Episode #395 – Redefining What It Means to Be a Man | Shut Up And GRIND with Robert B. Foster

Robert B. Foster: I started doing workshops and doing groups where I'm getting up in front in front of others, like outside of the gym setting and talking about resilience and perseverance and goal setting and vision and taking action. You should know what one hour of your time is worth. You should know the value that you bring to the marketplace. You know, what you're passionate, Starts with clarity of vision. If you don't have the clarity of vision, whatever next thing you get, you're not going to see it through because you don't have the clarity of vision. So the point of my pain was being told, you will never run or jump again, and all that stuff. I was like, you know what? Like, I want to be able to take this even bigger. You know why you do what you do? You have to know how to charge for what you do. That's how you're gonna change your life, and that's how you're gonna leave a legacy for your children and your family. You gotta know you want. Happy Tuesday, ladies and gentlemen. This is Rob, and I'm back with episode number 395 of Shut Up 8 and Grind. We're all about overcoming obstacles, defying the odds, and inspiring you to clear whatever's blocking the path to the success that you want in this lifetime. So if you're brand new, I bring guests on from all over the world. I've had guests from six of the seven continents. And it's about overcoming. So whatever you feel like you're stuck in there is a way through. And my guest today, we're going to be talking about advocating for men, you know, because we see all the spaces out there for women, and then with men, if men have their own space, somehow that's a bad thing. So we're going to dive into that topic. But first, I want you to stop talking yourself out of the thing that you really want to do. Like, I created an e book probably six months ago, and it just sat on my hard drive and just sat there and sat there and sat there. And now I'm in the motivational space, but I'm just as human as everybody else. So I was listening to a video the other day, and the guy was like, are you that person that creates stuff and never executes? And he, like, spoke right to my soul. And I'm happy to announce that as of tomorrow, that ebook will be live on Amazon. And I just simply put it off. And are you guilty of that, too? Those of you listening to this, do you have something that you really, really want to do? And you just keep procrastinating, or you think you don't have time or you can't invest the money. Just get it done. Just do it. Like, I could have done this six months ago and been helping people prioritize themselves, because that's the name of the. Of the ebook, Prioritize you. It's geared towards moms. The lot of moms think, ironically, we're talking about men today, but it's geared towards moms because they think once they become a mom, that their life doesn't matter anymore. And this. This ebook is about helping you prioritize yourself without the guilt. All right, so let's get to today's topic and helping me have this discussion. We'll be bringing on Jason Lange. Many men are struggling right now as the old paradigms of what a man is supposed to be are no longer relevant or even appropriate. Men's work is where we discover healthier ways to be in the world and where we as men can shed the old lone wolf way of being. So, Jason, welcome to the show. How we doing?

Jason Lange: Doing awesome. Thanks for having me, Robert.

Robert B. Foster: All right, where you joining me from?

Jason Lange: I'm in Colorado, kind of on the Front Range.

Robert B. Foster: Okay. Okay. I've been to Colorado once in 2017. I expect it to be freezing cold, snow everywhere, because that's what they show us, right? That's what they show. It was in the 80s, all four days. And this was in March of 2017. It was beautiful. Are you from there?

Jason Lange: No, I grew up outside Chicago, lived in California for a long time, bounced around a bit, and landed here a couple years ago.

Robert B. Foster: Okay. All right, so let's find out a little bit more about you. So how would you. You describe yourself? You strip away all the hats. Who is Jason?

Jason Lange: Sure, I'm curious. Present, playful and deeply caring person who, you know, really wants everyone to thrive, I would say, and that all my life has kind of lined up in particular to help get people connected, connected to themselves, connected to each other, connected to the planet. And pretty much everything I do is kind of downstream of that, whether it's very personal and in my family, very out there in the world with the work I do. Yeah, those are the things I'm really passionate about.

Robert B. Foster: So where does that curiosity stem from?

Jason Lange: Yeah, man, I think it's just been part of my disposition as a kid. You know, I would say I always had a fascination with how the world works and how things play out. You know, awe is one of my favorite emotions. Feeling that, like, whoa, that's mind blowing. When it comes to anything. Right. And so that's just stayed with me through the years and particularly in my journey of growth and development. Just, you know, if there is a state that could be considered one of the higher order ones, I would say awe and curiosity are it. If you're in awe, if you're feeling curious, your nervous system's doing good in that moment.

Robert B. Foster: Yeah, See, and I want to stay on that. On that. I'm just trying to switch something here. I can't multitask. There we go. Okay. Yeah. So I want to stick with that curious theme because I think as we get into adulthood that a lot of that curiosity starts to go away. Like with me, I'm a visionary. I'm constantly thinking, what if? Like, well, what if this, what if this? Like all the positive what ifs, you know, because I know there's negative what ifs also, like, we'll take investing as an example. People will say, well, what if I lose it all? Well, what if you triple it? And I was like, so. So I have that curiosity too. Like, I'm not afraid to take chances, but so many people are. So with you being a curious person, what do you say to that person that wants to change, but they're afraid to change?

Jason Lange: Yeah. Just that the alternative is even more painful. Right. And what I mean by that is life doesn't live itself. And you know, in a lot of ways, I talk about this in men's work and the work I do in the world. You know, good men's work, which is really just good human work, but it's about preparing us. So when we take our last breath, can we do that in a way, can we have lived our life already in a way that that left last breath is, is quite relaxed? There's no contraction. There's no I should have or I wish or da da, da. But wow, I played full out, right. I left it all on the court. That is an incredibly free place for us men to be. And usually all that gets in the way of that is fear and sometimes lack of training and support. And that's where a lot of the work I do comes in and tries to handle getting guys supported, giving them a little bit of training. And turns out this is a huge paradox for a lot of men. When our nervous systems feel safe, it's much easier to take big risks. Right. Because we're not afraid of what happens after. It's like, oh, I got something to come back to. I know how to come back to myself. So we can live a lot more Boldly, the more support we have around us in that way.

Robert B. Foster: Yes. So I wanted to start there on purpose because I know what's, what's being done to men through social media, through the actual media, through politics and the politicians. Like, I hear all the noise. But you go back to the who am I at my core? That's why I ask every guest. That's the very first question I ask every single guest. Who are you at your core? And with me, I'm a competitor. So anytime any type of challenge enters my world, that's the way I tackle it. Like right now, I'm only two months removed from a knee replacement surgery. I'm already playing basketball, I'm already starting to run a little. I have a race scheduled the end of May, and people were like, isn't that like a one year rehab? I'm like, nobody's gonna tell me how fast I heal. Like, I'm gonna prepare my mind and my mind's going to prepare my body, and we're going to get through this. Right. And I only share that because as men are dealing with these struggles, they have that power. If they just tap into who they are at their core. You can overcome every stereotype, every stigma out there. What are your thoughts on that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, that's a superpower in terms of us. You know, I think that's a state a lot of men are yearning for, which is, oh, this is actually how I define power, Right? It's the ability to move towards what we want.

Robert B. Foster: That's it.

Jason Lange: Right. So when I'm in my power, I'm able to take action. I'm able to be in my agency and move towards the outcomes I want in life, even if obstacles, you know, come in the way. And again, what tends to get in the in the way of that is often just fear in terms of, oh, my God, what'll happen? What if I push too hard? What if I do this or that? And why getting men connected again is so important is it creates that safety so we can take these big risks. And so, you know, a lot of ways, a lot of the work I do with men again is just the energetic shift from life is something that happens to me to I happen to my life. Right? I want to happen to my life. I want to set a direction and move toward it. And a lot of men are feeling lost these days in terms of how to do that as the world around them has shifted so much. And even our expectations of what we're supposed to do as men has shifted. And in particular, one of the, you know, things I see get a lot of men into trouble is from a young age, you know, we're basically taught to be dissociated and live in our heads. And when we get stuck in our heads just ruminating and thinking, it becomes really hard to chart a path, right? The fear gets in the way, et cetera. And oftentimes that deep knowing, that urge to move, to create, to take action, that happens in our body. And men are incredibly intuitive when they're actually connected to their bodies. So a huge part of the work I do with men is, hey, let's get out of our heads. Get into your body. That's where your desire lives. That's where your intuition lives. That's where your boundaries live. That's where your yes to life lives. Yes, I want it to be this. Let me go figure that out.

Robert B. Foster: See, and that's the key sentence. Figure that out. And I over. I heard this analogy from another video before. What happens with a lot of people is, as I said earlier, they attach their identity to their career. It's like, yes, I. I have a podcast, but. But I'm like, I'm a podcaster. No, I have a podcast, right? It's like, my podcast isn't who I am. You know, like, the people that know me understand. So Kobe and Shaq, right? People always say, well, if I had Shaq, I could have won rings, too. I think Tracy McGravy just recently said that Kobe said, watch what I do without Shaq. That's the mentality. And a lot of men have lost that drive. Like, I've witnessed it from firsthand, just being out and about. A lot of men just feel so disconnected, and it's like, there's nothing wrong with being masculine. Listen, Twitter is not a real place, okay? Twitter is not a real place. You don't have to take to heart everything that you see on social media, because let me tell you, they can deny it all they want to, but the average woman wants to be associated with a strong man. Okay? Again, regardless of what you see in social media, they want that they will naturally fall into their feminine. When you step into. To your masculine. Yeah.

Robert B. Foster: Yeah, agreed. So when it comes to. To masculinity is like, yes, there are some people who take it too far. You know, they definitely do. They take it too far. They're out there. But again, that's where you look inward. It's like, people shouldn't be trying to emulate Andrew Tate. Like, Andrew Tate is Andrew Tate. You know, it's like, you don't wanna. You don't want to emulate somebody else. Just who are you? Who are you? Like, if you're a man and if you're more on the empathetic side, be. You don't try to course correct and try to act like an energy, like, that's not gonna work for you, because now you're in an internal battle with. With your own core beliefs. But, like, someone like me, I am very competitive, right? I'm everything that. I mean, my show is called Shut up and Grind. Like, but that's me, right? That's me. So somebody who needs a more empathetic approach. I'm not your guy. You know, I think a lot of men have to realize you're not gonna please everyone. Not everyone is going to like you. There are people who love me. There are people who will probably never talk to me again. That's just unfortunate. That's how the world works, you know? And so accepting that is. Is key because it didn't hit me Till I was 38. I'm 51 now, but when I was 38, I was like, you know what? I'm gonna stop catering to everybody, because that's what I found myself doing. And I ended up losing myself. So once I started just zeroing, all right, what is my purpose? Why am I here? And then now I just lean into that. So everything that I do, like, you can't see with the background, but I'm sitting in a gym right now, so I have my gym clients. I have to show up for them. I have my podcast audience and guests. I have to show up for them. I. I speak on other podcasts, I have to show up for their audience. And I coach track and field. I have to show up for the athletes. So literally everything in my life requires me to show up and be of service to other people. So how did you get on your path to advocating for men?

Jason Lange: Sure, yeah. My journey started, you know, in my own pain, as is often the case for a lot of men. And often our deepest purpose comes from our deepest pain. So, you know, I was raised kind of lower middle class outside Chicago, and basically had all my basic security needs met. You know, we had stable housing, we had stable food. But as I aged and particularly got into my teenage years, what became incredibly obvious to me was my family didn't know how to do connection, physical or emotional connection. We were just bodies living in the same house. So as I got out into the world, as I started to get Interested in relationships. I didn't know, I did not know how to connect with men or women. And, and it was so painful for me. It kind of kicked off a journey for me that got me into men's work, got me into somatic therapy, got me learning about the nervous system and how things work. And lo and behold, my journey of feeling alone in the world as a man, not the only one. And so it's a journey. I know what it feels like to be disconnected. So my great passion in a lot of ways is to connect men, get them connected to each other, like I said, to themselves, to the world. And getting into my first men's group when I was 26 years old, more than anything else I've done right? I've done the therapies, I've done the coaching, I've done plant medicines, I've done all the things. Getting into a regular, consistent group with men who had my back when things were hard and frankly called me on my bullshit when I wasn't showing up changed my life more than anything else. And that realization that, oh, okay, we like to think we can do it all alone as men, but we can. And this is one of the big shifts we're being called into in our culture right now is men need support, right? We need help. That's it. Doesn't make us weak, doesn't make us less strong. And I get pushed back from so called tough guys sometimes and I got to look them in the eye and say to them, you know, I don't care how tough you think you are, there's going to be a moment in your life where your body will fail you, right? Could be sickness, accident or the thing that comes for us all, old age. And you're not going to be able to just brute force your way through. And in that moment you're going to find out what kind of relationships do I actually have around me to support me. And a lot of guys wait till it's too late so there's an emergency that suddenly they have to find that support while they're in the thick of it. And what I advocate for is don't wait, start investing in those relationships now. Because then when the stuff really hits you in life, you got shock absorbers around you to support you getting back on your feet or finding a new way forward. So it was really out of my own pain and discovering I need help and I need to get connected to other men. And then learning when I did that, guess what, took more risks. I got bolder in life, took on bigger challenges. And I was able to find my center again much faster anytime I got knocked off it.

Robert B. Foster: So I want to talk about something you mentioned, and then I have a question for you. So you said most men can't do it alone, right? I just want to expand on that. I totally agree with you. I just want to expand on it. We're not meant to. That's what. That's what we have to get out of our men and women, this whole I'm independent thing. No, you're not. You're not hunting for your own food, right? You're not doing your own banking, right? You have a banker. You need the people at the gas station. Anywhere you go, you need the help of other people. So stop trying to flex and saying that you're independent. No, you're not. No, you're not. We are social beings. We are meant to work together. I remember just recently, I was at a supermarket, and this woman's trying to climb up the shelf to reach something on. On the top shelf. And so I come walking by, I reach over, I grab it for her, and she's like, I think I could have got it. Could have just said, you're welcome. I just made your life easier for you. You know, could it just. And you're welcome. But, like, help. People are so quick to refuse help until they reach that point that you mentioned to where they need help. But now, because you condition yourself that you're so independent and you're so strong, you're afraid to ask for help. Especially men, you're afraid to ask for help. And then that builds and builds. Like. I don't know. I'm sorry, I'm older than you. I don't know how much older than you I am, but I don't know if you remember when Robin Williams passed, when he took. Took his life. No, nobody saw that coming. I mean, of course, we only know him as an actor. Like, we're not in his inner circle, but just even in his interviews. And that nobody saw that coming. And then he ends up taking his own life. And it's because as men, we're conditioned. We don't cry. And my. My retort, why do we have tear ducts then, right, if we're not supposed to cry? Whoever created us said that we need peer to us. So vulnerability. Well, the question I have for you, Let me lead into it. Vulnerability is one of the strongest things that you. That you can be. To get up on the stage in front of people, in front of a room of people, and just let Your emotions flow, Right. No one's ever been in a crowd. Like, what happens if you're on stage? You start crying. How does the crowd usually react?

Jason Lange: Yeah, people love it, right.

Robert B. Foster: They applaud, like, you can do it. You can do it. Right? Nobody's like, what a punk. Nobody responds like that. So when it comes to strength, like, what is your definition of strength? Like, what does that mean to you?

Jason Lange: Yeah, strength. Strength is the place in between posture and collapse.

Robert B. Foster: Yes. Good answer. I like that.

Jason Lange: Strength is, hey, I can be impacted by life, but I'm not rigid, pretending like it's not there. But I'm also not collapsed by it. Right. I can hold my grief. Yeah. I'm sad right now.

Robert B. Foster: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And my body grieves and I handle it, and I let it move through me. I don't have to tense up to try to keep it down or drink it away or it away or all the different things men do. And I also. So don't become totally collapsed into it, where I can't do anything right. Strength is that amazing place in between, which really just means I have the ability to respond to the moment. Right. It's that shift from being reactive to responsive. So I'm strong in life, when something happens to me and I have the capacity to respond to it, that's it. And turns out that can be a lot easier when we get more connected to other people, when we learn to ask for help, when we stop being so stoic and realize that, yeah, you know, we're all. We're all connected, and we all do need help. And frankly, here's the real thing. It's more efficient. Guys don't want to realize this, but how many times, you know, I've still fallen prey to this, something I'm struggling with. That's hard. I got to figure it out myself. I can't tell anyone. Da, da, da. I could spend days, weeks, months, trying to figure something out. Finally, I ask for help from the right person. They're like, oh, you just do this takes five minutes. Like, well, I wasted all that time, right? If I could just ask for help. And someone taught me. Right. It's the beauty of coaching, whether it's in kind of the physiological realm like you, or more the mental realm like me. People can help us see what we can't see so we can figure it out faster. And turns out it's much easier and frankly, more fun to push ourselves when we're in relationship. Right. It's the difference between showing up to the gym alone and you show up with a buddy. And you know what? When people show up with a buddy or a trainer, they work out a little harder. There's a little bit more gas in the tank. Right. That's what we get from connection and community in all areas of our life, not just in those areas. So having that kind of support, it really helps us thrive in all the ways I've been talking about.

Robert B. Foster: Yeah. I have a story that can illustrate that. So this woman I was seeing a few years ago, so I'm six one. She's like five two. It's a little. Little height difference there. She was dealing with some back soreness, and I went to her house to help her clear her gutters. And so she. She's one of the ones that are, like, super independent. I got to do everything myself. So she's like, here, you just hold the ladder. I was like, why don't I get on the ladder? It's like, is this your back? She's like, I can do it. She's like, just hold the ladder. Okay. Right. So she's goes up on the ladder, and with every reach into the gutter, she's, like, wincing in pain. So not only am I a foot taller than you, my back is not hurting. I was like, just let me. So I finally convinced her to switch. So we switched. And because my reach is, like, a foot and a half longer than hers, we were able to zip right through the job. And so when I come back down again, instead of just saying thank you, it was just more mad that she couldn't do it herself. Yeah. You know, the mentality that. That we're dealing with on both sides, because I. And now I'm starting to see more and more videos of women needing help, and the men are afraid to go help because. Especially in a gym setting because all cameras are out and all this other stuff. Oh, look at this creep trying to. You know. So men are like. Like, they're really. They don't know what to do nowadays. Your thoughts?

Jason Lange: Yeah. Well, this goes both ways. Right. I would say for men and women, in that there's a lot of vulnerability and asking for help and allowing help in.

Robert B. Foster: Yes, right.

Jason Lange: Like that. Usually when we let help in, what that does that a lot of people are uncomfortable with is it connects us to our hearts and our bodies, and we have to feel. So for her to say, hey, I actually need your help, my back hurts. She actually has to really feel that in a deeper way that, oh, my God, something's happening in my life, and it's really Uncomfortable. And I don't know how to do this on my own. So, oh, my God, I kind of need some help. And we are just, right. We live in a hyper individualistic culture here in the States, in the West. Right. I mean, for men in particular, right? What's the kind of mythos is, oh, my God, the rugged lone cowboy doesn't need anyone. Tough as nails, can survives whatever it takes. And the truth is, most of those guys died at the bottom of a bottle. That's it. Right. They just. They would drink and numb away the pain. And so this capacity to ask for help and provide help, it's a big shift. And you know, back in the day, sometimes some of these arrangements would be because that was the role and what you were expected. Part of what's so uncomfortable these days is it's like, you know, maybe it's a woman you're trying to help, and it's like, yeah, I know you could do it, but I'm doing it for you because I want to be generous. And I could see this is an easy way for me to serve. Make your life a little easier. And I don't need anything back. Right. That's a challenge for a lot of women, is that, hey, if a man's helping me, he wants something from me. For a lot of women, that's deeply programmed, and there are men who run on that, right. A give to get. I give things to you because I want to get something back. And until a woman, you know, honestly, even a man has experienced genuine generosity, it can take a little while for their nervous systems to catch up. Like, what's the hook? Right? Wait, what? Do something nice to me. What's the hook? When's the other shoe going to drop? And, you know, that's one of the ways we can lead in culture, is just saying, hey, there's no expectations. I just want to do this because I can. I want to be of service. And men in particular, they want to be of service. We don't feel complete if we're not giving to our community, to our culture, to our planet in some capacity. Because otherwise it's likely, like you said, why am I here? And that's painful for guys.

Robert B. Foster: Yep. I just want to make notice that we've been speaking for 30 minutes now now about the struggles of men, and not once did we say a negative thing about women. Right? Just, just want to say, because sometimes when it goes the other direction, that's not the case. You know, you'll spend half of a woman's empowerment thing Just crapping on men. And that's not what it's about. You know, it's about looking inward and just being yourself. Like, there were times where. Where I'll open the door for a woman, like, she'll go through, and she. She won't say, thank you. That's okay. I know I did the right thing. Like, I don't try to be like, you're welcome. Now that you're starting to turn into that toxic person. Just know that you did the right thing and go on. That's like how people get so, so mad when somebody cuts them off. It's like, is it really that big a deal? They. They influence. They inconvenience your life for two seconds, and you just gave over control of your emotions. Like, what you were saying earlier about anger. We have to understand that we can control that. Because Rob at 51 is not like, Rob at 25. Hey, Rob at 25, he was a dick. You know, for lack of a better term, terms. But there was just one day I realized, like, I don't have to react like this. I'm like, again, going back to, who are you at your core? Like, I like to have fun. I'm a daydreamer. I'm a competitor. I'm an athlete. Like, why am I giving these people control of who I actually am? So now if I'm driving, if somebody, you know, pulls out, I just let them. I don't even acknowledge them. It's just, okay, cool. That happened. You know, if I'm in an argument with. With someone, and if it starts to escalate, I walk away. It was like. Like, I don't have to fight. I don't have to fight. Like, when things calm down, we can resume the conversation. But people come unglued so fast. Like, for example, I was watching. I got sucked in for 35 minutes the other day watching this video compilation of restaurant fights. And some of these. Some of these things were out of control. I'm like, what the hell was said to make all of this happen? You know? So when it comes to emotional control, emotional intelligence, what do those things mean to you?

Jason Lange: Yeah, emotional intelligence is the capacity to consciously respond and not unconsciously react. So, hey, this is an experience inside me, but I'm not fused with it. And this is a challenge for, you know, a lot of men. The most dangerous man is the man who isn't aware he's angry. Are you mad? No. Those are the men that women are going to get away from as fast as possible. Because if he's not aware of what he's feeling in his body, and I'm more aware of him. I don't feel safe. I can't trust this man. And so our capacity to be aware of what's happening inside of us and name it, actually shows we're functioning at a higher order, right? We have more awareness in our system. And it's so important because, you know, this is a word a lot of guys don't want to feel. I got this. You know, I'm a parent, so I did a lot of research when I was raising my kids early on. Entitlement, right? A lot of guys are entitled. All entitlement means is you're uncomfortable and unable to be present with the feeling in your body, right? So if I'm standing in line and the person behind me is mad because the ticket person, they're entitled. What they're feeling entitled to is, I don't want to have to feel this way right now. I shouldn't have to feel this way right now. Turns out, entitlement, it's not very powerful. It sure shit isn't very sexy. So as men, when we can learn to get present with our emotional experience and what's inside of us and actually be able to be with it. Hey, I'm feeling uncomfortable right now. What's one of the greatest capacities men have trained in since the beginning of time? The ability to stay present even when it's uncomfortable. That's it. Hey, my shoulders are burning right now from exercising or running or I'm in the middle of this fight with the person I love the most right now, and every part of me wants to eject and get out of here. No, I can stay present. It's really uncomfortable right now. I can even say that to my partner, right? This is really uncomfortable right now. I'm mad and you're mad, and this doesn't feel good. You can start to do that. You start to do that stuff, particularly as a man. You are 99% ahead of the curve of other men. And so much becomes available to you and people will trust you more. And guess what? The more people trust you as a man, the more money you make, the better your relationships get, the deeper your connections get. It's the pathway to so many things.

Robert B. Foster: One of the most powerful things out there is silence. And people think that if they're silent that that's weak. No, it's. No, it's not. And again, I'll give you an example. I had an issue. I was renting space at a gym this is back in 2013, 2014.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Robert B. Foster: This guy, this. This was over a football. So, like, there was a class going on, and my class was waiting to come up. So a couple. Now, the gym was big. It was like 6,000 square feet, so there's plenty of space. So we were on the other side of the gym passing the football around, you know, so the. The owner of the gym was like, oh, some of the. Some of the people in class were complaining about us. Okay. You know, so cool. So a couple days later, we're out in the parking lot now. And he, like, pitched a fit about this, right? I was like, you said, don't throw it in the gym. Like, we're in the parking lot. So he actually waited. Like, I just walked away from. He actually waited till my class was over. And then he's like, gets up in my face about. About it. And I just thought that. Hands in my pockets. And he's in my face, he's yelling. He's like trying to fight me. He's like, Square. I had 27 people in my class. All of them stayed. So, like, they all had. Had my back. But still. But I was just like, I'm leaving and he's yelling, he's calling me names, all this other stuff. I'm like. Because he was blocking my way to my car. And I was like, I'm going home. I'm like, I'm going home. And I just, just left. Just stayed because he was trying to get me to come unglued. And going back to real strength isn't me puffing up my chest and fighting with him, right? So at the end of that, he looked like the fool. He sitting here foaming at the mouth, and he's like, hit me. Hit me. Like, he looked like, deranged. And I just sat there like, I'm going home. Calm, collected. And all of my clients like, how did you keep your cool? I said, because I was not giving him control over my emotions. That's what people have to understand. When you can just stand there stoic in silence, that's like the ultimate strength. What do you think?

Jason Lange: Yeah. A lot of men confuse the capacity to escalate with power. When real power is the ability to de. Escalate, to bring me bring things down towards safety. The most powerful and often lethal men I know are men that understand it's the ability to create safety. That's what is the main capacity we want to develop as mental. You can get all the martial training in the world and why we do that. So we can create safety. I will go through you to create safety for myself and my loved ones if I need to. Not to escalate, to actually de. Escalate. You left me with no other choice. This is how I create safety. And that simple shift. You know that. You know, one of the. Yeah. One of the main powers we can cultivate as men is how do we create safety in the world, in people's bodies and their relationships, in the environment, et cetera. And guess what? Like you just said, you can't do that if you can't even handle your own emotions. And you're just reactive all the time, because, frankly, that guy is also much easier to manipulate in life. Right? I'll poke him, drop a few things, say it, get them all reactive. And then I have control in a lot of ways.

Robert B. Foster: So true. And that word is also important. It's control. Because again, it's stronger to give up control sometimes. Sometimes because a lot of people come unglued, trying to show how tough they are, and all of a sudden, no, you can just step back, right? Just step back. Like, okay, all right, you got this. And then if and when they thought they fall on. On their face, you come back in and you reclaim your position. It's like, it doesn't always have to end in a confrontation, you know, it just. It just doesn't. And I want to talk about people advocating for themselves, too, because, again, just a quick, quick example. I remember years ago, like, myself and a woman, we were. We were both assistant managers in a restaurant. So now, granted, she was there longer than I was, but as far as an overall worker, I. I was better than Sheilas. So it came review. Review time, and it was only $5, but still, she got $5 more a month than me in. In. In the race. And I went right into my. To my boss's office. I was like, excuse me. It's like, what is. What is going on here? This is why you never talk about salary. What's going on here? And he's like, oh, well, she's been with me. I said, stop right there. I don't care how long she's been with you. I was like, mother's Day. Mother's Day morning, in the middle of the rush, you want me or her? And he. He was like, all right. He's like, look, let me talk to the. To the area director, and we'll. We'll bump you up. But a lot of men, they just take it on the chin. You know, it's like they can get. They can flex their muscles with. With road rage. And they can flex their muscles yelling on the phone or Twitter. Twitter fingers. But when it comes time to advocate for themselves, a lot of them don't know how to do that. So what are some of your best practices for men to advocate for themselves?

Jason Lange: Yeah, you know, it's getting again, tie it right back to where we just were, getting comfortable with discomfort. So why men won't advocate for themselves is because, well, if I do and it doesn't go right, there's gonna have to be something I feel, oh, I'm gonna feel angry, I'm gonna feel shame. I'm gonna have to feel not enough. I'm gonna have to feel whatever. And so the fear of the feeling is actually driving their action. And so the more competent, the more emotional IQ or EQ you develop, and the more comfortable you get feeling intense things, feeling rejection, feeling a no, guess what? It doesn't control you anymore. And it's much easier to go say, hey, there's no harm in me asking, what's the worst that's going to happen? Oh, my boss will say no, and then I'll feel a little sour. And then I have to decide, do I want to keep working here or not? And then I have to deal with, oh, what would it be like to leave this job and find another job? You build up all the resilience to that. Much easier to go for the things you want in real life. Realize you are not going to die getting rejected.

Robert B. Foster: Right.

Jason Lange: A lot of men, rejection feels like death. And so you can actually practice getting more comfortable with that feeling of, oh, I'm still alive, didn't get what I wanted, but I'm still alive. But it certainly feels better. Most men I work with to advocate or go for what we want, and then it doesn't work out, it doesn't fail, we're not met in it or whatever than to never do it. The most pain I see men in is later in life. And it's that regret in. It's not that I failed. It's not that I got rejected. It's. I never even tried. So I don't even know had I talked to the woman in the elevator, could we have become a thing? Could I have gotten this job opportunity? I don't know, because I never asked. And that is a really brutal kind of pain for men. So again, it kind of comes back to, how can we start living now so we feel free at the end. One of the ways we do that, we take the risks, we live bold we advocate for ourselves and we try in trying, we realize, oh, if it doesn't work out, doesn't mean I'm a failure. It just means there's something for me to learn here about the situation, the environment, my skill, capacity, whatever that might be. And men who can make that mindset shift, turns out take a lot more chances, get a lot more of what they want.

Robert B. Foster: Yeah, and I want to get your thoughts on success because we see it time and time again. There are people, they have the house, they have the car, they have the wife, they have the kids, they vacation every year, they have all the things, but they're still empty inside. Right. For a lot of people. And what do you see in your travels? Where is that emptiness stemming from?

Jason Lange: I call it. This is one of the great myths I think men in particular fall for, which is once I X, then I'll finally feel why, once I lose this much weight, once I get this girl, once I make this much money, once, once I get the car, whatever it is, once I da da da, then I'll finally be happy and then I'll get to feel the things I've always wanted to feel. And it turns out it just does not work that way because you can find a whole list of people who got the thing and then still feel empty inside. So the thing often doesn't get us the reward and the happiness we need. And where a lot of men go awry is they never slow down to actually ask themselves, what do I want to feel in my life? How do I want to feel? So many men in particular get caught on the achievement rat race. Oh my God, I got to make more money, I got to get the job, I got to get the thing I got. Get so many viewers, whatever. And they never stop to ask themselves, well, once I get all that, how do I hope to feel? Because oftentimes you go down that trajectory. Guess what? You don't have time to do the things you want or to feel or live the life you want. So I work pretty deep with men of you got to reverse engineer your life. How do you want to feel and live your day? What is the lifestyle you want to live? Everything comes downstream to that. Doesn't matter if you get the job in the big house, but you want to be a good dad. Okay, great. If you're working 80 hours a week and traveling, you can't be a great dad. You can try, but you're just not going to be present in the way your kids want. So you've got to get really Clear, what's the thing you actually want? And then, okay, maybe I take this job, I don't make as much money. Maybe our house is a little smaller. But, man, I get every weekend free to do whatever I want with my kids. And I can take a month off in the middle of summer, whatever that might be. So the emptiness often comes from not really knowing what we want to experience or feel. And most of the time, you can follow this again all the way to the end. They do plenty of research. Terminally ill people, people in the last days of their lives, they never are talking about, oh, I wish I had made more money or tried this thing or did it in the same way. Generally, what they're saying is, I wish I had loved and allowed myself to be loved more by the relationships I care about the most. Wish I had spent more time with my wife or my kid or my father or whatever that might be. So, you know, success in my mind is actually setting yourself up to experience relationships and the life you really want to live.

Robert B. Foster: Love it. Yeah. So you mentioned reverse engineering. I do that here. Even in the gym, like when I'm sitting down, having a consultation with someone, it's like, all right, you know, why are you here? I want to lose lose weight. How much weight? I want to lose £20. All right, why. Why that number? Right. Well, I want to lose 20 pounds because that'll get me back into my. The smaller fans. And how would that make you feel? You know, and not even talking about the gym. Right. Or just talk about them. Like, what do you want to do? Why do you want to do it? How would that make you feel? How would that. How would that make your significant other feel? How would that make your kids feel? And your co workers, Then you just start making it bigger than. About them just getting into. Back into that dress, you know, you make it. It becomes a purpose now instead of just something arbitrary. I want to lose £20 so I look. Look better in my clothes. Yeah. It's like, yes, people want to feel what they want, want to feel, but I try to help them make it bigger. Like, how can your co workers benefit by you losing £20? So now you're helping other people get healthier, too, and change their lives, too. And just like with you going in, into these men's groups and sharing your knowledge and your wisdom, but I'm also sure that you're taking notes and listening. That's one thing I think that a lot of people don't do. Like, I went to a fitness conference once in California. And it was just like one big peeing contest where everybody just trying to show how smart they are and. And even he. Even here in the gym, I don't talk in personal, personal trainer jargon. It's like, no, get into a supine position. Who the hell talks like that? Except other trainers, you know, but if people can just come down a little, just be yourself, be who you are at your core, stop caring what society thinks you should be and just be you. I think men would find a lot of less stress in their lives.

Robert B. Foster: Yeah. And the truth, the truth, we gotta stop lying to each other. I'll give you an example. So as I mentioned earlier, right? Coach, track and field. We were doing the 4 by 100 relay, and one of my freshmen, I think she was the third leg when my freshman dropped the baton and we were in a position to qualify for states. So she drops the baton. I just happened to be walking by, as her mom says to her, honey, you did your best. And with me, I believe in brutal honesty. You know what I mean? It's if you did great, I'll tell you, you did great. If you sucked, I'm gonna tell you, you suck. And I said, I said, with all due respect, if she did her best. That baton wouldn't have hit the track. I said, we can't sugarcoat what it was. It's like, we're gonna learn from. Right? We're gonna learn from it. We're gonna get back to the drawing board and practice, and you can make up for that mistake. But that was not your best. I was like, I'm not. I'm not letting that fly. And we have to. We have to be able to hold each other accountable. And just like you said in the men's group, when you have to call, to call each other out, you guys call each other up. That's how. That's how you grow, you know? Like, if I'm being a jerk, tell me I'm being a jerk.

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally.

Robert B. Foster: That was awesome. And then behind my back saying, wow, that was terrible. You know, it's like, just. Just own it, right?

Jason Lange: Men long for that too, right? Terry Real is a famous therapist. He called. He. He has a great phrase for this. He calls it carefrontation. It's when I confront you with my care and love. I call it the spinach in the teeth moment. Right? I'm walking around all day. You come up to me and you're like, dude, Jason, do you realize you got a big ass piece of spinach in your teeth? And I'm like, what?

Robert B. Foster: Ooh.

Jason Lange: I feel a little embarrassed. But then what I feel is, wow. Thank you, Robert, for telling me. Because I've been walking around all day and no one else told me, and I look like an idiot. But I trust you because you were willing to tell me the uncomfortable thing that I needed to know or see. Because you care about me. And a good men's group brings that online. We call each other forward. We point to our shadows. We point to when we're off course. We point to when each other, out of integrity, not to shame each other, but because it's like, man, I love you. I know what you want. I know what you're capable of, and I'm here to remind you of that. And when men start to get that in their lives, man, the transformation is just incredible. Most men I know long to be tracked in that way where people are actually paying attention and willing to speak the hard thing to them because they often know it. We often know it as men. It's kind of like, well, I don't know. No one else cares. Should I care? Oh, no. People see, it turns out my presence turns out my behavior. It does matter. And these guys are reminding me of who I really want to Be.

Robert B. Foster: Yes. There was a man I was working with whose mom was killed in a car accident. It was like 30. Well, probably like 38 years ago now, because it was 35. This is about three years ago. And he just never. He never. He never got. Got over it. And so I said, the reason why you haven't gotten over it because you haven't accepted it like, you have it. You said, you're stuck on getting a phone call from your brother in hearing that your mom is no longer here. I said, don't take offense to this. I said, but you're being selfish. And he was. He was kind of taken back. I was like, you're focused on you. I said, you have to focus on what happened after you got that phone call. I said, that's where the story truly begins. I was like, because your mom is no longer with us, she's not coming back. You accept it, right? Like, you have to accept it. And now, how did you deal with the aftermath? I said, lean into that, and I want you to start writing down all the ways that it didn't break you. And then we completely reframed that entire story that he beat himself up for 35 years. And we reframed it in one session. It's like, people don't realize you can. You can. You can flip your mind almost instantly if you want to. Like, I just decided to stop getting angry, you know, Like, I'm not going to get angry to the point to where I lose control. Like, are there things that irritate me? Of course I'm human, but not to where I lose control. I just decided a couple of decades ago, like, I'm not doing that anymore. And I just stopped.

Jason Lange: Yeah, that. That. That's an empowering place to be, I would say, right when we can make that shift and when we stop avoiding. Right when we stop avoiding uncomfortable things and we just learn to be present with them and say, you know, and this is a big shift not all men are up for. But honestly, it is. Where we're being called to is being willing to take responsibility for our pain. Right. So many men don't want to step into that. And instead, what we're taught, what we're encouraged to do by our culture is, oh, it's your fault. Point it out there. It's your fault. It's your fault. It's your fault. And that's one of the many ways we're manipulated. But when as men, we can say, hey, wow, I'm. I'm largely responsible for my life, I can't control what happens to me, but I have an incredible amount of control in how I respond to it and that no one can take away from me. And that's a really free place, place that, you know, many people have spoken and written about over the years. And that's, you know, what, what I heard you stepping into is, wow, okay, this is the place where I really do have the most power. How do I respond to what happens to me in life? And lo and behold, one of the things I've discovered in my journey and now working with hundreds of men is that we're actually able to be more responsible, able to re. Able to respond when we're connected and supported in community and love.

Robert B. Foster: Absolutely. Yeah. With any of these groups that you talk to, if you're ever looking for a guest speaker, let me know because like I, I taught. I actually just made a program for male veterans so they can tell their stories of PTSD and we can reframe that story into something inspirational because I know a lot of guys, as we both mentioned, they're afraid, they're afraid of self expression, you know, so I can, I can definitely, I can definitely speak on that if you ever want. If you ever want me to. But we got a few minutes left. So if I go to your website, what am I going to find?

Robert B. Foster: Yeah. And be, and be willing and Be willing to listen. So before I kick it back to you for the final word, like, as a track coach, you know, you go to the track meets, there's other coaches. And like, my specialty is in the jumps. The high jump, triple jump, and the long jumps. And sometimes you can't see everything, Right? We're human. And so other coaches will come over and they'll be like, hey, you know, talking about one of. One of my jumpers, and I receive the info and why? Because I am looking out for my athlete. So if he sees something, maybe I caught it. I still welcome the feedback. I welcome the information. There are so many coaches that get so mad if you speak to their athletes. It's like, I see something and I'm just like, hey, hey. You know. You know, she's kind of. She's kind of stiff in the Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know, I know. I'm like. But it's been like that for two years, and she's still doing it. I was like, I'm trying to help her. You're taking it as an attack on you, and that's what people lose sight of, you know, like, when I bring on other fitness professionals, I always tell them, I'm like, you know, we're not here to outdo each other. We're here to think about the people in the audience who are afraid to get started. Right? So. So if I say something that might be in contrary to you, that that's fine. Like, there's different levels of fitness. You know, there's different formats. So your format and my format might be a little different, but we both get each other results. That's what matters. So let's focus there. I'll share my style. Don't try to outdo my style. Just share your style, you know? So, like, from listening to you, we're both pretty much saying the same thing, right? I just think I'm just a little more blunt than you are. Right. That's not better or worse. Like, some people, believe it or not, like, here in the gym, I teach group fitness. There are people that I have to swear at to get them to move. Like, some people respond to that. There are other people. I got to put my arm around them and be like, hey, you're doing a great job today.

Jason Lange: Sure.

Robert B. Foster: It's like, so, like, so the people that need that boot. That boot in the butt, right? Boot on the butt. Those people are going to gravitate towards me. You know, the people that need you will gravitate toward. Towards you. So on and so forth. And that's why being authentic is, is so needed. Like with me, I don't work with very obese people. Right. And there's nothing against that population. I did lose 45 pounds once in my life, but I was never like obese. So I don't know how that person thinks, you know, because like, you have to be at a certain level to let yourself go that far. And I haven't experienced that, that level. So when I get people in here that want to lose like 70 to 100 pounds, I just politely let them know I'm not the guy for you. And that's, that's okay. So if people come to me on the more personal level, like personal development level, I let them know up front my style is, I'm very blunt. It's like, I'm not going to sugarcoat anything. I'm going to tell you what your shortcomings are, I'm going to tell you how you can fix them, and I'm going to give you the steps to do it and I'm going to hold your feet to the fire. Like if you're prepared for all of that, we can do work together. If not, then no. So I want you, in the final word, just, just like describe your target, your target market, target audience, and just describe your style of how you get people results.

Jason Lange: Sure. You know, a lot of men come to me when they're in pain. I'll just be blunt. They just lost a relationship, they lost a job, they lost kids, they feel depressed. It's really the sense, you know, sometimes guys get onto that rat race of I'm supposed to do this and this and this. And then most men have a moment, you know, you call it middle aged crisis, called wave one. Is this it? Like literally, is this it? Am I just destined to grind through the rest of my life? And what I help men realize is, no, that's not it. There's so much more available to you that you can feel and experience in your body. But to do that, you got to know how to take care of your nervous system, get grounded, get resilient. You got to know how to open up emotionally, share, get support. And yeah, you have to know what direction your life is going in. What's your purpose? Are you here to serve? What's your unique thing that you can support other people through that, like I said, often comes from your deepest pain. So if you're not intimate with your pain, guess what? You're not going to help other people with theirs. So I work with Men all over the place in various different ranges, but they're men who are. Who say, you know what? I want to feel more alive, and I don't want to do it alone. And so when men come on a journey with me, you know, within three, six, 12 months, they tend to have experiences that they've never had before. Oh, yeah, there we go. Yeah, we drifted there for a second.

Robert B. Foster: Yeah. Okay. All right, so let people know with where they can connect with you. I know you gave. You gave the website already, but throw yourself out there as well.

Jason Lange: That's the best. Best place is just go to evolutionary.men. so it's not dot com, but stop men. And on there, you'll find a link to my Instagram, YouTube, all that kind of jazz, if you feel so called. But you'll learn a lot about men's work just going on there. And you know what I say to guys is, yeah, my mission is every man should be in a men's group. Doesn't matter if it's a group I run or any of my stuff. You're like, hell, I don't know where to get started. Just hit. Hit me up right in the contact thing. I'll point you to some resources near you that feel aligned and good because we guys need the help. And life's not going to be easier, but it's going to get a lot better.

Robert B. Foster: Love it. Email me some. Some links to your men's groups, and I'll add them into the show notes when I put this on Spotify.

Jason Lange: Awesome. Sounds great, man. Love it.

Robert B. Foster: All right. And I showed you this earlier. So I. I do panels. Like, I haven't done one in probably a year, but I'm going to start these up again. Where we take. I invite up to six of my guests back. As you can see, there's only four in this one, but I invite up to six. And the seven of us, just round table, one topic, right? And people. People always say at first, well, what if somebody else says what I'm going to say? I'm like, I think I've done 17 panels so far. And it very rarely happens because we all have a unique perspect perspective. And the example I always use is if you ask 50 people and you say the word vacation right, people are gonna think 50 different things, right? So some are gonna say the beach, some are gonna say diving. So I'm gonna say, go on a cruise. Some are gonna say, go to a NASCAR race. You know what I mean? You're gonna get so many different answers. And in personal development, it's the same thing. I can say, empathy, what does that mean to you? And you. We're gonna give seven different answers for the same topic. So, yeah, if that, if that interests you, let me know. And a lot of collaborations have come from these 17 panels too. People have co authored books, people have started shows together, people have started, started side hustles together. So, you know, I'm, I'm probably gonna get those going within, within a couple weeks. I'll do one probably every other week. And yeah, I'll let you know if you're interested.

Jason Lange: Awesome. Yeah, keep me in the loop, man.

Robert B. Foster: All right, man. Well, thank you very much for coming, taking your time to share your passion and experience, and I can tell that you truly do care about, about helping people and that's awesome. So thank you for all the work that you're doing supporting men, and I'll be in touch.

Jason Lange: Awesome. Thanks so much, Robert. Have a great day.

Robert B. Foster: Thank you too.