Every Man Should Be in a Men’s Group with: Jason Lange | Lets Have This Conversation

Host: Let's talk about the intentionality of forming friendships and the critical role that plays in the mental, emotional and psychological development and growth of men. According to my friends at the PBS NewsHour, they report that men in today's 21st century are suffering from an inability to to make and maintain friendships with long lasting people that they can count on when they need emotional and social assistance to get through both the trying times in life and celebrating triumphs. The outlet says that men are currently going through a friendship recession with 20% of American single men admitting that they don't have any close friends. Meanwhile, more than half of all American men currently say that they're unsatisfied with the size of their friend groups at large. Moreover, men are finding it more difficult than their female counterparts to get emotional support from their friends every week by a clip of 21% from men and 41% from women. And finally, 15% of American men under the age of 30 say they don't have a close friend, which is up from 3% in 1990. For my friend Jason Lange, he believes that every man should be a part of a men's group in order to increase their social capital and build stronger and long lasting relationships. Love. Lang spends his days as a men's embodiment coach, group facilitator, and evolutionary guide who helps men drop in and wake up to deeper clarity in their life's purpose and relationships. He's trained with leaders such as John Wineland, Dr. Robert Glover, June Parasi, Triple Engin, and Ken Wilber. And he joined me this week to tell me more about how participating in men's groups can help with improving your mental and emotional health Overall. I'm Kevin McShan. Let's have this conversation, Jason, if you're ready, I'll take a moment to welcome you to the program, my friend. And I'm super excited to learn how to help men with their mental health charges. My friend. Great to see you and thanks so very much for being here.

Jason Lange: Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me, Kevin.

Host: Absolutely. So, Jason, I know that you're a strong believer that every man should be a part of a men's group, my friend. And I'm wondering if you can share with me why, why, why you hold that philosophy, my friend.

Jason Lange: Yeah. First off, just based on my own experience of what it's brought to me in my life and now that I support other men in doing this, seeing what it brings to other men's lives in that the issue that so many men I know deal with right now, Kevin Is a feeling of isolation, loneliness, and having to hold everything inside. We're kind of fed this narrative of, you know, the tough American man, rugged, individualist cowboy, the lone wolf, so to. So to speak. And the problem with that is it's not really how we're supposed to be in the world. When men hold things inside, it creates stress and tension in their lives, creates depression.

Host: It creates.

Jason Lange: Creates autoimmune disorders. It actually lowers life expectancy. Right. They have research that shows being so called lonely, identifying as lonely is just as dangerous as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day, so you will die faster from isolation. And so a men's group is an intentional place for men to get together, to actually be the antidote to that, to how can we learn to connect, get present, reveal what's going on inside of ourselves and help each other get clear about what it is we're wanting to move towards in life. And a good friend of mine, another man, once gave me this phrase, you know, community is immunity. And that the more connected to community we feel in life, the more resilient we can actually be in the world. And that's a massive disruption for a lot of men that are taught they have to do it all alone and keep it inside. And when they come into a men's group, they find they have a place where they can be supported and let go and feel. And the energy and vitality that frees up allows them to be even more present back in their lives.

Host: Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to talk to you about the idea of creating, gaining additional clarity. As you just mentioned, having the additional support is a very big driver in terms of gaining the clarity that men need to have to define their purpose, my friend. So I'm curious if you can talk to me about gaining clarity and the importance of men a place on doing that once they get into the men's group, my friend. What is the importance in terms of gaining clarity?

Jason Lange: Sure. One of the biggest sources of stress in the world is uncertainty, right? So when we're in an uncertain frame, we don't know what we're doing, what we want, what, what the next action should be. It creates a lot of tension in our systems. And then when we couple that with. For a lot of men, we're kind of just given this escalator we're supposed to get on in life of, you know, go to school, get a job, work really hard, start a family, retire. And a lot of men never even take the opportunity to slow down in and really get clear about what it is they want. To create in their family or in their romantic life or in their professional life and why they want to do it. Decide what the culture is. Culture is teaching us. So a men's group, a group of men can give us feedback and help us get clear about what it is. Quite simply, we're wanting in life what the next action step is, and it can help us resolve some of the uncertainty we often hold. And I see this all the time in groups where a man might be sharing about something. You know, I'm not sure if I should leave my job, you know, da, da, da, or I could apply for this other job. And oftentimes, in sharing things like that, our bodies are revealing a incredible amount of information that other men can pick up and reflect to us, such as, wow, you know, every time you talked about leaving your job, your energy went way up. You were smiling, you felt really relaxed. Every time you talked about staying at your job, you kind of hunched over, your voice dropped down, and it was clear which one had more power in your nervous system. And sometimes we're not aware of that. Of, like, wow, I didn't even realize how much I'm actually dreading my job. And men can reflect that. And suddenly we have that clarity of, oh, yeah, that is what I'm feel. I'm so ready to leave. And then we go out and take action. And that's one of the many gifts that brotherhood in the context of a men's group can help us is it can help us get clearer about what we're feeling and what we want.

Host: Yeah, I wanted to talk to you about the idea of creating, you know, social capital, you know, in terms of giving a man sort of that community of support and really have heavenly opportunity to start conversations of what I call consequence. Because, you know, sometimes it's harder for men to be more vulnerable. My friends, and tell me about starting conversations and consequence that can really help men develop from a personal standpoint. Warrior thoughts there, my friend. On the. The importance of social capital.

Jason Lange: It's so important, you know, a common experience. A lot of men I know have is, yeah, maybe they have some friends and they go out and do things. They watch a sports game, they play an activity or whatever, and yet after it, they go home and they're still feeling alone, they're still feeling lonely. Because while you did a lot of stuff, nobody was actually talking about what was going on inside of them. And a lot of men are taught by default how to relate, Kevin, through what I call triangulation, which just basically means you and I bond by having our attention on some third thing, a sports game, an activity. We're bonding by putting our focus on something else. What that misses is putting our focus on each other. So these deeper conversations, this deeper connection you're talking about, when men turn their attention on each other, which is one of the big part reasons I argue for a men's group, we're able to actually reveal and talk about what's going on inside of us. Where am I in pain? Where am I hurting? Where do I feel stuck? What am I wanting? What am I celebrating? What I've been, what have I been achieving? And by revealing those things, paradoxically, often by revealing our struggles to those who care, particularly other men, those men will often resonate with that. And then the feeling we often get is, oh, I'm not alone. Other people understand there's nothing particularly wrong with me. Right. I feel some bonding here. I feel some brotherhood. I feel connection. And connection is one of the primary medicines for helping us feel regulated and good in life. Right. We co regulate with other human beings by dropping into deep presence with them. And a lot of men, it's a big edge to do that and reveal their inner world. Because most men have been taught since they were young that sharing anything inside makes you weak, makes you less of a man. And for some guys, very notably, they actually get attacked for it, verbally, physically bullied, hurt, made fun of, ostracized. So there's a reason these things build, but it's not sustainable throughout life. So building the social capital of being able to go deeper and have meaningful conversations about what's actually happening inside it is so good for men's mental health. I've seen it transform so many men's lives, including my own.

Host: Yeah, I'm so only my friend to that point. My friend, I'm curious to get your thoughts. You know, the mental health charity Movember recently did a study that revealed that 60% of men don't share their feelings with anyone or how they're feeling, my friends. So let's continue the conversation by asking you about what do you think is going to take. Get more men, more force coming with their feelings? What are your thoughts on those findings by Movember and what, what are your thoughts on. On how we can get more men to share their feeling?

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's a huge problem. And the transformation is, it's a cultural transformation. So it's actually starting to redefine, you know, what healthy masculinity in men are, that it's not about this kind of stoic keep it all inside, but that it's okay to feel and reveal. And in fact, it's healthier to feel and reveal. And as I, as I sometimes frame it to men is a bit of a reframe, which is challenging to some guys. You know, I'm like, well, tell me, who's more afraid as a man? A guy who's afraid of his feelings and his emotions, or a man who's willing to step right into them and feel them? And usually there's pretty quickly like, oh, yeah, there's a type of courage and bravery to step in and reveal what we're feeling. And for a lot of guys, you know, particularly as they age out of kind of the, the youthful college era, it gets harder and harder to make solid male friends. And so this tendency to isolate just goes up. And then men hold more and more inside and, and are shared to reveal it because they think, oh, you know, me, me sharing my grief or my anger, that's going to be a burden to my friends. Right. I don't want to make them feel bad when generally what it does when we don't share is it makes us feel more disconnected and people disconnected from us. And so we're talking about a cultural shift here. And it's one that every man has a part in in terms of not waiting for someone else to go first. You can be a leader of men these days by being the one who sits down with a buddy or a friend or a coworker and goes first and says, hey, you know, oftentimes we talk about X. But, you know, I gotta be totally honest. Here's what's going on in my life and it's, it's kind of hard, you know, I'm feeling challenged about this and, you know, I feel a little sad. What's going on in your life? And what I found is when most men are given the opportunity in a safe container to start to share and reveal, turns out they have a lot to say. Sometimes they've just never been felt safe enough to share it.

Host: Yeah, absolutely. Dive into your personal story and why this work is your passion and your purpose, my friend. I'm wondering if you can share why this is important to you from a personal perspective, my friend.

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. You know, it's sourced in my journey as a, as a, as a man. So I was raised white guy in the Midwest of the us, kind of lower middle class, had most of my basic security needs met, but my family did not have the ability to connect in terms of interiors, emotional connection and frankly, physical connection was not present. We just kind of lived in the same house and my parents just kind of paid the bills and took us places and whatnot. And you know, that in a lot of ways that's a very. I'm lucky to have had that experience because a lot of people have had much worse ones. Mine was just a little bit of neglect. But as I got older and entered my adolescent years, and particularly as I started to have feelings of attraction to the opposite sex, in my case, I found that I had no idea how to talk to them. I would get clammy, I would get nervous, I'd get really uncomfortable in my body and I started to just feel a lot of anxiety throughout my life and a lot of self esteem issues. And that began a journey of me, for me, of like, why do I not feel good? And as I looked into it, it was because I didn't really know how to connect. I knew how to like, be around people, but I did not know how to, how to connect and tell them what was going on inside of me. Then when we couple that with, my dad kind of did the typical American thing where he got a job, he started a small business, and he worked his butt off to get us up to lower middle class running a business. But he worked seven days a week and he would come home so exhausted he would just fall asleep on the couch. So I never really had a healthy masculine presence in my life guiding me, which was part of what caused a lot of my anxiety. And he didn't have any time to create community of his own. He didn't really have friends of any kind. And that caught up with him in his life. And so as I transitioned in my 20s and was doing this consciousness transformational work, I got lucky. I stumbled into my first men's group. And I've done a lot of different, you know, therapies and healing modalities and practices and. And being part of a men's group is the one that changed me the most because it gave me a place to bring my hurt. And it also gave me a place where loving masculine presence held me accountable and helped me, helped guide me towards what I was actually wanting in my life. And through a combination of that, in that support, I felt more comfortable taking risks and trying things which I had not done previous in my life. So coming from a place of a lot of disconnection in my youth, I'm now incredibly inspired to get men more connected because frankly, it totally transformed my life.

Host: Yeah, absolutely. I'm curious to ask you about the concept of sort of celebrating vulnerability and using it as a source of both clarity and a competitive advantage for men. What are your thoughts on how we can turn vulnerability into a superpower?

Jason Lange: Yeah, right. There's. This has been an oncoming wave recently in a lot of great ways, and it is redefining this idea that vulnerability is not weakness. Vulnerability is actually a deep type of courage. And the men I admire the most in my life are. Are deeply vulnerable, courageous men. And what I mean by that is they're willing to take chances on things when they don't know how they're going to end up. Right. So oftentimes, Kevin, a lot of guys come to me and say, you know, I want to be more confident. I want to be more confident in my life. I want to be confident approaching women or confident in my job. And the truth is, what they usually mean by confident is I want to be able to take an action and know it's going to succeed. I don't want to have to feel bad or get rejected or mess it up. I want to be invulnerable. And to me, that's exactly the opposite of what we want. Courage is. I'm scared. I don't know how this is going to play out here, but I'm going to reveal or lead anyway in that. Paradoxically, when we're leading with vulnerability, the experience on the outside, it looks like confidence because this is someone who's just going for what they want, being really honest about their truth, taking chances and risks, and not having to totally control the outcome. And that capacity to be vulnerable serves men so deeply as they bring it online and realize, actually, this is so much stronger than holding it inside, because we're willing to take these risks. We're willing to be courageous. We're willing, in a sense, to get hurt. And that is a power is an incredible thing that men can model to other men. And that is one of the primary ways it gets transmitted from man to man. When a guy sees another man step into his vulnerability, I see this all the time in groups. I lead. Two of the primary ways are, you know, a man reveals some grief or sadness he's holding, maybe actually comes to tears, but he feels really solid and clear and even more present afterwards. And guys are like, wow, I didn't even know that was possible. Or sometimes it's a different kind of vulnerability of a man revealing his anger, his frustration, but doing it in a way that feels totally safe and not aggressive or dangerous. And that willingness to come forward when men actually Experience or witness it. They feel the power and the strength of it. That's like, that was so brave. Now I want to do that. And it actually, in a good way, can kind of become viral between men.

Host: Yeah. Also get your perspective on building thriving relationships and mental health. How do you think social connectiveness and masculinity are interconnected? What are your thoughts then?

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. Well, the challenge for so many men is we're raised. You know, this word gets a lot of flack in our culture right now, but we are raised in kind of a patriarchal culture, which basically just means here's what we call the man box. There's this list of attributes that you're expected to. To check off to be a man. And if you don't check those boxes, you're not considered a man. And so there's this box of behavior we're expected to be in. And some of those basic attributes are don't cry, don't show weakness, don't be vulnerable, don't ask for help, always be tough, work harder, be stoic, hold everything inside. And we get raised in that context. You know, a lot of little boys from a young age taught, you know, get up, you'll be fine. Stop crying. Right. Be tough. Like that's the, that's the thing we want. And then that continues up through adolescence. And boys actually, you know, reinforce that with each other and kind of that locker room age and bullying and making fun of. And then it just continues, you know, they're up and out. And so there's this huge pressure to be this kind of old school man that frankly, while there was a time and place, it may have been a little effective in the world. It's not effective anymore. And the men who still abide by that. I was just reading a research study that was like, yeah, men who kind of go by those tradition, traditional, keep it all inside values, they have much higher rates of suicide. They die earlier. It's not like, oh, this is going to change your life a little bit. Like, it actually puts an enormous amount of pressure on men. And then they have all this stuff going on inside of themselves, these feelings that us men are often not taught what they are, let alone what to do with them. So we bottle them up inside until they get too intense. And then when they get too intense, we reach for a way to get rid of them through alcohol, weed, porn, masturbation, eating, overworking. Men will turn to these things to try to change how they're feeling inside, which then often further isolates them. So Part of the new paradigm we're talking about is men. It's better to be in community life. Doesn't get easier, but it gets way better having connection. Right. There's this famous study they did. I think it was with rats. It might have been mice or rats, but they. They put a. I think maybe. I can't remember. I'm gonna say rat for now, but they put a rat in a cage or no. Yeah, they put a rat in a cage. And, you know, in the little bottles they drink out of, like that they put on the side of the cage, they put morphine in there. And the rat would drink when it was alone, it would drink the morphine until it killed itself, became addicted, and it just kept going. It kept going. But lo and behold, if they drop another rat in the cage, the rattle drink a little bit and then stop. The social connection prevents the depth of addiction. And connection and addiction are often kind of polar opposites. So the more connected we are as men, the healthier we get, or in all capacities in our lives. And so we have to deconstruct these kind of traditional beliefs about masculinity and realize that, yes, a healthy man is a connected man. And just like we go to the gym to work out our bodies and keep them healthy, men also have to connect with other men, go to therapy, get coaching to keep their mind and heart healthy as well.

Host: Yeah, absolutely. And that leads into my next question, what I wanted to ask you about. In terms of positive personal growth and building a capacity to love and be more empathetic as men, what are the things that you there, my friend?

Jason Lange: Yeah. For a lot of guys, we treat ourselves how we were treated as kids. And many of us as kids were raised in a paradigm of shame. Right. If you don't do it right, you're no good. So do better. Right. And that gets in deep with so many men I work with. And one of the most positive shifts that I can just see guys transform in their lives is to move away from shame as a tool for growth. That instead of beating ourselves up when something doesn't go our way or we fall, we don't hit a certain goal. It's to actually be compassionate with ourselves. And just like kids thrive with that compassion, so do us men. So many of us men literally will hurt ourselves, talk to ourselves in ways we would never talk to another human being. But our inner critic, our inner voice is just constantly berating us so often. So the shift away from that towards, hey, I'm a man who's doing the best I can. I get help when I need help. I get support when I need support. And my life is generally trending in a direction of more wholeness and health. And so along the way, I might have some back steps, I might have some side steps, and I don't have to do it perfectly. And when men can hold that in a context of being deeply connecting with other men, their lives change and get way better, in my experience. Yeah.

Host: I'm curious to get your thoughts from this finding from PBS News that reported over last year that 15% of men under the age of 30 have limited to no close friends, my friend. So I'm curious to get your thoughts on that finding and how we can create a better sense of friendship among men between the ages of under sorted, my friend. What are your thoughts then?

Jason Lange: Yeah, this is. It's tough, right, because there's a lot of forces working against men these days culturally, in terms of how everything is moving to be mediated by technology. Now, there's a lot of gifts by technology, right? You and I get to have a conversation like this. We might not otherwise, but for a lot of men, it. Social media in particular creates an illusion of connection, but it's not actually connection, I call it. It's like the equivalent of sugar. It's empty calories. We think we're getting something good, it gives us a little hit. But inside we're deeply malnourished. So so much energy is moving things online. Online dating, online social networks, online chat. And then simultaneously, you know, at least I'm here in the States, I'm not exactly sure where you are, but in the west, in the US we have this kind of crazy perversion for privacy. So we've oriented a large part of the actual geographic layout of our country to be isolated. The whole idea of the suburbs. I live alone, I get in my car, I drive to work alone. I see some people, I. I come back. Now you lay that, lay social media on that, and you put on top of that things like Amazon and Doordash. A man can live without leaving his house. Now, that was not really possible for the majority of human history. You had to interact with other humans. So these, these cultural forces that are really kind of pushing against us. And there's the dissolution of a lot of what we call, you know, third spaces, shared public spaces where you do things with other human beings. A lot of that has gone to the wayside. So a lot of the ways men traditionally bonded have kind of disappeared. And now there's a push to work from Home, which isolates guys even more. So the young guys, I think, are particularly feeling this because they've grown. Grown up in a context of online. Right. I was born in 80, so I'm right on that, like, precipice that I, you know, I grew up before an Internet, and then in high school it came online. But I had a lot of my life was offline, running around, being outside. And that comes with something. A lot of bonding and connection happens for men there. We tend to bond through doing things with our body. And as those opportunities have been removed, a lot of guys have no idea how to meet other men now, how to connect with other men, or some men too, from those young ages. You know, if you're unlucky enough to have had some poor experiences with guys and, you know, junior high or high school, bullying, teasing, whatever, they don't want to go into spaces with a lot of men, so they feel safer online. So, you know, men's groups are just one avenue for, okay, how can we start to create spaces where people can. Men can feel safe to connect. The other thing I'm pretty excited about is there's a burgeoning kind of rite of passage movement coming back online for men that's about how do we help boys transition into adulthood, Something that most cultures around the world have a lot of traditions around. But here in the west, we got nothing. Right. Maybe you're lucky if you have a great father or a sporting coach, but a lot of guys are just left alone to figure out life, whether that's finding out about sex through poetry, porn, or learning about their finances, getting into credit card debt. And so there's this whole movement of one of the best things you can do for young boys is connect them with older, mature men and get them in the same space so they can start to get some guidance. So I'm pretty passionate about, you know, creating these spaces where men of all ages can. Can come and start to connect and make friends.

Host: Yeah, absolutely. And you, you know, Jason, I'll share just a little bit about myself, my friend. You know, I'm a huge believer in self reflection and the power of self reflection. You know, I just did this yesterday because Yesterday was my 36th birthday, my friend. So I'm.

Jason Lange: Yeah, happy birthday.

Host: Thank you. I'm a huge believer in and sort of taking what I call a snapshot picture of where you are and building on that to be better, my friend. So tell me about the power of self reflection for men and the importance of communicating as well, my friend. How do you think communication and self reflection are interconnected.

Jason Lange: That's such a great point. And I think it actually connects back to what we were talking about with clarity. Where, particularly if we join something like a men's group, where it's the same group of guys that we meet with regularly, over time, they get to start to feel and see the patterns and directions of our lives and we get to start to share things with them of like, here's what I want or here's what I'm struggling with and they can track when we're moving or not moving with that in a large part of what I see in group often is men's groups an opportunity for guys to slow down and actually connect to themselves and what's happening in their lives and orient to, oh, here I am and here's where I'm going. But is that even what I want? Because a lot of times so many of us men just get sucked into the busy, busy, do the next thing, do the next thing. And suddenly 10, 15 years go by and we're like, how did I even get here? I didn't take the time to slow down and be still and get oriented. So a good group creates a lot of opportunity to reflect in that way. I mean, one of the most basic and powerful tools in a men's group is the check in. It's just checking in. Here's what's going on in my life. And you know, I do that in my group twice a month. So twice a month I'm taking a moment to self reflect on what has been my experience in the world these last two weeks. Where have I been in pain, what's been hard, what am I celebrating, what I'm, what am I wanting to move towards? And that alone changes our orientation to life because we become more aware of what's actually happening.

Host: Yeah. And Jason, I know that you also lead a biannual shadow work based men's group called the Heart of the Shadow program, my friend. So can you tell me about the program, my friend, and how it works?

Jason Lange: Yeah. So the Heart of Shadow is a program. It's a very specific kind of men's group that I lead with a live retreat that's based on this thing called shadow work. And shadow work is just the process of us getting more connected to ourselves and making visible the invisible. So the things that might be running our behavior that we're not even conscious of. So that's. We call that shadow material. Right. It's like trying to see your own shadow. You're like, what are you talking about? But it's actually driving a lot of our behavior. So shadow work is the process of bringing that forth. And for a lot of men, what that actually is is bringing forth unfelt emotion, things that are in their nervous system. Grief, anger, fear, disgust, you name it. That for whatever reason, it wasn't safe or they didn't have the capacity to feel at different points in their lives. And then it gets stuck in there. And it takes energy. Takes energy to hold things inside. And so shadow work is the process of liberating that in a group of other men. And why that's so transformative is, like I said, one of the primary ways men, men connect is through doing hard things. Right. So there's, there's all this research about, I think it's vasopreferin is the hormone. And when that's present with men, like, we feel bonded. And that used to mean traditionally out in the world, we do hard things. We'd build something, we'd go exploring, we'd go hunting, we'd have challenges that we'd have to unite to get across. That still works in a lot of culture. There's less actual danger in the world, to some sense. So the shift with something like the Heart of Shadow is you can bond deeply with other men by doing the hard work of exploring your interior world, of going to the places inside of you that you've been afraid to confront or come to terms with or feel in. The Heart of Shadow is a program where we take men super deep into and they get to witness each other going into these really vulnerable, powerful places. And in that process, these really deep connections and bonds are formed that are unlike anything else I've experienced. And so it's a way for men to kind of take back control of their lives, liberate a lot of bound energy, and get very connected to a group of men that they can then stay with if they choose, meeting for the rest of their lives.

Host: Yeah. What other programs do you think people should know that you offer that can help to change their perspective and view on the whole concept of men's group buddy? How else are you transforming the world, my friend?

Jason Lange: Yeah. Thank you. The other two ways I primarily work with men is I do do live retreats as well that are not connected to a longer term program. So I do one retreat every Labor Day in Northern California where about 24 men get together and go really deep. We do a lot of physical practices, we do a lot of emotional practices, and we connect deeply with some really beautiful land that Often the combination of the three kind of loosens guys up and breaks them free to just feel more alive. And then the other thing I do is a totally online program called Pillars of Presence. And it's all about how we cultivate a deeper masculine presence in the world to be able to lead both in love relationships and in our, in our purpose, our work in the world as well, that a lot of men confuse. You know, what it is they need to be successful with. You know, I gotta have a certain six pack abs or certain bank account or have a certain high paying job. And the greatest masculine currency actually is this capacity to be deeply present in the moment. So that program is all about how do we cultivate that in our lives?

Host: Yeah, absolutely. Addition, I'm also curious to ask you about succeeding in today's modern marriages. You know, traditional roles of what marriage used to be is rapidly evolving in today's landscape, my friend. So I'm curious, how do you think men can succeed in today's modern marriage?

Host: Yeah, absolutely. Jason, tell me, I'm also wondering your thoughts on the whole idea of sort of embracing men's group as a sort of way of life and a way forward, my friend. Because, you know, I think men's groups are a great way of sort of getting in touch with your mental health and I'm sure that you would agree with that. So I asked you the connection between joining a men's group and improving your mental health, how important do you think that is, my friend?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I say it's super important. And I specifically work with men in men's groups. Right. But the, this could be a co ed group, this could be a woman's group. The idea is a small, you know, usually six to 12 people at most group that meets regularly and cultivates intimacy and truth with each other is what we're talking about here. Because, you know, the way we were just created as humans, we were meant to live in, you know, communities of like 50 to 100 people max in the way the world is now. There's just unlimited amounts of people and strangers around us in a way that can be hard for us to integrate to. So, you know, a men's group's a way to kind of relocalize, even if it's a virtual group over zoom of cultivating intimacy with a few people that we can track and stay connected to in just time and time again. What I've seen is men learn that when they have a place where they can come be their authentic selves, not have to hide and can reveal and are accepted and loved by other men, they relax and their lives get better. The amount of stress goes down, their capacity to handle challenges goes up and they feel more connected. You know, for a lot of men, they have two really central needs in life. Belonging and a sense of purpose. And a men's group can actually provide both because in a smaller group like that, your presence will Impact the other men. What you have to say or think, whether you're there or not, it impacts the lives of the guys you're with. So it creates a type of purpose for men that, yeah, I want to be here to support my brothers and it creates this sense of belonging because we know whatever's going out in the outside world. I have this safe, loving band of brothers here that are going to be with me no matter what. And that frees up so much for men.

Host: Yeah. And I've got three questions left for today. First of those three is this. I want to talk about the concept of resilience and how what's related to men group, my friend. You know, I'll use myself as an example. So, Jason, when I was nine years old, I was told by a doctor that I wouldn't be able to walk for the duration of my life without assistance because of the severity of my disability. One of the reasons I wanted to start this podcast was I wanted to create a better sense of social connection and resilience. My friends, based on my disability, sometimes it's harder for me to make social connection. So I'm curious about your thoughts on the concept of mental resilience, my friend.

Jason Lange: Taxact knows filing taxes can be confusing. So we have live experts on hand who can help answer any questions you may have. Questions like can I claim my SUV is my home office, if I answer work emails in my car, if I adopted 12 dogs that this year can I list them as dependents and am I doing this right or am I doing this very, very wrong? Our experts have the answers to those questions and many others. Tax act.

Host: Let's get them over with how important it is for men's mental health. But what are your thoughts there, my friend?

Jason Lange: Yeah, this is, this is such a good thread. Like I said, community is immunity and connection builds resilience. And so what I've seen is when we have a place where we can go, when we've been knocked down, so to speak, right? When life hasn't gone the way we want or we're in some kind of challenge and there's people there that will hold us in loving presence and attention, we are able to recover recenter and find ourselves and kind of get back up and go into into life because of how much isolation so many men have, they never get that. So stress hits them and they just hold it inside and stress cumulates through throughout life. Right. The more stressed out we are, the more susceptible to stress and challenges we become. So a good group creates resilience because it starts to give us the experience of no matter how hard I'm hit, so to speak, by life, I have a place to go where I can be held and loved and cared for and just seen as a human being. And the moment we get that feedback, our nervous systems relax and we come back to ourselves. And it can create so much power. And, you know, I don't care who a man is. Right. So you have the challenges of your disability. Some men, you know, are born with really fit, healthy bodies. One thing I tell all guys is at some point, no matter what kind of body you were born in, your body's going to start to fail you. It will not be able to do certain things you want to do. You can get injured, you can get hurt, you can age out, you can have challenges like you do, but at some point, you can't just brute force your way through it. Every man is going to have to confront that at some point. And that's where we get to fall back on the level of connectivity we have, the, the community around us. And a men's group is that place. So when I've gone through massive challenges in my life, I've kind of had, you know, so called send out the bat signal of like, I, I can't do this, I'm overwhelmed or I'm hurt or I'm sick. I need help. And those are the men that come and they help me and they help me get through the challenges of life and so I'm able to recover much faster.

Host: Yeah. And Jason, I'm also curious to explore the idea of giving men the permission to stumble in life because, you know. Yeah. Sometimes I think the best lessons we can learn in life are a result of a stumble, my friend. So talk about the permission for men to stumble in life wouldn't.

Jason Lange: So great. Yeah, yeah, so great. Right. Because there is this, because of this kind of cultural thing that mistakes are bad and then we turn that into self shame as men that if I make a mistake or if I fail at something that means I'm a failure or I'm bad. A lot of us men get reticent to take chances and risks. And now when we pair that with. Many men I know were not raised with a present, guiding, masculine role model in their life. And when we don't have that, what I see most men do is they tighten up and become more risk averse because, oh my God, if I fail or I make a mistake, there's nobody looking out for me. Right. And what a men's group can do. And I love that you brought this up because this is. I've done some talks on this is. I call it the father energy we all need. And the greatest gift of the masculine, like the father energy we can give each other is whatever happens, let's figure it out together. Okay, you lost that game. That's okay, man. I'm sure that hurts. Let's look at how you played. Like, we'll figure it out. We'll make a plan. We'll see where you can practice. Oh, your business failed. That's okay. Let's look at it. Look at it. Let's figure it out together. Oh, you don't know how to do that thing. That's okay. Just ask me questions. I'll teach you. We'll figure it out together. And when men start to feel that support behind them, that's like, oh, I don't have to do it all perfect. And if I mess up, there's people that are going to help me, that are going to guide me, that are going to teach me. We become much less risk averse, and we take bigger chances and we're not afraid to mess up, so to speak, right? To stumble because we know we can come back to ourselves and that we actually have community and brotherhood around us. And that tends to feed itself. And we start to take bigger risks, bigger chances. And they don't all land, but some of them do. And along with that, the other thing I see with a lot of men is most men long term would rather have a lot of stumbles that they tried that didn't work out than what haunts so many men, which is, I never went for it. I never took my shot. I never tried. I never talked to that person on the elevator. I never asked for the raise. And then they have to live with the rest of their lives with that regret in their hearts. And that hurts way more than the actual stumble ever does.

Host: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I'm gonna end by asking you about your wife, Violet, my friend, and your team kids, because I know your wife. Wife leads women's groups to get in touch. To get in touch with women as well, my friend. And yeah, I'm curious to ask you about that. But I'm also curious to ask you about your life and your legacy, my friend, and how you want that to.

Jason Lange: Be your f. Yeah, well, a big part of my legacy, I think, is. Is my family. And a big reason I suggest men get into this kind of work is we can be more present fathers and more present husbands and more present lovers. And I'm of the. Having worked with a lot of men and seen my own experience, I think one of the biggest leverage points we can make in the world is how are we raising our kids? Because I work with guys, include myself in this. You know, we don't get certain things. We're abused in certain ways, we're neglected in certain ways when we're a kid, and we have to spend the rest of our lives trying to heal that these early, early hurts. And so one of the biggest leverage points, I think, is create healthy relationships, whether the hetero or not. And healthy relationships become the basis for healthy families and raising healthy children. And that ripples out really fast. So what I tell guys is all the consciousness work, all the transformational work, none of it matters if it's not showing up in your relationships, if you're not showing up more present, more connected, more whole in the relationships in your life. So that would be, you know, certainly one of my legacies is one of the most powerful ways we can do that, guys, is get connected to each other as men and join a men's group.

Host: Absolutely. And final injection. Tell me, what's the best way that people can get connected with you if they're so inclined to do that, my friend?

Jason Lange: Yeah, the best way to keep up with me and everything I do is at Evolutionary Men. So it's not dot com, it's actually dot Men, but at Evolutionary Men, you can see an overview of my programs, my retreats. You can contact me, ask me any questions. I have my own podcast with hours and hours of this kind of stuff. If it's intriguing to you and, you know, whether you work with me or not, I can point you towards the kind of support you probably need in your life or your local community.

Host: Well, fabulous, my friend. I think you're doing great work in the field of men's mental health and building connection and belonging, my friend. And I want to thank you for the privilege of your time and for engaging in conversation with me this afternoon. Most appreciated, my friend.

Jason Lange: Oh, my pleasure, Kevin. Thanks for asking such amazing questions. You were really prepared. It was super cool. It's tax season, and at LifeLock, we know you're tired of numbers, but here's a big one you need to hear.

Host: Billions. That's the amount of money in refunds the IRS has flagged for possible identity fraud.

Jason Lange: Now, here's another big number. 100 million. That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it, guaranteed.

Host: One last big number.