Jason Lange ~ Brotherhood, Connection & Every Man Should Be in a Men’s Group! | Truth & Transcendence

Jason Lange: Perfect. Yeah.

Host: Excellent. That's her first trip. Lanier. And of course, Ken Wilbur, who probably everyone listening to this knows about Ken Wilbur. So. And before I even welcome Jason, I'm going to tell you where you can find him on Evolutionary Men. So that's really a clue there as to what he's offering. So, Jason, thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm really excited to have you here today.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'm so pumped to be here. Katherine. Thank you for having me.

Host: Excellent. And I know that you've just been running a retreat a week ago, and then you're off to do another men's group tomorrow. So you're right in the thick of the work you're doing, which is just so amazing. How did you actually get into doing this work in the first place?

Jason Lange: Yeah, you know, my journey of men's work is my journey in a sense that it really goes back to the core of, you know, my experience. Growing up here in the States, I'm white man, grew up in lower middle class, in the middle of the country, and, you know, had the privilege of basically most of my security needs being met as I was growing up. But as I, you know, like many people do, kind of got into my formative teenage years, started to realize, wow, okay, some things I experienced were a little different than other people. And primarily what happened for me is, you know, I went through puberty and my hormones were coursing and became, you know, attracted to the opposite sex, in my case, but found that I just had no capacity to. To know how to talk to women, how to connect to women, get very anxious and uncomfortable in my body, and got pretty stuck with, like, I. I couldn't figure that out, and saw my peers kind of having relationships and experiences, and that led me to really looking at, like, why is it I don't feel good in my body and why is it I feel so uncomfortable around women? Which then, you know, traced back into my childhood and some neglect and experiences I had that really kicked off an inner journey for me of. Of growth and wanting to figure out, like, there's got to be a better way for me to be in the world that doesn't feel so bad.

Host: Yeah, essentially amazing. Well, that sounds, you know, so sort of how old were you when you started to kind of realize that this was something you wanted to look into properly?

Jason Lange: Yeah, pretty early in my life. So, you know, 16, 17, I started feeling, you know, something's not quite working in me the way I want. And then, you know, it was right when I went off to college, I discovered my first Ken Wilber book. And so the Mind philosophy was kind of my first entry point into trying to try just to figure out why I was the way I was. And that was a journey that eventually took me to working for Ken and his organization in Boulder. And just this intuition of, hey, I. I don't know what I need, but I feel like if I go to this place, people are going to be able to guide me to whatever it is I need to heal. And that's actually what led me to my first men's work in men's groups. I got really lucky in my 20s in that community to come across men's work and get into my first men's group, which was then combined, you know, admittedly, with discovering somatic therapy and really coming into my body and my self in a way I really hadn't before and surfacing a lot of old. Just emotional pain and discomfort that was really, you know, influencing the way I did show up in relationships and intimacy and with touch. And it just kind of kept going from there in terms of I got into a group, I got around other men. I had the first experience, you know, I often tell this tale of, like, sitting in a circle with one of my mentors and kind of looking at him and thinking, oh, you know, I was, like, 26 at the time, so it's kind of funny to think, but it's like, oh, that's what I want to be when I grow up. And what that really was was just seeing his presence, how he breathed, how he related, how he held himself, how he related to his wife. I was like, wow, that was. Whatever he's carrying, I want some of that. Like, how do I get that? And that was really transformative in me, in my experience of connecting with other men in. In men's work and being guided deeper. And then because of my men's group, I went off and pursued some artistic passions in Los angeles for about 14 years. First half of that, I kind of let go of all the transformative work and was just focusing on things, but then quickly discovered, like, oh, I don't do well without that support, and created another group for myself in la. And then a few years into that, just, you know, I was just talking about it so much. Like, it was literally one of the most important things in my life that guys started asking me, like, hey, can I join your group or can I come? And that group I was in, in la, we met, and my friend, he was a therapist, his office, and we could literally only fit eight guys. Like, there was just not room to grow our group. So I started leading from my living room, started leading groups and just offering them, and it really just took off from there that now it's, you know, kind of my biggest passion is, yeah, every man should be in a men's group. For so many of the reasons we're going to talk about today, but short of it is I'm so passionate about the work because it's what has transformed my life and I'm still in it. So, you know, the group I'm going to this week, that's my group, I go there for support. I'm not holding space for other men. Other men hold me in that. And. And I'm still on this journey, too.

Host: Totally. Well, you're still evolving and growing as we all are, aren't we? And I. I think the minute somebody thinks, right, tick, I've done it now, that's when things Start to go wrong.

Jason Lange: Yes.

Host: And I say that as someone who has had that moment and realized, no, Catherine, someone put a very funny meme on Facebook. You know how sometimes people put memes on, which is about, you know, me. I said this, and then someone else said this, and someone put up me. I really think I've grown. I really think I've understood myself now. I've evolved. I'm transcending. And then it's the universe. No.

Jason Lange: Totally.

Host: End of discussion. It was very, very funny. So, yeah, I love that. So. And also in the way that you speak, and I noticed this when we spoke before. You are so present in your communication in the sense that you're sort of feeling as you're speaking, as you're speaking as you're feeling, which I think is a real art, that few of us manage to sort of do that. And the only way to get to doing that is the path of experiencing what you're experiencing, isn't it? As you go. You can't just find it in a book. Even a Ken Wilbur book, which are fantastic. Shout out to Ken Wilbur. Fabulous work. And I think it's extraordinary that you, at that young age of 16 or 17, recognized what was going on as an opportunity for growth and learning rather than drinking a lot. Meaningless sex. I'm not going to ask any private questions about whether or not you did have meaningless sex, but you kind of went the route of growth. Whereas some people don't get that insight until they're much older, do they?

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: And can you. Was there anything. If you look back at that time, do you have any insight into why it was that you kind of made that choice then, rather than, as I suspect the majority of people do, just trying to bludgeon your way through somehow? I did at that age. Any idea why you kind of took a different path?

Jason Lange: You know, that's a great mystery to me in a sense that, you know, I would like to say I had something to do with it, but I think a lot of it was just luck. Like, you know, the right things just came to me at the right time. That kind of gave me a trajectory forward. And one thing I will say is that related to that is one area, despite all my challenges, I've always just been so blessed is I have always had strong male community. So even though I didn't know, you know, I was in a lot of pain around connecting to women then. Like, I had my group of guys, like, in. In high school, you know, we were kind of nerdy, not. Not so comfortable in ourselves. But there was, like, a bond. And I, I, you know, I got lucky again in that I can remember. I didn't know what this was back then, but, you know, sometimes we just gather around my buddy's fire in his backyard, and there was a different energy to it of, you know, particularly back then, not having had any of this modeled for us. I think fire in particular is liberating for a lot of guys because we can kind of speak into the fire.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: 100 of, like, what we're feeling. It, like, gives some permission and a container. And so, you know, some vulnerable stuff would sometimes come forward. And there was just an energy of we're here together. And I think having that context was. Was so transformative for me. And, you know, it's one of those things where, like, it's funny when I think back to it, but the way my life played out, I had to go to a different high school than middle school in elementary school. So when I switched to high school, I was one of the people that, like, knew nobody because pretty much everyone I'd grown up with was going to a different school. And, you know, it was. I was kind of shy and awkward. So that first year, I didn't have a lot of friends, but it just came down to literally a kid sitting in front of me in my biology cast class freshman year, asked me to borrow a video game, came over to my house, and, like, that was my inroad there. But had I not sat by him, I could have feel, you know, a very true different trajectory because it happened for me where I also would have had isolation with men. So I think I was just kind of lucky in a sense that. Yeah, I really just feel lucky in that I know many men in particular whose trajectories went a different way because that's what they had available to them. You know, I think that's one of the pains I definitely see with a lot of men right now is we'll reach for the only medicines we have access to. And unfortunately, in our culture, one of the most common medicines we socially accept for men is booze or weed or porn or masturbation. And these are, you know, just the tools that men are reaching for when they have no other ways to regulate themselves. It's like, well, this is what's available and what's. You know, it's crazy to me that booze is the one we've settled on as a culture because it's so. Just can be so hard on the body when you. When you really study it but it's like, yeah, we're good, we're good with that. And so a lot of men, you know, turned to that. And there's a history of that in my family as well. So I think I had some awareness of that. But again, I, I just feel like luck, you know, something was, something was being nice to me along the way, even though, you know, there are parts that didn't feel so good in my journey, I got access to things and, you know, I will also say I think I was just lucky being of a certain generation in that as certain of these curiosities came up for me. You know, it was like when I was in high school, I think Amazon had really just kind of popped in, like 97 or 98, and I could just go online and order any book, like even the weirdest, most esoteric stuff. And, you know, that wasn't necessarily possible in generations past, particularly being out in the middle of the suburbs like me, where there was, there was no, you know, kind of transformational community or energy. So I think coming of age, while there was this huge shift in information access globally happening, also supported me in terms of then having the ways to, you know, find my way to what I needed.

Host: Yeah, fantastic. Well, I, I, I, I think that thing about luck and what comes into one's space is something that anybody can really take that and, and think to themselves. Yeah, but do I notice it? You know, do I respond to it? You know, I've really noticed that in, in life there's that thing, sometimes I look back and think, oh, God, there were things offered me that I didn't pick up on, you know, in other times when I did pick up on it, you know, so I think, yeah, that's, so I take that when you say you feel, you feel lucky, you know, and so forth. And also I'll just add to that the other ingredient of, you know, do you maybe were lucky and you noticed the stuff and you were sure.

Jason Lange: Thank you. Yeah.

Host: You know, and of course, you know, when we summarize a life, there's many ups and downs in the life, aren't there?

Jason Lange: So, you know, Absolutely.

Host: People say to me, oh my God, you've had such a great life, you know, And I'm going, yeah, but, you know, we're talking quite a few decades here and there's some bits you haven't heard about and you're not going to hear about because, you know, okay, they were valuable learning for me, but you can get your own, you know, learning material from somewhere else. So I Think that's important to keep in mind. And just coming back to when we spoke before, we were talking about the theme of connection and. Yeah, that was a very, very strong theme for you. Did you kind of connect in with that right at the beginning when in your sort of mid to late teens, or is that something that came through later?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, the awareness of what was happening kind of came later. But, you know, again, it. It actually all does kind of swirl together in that. Like I said, like, I didn't come from a, like a. A negative family in the sense there wasn't abuse or anything like that. You know, there's just a little emotional neglect. And my parents didn't really have the capacity to bring a certain type of emotional attunement and connection and presence. So it's kind of like we just kind of grew up in the same house.

Host: A normal family then.

Host: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I feel that as well, you know, I mean, because I'm very aware of the fact that there's been massive leaps forward for women, you know, women becoming more independent, more self reliant, you know, economical leaps for them as well. So they can afford now to be a single mother or they can afford to get out of relationship and, and they can afford and also with technology, they can actually manage many more aspects of life using technology to help them do it. And, you know, household equipment and all of the other things, you know, you can actually manage an awful lot now that you couldn't before, which means you can do it on your own. And I think this. Is this for men. For some men, this has come as a bit of a shock because then suddenly we'll, you know, you don't want me to give you financial security. You don't want me to tell you what to do with your life. What do you want me to do? Yeah, and I think that's very hard on men. And I actually look sometimes at the different offerings that are out there, you know, workshops and programs and this, that and the other. And the vast majority of them are worded for women. They're pitched for women or for, like the soft side of a person. They're not talking to men, not as men. You know, they're sort of talking to a sort of fantasy version of a man, which is essentially a woman in a man's body, which is not a real thing. So I'm not getting into gender reassignment stuff here just to knock that on the head in terms of what I just said. So, yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And I also think it's something that men need other men to be saying this. They don't need women to be saying this. They don't need another mother. I mean, they might need another mother, but I think for a lot of men, that's not what they're looking for, is it? They need that. And I love that thing you said about being round the fire with your friends, like the beating heart of the fire, and you guys are around it. You can chuck what you're saying into the fire. That's an incredibly powerful, very masculine principle image that I just thought that's. That was really exciting and really powerful. Women can't provide that for men. Men, you know, men have to provide something for each other, don't they?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think it's the, you know, I'm like, I beat the drum of men's groups. But, you know, really any kind of group can be powerful. But there is, whether it's a men's group, a women's group, a bipoc group, a queer group. There's something that happens when we're in a container with other people who have been shared. Who have been raised in a shared cultural context as us. Doesn't mean everything has to be the same. I think part of what I see liberating be so liberating for men is just kind of the exhale of I don't have to like all this other stuff that I have to do out in the world or sometimes engage with women around. Like it doesn't have to be at play in a group. And I've seen that relief happen with women when they're just with women, men when they're with men and all kinds of configurations. And not that we have to only be in these groups, but I think there is some relief I just see with men when they're, you know, I, I talk about. It's kind of an extreme example, but I've seen it many times now of, you know, sometimes the, the level of internalization and burden that men hold. And you know, I know it's changing, but I think statistically, you know, suicide has been more of a male oriented. Like I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers are higher for men. Like this just this idea that sometimes it's like life is too much, so I just want out. Like, I just want out. And I've just seen firsthand the power of what happens when a man's sitting with another man and maybe brings that forward. Like, you know, there's times I've just thought of like totally giving up and just letting it all go. And when another man just breathes and looks him in the eye and genuinely can say like, yeah, I've been there, I totally get it. I know that feeling. And there's no like trying to fix it or make it wrong or even freaking out about it. It's just like, yeah, I know what that's like. There's always this just like, yeah, there's that deep exhale that I see really become possible in that shared container for men of just the pressure that we often feel, rightly or wrongly. You know, some of it's self generated, like, I'm not going to pretend it's not, and some of it's cultural. You know. One of the most interesting studies I came across recently was this wild survey they did of both men and women around what marks the transition from childhood to adulthood. And so for women, for better or worse, I'm not saying this is the right answer, but it's both men and women answered this. They were like, what marks the transition from a girl into a woman? And lo and behold, most of the responses were biological. Yes, for the women, oh, she started her menstrual cycle, she's developed into her body, she can bear children. That was kind of what marked that transition. Both men and women asked the same question for boys to men. And it was not biological. It was more cultural and societal in terms of, well, a real man takes care of his family and can provide and do all these different things that are not just based on biology. Meaning a boy can fully be mature in his physical body but still not be considered a man by his culture. And I think that's, you know, it points to this idea, the man box and all this cultural programming that a lot of us guys get from a young age about what you're supposed to be to be a man, right? There's literally this box we have to fit in of. Be tough, never show weakness, don't be vulnerable, always keep moving forward. Kind of crazy, but a big one I've discovered for a lot of my guys is if sex is available to you, you should take it. And if you don't, there's something wrong with you. Like if a woman's available to you sexually, like, oh, you, you need to take that. There's all these different kind of checklists that we're supposed to create which then confine us, right? It's this actual pressure and you know, there's a, there's a version of that for the feminine, for women too. But I think it's particularly strong with men that we start we get from a young age and you know, they often, we often see it and just how people relate to their daughters and their sons. You know, daughter hurts herself, there's like a level of care and attunement. Boy like, oh, you're okay, you're fine, just get up. You know, be tough. And from a young age, a lot of boys, you know, stop crying, be tough, you're okay. And then the school system doesn't particularly help of this, you know, just literally slightly different body hormones and boys often just need to move more. Like they just. We're just more kinesthetic in a sense. And we're put in these school environments where we're taught, be still. Whatever's happening in your body, ignore that, be still. And so from a young age, we start to get the message as boys that whatever's happening in your body, override that with your mind. Whether that's emotionally, physically. And then we get into, you know, locker room kind of middle aged culture where there's that just hyper competitiveness of boys. And if you share anything, you might be bullied or shamed or mocked for it. And then we get into adulthood and whether it's like athletics or our Jobs, we're rewarded for pushing harder. Ignore your body, work more hours, be tough, be tough, be tough. And it just adds up over time. So then, you know, I. I get a lot of men coming to me, and they're disconnected from their bodies. They have no idea, like I did, how to identify or name their inner world or emotional experience. So they feel very little power over what to do with that. And so they turn to those things that we do say are okay in our society. So drink it off, smoke it off, ejaculated off, like, work it off. And these are the things that men get trapped into and ultimately do not work because they never actually address what's happening inside. In men's groups, I found, are a powerful way to start to rewrite that where paradoxically, one of the most profound things I often see in group is when men help guide other men more into their direct felt body experience in the moment of what's happening in their body physically, which then correlates to emotionally. And then it just. It like, actually slows us down so we can start to feel. And men's group is often, for a lot of men, I know, one of the only places where they're encouraged to do that. And despite all the programming, what. The other thing that's always amazed me is once there's a safe space, there's actually often quite a bit that men have to share because they've just never had anywhere to put it. And suddenly it's just like a floodgate of stories or emotions or hurts or fears or tensions or grief just come pouring through. And we get to hold that for each other as other as men.

Host: How beautiful. It's so lovely listening to this because I want men to have this sort of thing. I want them to have it. But of course, for us women, you know, we've all got sort of, you know, mother programming and running. Mother 2.0 or big sister 2.0 it is, you know, and so we, you know, we want to help the guys, but what you're talking about is something we cannot do. They have to have men to do that with them. And. And where are those? There are more men's groups now more than ever, I think. Although perhaps in. In the mists of time, it could be that there were a lot of, you know, tribal men's groups that we don't know about now. You know, the whole thing about the boy becoming a man.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: There have been cultures, haven't there, where people where. Where boys do have that transition into manhood, but it's like young manhood. It's not mature manhood. You know, you're a young man.

Jason Lange: Yeah, but that's.

Host: You're not a mature man.

Jason Lange: One of the, one of the big shifts because, yeah, a lot of indigenous cultures around the world did have actual mechanisms in place for helping a boy navigate that transition, often through the guidance of older, more mature men in the community. And this is Robert Bly, who wrote Iron John, which was kind of one of the books that kicked off the men's work movement in the 90s. He tracked this a lot again, to kind of cultural reasons of. A lot shifted in the Industrial Revolution because before then, you would often see boys kind of just being raised by their mothers and the. The women of the town up until about 8 or 9. And then there would be this very conscious kind of, okay, the men are going to come take you now. And boys would then start to work with their fathers, with their uncles. They would be spending time with them every day. They would get to see, how does my dad do deal with conflict? What is his craft? But when the Industrial Revolution happened, dad started going off to work in the factory. So they were gone. Yeah, most of the day. And then school springs up and it's changed a lot. But initially, a lot of the school system was. Was whether it was carried by women, female teachers. So boys, many, many boys these days are raised in a context where they're not raised by men. Right. They don't actually spend time by men. And it's not that that magically fixes everything, but it does provide something. And there's a lot of studies on how potent an intervention is for young boys. Even just one interaction with some kind of male mentor or role model that shows them deep presence, understanding, and offers them a little guidance can radically change the trajectory of a boy's life. It doesn't even have to be this, like, persistent 247 thing. It could be a coach, a scout master, an uncle. Like, these interventions really help. And that's all been. A lot of that has been lost. So you find a lot of boys who are just who. When they don't get that guidance from older male role models, that's when they have to turn to their peers to try to find something. And all the dysfunction of peer pressure can really take off where they're trying to create a trajectory for themselves in. In that. But point being, yeah, there's, you know what I found, Katherine? That it's this, like, really interesting craving. I think most men I end up working with connect to at a Deep level is this actual. I call it the spinach in the teeth moment. This longing for someone to tell them when they have spinach in their teeth, which is like this a unique texture of masculine love, of like, hey, man, I love you. And I see something's off in your life, and I want to call you forward around it, which isn't about shaming the person, but it's. It's about bringing them forward into the moment and helping them create a plan to move through it. Like, I love you too much to be okay with how you're showing up in your relationship or your job or how you're treating yourself physically. There's like an actual craving to kind of. To get a little heat of, like, I care about you. Like, let's. And as I say how I kind of work with my guys around this is. I call it the father energy. We all need, you know, whether you're a man or woman. Right. Is. Let's figure it out together. It's just this feeling of whatever's going on, I'm with you. What didn't work? What can we. What kind of plan can we make forward? Like, let's figure it out. Oh, that broke. Let's try that. Oh, you didn't get that job. Let's try that. Your relationship's falling apart. Let's try that. And it's that feeling of, you don't need to be perfect. I'm not going to let you just sit on your ass, so to speak, and do nothing. But, like, let's. Let's move this forward. What can we learn? What can we try? What can we experiment? And when we have that masculine presence behind us, you know, as humans, in addition to, you know, some loving feminine presence, we can really thrive. And, you know, there's a. I always. A lot of stuff I'm thinking about these days is always around parenting as a. As a young parent myself. And again, I don't remember where it was, but there's this beautiful little research study around baby carriers. You know, those, like, things you can wear on your front, you can wear the baby. And again, you know, cultural beyond culture. Who knows? What they found is moms tended to wear the baby facing in, so baby is nestled in close, kind of protected from the world, just enveloped in love. Dads tend to flip the baby around, face them out. Like, we're going to go out into the world and you're going to experience newness, novelty, and a little bit of vulnerability and maybe discomfort. And I'm right here behind you.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: So you're, you're going to move into the world with something supporting you from behind. And I think that, again, that energy is what I find we can then recreate in men's group. You know, another way to think about it is what I often see is we really just start refathering each other of giving each other some of the fatherly energy we never really had for so many kids, myself included, of just like a grounded presence that gives a shit, and it's just there with us.

Host: Wonderful. Well, how fantastic what you're doing. Just amazing. I just have to ask you, do you have like a practitioner supervisor or a mentor or somebody like that for yourself?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'm continually working with coaches myself, so I'm in programs and trainings. I do, you know, I don't do it every day the of the year, so to speak, but I cycle in and out of therapy usually a couple seasons a year.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: Because more content will come up and then I have to work on it. I've worked with female therapists, I've worked with male therapists. And then probably, you know, wrapped all around that is I'm part. I'm a little polyamorous when it comes to men's groups. So I'm part of like five men's groups, some in person, some that just meet up to do shadow work, some that meet online. So I'm very held by a lot of men, many of whom are older than me and a little further in their life story, which has been, you know, particularly when I became a dad, was like, just such a game changer to have like the bat dial, bat phone of, oh, my God, this is happening. I feel like I'm messing up my kid. And they're like, oh, you're good, man. You know, here's how that played out for me. It's going to be okay. And it's just like, oh, thank you. Okay. That's such a relief. So, yeah, I'm a pretty big proponent of, you know, I think you, you, you nailed it early in the call. You know, my red flags go off anytime someone's like, oh, I've got it all figured out. And so I'm very much in my journey constantly. And every year I peel back another layer of the onion, and now I'm just in for the ride. I'm like, great, this is fun. It's never going to end. Like, I'm always going to discover more about myself. I'm always going to need guidance from other can see me and reflect things to me in a way I can't do myself. And that's something I strongly encourage my men to look for as well. And again, part of what I see is really powerful about a group, particularly a group that we know trusts us and loves us and has nothing but our best interest in the heart. That same group is often the most potent group to give us feedback when we're going off course as well. And I think it's one of the greatest investments guys can make in their families, in their careers, in their intimate relationships, is having that cohort of men. Doesn't have to be, you know, a dozen, just a couple of guys in your life you really have that depth of connection with can be such a game changer.

Host: Yeah. Amazing. Wow. Well, honestly, Jason, I could talk to you for hours and hours about this. It's just. It is fascinating. But more than that, to me, it's very heartwarming. You know, it just feels very good that there's. That you're working, providing something for men that they need. And the fact that you're constantly working on your own growth and getting that support, I would suggest, is probably what makes you a very good facilitator, you know, because you're.

Jason Lange: Thank you.

Host: You know what I mean? Because you're going to be stretching what you can cope with further and further. And I think that's. I would say that's very important for any practitioner who wants to work at depth. It's vital to have that support and that container, you know, whatever the support is that you need or that I need or we need. You know, I've just booked myself on a workshop in October which is going to be really intense, quite stretching and demanding, and I cannot wait. You know, it's just so important that we keep all of that, because otherwise we end up being limited by how far we've traveled so far. And we want the people who come to us to be able to keep traveling. So we have to keep traveling. So I think that's. I used to have a thing I used to say was, it's my job to be at least one step ahead of my clients. And then as they're expanding, I need to be expanding faster. I can stay one step ahead. You know, that's my job to do that. So I think you spot on.

Jason Lange: That's beautiful. And I think that's. You just encapsulated why I like to use this term guide, because it's more like a trail guide. It's like, hey, I've hiked this mountain before. I'm out here with you, I can't do the hike for you, but I can walk with you along the way and say, hey, here's the route that worked for me. What feels good to you right now? And it's exactly that, like on the path together and maybe having just been hiked it a little bit before. So I can, you know, help guys that are just starting that journey miss some of the pitfalls that I tripped over in the process.

Host: Yeah, yeah. Beautiful. Well, I wish you were in the uk. Yeah. Are you connected with people kind of around the world who run men's groups.

Jason Lange: More and more these days? Yeah, I have some clients all around the world and often times, you know, for listeners like whether you work with me or not, I'm a resource. So if you reach out can help you kind of find the way into what's available in your area. Sometimes once you just narrow some of the terminology and things to look for and where to look for it, that there is more available now than, than ever. And so just kind of holding the global as much as I can awareness of what's there is, is a great thing to route guys to for sure.

Host: And if, if somebody can't find a local men's group, do you do onetoone work with people at all?

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah, I do private coaching with guys. I run some virtual programs. I'll be expanding even more over the, the next years to just do whatever I can, you know, to, to make it possible because. And you know, I'll also just share with guys. It doesn't take much. And what I mean by that is sometimes it's just most guys, when I really talk to them and I ask them, they often have like an intuitive sense of, yeah, there's this guy at work or there's this guy at my gym that we've, when we've talked, there's just like a little more depth. There's. And sometimes it's just a matter of saying like, hey guys, you know, I'd love to go out sometime, get some drinks or dinner and just really talk about what's going on in our lives and to kind of set that container. And then like I said, once the space is there is a wild often how much guys have to unload and just like share and suddenly we're just like chatty, chatty because we didn't know it was possible before. So, you know, a structured men's group is amazing. But really anything is possible. And if you're a man who's feeling lonely and isolated in your community, what's important about that is the fact that you are almost guarantees there are other men around you feeling the same.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: So if you can't find something, it's like kind of say part of your responsibility might be to start it. And that's something I also, you know, really like to support men in doing.

Host: Fantastic. So. So anyone who's listening to this, if you are a man who's kind of resonating with this, you can contact Jason and you can go to his men's groups if you can, or he might be able to point you in another direction or you might be able to do one of his virtual things or some one to one work. So I'm delighted to hear you say that. To just slightly shift the emphasis of what we're looking at for a moment. Interesting times in the world at the moment, I think we could agree. And in these interesting times, which are quite volatile and quite unpredictable and interesting, slash insane, there are a lot of people trying to be good leaders and trying to be good leaders in their own lives and trying to be part of the solution. And this podcast tends to attract those sorts of people, people who are inquiring and interested and what I call on the expensive path and trying to help other people. So is there something you'd like to say to those people in relation to some of what we've been talking about today?

Jason Lange: Yeah, that, you know, I'll. I'll speak to the men here, I think, just because that's kind of the theme of I don't think we can do this work fast enough. You know, just all things considered, from my perspective, it's like the feminine women, they're trying to hold this thing together, like literally this planet together in a sense. And there's been a bit of a gap, I think. And like you said, just like us men can. There's something that happens and there's something really important that happens when men call other men forward. That I think we're kind of coming out of a time where women were having to do that quite a bit and we actually need men to do it again. It's not about shaming, but it's about calling something forward in each other so we can really kind of support a thriving planet. And, you know, I'm not, I'm not of the ilk of, you know, I don't even believe there's such thing as the toxic masculine, toxic masculinity. I think there's toxic people. Toxic people. But even then, it's not that they're toxic. It's that something has grown awry. So I like more pathological. And that we need this healthier version of all of this to come forward in that masculinity itself. I would argue right now, it's not that we need less of it, we need more of it. Just the healthy, connected, integrated kind. And we all have it inside of us. Whether we're born in a women's body, woman or man's body, or any configuration, these. These energies exist pre. Culturally. You know, in a sense, there's. There's. There's the inhale and there's the exhale. There's life and there's death. They're just two sides of the same thing. And we need both. Right. Both are what make the world alive and passionate and existing. And I think we're on the precipice of moving from this destructive masculinity to a generative masculinity that's. Yeah. Masculinity itself can also promote connection in life and be for the benefit of all. So it's time, you know, just be my call of like, it's time to, you know, step forward in your work. And the other thing I say to guys is every time you step forward in a group to reveal, to ask for support, to get accountability, when you share your story, whatever that might be, you're actually making it easier for other men. I see this all the time in group that once one man breaks the dam of this is how we're supposed to be, and another man sees it, it's like the dominoes fall so fast of like, wow, I didn't know I could even bring that forward. I didn't know it was okay to cry, to ask for help. I didn't know I could be angry and not be scary, that I could. I could bring my anger forward in a safe way. All these things start to change really, really fast. So here to support in any way I can. And there's just a tremendous amount of leaders out there as well, men and women that can also facilitate this for you.

Host: Yeah. Amazing. How beautiful. Well, honestly, I'd love to keep talking forever, but we can't do that. We've talked about a lot today around connection and men's groups and all sorts of layers. I mean, I love all this wisdom you've accrued across the years and which is obviously still expanding for you. It's fantastic. Has there been for you a favorite part of our conversation today?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think just hearing your again, your reflection about kind of being one step ahead. I think contextualized something for me of why it's so important for leaders to be in the work. It also keeps us connected and grounded in a way that I think people can feel rather than us. It's talking at you. It's, oh, here's what's happened for me. And what I've. What I think you just helped illuminate for me is just that there's so much more connection possible in that. And that's always been what drew me in the most with my teachers, mentors, and leaders when I. It's not that they had it all figured out. It's actually when I got to feel their humanness. And they're. Oh, they're in this, too. And to me, that's actually a huge relief of, like, oh, okay. Even the people I think have it figured out are still figuring it out, so that's okay. So I'm. It's okay for me to be figuring it out, too. So just feel like I've met a kindred. Kindred spirit here.

Host: Fantastic. Well, I'm delighted that that resonated for you. I think that's true. That's another transition, I think that's happening at the moment, which is more people who are in leadership positions or practitioner or guide positions, more and more of them are realizing that it's not about, have I arrived, it's about what's my next shift, and there's another one after that, and there's another one after that. And that's a good thing. That's a piece of joy, that's not a piece of failure. And I just. I love it when other people are connected with that because it's just so. It's a much happier place to be as well, I think, than the one I've made to. So the final thing I'm going to ask you is, oh, and actually, let's just remind people of where to find you, which is evolutionary. Dot, men and guy, everyone who's listening, but men in particular. Contact Jason, work with him, or get his advice on finding someone local to you. You know, he's here for you, and he's very approachable. I think you'd agree, Everybody and open. So do contact him. I think if I'd listen to this and I was a man, I would be in touch immediately. Even if I didn't have any issues, I'd be like, I just want to be in your group because it's just going to be so real and so rich and so nourishing. So that's just so lovely. So I'M going to invite you to consider Is there a reflection question that you'd like to leave with the listeners for them to optionally consider over this next week before my next guest episode comes out and they'll have another reflection question. So is there something you'd like to leave that will help people kind of explore and connect deeper?

Jason Lange: This has just been coming up in a lot of the work I've been doing. So I think, again, all humans have this, but I work with men, so that's kind of what I know. But if you notice a voice, an inner critic, self criticism, something coming up this week, as a man of not enough or doing it wrong or not as far along as you need to be, just an open inquiry of whose voice is that? Actually can often go pretty deep, pretty fast. Wow. Whose voice is that?

Host: I've just got shivers. Thank you very much. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much, Jason. I've really loved this conversation. Love what you're doing. If you're ever in the uk, let me know and find an excuse to do something. And thank you again so much for coming on Truth and Transcendence.

Jason Lange: Yeah, thank you, Katherine.

Host: Thank you for listening to Truth and Transcendence. And thank you for supporting the show by rating, reviewing, subscribing, buying me a coffee and telling a friend. If you'd like to know more about my work, you you can find out about transformational Coaching, Peloa and the Freedom of Spirit workshop on Beingspace World. Have a wonderful week and I'll see you next time.