177. From Anger to Awareness with Jason Lange | Restorative Grief with Mandy Capehart

Host: Oh, hi there, friends. Mandy. Here, Restorative Grief is all about creating easy access to healing, no matter where or who you are. That's why I want you to remember that if you want grief support Beyond a podcast, my 31 day guidebook is available to order on Amazon. Embracing Our Losses Without Losing Ourselves is a reflective journey into the holistic needs of grievers and learning to support yourself, mind, heart, body and spirit. Don't just wing it. You can lean into grief work with a guide. The link for the book and more are available in the show notes and as always, you can reach out with questions, but for now link, get on to this week's episode. Welcome back to Restorative Grief with Mandy Capehart. You are listening to episode 177 titled From Anger to Awareness with Jason Lange. We don't really need a fact or a statistic to tell us that. Historically, levels of loneliness and isolation are often off the charts these days, but especially with men, I see a lot of hesitancy and even fear around this idea of grief work and vulnerability. Today my guest is Jason Lange, a men's embodiment coach and facilitator who guides men through personal development, helping them deepen their relationships, find clarity in their life's purpose, and embrace the shadow work within to uncover their full potential. He's here today talking with me about the power, powerful insights he knows and has learned about men's emotional growth and how that can help facilitate healing and awareness of intentional grief work in their lives. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Restorative Grief with Mandy Capehart. I'm your host, Mandy, of course. And today I'm really excited to bring this transformative guest to the show. Jason Lange is a men's embodiment coach and group facilitator, working with men all around who are wanting a deeper connection to their emotional states and to learn how to grow from within, which is an incredible. An incredible decision to say I'm going to do. I want to do that hard work with a historically difficult group accessing emotion. So welcome, Jason, to the show.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'm so pumped to be here. Thanks so much for having me, Mandy.

Host: Absolutely. So you've worked at this point with countless men uncovering deep emotions and, and like I said, helping them to grow from within. What do you think that means for men in the context of grief to grow with intention and how they can see grief as a pathway into growth overall?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say for so many of us guys, you know, grief ties into this larger construct of, you know, what it means to be a man. And what we might call the patriarchy, the man box, there's all kinds of different words for it. But something I, you know, experienced in my own ways growing up and now witness in so many men, is that from a young age, a lot of times us boys, thus men, are actually trained to get outside of our bodies, which in the work I do includes our bodies start as sensations, right? Our emotions start as sensations in our bodies. And, you know, this idea of, stop crying, be tough, pick yourself up for many boys actually starts when they're quite young, right. Don't be a crybaby. And then gets woven together with a couple other key things, which for, you know, good or bad, most boys are raised in kind of the public education system, which just because of the way it's set up, when you think about it, it's okay, sit still for eight hours. Yeah, don't move your body. And kids, and I would argue boys in particular, we need to move our bodies. We're kinesthetic, we have lots of energy, and we actually learn through a tactile kind of kinesthetic exploration of the world. And so from that area, we get this message early on, ignore your body, override it with your head. Sit still. And then we get into our. Our teenage years, our adolescent years, where there's this kind of often locker room culture. Some boys are developing, some boys aren't crushes might start to be happening, all kinds of different things. Our bodies are changing and there's this extreme pressure to conform to. To be on the inside, right? And often what puts you on the outside is any kind of vulnerability or emotion. And so, again, we're taught, okay, I can't share what's inside of me with other boys. And because many men I work with are, you know, at the worst end, were heavily bullied. The best end, just were ostracized, just were kicked out of the group. And then that kind of continues in some pretty potent ways of, you know, at this point, unfortunately, it's everyone but the kind of consumer capitalist, work hard, no matter what, 80 hours a week. Great. Keep pushing your body. Keep going, keep going, keep going. Which again, teaches us, whatever's happening inside your body, ignore it. And thus we ignore our emotions. And so many men I work with are just not taught what is going on inside their bodies, let alone what do I do with it. And so grief in particular is one that I do a lot of work with men in live retreats. And where I really show this, this one really shows up is for some guys, the only emotion they're allowed to share is anger, right? It's considered manly, being tough, being mad, pushing out. And it's actually not even just anger, it's, it's the most poisonous form of that, which is aggression, right? Where I take my feelings and I push them out without consent on other people. And then these days there's even a huge swath of men that don't even feel comfortable with anger because they grew up seeing volatile, angry men who had no control over their bodies or emotional experience and often would cause damage, sometimes literally to them as boys, to their mothers, to their spouses, whatever that might be. But what I've seen is for a lot of guys, once I get em on retreat or into a program or this was the case for me, and they're in a safe space, they're not being judged, it turns out they've been holding so much emotion and sometimes it'll come out initially as anger. But what I've seen time and time again is by going into anger, it almost always transmutes into anguish, the deep, deep hurt underneath the times in their lives where they were dropped, ignored, mocked, bullied, felt alone, felt not enough. And that there's often just a tremendous well of grief for so many men. Some of them realize it, some of them don't even know. So one, when I first started getting into this work, I got lucky in my 20s and got into a men's group and the first kind of older male facilitator that worked with me, you know, I had been in some talk therapy for a while, but was doing kind of about 10, 15 minutes of somatic work with him in a group. And within 15 minutes was on my back weeping, just fully weeping, crying out like a little boy, hold me, hold me, hold me. And I was like, what on earth was that?

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Whoa. I did not know I had that in me and had been carrying that in me since I was an infant, truth be told. And I've just seen that time and time again. For men, there is so much grief in holding and hurt, just actual hurt that has never been okay for them to share or to bring forward or they haven't, they don't even know. I get a lot of guys coming to me now and they're like, I wish I could cry, I wish I could cry. I know I should and I can't. They just, they're locked off. And oftentimes what starts to shift, that is the communal, the relational thing of once loving presence comes in. Sometimes it's a touch on the heart or on the back, just things melt and something comes forward and there's a massive release for so, so many men I work with.

Host: Yeah, there's so much I love that you said anger. It really reveals anguish because that is such a beautiful description of that tortured experience when we haven't been heard, when we don't have safety to even explore what in us needs to be heard, or when we haven't had a need met as a young person, to your point, even in infancy, that remains in our bodies. It follows us through. And if we lack safety over and over and over again, getting to that state of being available to vulnerability is nearly impossible, and certainly nearly impossible in a day to day life basis. So embodiment work that you're describing, done in a safe atmosphere is incredible and also incomprehensible to a lot of people. You had this beautiful testimonial. There were a bunch of them on your website, of course, but you had one that I just wanted to read because it was so meaningful. It says, quote, in my retreat with Jason, I was able to show a side of myself that had buried. Been buried a long time ago. I've always struggled to show grief and sadness in front of others. That wasn't the case here. What about the atmosphere of your work and these retreats creates a sense of safety and security for men to allow themselves to be seen as vulnerable. Because we can say we're a safe space all day, every day that is meaningless until someone resonates and says, oh, I found safety in this space. So what is it about this gentleman's experience that you have been able to duplicate for others?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say, first and foremost, I want to give him credit in that he was ready. Yeah, he chose. He was ready. And I can create the tightest, safest container in the world. And it still comes down to each man to lean into that moment when they might have to do something they've never done before, which is release, which is feel. And beyond that, I would say it's. It's maybe two things, the first of which is, you know, a little bit more traditional mindset. It's actually creating a culture to subvert and push back against all that programming we get, as I sometimes joke. And actually one of my first podcasts was this redefinition of Real Men Feel Everything, which is this idea that when you really think about it, it's like, well, who's really more afraid? The uptight guy who is so afraid of his grief, he pushes it out immediately, rejects it, moves away from it at all costs. Or the man who is strong enough to just turn towards it and feel it, to really let himself feel it. And when guys. And they're like, okay, I don't know, like, you know, they're like, maybe that sounds nice. But then the beauty of group and why I emphasize men's groups so strongly is. Is what happens when they see it. So all the programming gets subverted with, wow. You know, even I was just on this retreat like a month ago, and, you know, first impressions are such a big thing, I think, particularly for men. So there was one guy who was, you know, he's like 5 7. You know, he considers himself short. I don't think he's too short, but just like built like an ox, works out all day, like heavy in a muscular way. And a lot of guys were intimidated by him. And then he sees this other guy who's like 64 and is like, wow, that guy is like. And they both have this experience of realizing their projections were so off and had the experience of seeing each other. These men they had labeled as tough, more manly men emote, release, grieve, and by the end of that, realize that, wow. Actually, the fact that he did that, I trust him more. I feel like he's actually stronger for having seen him do that. And this is part of the, I guess in a good way, kind of contagion that can happen in the groups of when we actually see a man in his full emotional experience, not posturing, you know, pretending to be tough or pushing it away, but also not fully collapsing and being totally overtaken by it. But just like, it's here, it's in me, it's moving through me. Almost immediately there's a transmission of, oh, I didn't even know that was possible. Nobody told me, Nobody showed me that a man could be fully in his grief and still feel extremely powerful and courageous and brave. And I try to set the container for that right by certain practices and exercises and honestly, relentlessly getting men into their bodies and kind of wearing them down. So all those defenses that normally would be there, they kind of start to fall away. And then we have agreements around safety. And for a lot of guys, I will say, the being in a group of men allows something else to soften because there's no having to posture to impress anyone else. A lot of times that I mostly work with hetero guys, but I work with a mix. But there's still this kind of, you know, when you're out mixing with other People sometimes, you know, I. I can't do that. But in a group, suddenly there's the shared reality of, well, we're all dealing with this. And when I ask guys, you know, how many of you, when's the last time you cried? And, you know, maybe two can raise their hand, it's like, wow, we're all holding this. You know, something starts to open up in. In the culture, in the community, and. And then probably the other biggest thing is just getting to see the actual physiological transformation that happens to men when they start letting go in, releasing. So one of the chronic things a lot of guys come to me with is I'm exhausted, I'm tired all the time. I don't have enough energy for my life, for my relationship, for my kids, or I don't feel anything. I'm numb, I'm so depressed I can barely move. It's kind of on a spectrum. And turns out there's a huge correlation right between, like you said, if we're not feeling something, and, you know, anyone listening, you can kind of imagine this in your body right now. Even if there's like, imagine you were deeply wailing, releasing, crying, and then someone comes up to you and just very forcefully is like, stop crying. How do you do that?

Host: Yeah, you.

Jason Lange: Your body tightens up. Yeah, you hold it in. You stop breathing, and there's. So there's an actual constriction. We, like, hold that with attention in our bodies and. And as I'm sure. Well, you know, doesn't go anywhere when any emotion you hold in your body, it actually takes active metabolic energy to hold it in, which then takes away our life force, takes away our vitality in particular. You know, I think we can. You can see it in certain people as they age, their bodies will actually start to take the shape of what they're holding. And so in retreats, you know, men start to step in and have these emotional expressions and releases and finally just let go of certain things. And it is actually watching their bodies transform, their eyes soften, vitality comes back to their face, their breath deepens, they take up more space. There's actually suddenly more life force there. And it's infectious. It's like, wow, I can feel you so much more than I could feel you before. I want to try that. And so another man will, you know, kind of step into the space. And in a sense, it's like seeing dominoes kind of fall. And I tell each man, you know, every time a single man has the bravery to step into this kind of vulnerable Space, you're actually leading the way to make it easier for other men because then they see it and it rewrites their story and they're like, well, if he can do that, I can do that. And then that man steps in and it just keeps going down the chain.

Host: There's this incredible vulnerability that, that comes through strength. Honestly, I cannot define the word vulnerability without naming strength, and I cannot define strength without naming vulnerability. They're part and parcel. They cannot be separated. And as I encounter people who do not have a comprehension or a grid for that, it. It reminds me that the majority of people fail to realize the wisdom and the importance of including their body in their holistic process. So when I'm working with people, I'm constantly pointing back, heart, mind, body, spirit, you are all of this and more, calling all of that into the round table. When you need insight or peace or wisdom, that's a gift. That's. That's. That itself is wisdom, because that allows you to really wrestle with not just mindset or a really good program. Oh, I've got this great life coaching book. And so this is going to be everything. The truth is, if you are not aware of the way that you approach said life coaching book, then that book's going to fail you and the next book is going to fail you. I love that your process of allowing men to start to break open in that space speaks to the attunement that they gain by noticing. If he can do it, so can I. Because that's something where kind of harkening back to your early comments about the behavior management of schools and the way that we require compliance over playfulness, really. And learning reminds me too of like, yeah, there's that, well, I can do it better than him. That seems sounds very removed from your environment. Not I can do it better than him, but I can follow. I can learn. I can. If that's in him, maybe that's in me too. I'm curious. How often do you experience one person in the room who's like, nope. I mean, I know I came here of my own free will and this was my idea, but I'm not there yet. How much resistance remains?

Jason Lange: Yeah, definitely. I get men who I haven't gotten like too much active resistance, but I have gotten. And we. I speak very explicitly in setting up my weekends and programs to the importance of honoring your edge. That some men actually get to their edge, and that's as comfortable as they're going to be in that moment, in that for the whole thing to work we're talking about. That actually has to be principle number one, that no one has to go any further and they're ready to, and that we can all honor ourselves in that every person's movement can look completely differently. And what I mean by that is one man, you know, we might be doing some breath work or something and have a huge cathartic, just weeping release. And for another man, he might just get a few tears. But for him, that movement from here to there is just as astronomical for his lineage and family system as anything else. Like, it is a massive move compared to where he's been in his life. And in a sense, we want to celebrate that like crazy. Like crazy when we see it. So some men, you know, don't open as much as others, but they start to get in the field of it. And I see even if it doesn't bring on a full catharsis, let's say it starts to move some energy, something in them, a process begins that might take 10 retreats, five years to complete. And that's okay. So I don't. I'm not a fan of, like, pushing guys in that sense, but it's more creating a space that when they're ready, they can open into. And I find that works pretty, pretty well. And it does create, like, it's interesting when you were talking, it's a way of reframing kind of masculine competition, like, oh, he did it. I gotta do it better. And it actually becomes inspiration. Yeah, wow, he did it. I can do it too. And that's what will often pull guys in. They're like, I'm just so tired of holding this and carrying this, and I don't know how this is going to go, and I'm scared, but here I am, and off to the races. But for every guy that's going to look different. And part of my job as a facilitator is to deeply attune to them and to honor them, whatever their movement might be, as men.

Host: So what does it look like for men who have worked with you in, let's say it's their first or even second retreat going back into their daily lives where they may not have the resources, the support. They may be single and have no one that they live with to keep them on page with themselves, and may not be in a supportive relationship or have family members, people speaking kind of against or even just repeating the narrative the family is comfortable with. What is the next step for that man who is in his life, in his daily experience, trying to maintain connection to and attunement with himself.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Well, the first thing I tell all my guys when they go on retreat with me is hey, I got bad news for you. Retreat's the easy part.

Host: Yeah.

Host: Yes.

Jason Lange: The truth is not everyone can receive you in that place. Just the raw truth. Your family members may never be able to get to the place where they can be present for you emotionally and attuned to you because they have a level of work they just haven't done.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And if they're not comfortable with grief in themselves, they are not going to be comfortable with grief in you. Just a polarity I see all the time.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: So what I do teach guys is two things. One, you never know until you try. So sometimes you do have to be the one to go first. And you may be surprised who joins you, but you also have to be ready for they may never join you may never be open to relating in this kind of way. And so there are certain relationships where it's entirely appropriate to be more boundaried or transactional because you know, they're just, they don't have the capacity to meet you in that place. And then number two, the, the, the second thing is. Well, once we become aware of this capacity inside of ourselves, it becomes our responsibility to find community and culture to nourish this. And what I mean by that is we have to get ourselves as men into spaces we feel safe. Right. That that actually becomes our responsibility. And you know, the main way I push that is to find a men's group. To find a group of an intentionally like minded men who are on this journey with you. But that's just one tool, honestly. Coaching relationships, therapeutic relationships. Finding places where it's safe for you to bring your full self forward is incredibly important. And the only way this stuff is going to stick because like I said, I don't care how deep or profound your opening on retreat is, it won't last. It will not last. We always Close back up. Never quite as tight as we did before. But there will be a time of closure in your life. And that's where community and relationships become kind of the place for you to land into to help you open back up over time. And why, you know, some of the men that come on retreat with me, they become each other's biggest allies in life because they're like, actually no, I know who you really are. I've been with you, I've seen you. I know what it's like when your heart is open and I'm going to remind you when you forget. And that's just been a great gift. I've seen in the continuity of some of the relationships I've seen men make as well.

Host: I think that spectrum of openness, being able to maintain a state of openness as time goes on and as you continue to do the work and really learn to regulate yourself and tolerate that discomfort of like exposure or ah, this is a vulnerable thing I've never done. Now I'm crying at work.

Jason Lange: Oh no.

Host: And really recognizing like, is it an oh no? Are you okay? Can you be safe for just a moment like that? That is a muscle we build right over time. I'm curious about this because you're right about the like the long term camaraderie that comes from mountaintop weekends where you feel like the world is open to you on every level. And then, and then real life says, actually it's Monday morning and it's , so you are late. What, where would you start encouraging someone to look for a men's group specifically? Because the majority. When you say men's group, all I hear is Bible study or I hear like generational wisdom passing kind of an environment where it is less of a group and more of a teaching setting in every experience. And not to say that retreats aren't for teaching, they are. But I think finding a men's group can be a really challenging experience in and of itself. Frustrating even as you attend and you realize like, oh well, these aren't the ones. And now I've gone to three and they're all unhelpful for me. How, how do you recommend men start looking for a group they can attune with?

Jason Lange: Yeah, that's, it's such a great noticing because I got in my first group in like 2005 and I just, I was very lucky to be living in a place in the US where this kind of work was taken off. But pretty much everywhere else you say men's group people are Going to refer to, yeah, a church group or maybe a addiction recovery group. And they both can have tremendous benefit. But it's a little different than what I'm speaking to. And the great news is, right, there's never been a better time to find one because there is finally this kind of tidal wave coming of, hey, men, you can't lone wolf it through life and it is actually going to kill you. It does. It, like, takes men down physically. They have all kinds of research around loneliness and isolation and what it does to heart disease, and it's pretty brutal. And I think there is this realization that, you know, particularly going through Covid and work from home, like, we need community deeply. And so there's a lot more men's groups forming both in localities and then the beauty of this kind of technology you and I are meeting on is it's now available virtually. So if you're in a small town or area of the country where it's not physically around you, you can now plug in online. And while, I mean, I love working with men in person, like, there's just nothing quite as vital as sharing that space. It's just blown me away, like, how effective an online group can be to get those connections and start building that trust and safety. So it really kind of comes down to starting the search and, you know, meetup.com eventbrite the Mankind Project. You kind of just have to. It's a little bit like dating. You kind of have to try some out and try to find one with the right energy and see, you know, what's going on here in men's groups. You know, kind of like meditation. They can mean so many things. So it's also you getting clear about what you want. Is it. Yeah, more of an accountability group. Is it? A. Some men's groups are like philosophical discussion groups. Some are more about embodiment. Some are more about support and connection. A good one's going to have a lot of those things tied together. So it's first just making the decision, I want this, and then seeing if there.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Are there any structures near you? And then the kind of more radical thing I'd probably share is you also don't need anyone to start one. And what I mean by that is what has changed a lot of men I've worked with is just this realization that, you know, if I'm really honest, there are probably like two or three guys from my life. Like, we've kind of sometimes danced around deeper topics, and I can tell they're kind of hungry for it and it's taking the bowl, it's being bold enough to take the lead and say, hey, here's what I want. I would like us to get together twice a month for two hours each time and talk about what's going on in our lives and get real. Not talk about sports, not talk about philosophy, not talk about politics, but actually talk about what hurts in our lives and what do we want? You know, so you could do a whole group as simple as that. And it's pretty amazing, you know, sometimes how much guys have to share once they're given the space. Like it can. It sometimes blows away men when they're like, yeah, I asked two guys and it turns out they had a lot to share. They really liked it. So I always throw that out there that if you can't find something, start something. And I'm incredibly passionate. You know, part of my mission is that I think every man should be in a men's group for the emotional processing, the grief, support the community and connection, if nothing else. And so I'm always an asset as well to just help guys find them. I run things myself, but to me it's not about working with me, it's about finding a group that's going to nourish you, which by extension will nourish your family, your community, etc.

Host: I think about the man who is hearing you and thinking like, oh yeah, cool, but I'm not a leader. I don't want to teach people. And I love how you said, oh, you actually just show up and ask a question. It's not about having a curriculum or having an agenda. It is about being capable of holding space for someone to exist exactly as they are without correction or teaching or direction. I think that that itself is really, really challenging to develop. How do you develop that in the people you work with and call that that belief in themselves that they can hold space for someone without making a mistake and causing more harm or, or accidentally, you know, teaching and deciding, let's read a book together because this is too hard.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I guess that would point to the benefit of working with a mentor or group of some capacity where someone else is holding the deeper structure and you get to experience it and see it. And then like I said, there's like this transmission that happens that once often, you know, the neuro. Neuro mirror neurons kick in and we witness it. It's easier to replicate it of like, oh, I can see how. Or someone just held presence for me and I can feel like, wow, no one's ever done that. For me in my whole life. And I can start to track what's different about that, which makes it easier for me to bring it forth with someone else because it does take practice. Right. It is a skill set that, like I said, so many of us, men in particular, are just incredibly malnourished in, haven't been taught to do and that we have to develop. You know, what it means, but at its edits most simply. You know, I think what you just caught on there of whether it's in a group or not, it's for so many men, we default to relating via triangulation. So me and you have our attention on a third thing. And it's by having our attention on this third thing, we get to feel connected and bond. But. Right. There's so many stories these days of, you know, people. Men go out with their men and come back and someone might ask him, like, oh, how's so and so's marriage? What? I don't know. We didn't even talk about that. Right. There's a way you can spend a lot of time with men but not actually be connecting with them, which is where some of this loneliness comes from in a men's group, kind of what we're talking about. Even if it's just one on one, all that really happens is we just turn our attention to each other. My attention is on you, your attention is on me, not this third thing. And that's where a lot can open up for men pretty, pretty spectacularly. And if you just marry that with, you know, most people, men included, we don't really want to be fixed. We usually just want to be heard. Just want to be heard. We just want to get a sense someone's listening. And when we get a sense someone's listening, oftentimes that's enough. Sometimes, yeah, we want some practical advice, but a lot of times we don't even need that. Um, but men's work in general, which. The work I do around grief and emotions and men's groups kind of falls under that umbrella. It's really the path that I was trained in for. Yeah. How do you learn to become more present for yourself and for whoever you're with that leads to deeper connection, more safety, more trust, et cetera.

Host: Jason, I'm curious. For men or even women listening who are intrigued, inspired, still nervous, hesitant, and aren't quite ready to say, okay, yeah, let me go be face to face with people, strangers. Are there any books or authors or speakers that you have been encouraged or inspired by in your own work? That you would recommend?

Jason Lange: Yeah, Some of my mentors that I love, Dr. Robert Glover, who wrote no More Mr. Nice Guy, which is kind of one of the big books that opens a lot of men into their inner world. John Weinland, who I studied under for a number of years, really focuses on embodiment in terms of emotional access. One of my mentors, Robert Masters, has some really great books. And, you know, even compared to when I was learning all this stuff, I mean, we now have platforms like this where you can actually listen in two men talking in a different way and start to get that kind of vibration of, oh, wait, yeah, it can be pretty different. And I've never heard anyone talk like that before, talk about that before. And. And sometimes what I found is that can be really what I've particularly found. And part of why I'm here is like, men love podcasts. I just love podcasts. They listen to hours of podcasts. Right. Like, guys sometimes, by the time they get to me, they're like, yeah, I've heard all your stuff. And we're talking like hundreds of hours sometimes. But it. But it's a way to kind of start to build some intimacy without, you know, having to fully jump into, okay, I'm going over there into that room full of people I've never met. But there's a way I can kind of start to plug into a different energy and community. So I would say listening to stuff like this is also a great on ramp of just getting exposed to these different ideas of what's possible as a man in that I can guarantee, you know, from my own experience and having led hundreds of men, you know, in the theme of this show, the more comfortable you are just going straight towards your grief, the better your life is gonna get.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: The less you resist it, it's just like, okay, I'm just gonna be with this. And so much becomes possible after that. And it's not like it's airy fairy. Everything is so much easier and magically fixed. But life gets a lot better. Like, a lot better in. In the relational aspect particularly. What I've seen is, you know, you probably know this too. Like, some emotions, and particularly grief, they're not really meant to be felt alone. It historically was a communal relational thing. We would grieve in community with song, with dance, with ceremony. And sometimes it actually takes the loving presence of another person to unlock our grief. Right. My wife was reading this book about, can't remember where, but it was, um, maybe an indigenous tribe, I think, in South America, where they have, like, the professional griever. So it's if someone has had loss, right, that person comes along and starts. Starts grieving. And that actually gets the energy moving for the person who needs to have the big release because it creates this kind of field of openness like we were talking about as each man goes. So the more you just get exposed, the better in my book.

Host: Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly, Jason. How can someone who's not afraid and ready to just listen to podcasts or read books reach out to you and learn more about what you do and what you offer?

Jason Lange: Yeah. Best way to keep up with me is to go to Evolutionary Men. So it's not dot com, but it's dot men. And on there you can see my programs, my own podcast writings I've done, and there's a contact form, so you can always just write me a message. It's like, hey, I want to find a group. How do I do it? You know, I have a lot of resources at this point of knowing what's out there, and we'll do my best to just kind of get you on a trajectory, whether it's with me or not.

Host: I love that. Thank you, Jason. I think the awareness that this conversation will bring is already an excellent step in the right direction. So thank you for being here. I really appreciate it.

Jason Lange: Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Mandy.

Host: Absolutely. Thank you for listening to episode 177 of Restorative Grief. If there's one thing I'm taking away from this conversation today, it's that Jason is right. Men need community just as much as the rest of us, and the idea that vulnerability can be developed and supported and valued in a men's community is nothing new. It's simply hard to remember sometimes. So if you're listening today, I really want to challenge you. If you fall in the demographic, to reach out to Jason or even look up his work or listen to his podcast, do something for yourself that feels a little bit courageous, a little bit vulnerable, and see if there isn't a possibility of growth just waiting for you. If this is your first time listening, listening to the podcast, thank you so much for taking the risk to be here and to listen to something that might be a little different or uncomfortable for you. Be sure to check out the show notes to see where Jason can be found online and even book a free exploratory call with him about what might be going on in your life and how his coaching can support you. Thanks as always to my patrons. If you're interested in becoming a patron or accessing a workbook for this episode. Those links are in the show notes as well. Be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and before we go, as always, one last thing. Please remember the only solution to grief is to do the work of grieving. Thank you for listening. I'll see you next week.