Here's the paradox that keeps me up at night: we men can develop incredible precision with our bodies, mastering complex athletic movements and physical skills, yet we remain completely illiterate when it comes to reading the most basic signals our bodies are constantly sending us about our emotional state. In my conversation with Dr. Dan, we explored this fascinating disconnect between our external body awareness and our complete blindness to our internal landscape.
We dug into interoception, which is basically the awareness of what's going on inside our bodies. Most men I work with have incredible proprioception, they can hit a baseball or nail a golf swing, but when it comes to knowing what they're feeling? That musculature is completely underdeveloped. And here's the thing, when we're disconnected from our bodies, we're disconnected from our emotions. We're walking around stressed, frustrated, or overwhelmed, and we have no idea. We just know something doesn't feel good, so we reach for porn, alcohol, overwork, whatever helps us avoid dealing with what's actually happening underneath.
Dr. Dan and I talked about how this isn't just about individual suffering. This isolation and lack of emotional capacity is literally killing men. We're more likely to die of heart disease, more likely to commit suicide, and way more likely to lose the relationships we care about most because we never learned how to feel and communicate what's going on inside us.
One of the most healing things I've witnessed is what happens when men get into a room together and realize they're not alone. That moment when a guy shares something he thought made him uniquely broken, and five other men say, "Holy shit, me too." That's when the real work can begin. We get to see other men model what it looks like to feel anger without exploding into rage, to drop into grief without collapsing, to be vulnerable without being weak. And through that transmission, through those mirror neurons firing, we start to embody new possibilities for ourselves.
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Host: Welcome everyone to the Happiness Journey with Dr. Dan podcast where every journey is worth living. My name is Dr. Dan and I'm your host for today's episode. I'm a bilingual, cognitive behavior and neuro linguistic programming practitioner specializing in anger management issues, both court appointed and private marriage and relationship coaching, dissociative disorders, narcissistic personality disorders, depression, anxiety, dream analysis and also provide life, business and retirement coaching support. I provide individual one on one session in both French or English and also do group settings. If you need any assistance, reach out to DMV Therapy and Coaching Services at 301-325-1550 and our website can be found at life coach d.com today I'm very excited to have for our ninth episode of season 32 a very special guest and founder of evolutionary men group teaching men about emotional intelligence, Mr. Jason Lange. And just like every of my past episode, I will leave it up to the guest to properly introduce themselves as no one can do a better job. Jason, the floor is yours.
Jason Lange: Thanks so much for having me. Excited to be here. Yeah. So I'm a men's coach, group facilitator and what I kind of call evolutionary guide. And you know, my main mission on the planet is, is to get every man into a men's group because I think that is one of the most powerful places we can actually train emotional intelligence. And particularly as men learn what it means to be connected to our bodies, connected to our hearts and be able to communicate that in a way that actually makes it easier for us to get the things we want in our lives and not just avoid as so many of us men do, actually being connected to our emotions and just staying up in our head, self regulating, sometimes with less than healthy tools to do that. So I love working with men. I'm super passionate about getting guys connected and my emotional intelligence when I began this journey was basically the equivalent of someone asked me how I was doing. I could say good, bad, fine or okay, and can tell you I'm not the only man like that. And it's been a long journey for me to get be able to have much more access to what's going on inside me and communicate it the most to those I love.
Host: Well, thank you so much Jason for being here today and especially like at the beginning of the new year when most men and women have new year resolution and especially understanding a little bit more of human nature and understanding how to be able to communicate properly with other people. So on that note, I would like to be able to first Kind of clarify because some people may not really understand what emotional IQ is, or eq, that's what we call it nowadays. Everyone understands what IQ is, which is the level of intelligence, but what is really emotional intelligence. So if you could share this with our listeners so they have a better understanding of what they know or don't know about eq.
Jason Lange: Yeah. So how I would describe this is using a very similar word that you're probably familiar with, which is called interoception. Right. Most of us have heard of the word proprioception. So it's the awareness of how our body moves through space. And if we have good proprioception, right, we're good at hitting a baseball or soccer ball, good at sports. Interoception, which I think in my experience is particularly something underdeveloped and under trained in so many of us men is the awareness of what's happening inside of us. So in the work I do, right, all emotions first start as actual sensations in our body. And so if we're disconnected from our bodies, we're often disconnected from our emotions and we just have this sense, okay, I don't know what's going on inside me. Either I'm numb or I just know there's something inside me that doesn't feel good. And that tends to cause a lot of challenges for us men in particular because. Because to relate and communicate and be in healthy relationship both with ourselves and with other people we care about these days means we have to know what's going on inside of us, particularly emotionally, and be able to communicate that. Right. If I'm not aware that I'm actually stressed out and frustrated by something happening at work and I'm walking around down my house yelling at my kids, there's not much control I have over that. So emotional intelligence, EQ is that capacity to not only understand and feel what's going on inside of me, but the beautiful thing about when we develop that capacity is it also allows us to attune and feel into and become present to the emotions of other people around us. And, and you know, we're living in a pretty crazy world these days where life and society are changing faster than ever. And the truth is, a lot more of our professional life, even just as men, involves relating with other people, right? And emotional intelligence, the capacity to be present and lead other people and create trust, safety and create creatively problem solve things, is honestly more important than ever. And so many men I work with, they're launched into this world with no training on what that actually is. And how to do it. So I think this is one of the most incredible ways men can really ensure that they have success moving forward is by developing this eq, this capacity to know their own feelings and to be present and attuned to other people's.
Host: Okay, well, that's all this is great, Jason. But the thing is that when we look at the lack of education in that field and not teaching more about human nature or human condition and psychology of humans, I mean, more people are going out there after they finish college without really the basic tools in understanding how we should feel about ourselves and how we should feel about or towards others. So if we're not giving people the knowledge, how are they supposed to acquire it?
Jason Lange: This is exactly when why men often come to me. They're moving through the world and they don't have these skills and they often start to hit real challenges, particularly in their relationships with their spouses, with their children, with co workers, with family. And that's when men often wake up to, oh, hey, I need to actually train in some skills here. Or another thing that brings a lot of men to me is people. Because we're not taught these tools. As men, we all have what we would call, you know, dark emotions, negative emotions, challenging emotions, feelings inside of us. Now, when we're not trained what those are, how to do, what to do with those, as men, guess what? Most of us default to, we reach for things outside of ourselves to try to make our insides feel better. Porn, alcohol, weed, overeating, overworking, sex, you name it. All these different things that so many men in different ways, even social media or even podcasts, you know, can become addicted to as an attempt to self regulate themselves. When we don't have this training for how to handle ourselves underneath. And that's where, you know, whether it's working with a trained skilled therapist, a coach coming into a men's group, we actually have to practice these skills, right? It's like going to the gym and working out. If we've never done it before, we don't have a lot of capacity. So we have to practice slowing down, getting into our bodies, getting a sense of what we feel, sharing it with other people, seeing does that land, etc.
Host: So basically EQ is just like a muscle. You just have to train it to be able to become a more proficient at it.
Jason Lange: I think most of us do, right? I mean, occasionally, you know, I'll work with guys who had incredible parents who taught them that, right? This is, I'm a parent and something I'm super Passionate about, I actually think is one of the main roles of a parent is to create and teach emotional intelligence in a kid. Right. I have a six year old and I have a one year old right now and they don't know what the feelings are inside of them. But right. My 1 year old wants something, I say no because it's not safe for him. He gets angry, right? His, his, his body gets hot, he starts screaming. He doesn't know that that's anger unless I help him understand that. And so part of my job is to reflect to him, hey, you want to touch the scissors but I'm not letting you. That makes you mad, huh? You're feeling really mad right now. You don't like that Daddy said no. And you can see the circuitry, right, right. Start to connect to him of oh, this sensation I'm feeling in my body, that's anger. That's what that is. And myself and so many men I work with, we just never really got that. And then as men in particular, right, there's this kind of cultural culture of masculinity which means most of us internalize this idea that oh, to be a man is to be tough and invulnerable and not have any feelings. So stop crying, get up, get right back to it. And so men in particular, I think are really underserved in this capacity, this musculature, like you're saying, of knowing what we're feeling and how to communicate that so we can make intelligent decisions in our lives and relationships.
Host: Interesting. So then at this point, Jason, those who have gone through generational trauma and see how parents interact with each other at a young age and then see how the father or the mother treat the other significant other, they will grow up knowing that this is normaly, this is common ground for a healthy relationship, even though they cannot decipher what healthy or unhealthy. So when they grow up, they basically emulate what they've seen when they were young. So does that mean those who have gone through generational trauma are cannot change or they cannot become better or get their EQ in tune with what's going on nowadays?
Jason Lange: It's totally possible to transform. It often just means we actually do need training though, right? Just like if there's anything we want to learn that we've never known how to do, we have to go out and get support from others that can guide us in that process. And for men in particular, that's why I think like, think things like therapy, relationships, coaching relationships, peer relationships, and men's groups, they become the place where not only do we get the skills, but we get to practice. And yeah, you're right. Some of the things, some of the challenges we are often carrying inside of ourselves as men, but as human beings in general aren't even just ours. We have to deal with the unfelt and unprocessed trauma often of our whole family lineage. Right. And there's ways of being that get passed down from parent to child around what it's okay to feel, what's not okay to feel. And we have to really consciously unwind that and build these skills and capacities so we have more choice. Right? In. In my book, basically what happens is we're all born and in order to survive our family system, whatever it is, we build up certain habits and patterns that try to protect us. Right. These are the ways we kind of guard our heart when we're young. The challenge with that is I see this time and time again with guys I work with the very mechanisms we developed when we were young to protect us. Kind of like a suit of armor, they become the barrier to what we most want as adults. And so we have to learn the skills to consciously be able to step out of that when we want. Okay, how can I learn here to speak up for myself, to share when I'm hurt or in pain or to share my anger in a healthy way? Can I find a place where it's okay for me to feel grief because it never was as a little kid? And lots of guys will get stuck in these patterns sometimes for an entire life, right. I got guys that work with me in their 60s, 70s, 80s, and they'll share, express or feel something they they've been carrying with them since they were children that has modified and impacted their decisions all along the way. So it definitely is harder if we come from a family of trauma, but it's not impossible. This is where it's so we're really relationship. Whether it's intimate or not becomes one of the most potent tools for healing these types of things. Because we can start to repattern these habits in our nervous system.
Host: But then. Okay, now that you're talking about the nervous system, when we look at the fight, flight or freeze, which is the brain automatic survival system, when we see all this, we have the three options that most young kids will be able to develop as defense mechanism. And then as they grow up as adults, they will adapt the same process. And it's hard. After years and years of processing this fight, flee or freeze model, bringing them to another environment. Even a men's group, when they will listen to other people or other men challenges, they say, yeah, I'm facing the same thing. And that men who actually discuss about their problem, if they share their, their similar experience about that, how they, they deal with situations such as the fight, flee or freeze, others will say, yeah, I deal with the same. So does that mean that them having similar way to deal with situation just exacerbate them to wanting to change and wanting to be able to adapt a different approach?
Jason Lange: What I've seen is so healing, particularly about men's groups and peer work, is that this realization, so many men, we walk through with this kind of lone wolf mentality of I got to figure it out all by myself. Real men never ask for help. We never share weakness. And that creates a lot of pain and isolation for men. Quite literally at a physical level. Right. Men are more likely to die of heart disease. Loneliness is one of the driving causes, causes of that. And men are much more likely to commit suicide pretty much across the planet. And again, this is this kind of tendency to hold it all inside as part of that. So when I see guys get into group, when they start to hear, oh my God, you have that challenge in your family or your relationship to, I thought I was the only one. And it starts to actually create a space of safety and relaxation for men where they realize, wow, okay, maybe I'm not as uniquely messed up as I thought. And I actually start to feel some connection with other men where we can talk about these things. And in the process of talking about it, yeah, I can learn some new skills, techniques, and more than anything else, start to feel connected. Right. Connection is really the medicine that is ailing most of us these days of just wanting to feel seen and seeing other people and feeling like we belong and are accepted and loved. And that is super powerful medicine for so many men these days. And when we start to generate that in a group, what I've seen is one of the quickest ways for men to learn how to move beyond their triggers of right, fight, flight, freeze, and even fawn. For a lot of men I work with is by seeing other men model a different strategy. Ah, wow. So this guy in my group, yeah, he's really upset and what he just did is he modeled what it means to hold and express anger without exploding into rage or aggression. Wow. He was actually able to be totally. He felt safe and in his anger. I didn't even know that was possible. Right. Nobody ever showed me that. And by seeing it, you know, the way Mirror neurons work, we start to have a pathway to embodying that ourselves or as men. Again, we see another man who fearlessly steps into his grief or his overwhelm or his fear or his burden. And we see him actually be fully present with his experience, but not collapse and also not posture and pretend like it's not happening, but that sweet spot right in the middle where he feels and is still present and is still agentic. And that transmission of seeing other men do that is often one of the first ways I see men be able to step into that themselves. It's like if we've never had anyone show show us, often we don't even know what's possible. Which is why, again, it's so important to spend time with other people who have developed their eq, who have developed their nervous systems, who do have some control over their triggers and can actually model what the different types of being around this stuff really look like.
Host: Absolutely. And especially for, you know, as you mentioned, another term which is fawn. And this is mostly for those who actually grew up with narcissistic people or narcissistic parents where they're very vulnerable in wanting to deal with them, especially if they've been rejected or neglected as a child. They all go through that same process. So now we're not just dealing with the fight flight, freeze, and now there's a fawn. And now, as I noticed, is that more and more people are dealing with narcissistic behavior. So that is actually future. It will exacerbate more child children as they grow up. So now we're dealing with more and more factors that contribute to. To adults behavior that we see today. So is there now in your group that you kind of try to teach, to reprogram the mind, Jason, to be able to detach yourself from all that?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, really, what a big part of the work I do with men is teach them to be. To become more conscious and present. So these things that often trigger us, right. Or trigger, really what it means is some kind of stimulus comes in and then some kind of pattern or reaction or behavior comes kind of just all happens automatically. Right. And we've all heard the kind of platitude. The, the work of so many of us is to be able to slow down our nervous system so we can move from these unconscious reactions to these kind of conscious choices where we can actually respond with intent in the moment and say, hey, wow, okay, this person just did something in me. And it's actually triggering some part of me that Feels overlooked or overseen or not noticed based, often connected into my childhood. And rather than just going into a habitual pattern response, I can take a deep breath, get grounded, and decide how do I want to move forward in this moment? Maybe if I advocate for myself and say, hey, I totally want to hear what you want to say, but I'm not okay with you talking to me using mean language like that. If you do that again, I'm going to leave the room. Right. And suddenly we've made a different choice for how we're showing up in that moment. And that is something we do have to train. And I see guys getting better at week in and week out. In men's group, one of the most potent ways we often use it is to workshop life. Right? So if we have a situation or a difficult conversation we need to have with someone work, we can actually kind of practice it in men's group or, you know, often in therapy as well, where we actually start to practice. What does it mean to share my experience here right now? And the beautiful thing about safe spaces like that is you get to be messy, you get to be sloppy. Okay, Whoa, that was a little too much anger. Okay, let's just step that back like two, two notches, right? Can you take a deep breath when you share that? Oh, that was perfect. Right? You felt firm, you didn't feel overbearing. I could receive that. Or whoa, man, like, you barely stood up for yourself. And more. You actually need to bring a little more fire. This is where we get that real time feedback and response so we can understand what's happening in our nervous system, which then makes it much easier to do in those higher stakes situations of our real relationships back in life.
Host: But then again, Jason, what we're talking about here with the groups is that this is a lifelong kind of unity. Because the thing is, is that there's thousands of scenarios that can trigger past traumatic experience to the, the men that's actually participating in the group. So let's say they deal with a co worker, they deal with a parent, they deal with a sibling, they deal with anyone in their direct environment. That and, and whatever is being said or the interaction that they have triggers a memory or trauma in that person, and then they freeze or they, they leave or whatever it is. How can you cover every potential scenario to be able to train that person or that man to be able to better handle it next time around?
Jason Lange: Sure. What I would say is we don't need to cover every scenario, but usually most of us have a particular handful of deep wounds that connect to our, our childhood, right? And by learning to go back and become more present, metabolize and really be present with that emotional content, it frees up and it liberates us to be a little more present in the moment. But the good news is, right, the skill set we build and even working a few of those things becomes translatable to every situation, right? One of the deepest skills I teach men is the very simple practice of slowing down and getting grounded and taking a few deep breaths in the moment, right? So, okay, my. Whatever triggered it, what happened is my nervous system got kicked up to some kind of sympathetic fight or flight, right? Or I'm totally collapsing and I'm falling into some shutdown, some freeze or some fawn. So the practice we really learn is how do I self regulate my nervous system to come right back to that ventral vagal place in the middle where I'm present, I'm connected in my prefrontal cortex is online, so I can make choices. And the good news is, right, there's different ways to train this. Meditative practices, yogic practices, there's long histories and traditions and all kinds of places of wild, what it means to practice getting more present and learning to deal with intensity. So, you know, these days, ice baths are the rage. Saunas, Kundalini, yoga, all these different things we can use to practice the sense of, okay, whatever kind of discomfort I'm feeling in my body, my heart, or in the environment around me, I can practice coming back to stillness, coming back to groundedness, coming back to choice. And the good news is, just like with any major sporting event, training works, right? We can actually develop these capacities. So more and more over time, we're, we're coming at things from this more grounded place.
Host: And also, I mean, some modalities are really helpful in that regard, such as emdr, which is eye movement.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: Vision and reprocessing. What allows people to deal with past traumatic experiences and know how to be able to manage all of that in a much more common collected way. So, I mean, depending on the which modality you use, I mean, obviously there's cognitive behavior, dialectical therapy, act, rebt, and all of those. But I think EMDR actually works the best, especially with situations such as this one. So those who actually are seeking specific therapy, I would definitely look into that modality specifically. But overall, like I said, I think those, those strategies that you suggested, Jason, where it allows people to be able to know how to breathe better. There's like the 468 tempo, which breathing for four second, keeping it for six and exhaling for eight. And so sometimes, you know, allowing more oxygen to come into your brain allows you to actually calm down faster. Because sometimes when we are stressed, we breathe quickly and we do not bring in enough oxygen because we are in a very stressful, you know, I would say zone. So that actually helps a lot as well.
Jason Lange: Yeah, exactly. And it, it takes training. Right. Even. And again, one of the reasons I'm such a huge fan of something like a men's group is we get to train in the relational space. So often the many triggers we have are what come up in relationships, right. Where we're trying to connect with people. And so the best place to train that is with other people. Right. There's only so much work we can do self journaling or sitting at home alone. Oftentimes the deepest healing modalities involve interacting with other people and, and building these skill sets and training. So, you know, a large part of my work as a men's guide is, yeah, I work with guys in group and then I get them offline and retreat, where we get to do this work with each other in person and really stretch our nervous system through all kinds of different practices so that we become comfortable and our capacity increases to hold more.
Host: Absolutely. So just to, to let our listeners know, what is the most common denominator that you see? Because as you mentioned earlier, about a handful triggers that can actually cause people to put themselves in those very stressful situations. So what are the common denominators or the common triggers that you have seen in your groups?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say it really kind of centers around emotions. And you know, the big ones I tend to see that really challenge men are they either don't know how to work with grief, anger, or shame.
Host: Okay.
Jason Lange: And these things are often running underneath the surface for so many men. And their avoidance of those will create all kinds of patterns for how they avoid stuff. It'll create a lot of fear in their life. But really, oftentimes what gets guys to me, which is, okay, something in my life just isn't working the way I want. I'm in some kind of pain, right. My relationship just ended, my wife wants to leave me, I'm overworked and exhausted, my kids aren't talking to me. There's all kinds of different surface manifestations. But usually what happens is men realize, okay, the skills and tools that got me here can't get me out of here, and I need help. And most of the men I work with, they come to that place, while also realizing they've basically tried to figure out everything alone, their whole lives, and they isolate and don't share. And that accumulates in our nervous system and makes it harder to get the support and do the things we want. So isolation, loneliness, those are two of the huge ones. Along with, you know, probably more than anything else, to be totally honest, what gets guys off the couch to get help is when they can't keep or attract the type of intimate relationship that they want. That is usually that's painful enough for guys that they're like, okay, I need help. I don't know how to do this. I've been on 100 first dates or my wife and I keep having the same fight over and over and over again and I just can't do it anymore. So what can I try? And that's when they'll show up to me.
Host: Absolutely. And also there's one thing that I've noticed in my practice as well, Jason, is that nowadays 81 of women initiate divorces. And what I've seen about loneliness when a woman, you know, like divorce a man, whatever it is that the one reason is that what I've noticed and tell me if I'm wrong. Okay, Jason. Where when starting a relationship, most women are, I would say, telling their significant other, hey, now that we're together and now you, you know, your old days of partying with your friends, that has to come to a stop. Etc. But yet women have the tendency to be able to keep their circle of. And they go well with them, but yet the man is left with no more friends because they basically let go of all their past friends just to be able to focus more and prioritize the relationship that they're in with their significant other. So at the end, after 10, 15 years of being married and they've lost their circle of friends all through those years, but yet the women have had the tendency to be able to cultivate or culture those relationship. So at the end, the man is left with no friends while the woman is left with still a very strong circle of friends. So maybe the, the not the benefit, but the advice that we should give is that whatever, whoever you meet, especially with the men's side, to keep your friendships because at the end this is basically your support system that will help you go through those difficult moments, especially after the end of a relationship.
Jason Lange: Yeah, this is the. You're on to a key thing where a lot of men wait until the crisis to build community and brotherhood and friendship. And a big part of what I tell Men is don't wait till the crisis. Get the support system in now, which will help you navigate these big challenges in life. And you're totally right. Men, I think somewhat because of culture, somewhat because of biology, we're way more likely to neglect our relationships and friendships. Right. And it's something crazy. Like, you know, back in the 90s, 3% of men reported not having many close friendships. And over the last year, that's jumped to over 15% of men. And it's just accelerating, right. With social media and this kind of parasocial makes us feel like we're in connection, but it's just not often something we're taught to do as men. We're often taught to see other men as competition. And then for a lot of us guys, because no one has taught us what else to do, we mostly bond with other guys by doing things together. Right. Activities or things. What happens when we get into a relationship, maybe have kids, work a lot? We. We don't have as much time. And that's one of the first things, like you said, that often goes. And then the friendships kind of lose connection because of that. Whereas a lot of women, you know, again, we're speaking in generalizations here. They'll keep relationships going even if they're not seeing each other. Right. A quick test. Text message, chatting on the phone here. And guys just aren't really as good at doing that in my experience. So I help teach men. Yeah, hey, connection is its own medicine. And all the challenges you have in life, guess what? It gets way easier when you have a support system around you.
Host: Absolutely.
Host: That's so true. So before we end this podcast, can you briefly let people know where they can Find your men's group.
Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. If you are kind of into what I'm talking about, you can go over to my website, Evolutionary Dot Men. So it's not dot com, but it's dot Men. And on there I have a podcast, I have writings, and I have tons of programs that are oriented to getting men into men's groups. And if you don't know where to get started, even if you don't work with me, just reach out on my contact form. If you're like, hey, where do I find a group? How do I find a group? I'm very passionate about getting men connected with any resources near them, geographically or even these days. The good news is virtually as well. So don't wait for the crisis. Try to get ahead of things now, guys.
Host: Excellent. Well, Jason, that is all the time that we have for today's podcast. And again, thank you sincerely for taking the time out of your busy schedule to join us. And we all appreciate your participation to this episode teaching the importance of emotional intelligence in men and the impact it can have if not practiced diligently. Now, to our millions of listeners out there, we hope that you've all enjoyed today's episode as much as we did. And also, we're very excited about what's ahead in season 32 of the Happiness Journey podcast, featuring a lineup of incredible guests with powerful stories that will continue to uplift and inspire all of you. Now, here are some concluding words of wisdom. Emotional intelligence is not a weakness in men. It is a strength that shapes lasting success in life and relationships. When men learn to recognize, regulate and express their emotions, they build deeper trust and stronger connections. Practice constantly. Emotional awareness reduces conflict and increases respect both at home and in leadership roles. It allows men to respond thoughtfully rather than react impulsively, creating stability during challenges. Now, over time, emotional intelligence fosters confidence rooted in self mastery, not control. It improves communication, strengthens partnerships, and models healthy behavior for future generations. A man who understand his emotion doesn't lose power. He gains influence, clarity, and long term fulfillment. My name is Dr. Dan Amzelak and you may all keep pursuing your amazing journey in life. Stay tuned for our next episode.
