Most men spend their entire adult lives being rewarded for leaving their bodies. And the cost of that doesn't show up all at once. It accumulates quietly, in the rumination, the health problems they ignore, the relationships where their partner says "I can't feel you."
I sat down with Anuradha Varma on Swishing Mindsets to talk about why embodiment is such a specific and urgent challenge for men, and what it actually takes to change.
We covered a lot of ground in this one. We talked about how men get conditioned out of their bodies from childhood, the research on how "manhood" is defined by behavior rather than biology, and what that does to a man's nervous system over decades. The man box is real, and it starts early.
We also went deep on shadow work. What it actually is, not the vague way people throw that term around. Why it's nearly impossible to do alone. And why so many men are carrying decades of unprocessed grief, fear, and shame that's quietly running the show from underneath.
I shared my own story in this one, which I don't always do on other people's shows. Growing up without any real emotional world modeled for me, hitting my 20s and realizing I genuinely didn't know how to be close to people, and what finally moved the needle. Somatic therapy. Men's groups. Learning to inhabit my body instead of just using it as a vehicle to carry my head around.
And then we got into why men's groups matter so much, which is really the heart of the conversation. Not as a nice-to-have. As a necessity. Men were not built to carry what modern life demands of them without real relational support at their back.
If you've ever wondered why you keep doing the thing you said you'd stop doing, or why you feel more at home in your thoughts than in your life, this conversation is for you.
What would change for you if you stopped trying to figure out your life and started actually feeling it?
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Anuradha Varma: Hi, welcome to Swishing Mindsets. This is Anuradha, and I'm speaking to Jason Lange from the US He's a men's embodiment coach, group facilitator, and an evolutionary guide. So I leave it to Jason to explain what this all means. So tell me, Jason, what is an evolutionary guide? And first of all, what is a men's embodiment coach?
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah, so they're, they're definitely related. Evolutionary guide I just use as a kind of fancy word for coach, in a sense of helping men, in my case, evolve and really help guide them through their own journey. Right. A big part of the work I do is, you know, the challenge with, with any kind of growth is only you as an individual can do it, right? And your journey is unique. But we all often need mentors or guides along the way of, hey, here's how I climbed that mountain, right? Here's what worked for me. I've been through that territory, but you still have to climb it, right? That's kind of the jam of that. So I like to support men and, you know, into unfolding into their deepest, highest, greatest selves. And embodiment coaching is specifically really important for men because it's the process of coming down out of our heads and learning to inhabit and fully embody our actual physical self, including emotions. And for, I think, a lot of men in particular, but, you know, really, anyone these days, it's very easy to live just up in your head, stuck in your thoughts. And so many men I work with have that challenge that they spend most of their attention and time up in their thoughts, ruminating. And that has big consequences for their relationships and connections. And for, you know, many women I know and I have talked to, they. They have this experience. If they can feel right when a man is just living from the neck up, like, literally his energy is just here and what it means when he's actually grounded and present and connected to his full body. So embodiment is that process of fully coming into our bodies as men. And for a lot of us guys, it's a challenge because we're just never really taught how to do that.
Anuradha Varma: Yeah, I get it. But I still want to ask, you know, women can also live up in their heads. Right. So how is it different for a man? Absolutely.
Jason Lange: Yeah. Yeah. I think for men, a lot of times anyone can live up in their head and be stuck. But for a lot of men, they. They have been taught that their value is fixing things for others. So. Right. This is a common relationship dynamic that is often a pain point that, you know, in this case a heterosexual relationship, the feminine partner brings something that's distressing her and men gravitate towards our head to immediately rather than being with her in the emotional experience. How. How do I fix it? How do I get her out of that? So I'm going to start launching into solutions or plans or did you just try this or did it. Maybe you thought about this? And that's very strong for a lot of men and for guys in particular, I think it hits a little harder. Even though it's possible for men and women, I think it hits a little harder because of how we're culturally raised as men. Obviously, different cultures around the world, it's a little different, but there are some universals. And we talk about this in men's work around this idea of the man box that most cultures, most communities, have a strict box of behavior men are expected to fall into. And if they're not, they're not considered a man. Right. And so, you know, the biggest one of this is, I'm not saying this is the right thing, but this is how most men are raised is vulnerability, is weakness. And to be a man means to be tough, to be strong, to be resilient, to pick yourself up by the bootstraps, to never ask for help, to not be vulnerable, to not be weak. And men get indoctrinated with this from a pretty young age, actually. And they've done research studies. Right. This one really blew me away that they interviewed both men and women. So they did this big poll around a really important transition point. And it was basically what marks the transition From a boy to becoming a man. And what marks the transition from a girl becoming a woman. And I'm not saying this is right, but both men and women reported that for girl to woman, they basically just pointed to physical attributes. Her physiology changed, right? Her body developed, she got her monthly cycle. She's a woman now. When it came to boys, to men, so to speak, it was not based on their body, how physically mature there was. They were, it was based on their behavior, how they were showing up in their communities, their level of responsibility in the life. And so we hear this term all the time right now, boys, there's a failure to launch, right? He's still a boy, he's in a man's body, but he acts like a boy. And that's part of this kind of cultural conditioning that we get that, you know, manhood is based on behavior more than physiology. And that behavior starts at a really young age in that, you know, I still see it, thankfully, it's changing. It does happen to boys and girls, but they show that often there are parenting differences, right? And how we parent a young girl and how we parent a young boy. Young girl falls down. Oh, my God. Are you okay? Did that hurt? What do you. Do you need anything? Do you need soothing or comfort? Young boy falls down, you're okay, get back up. You're tough. It's okay. Just get back out there, get on the playground. And it's not that that's all bad, but from a young age, boys start to receive this message. And you know, one of the most poisonous, one many men I have experienced is, stop crying, stop crying, it's okay. What that signals to a young boy's nervous system from a very young age is, is what's happening inside your body doesn't matter, override it with your head. Then we put boys into, most boys into like some kind of mainstream schooling. And what they have found is, right, male bodies, young male bodies, they have a lot of energy, they need to move. They're very kinesthetic. Again, this is at the population level. Individual boys and girls can obviously vary, but generally boys need to move. They're very active, they have a lot of energy, right? I, I have a young 18 month old and he's so much more physical than my daughter ever was at that time. But we get into school and the way the system's set up, right, is well, sit still, pay attention. Listen, if you can't sit still, pay attention. Particularly here in like, where I'm in the States, pretty quickly, boys start to get a Diagnosis of their troublemakers. They have adhd, they can't pay attention. What they found in, again, research studies is that there has been an emerging education gap in boys and girls and how they're doing. And particularly at the young ages, you can essentially eradicate the gap that's showing up in testing with two things. Hold boys back a year because they emotionally mature a little slower and start the school day with an hour of vigorous physical activity. Get them running, get them in their bodies, get the energy out, and then they can sit still, right? It's much easier to calm down. But again, in the schooling system, they often start to get this, this signal that, hey, that, that urge to move in your body, ignore it, override it with your head. Then boys get into grade school, eventually hit adolescence, start to get into puberty, their bodies start to develop, the peer group comes into play, and the idea of kind of competition among boys becomes a real thing. His boy. You know, some boys bodies are developing at different speeds. Some guys get more success, some don't. What boys often quickly learn, so to speak, in the locker room is don't give any other boys or men ammo around your vulnerability because they will ostracize you, bully you, make fun of you. These are real things and so fit in. How do we fit in? We play it cool. We ignore what's going on inside, right? And this continues. And then we get out into the workplace in, in a big way. And, you know, this goes for, unfortunately, men and women, but the workplace, at least here in the States, right? What do we celebrate men for? Oh, my God, he works 80 hours a week. He sleeps under his desk. He's so hard, such a hard worker. What does that come at the cost at our bodies, our emotional and physical health? So it's not that women never live up in their head, but culturally, men are actually rewarded for being disembodied, right? For being tough, for just keeping going, for not being emotional. And that catches up to men over time. And so men need training of what it means to connect to their bodies, to connect to their emotions and hearts because a. If nothing else, it's extremely important for relationships, right? And some of the major work I have to do with men is they get into partnership and their woman's like, I can't feel you. You're like an emotional robot. Like, yeah. And that ties into all of this because if you've never been taught to be in your body, how are you going to share what's happening inside of you? And so many men don't have the vocabulary or, or even the inner sense of what's happening in their bodies. And this has so many downstream consequences, one of which is for a lot of guys, because they don't. Dear America, get to Toyota's Independence Day sales event. Cause the fireworks start here. Toyota's got plenty of bang for your buck. Fire up your savings with more miles per gallon on the all hybrid Camry and the all hybrid RAV4. The tundra and Tacoma put on the show with legendary Toyota value that keeps glowing long after the smoke clears. Find [email protected] Toyota let's go places. Hi, this is Dave Logan. After a Colorado storm, you'll see out of state companies show up and then disappear just as quickly. That's not who you want working on your home. Hidden exterior damage can really be costly if you miss the insurance claim window. Advanced Exteriors is locally owned with 20 years in business right here in the state of Colorado. They specialize in exterior hail restoration and help handle the process all the way through. They've been with team Dave Logan for over 12 years, have earned my gutter endorsement. Call 303-756-roof or visit advanced exteriors.com they're not intimate with their inner experience. They've never taught been taught how to be in their bodies or how to process or share an emotion when they're not feeling good inside. I would say men in particular will reach for things outside of them to try to change their inner state. Alcohol, weed, porn, masturbation, sex, overworking tv. To, to try to regulate the inner experience. Now again, at an individual level this could change. But at a population level, women seem to just have a little bit more fluency emotionally and capacity to just connect. Right. Like my, you know, I have a two kids, my wife and I are quite busy and and my wife's kind of constantly got a thread going with other women in her life. Just checking in. It might be text message, might be chatting. I think that's just kind of more in the field. Whereas many men I work with, right. This was particularly strong in Covid if they weren't on a call with me or something or didn't have a spouse or a family, they weren't connecting with anyone. They might have a best friend, but they haven't talked to them in five years because it's just not part of how we're taught to relate. We're taught to relate when there's something we're going to do together. There's not something we're doing together. We don't share. And so all this stuff adds up into. Men are, in a lot of ways, just unprepared for the environment we're now being raised in.
Anuradha Varma: Yeah, I like what you're saying every. It's true, you know, across cultures. I mean, I'm in India and it's true here too, you know, and now there's a lot of conversation, thankfully, about, you know, boys can cry and boys like pink. It doesn't mean that, you know, I mean, boys should not wear pink. Boys can play with kitchen sets, things like that, you know, and I think little boys do like playing with kitchen sets, so.
Jason Lange: Totally, you know. Yeah, yeah. And a lot of that's happening.
Anuradha Varma: Yeah.
Jason Lange: You're in the States. Go ahead.
Anuradha Varma: Yeah, no, I just. I just find it very interesting the way you're talking about, you know, in the body we feel things and women are more in tune with it and men are disconnected from the body. And I think I saw on your website, I saw some testimonials where, you know, people have got in touch with the inner child and all that. I mean, those are terms, you know, these days. But, you know, the way you're explaining, what does it mean, you know, for men who are listening in, you know, to be out of touch with their body, what does it actually show up as? And how can you listen to your body?
Jason Lange: Sure, yeah. I mean, symptoms of it particularly. This starts to hit men really heavy in, I would say middle age, but it's depression, fatigue, autoimmune disorders, physical ailments start to become the result of being disconnected from our bodies for so long. Right. And, you know, it's. It's a known thing again, it's a stereotype. It's not all men, but a lot of men, they resist going to the doctor, taking care of their bodies, getting checkups. I hear from so many wives, they're so exhausted, having to hound their partners of like, hey, you need to go get that looked at. But men, we just don't want to look. We don't want to be in our body. And so the other thing is just, it's rumination. Right. When we're not in our body, we tend to live up in our head. And that's where so many men over analyze things, overthink things, get into anxiety and analysis, paralysis, just constantly trying to figure out what's the right thing to say or do. And it has a huge toll on men long term. And why, again, in addition to all that patterning, you know, men receive, we talk about. That is again, the other Reason a lot of men spend time up in their heads is because when you're in your head, you rarely have to feel what's in your body. And guess what lives in the body? Emotions. Grief, shame, fear. Things that men are really encouraged not to feel. You know, for a lot of cultures, the one kind of emotion that's considered manly is anger. It's like the one thing, okay, well, he gets angry, that's okay. But the rest, men just don't know how to deal with. So they, they kind of live up here so they don't have to feel down here. Because in the work I do, right, all emotions start as physical sensations. So if you're not tuned in to the physical sensations in your body, you're not going to be tuned in to your emotions. And if you're not tuned into your emotions, you're going to have a much harder time advocating for yourself, getting into healthy relationships and just taking care of yourself. Right? So many men I know, they grind. They just push and push and push and wake up one day and wonder why they're having some kind of health crisis because they were just ignoring the signs of, wow, I'm not getting enough sleep. I'm not taking care of myself. I'm spending too much time alone. All of these different things that really wear guys out. Dear America, get to Toyota's Independence Day sales event because the fireworks start here. Toyota's got plenty of bang for your buck. Fire up your savings with more miles per gallon on the all hybrid Camry and the all hybrid RAV4. The tundra and Tacoma put on the show with legendary Toyota value that keeps glowing long after the smoke clears. Find [email protected] Toyota let's go places. Hi, this is Dave Logan. After a Colorado storm, you'll see out of state companies show up and then disappear just as quickly. That's not who you want working on your home. Hidden exterior damage can really be costly if you miss the insurance insurance claim window. Advanced Exteriors is locally owned with 20 years in business right here in the state of Colorado. They specialize in exterior hail restoration and help handle the process all the way through. They've been with team Dave logan for over 12 years. Have earned my gutter endorsement. Call 303756, roof or visit advanced exteriors.com
Anuradha Varma: yeah, because they're just soldiering on, ignoring all the science.
Jason Lange: Yeah, it's a great word for it. Yeah.
Anuradha Varma: Yeah. So, Jason, I'd love to get some examples of, you know, people you worked with. But before that, I think I'D like to know about you, you, how you came into this work and, you know, whether there has been a process of unlearning and learning for you as well in this.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I came into the work because I needed it to function and survive. So I grew up in the Midwest of the United States, male, lower middle class. So white guy. Had a lot of privilege in my life and had basically all of my basic security needs met. Right. Growing up there was stable food, stable shelter. But what I discovered once I became an adolescent and started getting out of the house more, so to speak, and getting into relationships with others was essentially my family didn't have any inner world. They didn't know how to connect physically or emotionally. So there was a lot of neglect on the emotional and physical side of things that showed up very strongly for me, particularly when I got interested in my case, I'm heterosexual, in women. Like, suddenly I was going through puberty. I had all this energy and desire, but I would get extremely anxious around girls. I would actually feel uncomfortable and get sweaty in my body, get really stuck in my head. And I did not know how to connect. And then I started making male friendships at a young age. And I started to notice the. The guys around me, they connected in a different way than I did. They would horse play, they would wrestle, they would kind of grab each other. And there was like a physical connection there, even with other men that I didn't have. And as my body would get close to people, I would get extremely uncomfortable because it just was not used to touch and it was not used to sharing my inner world at all. And I carried a lot of anxiety and it was really painful. As the older I got, the. The more it didn't change, the more shame I carried about it as well. Right. So I'm going into my mid-20s. I had only kissed one girl. I had never had a relationship. And it started to create this narrative that, hey, there's something wrong with me because I see everyone around me having relationships. Why can't I? And it just got so painful that I was like, I need help, right? There's got to be a different way to do this. And that led me on a long journey of growth that really ended up taking me to two things that transformed me. Discovering somatic therapy, so body based therapy. And then getting into my first men's groups where I had the experience of deep relational presence with other men and actually learning how to talk about what was going on inside of me. And as I did those two things, my life started to radically transform. And I just got so deep into it. At some point, guys started asking me like, hey, can we come to your men's group? Because I was in one for my own well being and it was, we didn't have room, it was full. So I had, I started leading them for other men and discovered I really loved doing it. That coming from a place of a lot of disconnection in my life, I know what the cost of that is. And so I'm very passionate about helping get other men connected and make this switch in their minds that, oh, I don't have to do everything alone, it's okay to get help. And in fact, the more support I have at my back, the more I'm going to be able to do the things I want to do in life that. Because that just tends to be how it goes. So I love the work and it was transformative for me, which is kind of what got me into it.
Anuradha Varma: Great. So tell me, you know, you've also mentioned shadow work. First of all, thank you for sharing. You know, I mean, it's, this is intimate things about your life. So thank you so, so generously sharing, you know, that with us. And tell me you've talked about shadow work. You know, I was reading your profile and so what does shadow work and how does it work and what does it do for your men's group?
Jason Lange: Yeah, so shadow works, really the process, there's all kinds of shadow work. You know, just like we say, hey, do you meditate? And you're like, yeah, and it's okay. What kind of meditation, right? There's so many different types. There's a lot of different types of shadow work. The. But at a high level, shadow work is really the process of taking what's unconscious in our body, mind, our presence, our way of being, and bringing it into the forefront, into the consciousness. So that patterns and behaviors and choices we often make without conscious awareness, we get to start to see them. So. Right. The joke is, and why it's so important relationally, it's actually pretty hard to do shadow work alone. Because if we're sitting here and you're like, hey, you got this big shadow. And I'm like, what are you talking about? I don't see any shadow. Because as I turn right, it's always behind me. I'm like, there's no shadow here. But to you it's super obvious. You're like, no, you got a huge shadow behind you. So shadow often gets revealed in relationship. It's often hard for us to see the water we're swimming in, right? Until suddenly we pop out and we're like, wow, I've been in this fishbowl my whole life and no one told me that I was swimming in this water. But then boom, we get popped out. So shadow work is the process of making the unseen seen. And in men in particular, in our nervous systems. What this often maps back to and why I do inner child work and talk about embodiment is oftentimes there's old unprocessed emotional content that we just locked in our system and threw away the key. So when we're young, oftentimes doesn't have to just be. When we're young, it can be in any intensive moment. But with most people I work with, there's like a backlog of stuff from their childhood or their family systems or their dynamics. Stuff would happen. And as kids were extraordinarily adaptive, we learn to survive in whatever family system and culture we're in. And sometimes things will happen to us that are just overwhelming for our nervous system. It's not safe for us to push back or cry or be scared or there's a level of perfectionism our family demands or, you know, whatever it might be. And these things accumulate in our nervous system. And the key is they start to guide our behavior, often without us realizing it. So, okay, when I was a young kid, maybe I had a very volatile and loud father, Angry, sometimes physically abusive, maybe emotionally abusive, right? And so if I haven't done my work around that and I'm not conscious of it, what we'll often find is that boy becomes a man who is extraordinarily conflict avoidant, right? Is just constantly pleasing and appeasing people around him because part of his nervous system is so terrified of pushing back or saying no because as a kid it meant real danger. And his nervous system holds on to that. So shadow work is the process of reconnecting those lost parts, right? Getting back in touch with that grief, that shame, that fear, and learning to metabolize it. So then as adults, we can have choice. Oh, hey, in my life, when this tends to happen, I didn't even see it. But now that I see it, I tend to do this. I don't want to do this anymore because it doesn't get me what I want. And for a lot of guys who come to me, it's not like, you know, the trick with shadow is you don't necessarily know what it is. But for many men, where it plays out is there's these certain behaviors or Things I do that I know I don't want to do anymore, they're detrimental to my well being or my relationship or my body. But why do I keep doing them? That's a huge question. A lot of guys come to me with. And shadow work is often what illuminates that. So we're shining the light on the unconscious parts of our nervous system and behavior and beliefs so that we can have more choice about how we respond in the moment. And for men in particular, that often means metabolizing a lot of unprocessed emotional content. Grief, fear, anger, shame, disgust. Things that many men I will work with will have carried around for decades, literally decades of their lives. They'll be in their 50s and 60s and finally having an emotional release about something that they experienced when they're 8 years old and holding that that many years has a massive consequence on our metabolic system, our physical health, our emotional health and our mental health.
Anuradha Varma: Yeah. Could you share some stories? I know a lot of it must be confidential, but whatever you can, you know.
Jason Lange: Sure. I mean, I can absolutely share.
Anuradha Varma: Yeah. My story, men's groups and how they work through it and, you know. Yeah. What the catastrophe.
Jason Lange: I mean, transformation looks like to tie it to part of my story. First off. Right. So in my 20s, I realized, okay, I was struggling. I couldn't connect with women. I could not date. I'd get anxious, I got really awkward. And I did start talk therapy at the time. So I started talk therapy and I was working with a therapist. And the truth was, I was pretty sophisticated in my protection mechanisms. So I knew how to kind of share just enough to be like in it. But there wasn't really any big movement or growth happening. And one of the most pivotal, pivotal moments in my life was I was in a men's group with an older male mentor who was leading it. And he led this more somatic type shadow work. And suddenly, you know, it comes to my turn. So he puts the attention on me. He leads me through the shadow work process. Within five minutes, I was laying down on my back. I had my arms shooting up into the air. I was bawling like full body sobbing, crying out with a cracked voice, hold me. Hold me. Where are you? Hold me. And I sounded like a baby because it was the infant inside of me that had been so physically and emotionally neglected. Finally, I connected to it for the first time and had an emotional movement that I realized had been with me in every single interaction I had ever had with a woman. There was a little scared toddler in there who just wanted to be held. Totally love that part of me now. Hi, this is Dave Logan. After a Colorado storm, you'll see out of state companies show up and then disappear just as quickly. That's not who you want working on your home. Hidden exterior damage can really be costly if you miss the insurance claim window. Advanced Exteriors is locally owned with 20 years in business right here in the state of Colorado. They specialize in exterior hail restoration and help handle the process all the way through. They've been with team Dave Logan for over 12 years, have earned my gutter endorsement. Call 303-756-roof or visit advanced exteriors.com Dear America, get to Toyota's Independence Day sales event because the fireworks start here. Toyota's got plenty of bang for your buck. Fire up your savings with more miles per gallon on the all hybrid Camry and the all hybrid RAV4. The tundra and Tacoma put on the show with legendary Toyota value that keeps glowing long after the smoke clears. Find [email protected] Toyota let's go places. But it's not exactly the most attractive part for a woman, adult, you know, woman to feel like, oh, there's this little baby boy here that needs to be, you know, consoled. And when I came up out of that, I was like, what was that? I was not someone who had access or capacity to cry before I could kind of analyze things in my head, but I wasn't in my body. And that started the process for me of this emotional content in movement and learning to become more intimate with myself and see that that anxiety and fear that was showing up around women was this very young part of me that was so desperate for connection and touch. And as I learned to get that and teach my body to safely receive it, not just from women, but from men, from masseuses for asking for it turns out that part of me wasn't running the show anymore. Then the adult man could show up and actually interact with women in a very different way and with other guys I've worked with. Right. Many unfortunate men I work with have been subject to physical abuse either from an older male in their childhood or sometimes peers when they're young. And the body remembers that. And it's often not safe to cry or push back. So for many men, a lot of the work we'll do is we'll create a tremendous amount of safety where they can start to feel how intense those moments were and allow that energy to come through. So it might be a man who whose body literally shakes for minutes, releasing an incredible amount of fear that he had been holding for decades. Or somebody who finally, in a safe way is allowed to push back, to say, no, get off me. And complete a circuit that their nervous system had been wanting to do since they were kids, but they couldn't do then, because to have done that in that moment probably would have actually resulted in more harm for them. But finally their body gets to say, hey, no, I have agency. I have safety. For other guys, it's around learning to connect healthily to their sexuality. It's learning to come out of a place of extreme shame where something happened to them when they were young, had some kind of interaction with a parent who maybe shamed them or scolded them for something. And that stuff goes in deep, Goes way in deep. I see it really strong with boys. The most men I I talk to can unfortunately remember a moment where they're, you know, young boy, full of just energy, curiosity, asking questions about everything. So explorative. And not always, but sometimes it's a mom, sometimes it's a dad, at some point just comes in and snuffs out the light. Why are you asking so many questions? Can you just be quiet? And it's a real thing. It's like a little candle gets snuffed, and it's like, okay, I'm not allowed to do that anymore. I have to. And I've worked with many men who we've reconnected to just that, genuine curiosity, enjoy. Or men who get connected to their grief. Right. A parent died, and it. They. They were never able to actually feel the loss of that. So there's lots of different ways it shows up. And why I particularly love doing it in a group is it starts to accelerate the process. Because what men start to see when another man dives into his shadow, it helps normalize that it's okay for everyone else. It's like, oh, my God, I was. I would never would have talked about that. But then I saw you talk about what happened with your dad, and that really started to move the energy for me because I realized I experienced that too. And then, boom, my stuff starts moving. So in a group, the shadows get exposed so much more quickly than even in private work I do where I can work with someone one on one. But a group field just accelerates the process of healing and starts to rewrite the story of what it means for men to bring this stuff forward. And for a lot of guys, it deeply disrupts their preconceived notions of what a man is. When they see a guy fully enter into his grief or his despair or his shame, or even his healthy anger and realize, oh, all that stuff I was taught about, you can't do any of that. It's bullshit. Right. When I actually am in the presence of someone who can hold their emotional experience and doesn't collapse into it, but also doesn't shoot it out in some kind of aggressive posturing, it actually feels amazing. And we feel more trust for men who can do that. And as that circuit starts to get kind of set up in guys, it's profoundly changes them in how they realize they can be in the world.
Anuradha Varma: Yeah, that's. That's really nice. You've explained it pretty well. I want to know how a men's group works. I'm just curious, like, how is it you sit around in a circle, how many of you are there? How do you start? You say, hi, I'm so and so. And, you know, how does it work and how to. What prompts them to come to you? Is it like, you know, they come in out of curiosity or they already, you know, feeling some anxiety, anxiety and, you know, some turmoil and they want resolution, or they come in feeling, let's just see what this is about, and then they're surprised by what comes up?
Anuradha Varma: Absolutely. You don't have to do it alone. And I think that is the something that men grow up not knowing that there's an option. You don't have to do it alone.
Jason Lange: Yes.
Anuradha Varma: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Anuradha Varma: So tell me, how big are these groups? What is somebody, you know listening to this podcast decides to set up a men's group with their friends? You know, so what is the idea, guys? And how long does it go on for?
Jason Lange: Yeah, so there's no right or wrong way here. After, you know, decades of experience myself, what I've generally found works best is groups of between 6 and 12. Lower than 6. Often groups can get pretty small because life gets busy and sometimes people have to miss, yeah, more than 12, and it's just too many men in, in an evening. And so usually groups are, you know, two or three hours and give time for each man to kind of check in. Sometimes you go deeper with certain men to do some work than others. I, I, I'm in many groups myself. In a sense. I'm part of groups that meet most, the most common thing I see is about twice a month. So it's not a huge time commitment. We're talking, you know, potentially five, six hours of your life to build a robust group. Some groups I know meet weekly, some I know meet monthly or quarterly. There's no right or wrong way to do it. The most impactful groups I have been part of, and now I teach men to be part of, though, do have continuity, where it's about the same group of men building these deep relationships over time. And that becomes so valuable when you have that shared history with each other because you start to learn, oh, yeah, your thing is you do this thing in relationship and you're doing that thing in your relationship right now. Right. And that becomes really valuable feedback. And it's not, we don't offer that kind of stuff to shame each other, but to help each other grow. And so, you know, I would say usually about six is the minimum. But for a lot of guys, you know, honest to God, you can start to get a lot of the benefits of this by just calling up one or two buddies and, and actually setting a different frame when you go out of, hey, instead of just shooting pool or watching the game. I actually want to talk what's going on in your life. Right. And you go under the surface and you take the lead there. And not every man in your life will feel safe enough to open up in that way. But usually most men have one or two that they can start to. Oh, yeah, I do get a sense there's a little bit of connection with so and so I bet we could have a deep conversation. And it always blows me away. Right. I start working with guys, they come into one of my men's groups and have the experience of what it means to relate in this different way. And then I repeatedly get these reports. Oh, my God. And then I hung out with my buddy Jim, who I've known for 20 years. And in one night, we went deeper than we had in 20 years. Now I know how to do it. And that relationship is forever different. That man is available to them and they. To the way that wasn't possible.
Anuradha Varma: Yeah. So do you sit in a circle? I'm sorry, I'm keep going to this. Or do you get here circle? Yeah. Is there beer? Are there snacks or. That defeats the purpose.
Jason Lange: Yeah, no, in most groups, I lead the. There would not be beer. Sometimes there's snacks on breaks. But most groups are going to be the most potent in a sober environment, because what you want to teach men is to come closer to their bodily experience and not escape it. Right. So sobriety actually supports that. And yeah, usually we're not eating food in it. The. The practice is having attention. Be in the circle with whoever has the attention at the moment. We all put our attention on there. And yeah, the structure of a group is really unique in that it gives men kind of the best of both worlds. The kind of more what I would say, default male relating style of side by side. But because we're in a circle, it's side by side. But you're also looking at each other.
Anuradha Varma: Right.
Jason Lange: And this is what becomes so, so powerful. And, you know, where this started, who knows? But in some sense, it's one of the oldest structures we have of sitting around a fire. And it's one place that really resistant men, like, quite literally around a fire can fall into this much faster because, oh, I'm. There's just a natural energy to speaking at a different vibration. And many men are used to that in a men's group. A lot of them actually happen around fires, but they don't have to. Right. So I often meet inside and we're just in a circle. And, you know, the fire in A sense is. Is truth and reality and getting present with each other. And then, you know, the structure of the group. Different groups have different things. I often lead embodiment practices to just, like, actual breath work or physical movement to get guys into their body in the room. And then each man gets an opportunity to check in about what's going on in their life, where they need support, where they need help, what's working, where they're celebrating. You know, men's group isn't always the heavy stuff, too long term. One of the most amazing things about a group is it's a place where we can share what is working in our life. Right. Like, oh, my God, I'm so proud of myself. I worked for three months to lose this weight, and I lost it. And a lot of guys don't even have somewhere to share that. So men's group becomes a place to share the highs and the lows.
Anuradha Varma: Absolutely. Sometimes something nice happens and you want to tell somebody, so it's important to have that outlet. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, Jason, what I've seen on your website that you don't. Women are not excluded from the process. You also have something called 12 epic dates. Right. So that's for couples counseling.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Anuradha Varma: And as you explained, you know, for men, they show up differently at work and relationships and everything once they do the work. So would you like to talk briefly a little bit about, you know, about your, you know, work that you do for couples?
Jason Lange: Sure. Yeah. So, like I said, I'm heterosexual, I'm married, I'm with a woman. And a lot of guys come to the work because for better or worse, what I've discovered is one of the places this was the case for me. But one of the things that will actually excuse my language, but get a man's ass off the couch to ask for help and make some changes in his life is when his relationships are failing, particularly his intimate ones. When he can't get into an intimate relationship like he wants, or he has no idea how to improve the one he has. And oftentimes his wife is ready to leave him. Right. It's like something's got to change that will get guys to come do the inner work that allows them to be more present in relationships. So I mainly focus on working with guys in community, in men's groups, because, paradoxically, that actually supports intimate relationship in incredible ways because we get to learn all these skills.
Anuradha Varma: Yeah.
Jason Lange: That actually help our intimate relationship. But sometimes it's really nice to be able to work with the two people at the Same time.
Anuradha Varma: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And so my wife and I, we coach men and women in couples. Yeah. Together around. Particularly because of the stage of life we're in and the stage of life, again, a lot of guys, particularly these days, come to me at is one of the traps a lot of men fall into is the provider trap. Okay. I meet a partner, we start a family. And culture has told me, and somewhat because I care, men internalize this belief. The most important thing I can do is provide financially for my family. And it's not that that's, you know, not important, but what many men, men then do is they put all of their energy into that and they neglect their personal relationships, their friendships, their health. They'll have kids. And anyone who's ever had kids, you know that one of the first things to go when you have kids is spending time with your spouse in a non parenting role. Right. And so, so many men I work with come to me at that point where their kids are approaching or are at that empty nest phase where they're going out into the world. And suddenly these two people who had fallen in love and had a lot of passion have just spent 15 years managing the kids, but never spent any time building intimacy with each other. And so the woman comes and is like, I haven't loved you for 10 years. We haven't gone on a date in two years. I don't even know who you are. Right. And men are like, oh my God, I didn't. Right. I thought my job was just to provide. And she's like, no, I need to be in an actual relationship with you. And so 12 epic dates is kind of our, our attemptive, you know, life is busy. We get it. If you only had, you know, two or three hours a month to keep your intimate relationship vital and alive and heart connected and body connected, how would you do it? So it's a guided experience of like, like it's right there in the title of you hit play. You can do it from the safety of your or your comfort of your home. And you and your partner will get guided through some very deep experiences and practices that will reconnect you as a couple and help you remember what made you fall in love with each other in the first place.
Anuradha Varma: Yeah, that's wonderful. I think it's a great service that you're providing and in always, you know. So Jason, finally, you know, you talked about rumination in the very beginning itself. How can you know, some toolkit, some skills that, you know, you can impart to listeners here. You know, how can they stop this rumination, this constant rumination. How can they not fall into that trap constantly?
Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. Two, two things come to mind, right? And we've been talking about them kind of non stop, one of which is get into your body. So actually get into your body. So this is whether it's working out, exercise, the different, many physical embodiment practices I teach of breath work, or different types of yogic moves that will often get you out of your head. It's just really simple, but you have to do it. That's the thing a lot of men don't like. Ah, I gotta make time for it. Yes, you actually have to do it. So it's learning to get out of your head, get into your body, become more fluid and intimate with your emotional experience. Because again, the reason a lot of men stay up in their head is because they're afraid to feel. If you're not afraid to feel anymore, you won't spend as much time in your head. I see it time and time again. And then just get connected, get connected to other people, right? Relationship relating is one of the primary tools and ways our nervous system are actually built to co regulate with another human being. Making eye contact, taking deep breath with each other, and all of these things are possible in a men's group. Which is why I tell guys this is one of the single most important interventions you can make in your life to improve the quality of it, hands down. And as you get that support, what I find men transform is they spend less time thinking and more time just taking action. Like, oh, instead of worrying about that, I'm just going to try something and if it doesn't work out, great. And I kind of sum that up as the, the father energy we all need. Right. The masculine and the feminine both have totally beautiful different textures of love. And you know, there's, there's this one research study I saw once that kind of blew me away. You know, they have those baby carriers these days where you can like wear your baby. And what they noticed was, you know, particularly in the young, young years, mothers tended to wear their babies facing in. You're safe, I'm with you. It's okay, got you right here. Fathers tend to wear their babies facing out. Hey, check out the world. Look at all the craziness out there. We're gonna go into it together, but I got your back. And where a men's group starts to fill that gap is the greatest gift I think the masculine can give is whatever your challenge is. Let's figure it out together. Oh, you failed that test. Let's figure it out together. You don't know how to do this thing. Let's figure out together. You're scared of this. Let's figure it out together. And as men feel that safe support, they take more action, they take more risks, they live more boldly. And that is a direct antidote to rumination.
Anuradha Varma: Wonderful. Jason. Your men's groups are all offline or online as well.
Jason Lange: I do probably the majority of my groups are online these days just because I got kids and it's hard for me to get away. But I do do some in person retreats a couple times a year and I teach men to create and lead their own local groups as well.
Anuradha Varma: Yeah, no, great, because I'm just asking because, you know, people can take these tools from you and start working or they can just simply join your men's group.
Jason Lange: So that's Right.
Anuradha Varma: That's easier. Yeah. Thank you so much, Jason. Wonderful talking to you.
Jason Lange: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Really enjoyed it.
Anuradha Varma: Yeah, my pleasure.
