic therapy for the first time in my life where I started to actually get connected to myself and what I was feeling, and then doing so in a circle, in a space where I was allowed to learn how to talk about it and not be shamed or ostracized or the things so many men are fearful of. If I. Well, if I'm vulnerable, you know, guys are going to make fun of me or attack me and. Or bully me. And that is a sad truth in reality, for a lot of men.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): What empowered you to, I guess, join or seek help in your 20s?
Jason Lange: Literally, just. I didn't know what else to do. So, you know, I was in my body, I was seeing my friends get into relationships, and no matter what I tried, I just couldn't do it. And it became more and more painful. And then as a man in particular, part of many of the cultural forces I was working against is the shame of being a late bloomer. I didn't kiss a girl till I was in college. I didn't get in my first relationships and have physical intimacy until later in my 20s. And by that time I had some good, solid male friends. But I was terrified to talk about that because for so many men, you know, if you haven't had sex at a certain age, you're. There's something wrong with you. I don't, you know, now, obviously, I don't think that, but that's like the cultural pressure. So I was just in so much pain. I was like, there's gotta be a better way. Like, literally, there has to be a way for me to move through my day and not be in so much discomfort. And I think, like a lot of men, I first went up into my head and I got super into philosophy and reading and trying to understand. And then that luckily kind of guided me to a place where I just got really lucky. Being in a community, in an area where the type of work I needed was available. And some of the men I was connecting with at the time kind of gently brought me in. And then things started to change and I started to build some of the skills and capacities that I think so many men do. Whereas now, you know, I have so many incredible men in my life that I'm much more able to talk about what's going on inside. And lo and behold, my mental health, my well being, they've all gone way up since then.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): And like, how hard, you know, like in those early years because, you know, when you're not taught that at home or when you don't get that at home, you know, you got super vulnerable and you're like, I am going to go find a way to get to fix myself because I'm tired of feeling this way. And like, yeah, that took a lot of foresight on your, on your part because like, you could have just ignored it and gone along your merry way and like, been miserable your entire life and instead now you've like, taken those life lessons and you've created this incredible movement and, you know, been following you guys. I'm so proud of everything you've done and I'm really proud of you. I'm proud of you for like, looking out for you because I'm sure it wasn't a conversation that you could have with your parents. Right, because, you know, there's a whole lot of uncomfortableness around that anyway. But, you know, finding these men that could help shape you. And I think it's just so, so true that, you know, men, even men that do get like, have the, those loving, feeling, touching families, still need some guidance from other men. I mean, yeah, I think everybody needs a mentor, whether you're a man or a woman. You know, everybody needs somebody you can learn from, you know, lean on, you know, share ideas. And so I'm really that. I think that's really cool what you did.
Jason Lange: Oh, thank you. Yeah. Yeah.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): She raises an interesting point. How did your parents, did you share with them in your 20s, like what you were doing?
Jason Lange: No, they were in a pretty different place. So it took me a while to change my relationships with them. And, you know, I think it probably started first with my mother. And honestly, it probably wasn't until my mid-30s in that I realized one of the things that makes growth work challenging is that once we become aware, we become kind of responsible. Meaning I became aware of the way my mom was raised, the family system, how it played out in us. And what that made me realize is she doesn't actually have the skills to come towards me in the way I want. I've been training in these skills, so it's kind of incumbent on me to open a new doorway if we want to have some different kind of connection. And I remember vivid, I was, I had been doing some work, was working with men and really got clear that there's, there's One of my ex evolutions is going to be changing how I relate to my mom and she's not going to do it. And so it literally came down to. I remember it was like a Tuesday night. I was like 34, 35 maybe. And I don't really call my parents a ton. If we did, it'd be like on Sundays there was kind of this groove. And so me calling her on a Tuesday night was like out of nowhere. And I could tell, you know, she kind of answered the phone and we were talking. And at the time I was living in Los Angeles, I had been pursuing a career as a filmmaker and it was quite hard. And I basically was just like, hey, you know, since moving out here, it's been really hard and it's been challenging and you have really supported me in a lot of ways. And I just want to say appreciate that and I love you. Had never said that to my mom before. And there was like a pause, kind of awkward, and then she was able to say it back. And since then we're able to say it to each other. Like it just, it changed it. Usually I'm still initiating. It's not kind of her first fluency, so to speak, but she does say it back now and then, you know, that kind of continued and our relationship has deepened in its own ways, particularly since I had kids. That's brought us much closer. She's been able to step in as grandma and then same thing with my parents. You know, my dad never quite got my work. He recently passed away. But what the work allowed me to do, what my growth allowed me to do, particularly about 10 years ago, I had to do a lot of anger work of the ways he wasn't able to show up for me and that I did have to go out and find guidance and teach myself and all these really painful things. And I'm so grateful I did that work back then because he passed earlier this year and I was able to just be present with him and really appreciate him for what he did try to bring and the love, you know, he was doing the best he could. And instead of having all that resentment built up, I had already been able to work a lot of it and come to terms with what he was able to offer me and what he wasn't. And because the resentment wasn't there, I was able to be a lot more present as he passed and just really appreciate the time I did have left for him. So it's one of the challenges I see, you know, with anyone in Growthworks. We start Growing and the people around us don't, you know, that can create some. Some different relationships in the future where we start to decide who we do we want to put our attention on.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): If you're open to sharing, what did you learn, like, when you went in for your 20s, like, what were some of the, I guess, exercises? Or how does that work?
Jason Lange: Like, I know nothing of what groups are, like, yeah, a couple things.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): What does that look like for you?
Jason Lange: First, honestly, to how to connect to my body, meaning myself. I think, like, a lot of men, I mean, really, anyone, but I think men in particular, it's really easy for us to just live from the neck up and always be thinking and ruminating and trying to fix and solve and analyze and read more books and listen to more podcasts. But what it misses is being in our body, like, actually being connected to what am I feeling in my body. And in the work I was trained in that, I now train men in emotions, right? They actually start as sensations in our bodies. So if we're not connected to our body, guess what? We're not really connected to our emotions. So what early men's groups and somatic work really taught me to do were to get into my body and simply connect to what I was feeling. Oh, this is what I'm feeling. I'm feeling a pit in my stomach. I'm feeling scared, or I'm feeling, like, heavy in my chest. I'm actually feeling sad. I'm feeling sad right now. Oh, that's what it is. I'm feeling sad right now. Like, sounds really simple, but to me, at the time, you know, the way I was raised, I didn't have the vocabulary, you know, many men, and I count myself in this group, when I was starting, our vocabulary was good, bad, and fine. How are you? I'm okay. I'm bad. I'm fine. And so it's hard to connect when we can't really talk with more nuance. And that's something I'm particularly passionate about, you know, as a father now and with kids, is that's part of what, ideally, I think our caregivers are supposed to give us, right? So, you know, my son's 18 months now, and he's starting to have some pretty big feelings. So, you know, I take the scissors away from him because they're not safe, and he gets red, he gets hot, he starts stomping, he screams. Now, he doesn't know what that is, right? But I'm able to drop down. My wife and I, we're both really good at this and say, wow, you're feeling really angry right now. You're feeling really angry because you want to play with the scissors and daddy isn't letting you. You're mad, right? And that's how the circuit starts to connect, right? Of, oh, this is what's happening inside me. You're right, I am mad. Right? And that simple skill is one. So many men I think in particular are just completely under trained in, in the therapeutic world they call that interoception, which is the awareness of what's happening inside your body. If I'm not aware of what's happening in my body, I can't communicate it, right? So this work really taught me to get into my body, to slow down, to get connected to my emotional experience. And then in the context of a group of men in particular, they're able to notice when I'm not connecting to it, right? So this thing of like, oh yeah, I'm kind of mad at da da da. And then I just keep going and they're like, slow down, go back. You just said you were really mad about that. Are you really mad about that? Yeah, I'm mad about that. So feel it, like actually feel you're mad about it. And then I get to feel it. And then that allows me to be present with it and eventually work with it in a different way. I definitely learned how to be vulnerable, right? How to share things in particular with other men. And now, you know, my spouse in a way that I was never taught of. Wow, it feels really scary to say this. I don't know how to say this, but this is what I want to do and feel really lucky. I got access to some of these tools when I was younger because now I work with a lot of men in particular who don't find this stuff till much later in life. And it has a cost, right on accumulated stress and relationships and so many different things. So it's never too late to do the work. But it's pretty amazing when like I'm working with like a 27 year old kid now and I'm like, oh my goodness, the fact that you're doing this now, like you are going to have it made moving forward because like you're doing some of the heavy lifting now that you know, again, a lot of men don't do till later in life because they think, oh, if I just work really hard and do the things, I'll be happy. And then midlife comes and they're like, wait, do I even want to be doing these things? What Have I done? Who am I? What do I want? And then you actually have to do this inner work anyway.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Hey there. This should be a polished ad for shield's Visa, but I'm in a hammock in Aruba, so we're doing this live. I used my shields visa for flights, hotels, even tomorrow's scuba trip. Every swipe earns points towards my rewards gift cards which I use to buy these rad shades. Now excuse me, my umbrella drink is melting. Get the card that gets you get these shields Visa today. And now for a bit of breaking news. Between your breaking news with me, the Geico Gecko, here are some things you ought to know today. People who switch their car insurance to geico save about $900 a year.
Jason Lange: Experts are calling that nice to know. Also, plants can hear when bees buzz.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): My ficus just heard that.
Jason Lange: And finally, animal experts have confirmed that
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): goats have regional accents.
Jason Lange: I'm getting a hint of Irish there.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): It feels good to get good news. It feels good to Geico. Sierra has all the best active and outdoor brands for the super athletic stuff like running gear for cruising up the trail and the super athletic ish stuff like fishing gear for chilling by the creek. Nice cast fitness apparel to push for for higher reps, you got this. And golf balls priced so you can afford to lose one or a few. Head to sierra or sierra.com for the brands you want at the prices that let you do it all. From athletic to athletish, Sierra's got it. Summer is here and King Soopers is your destination. For hot savings, find unique items at low prices with our exclusive brands. Fire up the grill with cookout classics like burgers. And don't forget delicious produce like fresh melons. Or treat yourself to summer's sweetest lineup with Kroger brand's limited edition all American ice cream collection. Whatever your summer plans, King Soopers makes it easy to enjoy high quality food at affordable prices. King Soopers fresh for everyone. What I think is really a great correlation here is I see how dirty Skittles raises her son and a lot of what you were talking about, she's already working with him on that. And so he's going to be like so set, you know, by the time he gets, you know, into his late teens, early 20s. Because like I know for men it's those years are really hard.
Jason Lange: Yes.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Between the ages of like 16 to 25. Because you're still trying to find who, find out who you are, where do you belong? And so dirty skills. I have to commend you. Because you're doing the right thing for him now. So you set him up for success, you know, in the next five to 10 years. And, Jason, I love what you're doing, too, because, like, it's so important. And there's so many men out there that are not in touch with themselves, and then they bring themselves to work, and they're giant dickheads, and they don't understand why they're giant dickheads because they've never been able to express, like, fully express what. What's really like, getting at them. And I think, you know, a lot of people, a lot of men that aren't in touch with their feelings are the people that are narcissists and misogynists and can't really, like, pinpoint what it is that makes them the way they are. And a lot of it does stem from the way that we are. We're brought up.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And again, this culture of so many boys and men are raised in the culture of, well, to be a man means to be invulnerable, right? So be tough, pick yourself up. Don't cry. Just get over it. Move forward. And this is part of the challenge for so many boys and men that often starts young, right? They've done research just observing how often boys and girls are parented differently, Right? Boy falls down, it's like, oh, get back up. You're fine. You're okay. Girl falls down, a little bit more attunement. Just, hey, you're probably in pain right now, and that's okay. You know, I'm here with you. And so what that does from a young age, actually, is even at that young age, it starts to teach boys. Hey, what's happening in your body? Ignore it. Override it with your head. Stop crying. Right? What's happening in your body? Ignore it. Override it in your head. Get into the school system. You know, young male bodies in particular, it seems to be they have a high need to move. They have a lot of kinetic bodily energy. They need to move. And they learn through movement and play and, you know, roughhousing. But that's not really how our school systems are set up. So what happens is, well, you can't stop moving. There must be something wrong with you. You're a bad kid. We need to medicate you, get you into some system, something like that. You know, there's some crazy research that shows a lot of the education gap that's showing up between young boys and girls right now. You can eradicate it with two things. Hold the boys back A year, because they emotionally mature slower and start the day with like two hours of physical activity, rigorous physical activity, and then all the differences kind of wipe out. But that same message, then it really goes into adolescent adolescence where other boys became the. Become the perpetrators.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Right.
Jason Lange: In groups, out groups, boys bodies are developing at a different pace. What many boys learn in locker room culture is stay cool. Don't share anything that could make you a target of any kind of bullying or ostracization. So just play it cool, play it cool. Whatever's happening inside, override it with your head. And then we get out into the workforce and, you know, say what you will, our culture has a bit of an obsession with, wow, he works 80 hours and sleeps under his desk. Isn't that great? Like, no. How do you do that? You have to override your body. Right. You have to push through it with your head. So there's this whole kind of trajectory boys are on that we have to fight against that says, no, what's happening in your body is really important and you can learn the skills to be in it. And it starts, like you said, at that young age. So the fact you're able to attune to your boy like that is giving him, I think, actually one of the killer skills that's going to make him really able to thrive in the world we're moving in. We're being able to be responsible for your nervous system is it's like a superpower now?
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Yes, that's literally. And I think it started at least for me, because I can relate to part of your story where, you know, I grew up very much similar in that, well, parents are workaholics. Yeah.
Jason Lange: There was nobody there to tell me
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): or to create that safe space that it was okay to have feelings.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): So I think because of that, I had always said it in my mind
Jason Lange: that when I'm a parent, I want
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): to do better for my kids. Right. I think we all parents set out for that, but it was deeper. I wanted to make sure that whether I had a boy or a girl, regardless the emotions that they felt, I wanted them to be able to identify it because I couldn't for so long. So that was where that sort of started. And it is very validating to hear you say some of this. I have selfishly a question because this is the.
Jason Lange: Sure.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): This is something I cannot crack with him. And it's probably actually going back to what you had said where society or you're raised to be a man, like, what does it mean to be a man? And there's this very toxic, like, way of telling somebody to be a man. And I'm at this point where I'm like, okay, he's able to have emotions, identify them, work through the emotion. But I keep getting this feedback from, like, his teachers or in school how sensitive he is.
Jason Lange: Almost like it's a bad thing to be sensitive.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Well, you know, he's just so sensitive. Right. That shit pisses me off.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): And it's to the point where now he's going to school with his male friends who are also calling him sensitive. And I want him to treat it as a superpower. Yes.
Jason Lange: So in the men's groups and all
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): the work that you've done, how do you learn confidence that, like, that's okay to do, that, like, it's okay to be vulnerable and gentle as a man and not have to be this toxic version of a man?
Jason Lange: Yeah. Well, I'll start. You know, this word gets a lot of flack in our culture right now. But what you're speaking to is the patriarchy, right? This idea that sensitivity is there's something lesser or wrong with it, and that impacts everybody. And, you know, the wild thing is it's not just men. Right. There's women out there, too, who kind of reinforce that, oh, you know, I want my man to be sensitive, and then he's finally sensitive. And they're like. Like, that actually happens to a lot of guys I work with where they get scared. So that's one of the things we're just working against that just says, hey. And, you know, two things come to mind. One is, and this is why there's. Thankfully, it's just, oh, man, the smallest seeds right now, but they're starting to blossom of a reintegration and a bringing back this idea that boys and girls too, but boys in particular need rites of passage. They do need to go through a journey from that boy to kind of man. And often all rites of passage is spending time with older men who are embodying the healthy versions of things. So you actually have an anchored role model of, oh, that's it. Right. The first man that ever really got me in my body and cracked me open and gave me access to an emotions in a way that I didn't know. It's so, so wild. I tell this story Now I was 26 and I was going into his group and. And I remember thinking, seeing him, that's what I want to be when I grow up. And at the time, I didn't know I was going to be doing this kind of work. So it wasn't the occupational thing, but it was the way he's being. His presence, his intention, the ability he communicates, and how he holds space, how he deals with conflict. I was like, whatever that is, I want to get there because I feel more relaxed being in this man's presence. And I think that's one of the great gifts of the healthy version of the masculine is it actually makes everyone feel safe. Just like, oh, yeah, great, we can just be ourselves here. And that is one of the great things I think, about men's groups in rites of passage work is getting exposure, right? That what I've seen is the fastest way for that transmission to happen is to be around it. And where the pain point is for so many boys, I think, is they never get to be around it. Mainstream culture does not give us this right? We get examples of kind of the action hero, invulnerable, I'm just tough as nails guys. Or we get kind of the sitcom dad who's like the butt of every joke. And neither of those are really showing a man who's standing in his dignity, in his power, but still has sensitivity. So, you know, potentially finding some kind of rites of passage program for him could be really powerful. And then the other thing that I'm just seeing more and more, which is great thread, because it. I don't know, it just kind of immediately deflates a lot of the. Some of the arguments is taking him to, or, I don't even know, like, going to a learning class or something, but getting him around martial artists, because really highly trained martial artists are some of the most sensitive people on the planet. Their bodies are very sensitive, their emotions are very sensitive. And it is so clear. And that environment, that's part of what makes them effective. If you're not sensitive, if you're not tuned into your body, you are not very good at martial arts. Even the Navy Seals, right? This thing that's kind of championed in our culture is a paradigm they're extremely sensitive to each other, to their environment, and it is not a weakness. The thing that we just. Often I work with men in this work and in men's work we talk about is there's kind of two extreme poles. And this is where most men end up. There's collapse, which is like, I'm overwhelmed, so I collapse into myself, and I don't know what to do. I'm frozen, I'm scared, or whatever that might be, or I'm in shame. And then there's the. Unfortunately, the far More common one, which is posture. Right. What do you mean? I'm fine, I'm tough. I got it. No, do that. And I'm actually putting on a suit of armor. Right. Pushing out in that middle space is what we call dignity. It's, hey, I have feelings, I'm impacted, and yet I'm here. I'm really sad right now. I want this, I don't want that. And so I'm feeling the full emotional experience, but I'm still able to hold myself and take action. And again, this is kind of where I don't have a great answer. Other than maybe getting them around. Some men is. It's so easily visible when we see another man doing it. So I get this all the time. When men come in and for the first time in their lives, they see a man cry, who's not collapsed, who in the process of crying, they're like, wow, I actually think you're super powerful. Like, I can't believe how courageous that was. Like, the way you just felt that, like, they get lit up or. The other big one is the first time a man is around another man who knows how to consciously be in touch with his anger, which means I can be angry. I can feel it fully, and yet it doesn't feel unsafe to be around me. And that transmission when men see that of like, I didn't know that was possible. I thought I either had to be an aggressive, outward facing kind of caveman, like maybe my dad was, or the kind of collapsed. I just. I don't ever stand up for myself. But when a man's there and he's like, hey, I'm really mad right now, yet I feel totally safe being with him because it's so clear he's in touch with his emotion, but he's not being run with it. There's a huge difference. Run by it. So, you know, in some sense, this is the challenge of, you know, the work you're doing is you're pushing against a culture that does not support what you're trying to do and doesn't have a lot of role modeling.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Yeah, that literally the, like, I had this moment of like, oh, that makes total sense. So, like, that makes total sense. I'm very much, like, so involved that I want to figure it out. Like, I literally started that with, like, I can't crack this code because he does. He needs that, that male figure. And I feel like that's just hearing that made it like, oh, okay, this is a dad moment. Like, I need to step back, let
Jason Lange: dad do the Thing.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Dad can crack the code and show him those things. So that makes total sense.
Jason Lange: Thank you. Thank you.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Not just your. Not just his dad, but your dad. Grandpa.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Because as Jason was talking, I remember some of those interactions you told me that, you know, he's had with Nugget and, like, just, what a good guy. Especially now that he's retired, because he's a lot, you know, he's a lot more relaxed, I guess you're gonna say. But like, I. And I can see that as we were growing up too, like with my cousins and my brothers and how our interactions with our grandfathers were way different than our own fathers and how our grandfathers really wanted to teach us and things like that. So, Jason, my question that I have is how soon can men or teenagers join men's groups?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I tend to specialize in, you know, kind of twenties and on, but like I said, there are more and more. There's more and more work happening around. The earlier we catch boys, the better. Right. One of the crisises we're in is because there hasn't been a lot of voices for healthy masculinity in our culture. What's left is this extremely empty vacuum that the kind of red pill manosphere stuff has started to fill. And so, thankfully, you know, there's starting to be more awareness that we gotta get into the, you know, we gotta get a ground level soon, some mentorship. You know, I know programs where they're training coaches because that's kind of like the frontline defense in a lot of ways in our culture are people who coach sports and teaching them that, hey, you get to bring the inner experience online and it's okay. And guess what? When that comes online, kids tend to perform better, right? When they don't have all that stress. You know, there was that wild. I don't know if either of you followed, I cannot remember her name right now, but there was the wild story of the. The woman who I think won the gold medal in figure skating this year at the Winter Olympics, right? She was like a kid and was going through the system, and it was just grinding her out because it was all about outcome and performance. And she quit. She just literally quit. Went to school, did her own thing, just had fun. And then she got creatively inspired to come back and she won the gold medal, not because, like, she was trying to perform, but because she just fell back in love with it. And that was coaching that kind of helped bring her there. So I know there's training there, there's definitely work Happening with these different rites of passage programs throughout the country. I'm meeting more and more men who are leading those now. So it seems to be, you know, around the age of like 11, 12, 13 are some of the earliest things I found. Which it's not like super explicit work at that point, but it's like, go out into nature, be around older men, do activities, sit around a fire, hear the men talk about their inner world, which suddenly makes it seem like, oh wait, if that guy I just spent all day with that I think is super cool because he knows how to X, Y or Z is talking about being sad, maybe I can talk about being sad. And it really starts to change it from that early age. So I think there's going to be more and more energy in that direction coming soon. So in some sense, you can't start too early. A lot of times I'll work with fathers who are struggling, their sons in particular are struggling. And I just tell them, get them offline in nature, just offline, no tech in nature, and just spend time with them. And oftentimes kids will start to open up, their nervous systems will start to regulate because, you know, it doesn't matter if you're a boy or a girl. What most kids just want more than anything else is presence. Just one presence. And that's one of the great things we can bring in those environments.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): I love this, I love that we're having this conversation because I think before hearing you speak, all I knew of like men's groups and like anything that men would do together was like what you'd see in movies. And like kind of to your point earlier, it's like a butt of a joke. Like it's not, I guess, serious, like, but it makes so much sense now having that you share. So, yeah, I do see the importance here. Like this, this especially growing up, not having that, right? Like being able to connect with, with that later on in life. I totally get it. How has it impacted you, do you think, as a dad?
Jason Lange: Oh, just like, couldn't get. I. I don't even know. I could fill up two hours alone. I mean, there's both, there's two ways. One is being connected to dads, to other dads, and particularly older men who are at a different phase of the child rearing journey has been unbelievably valuable, right? Just the, you know, when you first time you have a kid, it's like, hey, here's this little thing. You're now responsible for it. Good luck. And it's like what I Go home. And nobody like, ah. So having people to talk to of like, hey, I'm really scared about this thing. Is this a big deal? Is this. And they're like, no, this is fine. Or this is fine. Just so relaxing to know that I had a place to go for support when I needed it. So that alone made me a better father, as does the groups themselves. Give me a place to unwind my stress and tension. When my stress and tension is unwound, guess what? I get to be more present with my kids, which unwinds their stress and tension. So it helps me stay healthy and present, which allows me to be a better father. And the most exciting one is my kids get to spend time around the men I've cultivated in my life. So my father, like I said, passed. He was pretty ill for a long time. So my kids don't really have grandparents in a lot of ways. Some of where they're getting that is my community of men, older men, they can look up to that they're going to be off conversations with that I think is just so important and profound in a lot of ways. And you know, in a lot of ways, maybe a simpler way I can put this is men's group is the place I get to go to be restored so I can come back to my family and be present and energized and loving and all the different things I want to do. But if I'm not caring for myself, then I get cranky, frustrated, resentful, agitated, tired. You know, all the things so many of us are dealing with. Because parenting takes a lot of, wow,
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): what a gift you've given your kids too. You know, not just your kids, but yourself and your wife and your community. And I love how passionate you are about it. And, you know, this is for you, Durie Skittles. I mean, I know you're the mom, but like, you're instilling all this in Nugget now and again. What a gift, right? Because think about like, where what my generation is. I'm easily 20 years older than both of you and like, that was not something that happened back in the day. It was all like that woo shit. And they're like, oh, you're not making me go to therapy. I'm fine. Okay, listen, you need therapy. But I think that as the generations go on, it's becoming more prevalent. And I just kind of wish that there was like men's groups at work so that men could talk to each other about things that are going on in the workplace.
Jason Lange: Yeah, even that I had a company reach out maybe like a year ago, a man who was in, honestly, like I couldn't even tell you which one. A big kind of multinational insurance organization, you know, with offices everywhere. And that was happening. They reached out to me because they're like, hey, you know, we're doing this thing where men are able to, you know, meet online. It was virtual for like two hours. And basically having men's groups because we realize the better state we're in, the better we do at our jobs. Right? It's kind of this wellness thing. So again, it's very early. Not a ton of organizations doing that, but it's starting to, I think, spread fast. And people are, men in particular, I think are waking up that, hey, just grinding through life is not sustainable and it makes us grumpy and not fun to be around and sometimes dangerous. And so the more, you know, a big part of what I just work mentally work with men on in a lot of ways is really the greatest gift you can give the world right now as a man is to take responsibility for your pain. To take responsibility for your pain and do the work you need to do to not keep transmitting it. And you know, if every man was doing that, I think we would all live in a much safer, healthy, healthier and happy world.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Hey there. This should be a polished ad for shield's Visa, but I'm in a hammock in Aruba, so we're doing this live. I used my Shields VISA for flights, hotels, even tomorrow's scuba trip. Every swipe earns points towards my rewards gift cards which I use to buy these rad shades. Now excuse me, my umbrella drink is melting. Get the card that gets you get these Shields Visa today. Relax and let King Soopers Delivery handle your grocery shopping this week. We start with only the freshest items. Then we carefully pack your order in our refrigerated trucks so your food stays cool and fresh on its way to your door. And right now, you can save $30 on your first pickup or delivery order and get unlimited free delivery. Restrictions apply. See site for details. King Supers Fresh for everyone.
Jason Lange: Life Experience is an excellent teacher. It's time you get the recognition you
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): deserve for those hard earned lessons.
Jason Lange: Purdue Global values the experience working adults bring to the table. Whether you're interested in a rapidly growing
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): field like cybersecurity, business, nursing, or any of Purdue Global's other 170 programs, earning the credentials you need may be faster than you think. Try our experience calculator to see if you could be eligible for course credit
Jason Lange: and start your comeback today at purdueglobal.edu. i sold my car in Carvana last night. Well, that's cool.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer down to the penny.
Jason Lange: They're picking it up tomorrow.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Nothing went wrong. So what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothing. I'm waiting for the catch.
Jason Lange: Maybe there's no catch. That's exciting.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow.
Jason Lange: You need to relax.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): I need to knock on wood.
Jason Lange: Do we have. What is this table wood?
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): I think it's laminate.
Jason Lange: Okay.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Yeah, that's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on car. Pickup fees may apply. I have two questions for you.
Jason Lange: If you could go back to a
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): younger version of yourself, give that younger version version some advice, what would you say? And how old are you?
Jason Lange: Sure, I would probably go back to, let's see, man, so many ages. But right now I'm thinking about, yeah, probably just my early 20s when I was kind of feeling the most lost. And I would just say, just relax.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Right?
Jason Lange: You're on the right path.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): And.
Jason Lange: And I think for a lot of men, for me at that time, there was like a it has to happen now thing. It was just like, no, just trust, just keep showing up, keep connecting. And more than anything else, keep getting better at asking for help. More game changing than anything else in my life as a man of just like, wait, I could suffer alone in this and try to figure it out for the next three months. Or I could just ask someone for help and then they're like, oh, you just do this. And I'm like, oh, that would have taken me, that used to take me months to, you know, ruminate over. So yeah, I would, I would say something like that of just, it's okay, you're okay, you're not broken, you're not messed up. It's going to turn out fine. Okay.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): What has been the hardest lesson in your life that you've had to learn so far?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say that it never ends. What I mean by that is the work, it just the work of inner growth. It never ends. Solve one problem and like another one comes along. And certain wounds that, you know, we all carry in some ways they leave scar tissue, you know, and it was a challenge, I certainly felt. And now I guide other men through. If you do some deep piece of work and you think you fixed the thing and, oh, I'm never gonna do that again. I'm never gonna treat my kids like that again or say that thing to my partner or treat myself like that away again. And, okay, I'm fixed, right? And then three months, you get a bad night's sleep, someone cuts you off in traffic, you know what? And then it's like, oh, hey, that part of me's still here. I thought I'd fix that. And then for a while that was like, well, I'm so broken. I thought I fixed it. I couldn't even fix it, right? And then that would lead to its own kind of depression in a sense. But now it's just more like, oh, no. It's just. This is just the way it is. It's just like a continual process. You keep working things, you do the best you can and kind of let go. And so for me, it's been this, you know, wonderful process in some sense of the paradox of the work never ends, yet I keep doing it just like you do the best you can, and it's never going to end. So there's nowhere to actually get to. There's just, okay, how can I be more and more whole, more and more myself? And again, more and more, for me particularly, just learn to ask for help and share what's going on inside me.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Thank you. So my questions are, if your anxiety had a theme song, what is it and why?
Jason Lange: Oh, yeah, that's great. If my anxiety had a theme song, it would be, you know, it would be like one of those really cheesy 80s horror movie themes, you know, where it's just like, when my anxiety gets going, that's what it feels like. Like, wow, threat level maximum. Nothing is safe. Be on alert. You never know, you know what's going to come around the next corner. So not necessarily vocals, but more of like a, you know, where they would use like the synths and it'd just be like a couple tones. Like, man, those. It'd be something like that.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): And so, Jason, you know, you're helping all these men, but what do you do for yourself as far as self care and self love and, you know, for everybody out there? They are not buzzwords. You really do need to be taking care of yourself. So I'm interested to find out what you do.
Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, first and foremost, I go to my men's groups. That is the place that probably restores me the most. I see one group locally twice a month, and then I'm a junkie. So I have two other groups I meet with virtually at various points. So I'm Connecting with other men that I'm really fond of in my life and are really fond of me. And then I love just getting offline in the nature, hiking, hot tubs, saunas, massages, when I can, are extraordinarily good. And one of my favorite pastimes is just going to a movie alone. I just love getting into a nice air conditioned theater, turn off all my devices and just let go of life for two hours and then kind of put myself together and come back and then eating well, sleeping. You know, the older I get, the more it becomes just like what I kind of call the boring work of life. Of, like, get enough sleep, eat pretty well, move my body multiple times a week. If I'm doing those three things, I'm feeling pretty good in life. And they're not necessarily the fun, sexy things that they can sell you on Instagram, but they're the things that move the needle. I have found more than anything else. So there's a certain process in my life where I'm more and more appreciating the simple state of sobriety. I'm here, I'm not in pain, I have energy. Great, give me as much as I can of that.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): I love all of this so much. So how can our listeners find out more about you?
Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. Best way to keep up with me, you can find my socials, my own podcast where I talk about men's groups, men's work, all of this stuff, emotions NonStop. Is that evolutionary.men. so it's not.combut.men. and on there you can see. Yeah, I have lots of free stuff, written podcasts, written stuff, programs, men's groups. And, you know, like I said, my passion is every man should be in a men's group. And there's a contact form on there as well. So, you know, as you grow your listenership, if there's men out there or people who support men, send them my way. Because you don't even have to work with me. I'm very well plugged into the community in the world now. And if you're like, hey, here's what's going on for me, I live here, I'm looking for something. I generally can kind of find the right thread for you to pick up and find what's local to you or what's virtual for you, because I just. Yeah, I think it's the biggest leverage point us men have on culture right now is getting into community like this and learning to be present.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Wonderful. This has been such an awesome conversation. Thank you for joining us Yeah, I learned a lot.
Jason Lange: Thanks so much for having me helping get the word out.
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): Beautiful. Thank you. Hi all. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I'm G. Rex And I'm Dirty Skittles. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review this podcast. We'd love to listen to your feedback. We can't do this without you guys. It's okay to be not okay. Just make sure you're talking to someone. Hey there. This should be a polished ad for shield's Visa, but I'm in a hammock in Aruba so we're doing this live. I used my shield's Visa for flights, hotels, even tomorrow's scuba trip. Every swipe earns points towards my reward gift cards which I use to buy these rad shades. Now excuse me, my umbrella drink is melting. Get the card that gets you. Get these shields Visa today. Summer is here and King Soopers is your destination. For hot savings, find unique items at low prices with our exclusive brands. Fire up the grill with cookout classics like burgers. And don't forget delicious produce like fresh melons. Or treat yourself to summer's sweetest lineup with Kroger brand's limited edition All American Ice cream collection. Whatever your summer plans, King Soopers makes it easy to enjoy high quality food at affordable prices. King Supers fresh for everyone at Credit Union of Colorado. Banking doesn't have to be like this big national banker here. Just saying we'd like to apologize to you for that thing we did. Was it selling your information? Canceling your personal loan? Who can say? That's for the lawyers to figure out. So just know it's not going to happen again until it does again. At Credit Union of Colorado, we have better interest rates and seamless mobile banking, all while having a heart. Credit Union of Colorado Honestly Good learn more@ HonestlyGood.org federally insured by NCUA Afrobecha Los de wall Deals and lows Obtain gratizune ramienta de vault selecta de veinte
Jason Lange: voulcos Max al compra unqui de batteria de. If you like the show, please take
Host (Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads): a moment to rate review and subscribe. Subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.
