Episode 1.08: The Power of Men’s Work and Belonging with Jason Lange | ILLUMENATE

Host: This is Illuminate the podcast about men with good hearts, open minds, and a desire to make the world better. Welcome to Illuminated. I'm your host, Chris Tiedrick, and I'm here with Jason Lange. Jason is a men's embodiment coach, group facilitator, Certified no More Mr. Nice Guy Coach and evolutionary guide. He helps men drop in and wake up to deeper clarity in their life's purpose and relationships. He believes every man should be in a men's group for the growth and support opportunities they provide. Welcome to the show, Jason.

Jason Lange: So excited to be here.

Host: Yeah. So I'm going to dive right in. What I do to start all of these podcast episodes is to talk about most motivation. And so tell me about what's your why? Where do you find purpose and what drives you?

Jason Lange: Yeah, you know, you. You kind of just named it right there in that. Big part of my mission is I think everybody, every man should be in a men's group. And that comes out of my own life experience. So the two, you know, go hand in hand. And a lot of the work I do with men are on purpose, lo and behold, you know, I'm not the first person that's thought of this, but oftentimes our deepest purpose comes from our deepest pain. And for me, you know, I grew up white guy, Midwestern United states in the 80s and 90s, so had a lot of my basic security needs met for me, but my family had no internal connection, no emotional connection, no physical touch, no, like, actual intimacy. And, you know, when you're young, you don't really know what you don't know.

Host: Right. It's just. It's the normal thing. Right.

Jason Lange: It's just what is. And then, you know, you start to often hit kind of adolescence and teenage years and get out of the house and experience other things and other families, and it's like, oh, wow, wait, you know, what was my regular isn't necessarily how the rest of the world works. And it was at that age that, you know, I discovered that there was a big impact to a lot of the neglect I had experienced. And it took me, you know, another couple of decades to start to unwind that. And lo and behold, one of the most transformative things I found is being part of a men's group and getting into community. And for me, I focus on male community. But really, any kind of community, I think is just so crucial these, these days. So I'm just super inspired to create that for people.

Host: Okay, fantastic. Let's. Let's talk dive a little bit Deeper into your journey. So kind of go back to where, where you feel like you want to start on the journey and kind of give me a sense of what the path has been along the way.

Jason Lange: Yeah, for me, it started, you know, really around puberty. Right in that suddenly, you know, I'm heterosexual, I was interested in girls, I found myself attracted, and yet I would totally freeze up, had no idea how to talk to them. My body would get awkward and sweaty and I'd get really uncomfortable, just really uncomfortable. And it started to create a lot of pain for me as I got older in that there was this thing I wanted and I didn't know how to create it. And every time I tried to go for it, it would end up being a very unpleasant experience, often for me and the person I was pursuing. And that basically kind of kickstarted me on a, honestly, a path of kind of growth and philosophy where I was just like, you know what? I don't feel good in my body every day. Like, there's gotta be a different way. And like a lot of men, I first hit that through my mind philosophically. And then that led me into some different transformational work that most importantly got me involved in men's work, men's groups and somatic therapy. Somatic work. And for me, you know, a big turning point was I was in my 20s, I was in my first men's group, and older male mentor came in to work with us who was kind of a transformational dude therapist. And I had done some talk therapy for like a year, like trying to figure things out. And, you know, it turned out I was pretty sophisticated in terms of hiding and not really revealing what was going on for me. I was still a virgin at the time. You know, I was in my mid-20s. I wasn't even telling my closest friends I was addicted to porn. Like, it was, it was pretty gnarly, but I'm doing some work with this guy and within five minutes, I kid you not, within five minutes I'm on my back and I'm crying like a two year old, just with my arms up in the air saying, where are you? Hold me. Where are you? Hold me. And just sobbing in a way my body had never done before. And I come out of that and I'm like, whoa, what was that? Like, what was that? I didn't know that that was in there. It started to make some sense to me as I pieced together kind of my history. And that was my first big opening of wow, there's, there's all this Kind of pain in my nervous system from neglect that has been driving my behavior without me realizing it. So that's what I call, you know, shadow work now. And for me, that was a huge turning point because I felt something different in my body that I had never felt before. And it started to give me a little bit of hope, frankly.

Host: Yeah. Tell me, how did you. How did you get connected to that first men's group? Like, what was the. What was the.

Jason Lange: I just got lucky, man. Yeah, I was lucky. I moved out to Boulder, Colorado to work for this non profit for a philosopher. And so that, you know, people in that world were doing everything. It was kind of this little spiritual community. And so men's work came through and some of us, you know, had read Way of Spear Man. Like we started men's group and so we did. And then we just happened to have another mentor of ours who facilitated them, and he came in and led our group for like a year. And that changed my life. That group totally transformed me because it gave me a type of connection I had never had before. And more than anything else, it gave me belonging and a sense of direction. So guys who were like, tracking me in my life, in. In what I wanted to do with it, and that started to move the needle for me so fast to have an accountability partner.

Host: Accountability, yeah. Right?

Jason Lange: Totally. Yeah. A group of guys who were holding me accountable to the life I was saying I wanted to be living. Right. I want to do this. Yeah, do this. I have this dream and then I wasn't necessarily doing it, but the group, you know, in a loving way, held me to the fire and I just got to know other men at a deep level and see that. Okay, wow. There's a lot of things I'm good at and a lot of things I'm not. And it's just one of the things I love about being in a group is so.

Host: I. I've not done any men's group work in. In my life. It. Honestly, I've, like, it's. In the last decade is the first time I've had like, really close male friends in my life. It. I've really had female, close female friends almost all of my life. And. And it's. I've been intentional about building male friendships over the last decade. So, like, what is the. What is the work of men's group? What does that look like for someone who might be curious about it?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, men, the broad body of work. Right. Is men's work, but it's all really just human work. So it's the process of becoming more full, alive humans. But what we often find, and what I find is people tend to grow the most when they feel the safest. This is like a kind of a paradox, right? When they feel safe, they'll dive into their edge. And whether you're a man, a woman, non binary, anything in between, there's something that happens when we're in context with people who have lived a similar life experience to us. Doesn't mean they're exactly like us, but they've been raised and shaped by the same cultural forces as us. And so what I've seen with men's groups and is that allows something to come forward in men that doesn't necessarily come forward in other places. And so while it is human work, there is something really unique about getting a group of guys together who have a good intention. And, you know, it's almost like this exhale just that I see of like. Huh. Because, you know, there's. There's so much we don't have to worry about, in a sense. And so men's groups, you know, the simplest way I've kind of been sharing this is, you know, one of the reasons I don't think you're alone, I have a job, is a lot of men don't have good male community. And there's lots of things that tie into why that is how we're raised, what we're taught. Men are supposed to be different cultural factors that are kind of shifting things. But one of the few areas that has remained is most men, by default, connect through what I call triangulation, which means you and I build connection with each other by putting our attention on some third thing. A sporting game, fixing something, doing an activity. So we connect by putting our attention on a third thing. So it's a. It's actually a triangle. And there's a time and place for that. It's awesome. It's a great way to bond with men in a certain way. But it doesn't necessarily hit the connection juice that a lot of us need. So many men can go out, you know, spend a weekend with their bros, have a nice dinner, and come back and feel lonely because you're not supposed to talk about what's happening inside. Right? You're just talking about the game. You're talking about women.

Host: Because you're not. You're not connecting with each other. You're connecting exactly something. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Lange: Yep. Right. And sports bars are a great example. You know, everyone's attention is on the tv, right? Yeah. So Men's group at its most simple in a lot of ways is what happens when we turn that attention on each other. So we actually build connection by turning our attention on, hey, Christopher, like, what's going on in your life right now? What, what's painful? What hurts? What's going awesome? Where do you want to be? Where are you now? You know, and what's it feel like to be you right now? Right. There's this kind of like, what is actually happening in your life? And the amazing thing is, though, sometimes men are resistant at first or have stories about whatever. What I find is once men get into a space where they feel safe, turns out we have a lot to say and unload because most men are taught, carry it all inside, be tough, never share, don't reveal. And so when we finally have a place to, a lot comes out and when we're able to bring that out and it's held, you know, by a community of people who just hear us, love us, want the best for us, will support us when we're down, as I say. And yes, hold us accountable when there's something we want to move forward or if we're off track, things start to change a lot. And, you know, last thing I'll. I'll share about it is one of the great, I guess, impacts I see or ways we can use that time with each other as men is it sounds so radically simple, but it's in that process, we're actually guiding each other deeper into our felt body experience. So there's all this stuff happening in our lives. But for a lot of us men, we walk around above the chest, right? We're just up here ruminating in our heads thinking, oh, I gotta win at this. I'm losing at this. How do I do this? That was tough. And we don't ever really drop in to our bodies. And men's group is a great way. Sometimes I joke it's like the old movie the Matrix, you know, it's like Matrix time. It's bullet time. We can really slow each other down. So maybe when you're reporting on something in your life, I actually ask you and like, yeah, but how are you feeling about that? Yeah, right. And then suddenly a man.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Drops in and he's like.

Host: Yeah, you.

Jason Lange: Know, tears or anger or whatever that might be.

Host: Yeah, I use that. I use that with both men and women on my team at work, I will often ask, awesome, how. How are you feeling about that? And yeah, like, if people are used to it with me now, but like, initially they're like, wait, what? You just asked me how I felt.

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah, totally. And there's lots of other things you can do in there. There's embodiment practices and, you know, setting goals and just supporting each other, accessing emotions, you know, but that's the basic gist is you just. You're getting together to go deeper into your life with each other and reveal what's actually happening. Instead of the default patriarchal, masculine kind of hold it all inside and be tough, which just doesn't work. It just doesn't work. I mean, I think we're. We're at that threshold point as a culture. We see what happens to men when they are pushed into that their whole lives, and it's disastrous.

Host: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons why I started this podcast was to talk to men that have kind of broken out of that have. Trying to figure. Have figured out at least partially how to function as whole humans outside of that construct, because that construct is so limiting. So limiting to us. And I think there's a lot of men that don't know how to get out of the construct. They. They. They maybe see a light on the other side, but they don't know how to get to that light. And, you know, I. I wanted this to be some way. Some, you know, if. If one of these episodes sparks somebody, you know, something in someone and says, hey, I'm like that guy, and he was able to do this. I can do this, too. Yeah.

Jason Lange: It's so needed right now.

Host: So one of the themes that I'm focusing on in all of these conversations that I'm having with men on this podcast is this idea of growth. And it occurs to me that almost all real growth in our lives requires deconstruction, that there's some foundational thing that we've had in our lives that in order to grow, you have to take part of that foundation and knock it down in order to build the new thing. Some of the foundational stuff is still good, Right. Some of the stuff we carry with us our entire lives, but some of those foundations we need to. We need to knock down. So for you personally, what are the things that you've had to deconstruct in your life? I think you hinted at some of that in your kind of the origin story, but let's dive a little deeper into that. Like, what are those things you had to knock down?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, at a personal level, it was, don't share what's going on inside. Don't Talk about what's actually happening. Show your love by just doing things for people, not saying it or intimately connecting with stuff. I got pretty heavily, culturally, you know, I got all the, kind of a lot of the man stuff around. Yeah. You know, be tough, be flashy, be strong, six pack abs. And then unwinding all of that in the context of. For me, you know, this literally just came up maybe in the last couple years. Whoa. There's a whole vein of deep self loathing and shame that had been powering my whole life. Whole life. That some challenging circumstances in my life kind of pressed me into this position of a decision I had to make. Make that doesn't matter. But it came down to like, well, I want to be a good person. You know, a good person would do this. And I was feel guilty feeling guilty for maybe not doing that. And that was like the. The eye of the needle for me. So I went through that. I was like, why, why, why do I feel such a drive to be a good person? And like, I had to start really sitting with it. And then I was like. And then, I mean, it hit me like a ton of bricks. It was like, wow, because I don't feel that inside. So I need other people to reflect that to me. And then, you know, this whole way of being that, you know, powered me for 42 years started to come into focus and I had to start to really see it and say, okay, this, you know. And unsurprisingly, in my men's group, I had often gotten feedback from people of like, you know, like, you're really hard on yourself sometimes. Like, you know, it's. It, you know, it's okay. Just do you know how hard on yourself? And I'm like, no, it's fine. It's. You don't understand, like, I deserve the data. And then it all started to connect where it was like, oh, wow. Yeah. There was this belief structure around, you know, I'm. I'm not a good person. I'm like, not worthy. I'm not functional. That I had to start to deconstruct. And then with that has come, you know, this was one of the things I was working on last year of ooh. As that shifts a big edge for me that I've had to deconstruct is like, conflict isn't a bad thing. It's okay to bring myself forward and feel something differently than whoever I'm with, which is something I was extremely. I was extremely conflict avoidant for a large part of my life. And so deconstructing that has been incredible because now I'm like, oh, my God, this is, like, the cheat code for my life. It's just anytime something feels, like, tense, if I just go towards it, life gets. It's incredible, things happen. It's just awesome.

Host: Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. I've had it. I've had this interesting thing where at work, I am not conflict avoidant in the least bit. Like, I will be direct with people. We attack, problems, we face them. In my personal life.

Jason Lange: Yeah, sure.

Host: Like, I don't know if it's like, I just get, like, there's too much of it at work, and then I'm just, like, done with conflict. Yeah. But I. I can definitely understand, like, how dangerous that is to be conflict avoidant and. Yeah, like, what. What it does to your personal relationships.

Jason Lange: Totally. And I think that's. Yeah, a lot of men struggle with that these days, because not all men, but many men. You know, part of the work I do is a large portion of men were raised witnessing men who had no control over their anger or their nervous system. So ceiling seeing, really aggressive men sometimes take it out on them as kids, sometimes their. Their family, their spouses, their community, the world, whatever. And so a whole swath of men grew up saying, like, no, thanks. I don't want to be that. I don't want to be that jerk. Right. I don't want to be aggressive, dominating prick. Um, but then the pendulum swings a little bit too far the other way where they don't really have the training or capacity. Just like, I didn't to. To stand in the fire of like, hey, what's happening right now? No, that's not okay. Or you said you were going to do that and you didn't, and I'm feeling angry, you know, or whatever that might be.

Host: Yeah. I was reading up a little bit before this on the no more Mr. Nice Guy coaching. And that. That's that paradigm, right, of if you're. If you're trying not to be that angry, toxic guy. The answer isn't to shift all the way over to just people pleasing all the time. Right. There's a middle there that you have to find that works for you.

Jason Lange: Exactly. Yeah. And it's a huge subset of men's work. It's just this nice guy work. And the man who wrote that book's a friend and a mentor of mine, and it's kind of like a Matrix book for a lot of men. They read it and they're like, whoa. And it. You know, more and more people read it every year. It, like, sells more copies every year than the previous year. So there's, like, this kind of tidal wave coming, and I think it's a good thing.

Host: So tell me how it seems like you've done a lot of this deconstruction work over the course of your life. And, you know, the. The example that you gave of. Of working with that one therapist where you had this sort of, like, incredibly visceral reaction to the therapy. It's, like, really hard work. And I think that maybe it's. That type of thing is, like, frightening for some men to even take the first step into it, because you're like, once I start chipping away at the foundation, like, what's left? Like, what am I standing on at that point? Like, what do you do to hang on? Like, what do you hang on to when you're doing this work on yourself? That. That gives you that anchor?

Jason Lange: Well, for me, and frankly, for a lot of guys that come to me, it. It's. There's just got to be something better. There's, like, not even always a lot to hang on to. It's like, life is so painful, and I've. I've tried to make it work so hard in whatever paradigm I was handed, and it isn't working right. And this shows up in all kinds of different ways. For some men, it's. They stepped onto the escalator of success. Like, oh, I do this. You're supposed to get this job, and then you get this much money, and then you're happy, right? And then they hit 40, 50. Their kids hit, you know, 18, 19. Their wife's like, I'm leaving you. I've been in love with you for years. We haven't had a relationship since before the kids. And they're like, what? You know, this isn't working right? Or they burn themselves out physically. You know, autoimmune stuff. Guys just ride themselves to the ground. Or some men. Yeah, right. Oh, I don't want to be a jerk. I don't want to be a sexual predator. So I'm going to be the super nice guy. And they've gone on 200 first dates over three years and, you know, can't get a second date and are just dying inside for intimacy. Like, for actual intimacy and relationship. Right?

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And I had my versions of that. And so a lot of times, guys come to me in a lot of pain, and they're like, I want to be out of the pain, and I will try anything at this point. It's, you know, it's the equivalent to like, my arm's broken if I don't care how you fix it. But if you can fix it so I can move my arm again, you know, I'm. I'll be your best friend kind of thing. Um, so for me there's a, you know, there's always been that. And then I just got lucky, I guess, in that for me, I'm not sure what else the point is other than to grow in life. Like, I'm just, you know, super growth oriented person that it's like, what are we here to do other. Other than, you know, bring some part of us to wholeness so that we can make things a little easier for other people, you know, so I'm just like, this is my lifestyle now. And then as guys start to work with me, a lot of them get that. It's like, oh, yeah, well, you know, like, what else am I going to do? You know? What I find in men's groups a lot of times is once guys experience depth of connection, it's kind of hard to go back to kind of the default surface level, you know, kind of. I call it the American kind of McDonald's. How you doing? Good. Oh, how you doing? Good. Yeah. Okay, cool. You know.

Host: Yeah. Once. You know what deep, deep conversation is.

Jason Lange: Small talk is like once you see.

Host: Someone annoying to the nth degree.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Once someone's gotten vulnerable or gone deep or revealed or, you know, like, in my case, I. I literally felt something in my nervous system that I had never felt before. I was like, wow, there's so much more to life than I even was living in this narrow range. So I don't know if that quite answered your question other than usually guys come to me and I was just in so much pain. I was like, anything has to be better than this. So let's do this.

Host: Yeah. So I want to dive even deeper into this conversation is fascinating me, this idea of growth all the time. I could see someone getting in this mode and I think in some ways I've gotten in this mode myself where if you say I have to grow all the time, that becomes another shame cycle. Like, if I'm not growing, I'm not good enough. And so how do you balance that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, well, I would use the metaphor of the seasons for this in that it can't be summer all the time. And actually a lot of. For many men, and I still have to work this every day. For many of us men, our biggest growth is to slow down, do less, and actually take care of our bodies and be present in our lives. Paradoxically though, that's like, it's not the typical growth. Right. But sometimes, you know, I've worked with guys where their biggest growth was saying, you know what I'm taking two weeks off to do, Go on vacation.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And I'm not open to my email. And that is like a huge growth edge for their nervous system. So yeah, when I say grow, grow, it's not that we always have to be pushing myself to grow. It's that the more present and deeper I get into my life, the more things will be revealed to me where I'm not meeting it fully. Yeah, that's it. Like layers of the onion.

Host: There's going to be room to improve, but you don't have to pressure yourself into doing that. I love the analogy of the seasons. There's. I have always, at least in my adult life, have always had a big interest in working outdoors. Like I build, you know, I build our home landscape and it's built award winning gardens and, and it's like, that's a place where I feel like super comfortable when my hands are in the dirt. And I'm kind of being creative out there. But I will tell you, we're in a. I live in Illinois and you know, we have a full four seasons. I will tell you I grew up out there. Yeah. By the end of fall, I'm like, I'm done. I want winter to be here now because I've put so much of myself into building that and growing that I'm like, I need a break. I just need to take a breath every so often. So that's a great analogy.

Jason Lange: That's kind of the cycle of, you know, it's like you go out and you play ball and, and in the playing a ball, you're like, oh, here's the things I could do to improve my game. So then I'm going to go back and kind of restore my body, train, learn some new skills. At some point I'll go out and play again. But it's not about playing full out all the time in my mind. And growth can look like so many different things. Like I said, sometimes growth is more rest. Sometimes growth is more time with kids. Sometimes growth is giving yourself permission to feel good in your body. Yeah, it's a huge edge. For some guys I work with, it's like, no, you're, you're allowed to feel good. And they're like, no, I'm not. It's like, yeah, no, you are.

Host: Yeah, you should, you should. You'll be a much better human if you feel good. Like, humans that don't feel good aren't the nicest humans in the world. Right. It's really hard to be, like, an outwardly nice person when you feel like crap.

Jason Lange: It's. Yeah, exactly. So true.

Host: Yeah. So let's switch up a little bit and talk about community. I mean, you. You've talked about with the. The men's group stuff, but outside of that, like, what do you. What do you. Or who do you rely on for support? Like, where are the. Where are the human anchors in your life?

Jason Lange: Sure. My wife is a huge part of that. You know, she's a big part of that for me. I have coaches, I have therapists of my own that I work with. And then, yeah, to be totally honest, it's. It's men. It's the. It's the men's groups in my life. I'm a father of two, one pretty new, one a couple years old. I'm an entrepreneur. Just the way my life is structured, I do not have a whole lot of bandwidth for socializing and whatnot these days. So men's group for me is awesome because I get my social needs met and I get deep, deep support and brotherhood in that process. It's like a very good investment of a limited time I have. And so, to be totally frank, I'm part of probably three or four men's groups. One that meets locally, one that meets once or twice a year, one that meets online, and one that just kind of sporadically meets. So I have these kind of networks of men around me, and that's where I kind of get it. That's my bat dial. Now when I'm in emergency, I'm hitting my groups, and there's almost always somebody that has something for me, a piece of knowledge or wisdom or attention or something that they can bring to me and help really just keep me thriving in life. Like, that's the thing that I found just more than anything else, you know, that has really stuck with me personally. So that's my primary support, I'd say, outside my wife.

Host: So how you describe men's groups? I. I'm fascinated by the idea of male friendship. As I said before, it's a relatively new, like, significant thing for me. And how would you compare the relationship you have with the men in the men's group? Would you characterize those as friendship? Or is it. Is it something different than that? Because if it's like the group dynamic is different than one on one. So, like, how. How do you what role does male friendship play in your life?

Jason Lange: Yeah, they, I, you know, it's maybe an overused term a bit, but it, when I'm in group with guys, particularly groups that meet consistently over time. So, like, you know, there's one group I was in for 10 years, I'm back with a group now that I had been with in my 20s. Like, just have some real history. And at that point, these guys are like brothers. You know, we frequently talk about. It might sound a little morbid, but it's like, yeah, we're going to the grave. We're gonna, you know, we're gonna be present. One of us is gonna die first and others are gonna die, and we're gonna be present, like at that level in each other's lives. And that's, to me, that's a little beyond friendship. You know, these are the people. I remember one time I was moving when I was living back in California, and, you know, it took me so long to pack up and I had to go get my, My wife was just my girlfriend at the time and took so long. And by the time I got to her place, it was like, I don't know, five o', clock, and she was super stressed, like, moving into this new house and dark and, you know, boom, bat dial men's group. Like, I got an emergency. I need bodies at this place. , who can come? And, you know, five men come. And what would have taken us four or five hours took us literally 40 minutes to unload. It's, it's those kinds of emergencies or my first child, when she was born, about two months after she was born, we found out she was deaf. And it was just like a total blindside to me. And those groups just held me as I just wailed, honestly, in tears of, I don't know what this means. I'm so scared. We didn't know if there were further health complications at that point. These were the, these are the men I go to to be held when I can't hold it anymore. And so they're very deep.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And, you know, we meet as groups, but then inevitably there's always one on one connection outside of that, that, that's just, okay, we're gonna grab lunch, we're gonna go for a hike, we're gonna, Whatever.

Host: Yeah, it's just utterly beautiful the way you describe that. It's like really, really, like a strong image. And I, I, I wonder, were you, like, when you were growing up, like, did you have close male friends? You know how, like, when you Were younger, sure. Are you. Do you have siblings? Like how.

Jason Lange: Yeah, no. My. I was third of four in. The closest sibling I had was five years apart. So we had pretty big gaps. So there just wasn't like a whole lot of overlap in that space. And then I was a little closer to my dad when I was young. Like that was what he was able to kind of do that like 0 to 5, age a little bit. It wasn't tremendous, but there's a little bit more.

Host: So.

Jason Lange: But then he was pretty unpresent in terms of how he just didn't know how to bring, you know, guidance into my life in a meaningful way. He was just working all the time. And point of this being I had like a little bit more comfort with men. And so I did get lucky in that in high school. I wouldn't call it a men's group, but I like found my tribe of kind of nerds and dweebs, to be totally honest. Like, we connected around video games and I didn't know how to go deeper at that time, but it was like men in my life and they kind of became my family in a lot of ways because I had like more intimacy even though it wasn't super deep. I had more with them than I did my own family. So I got pretty lucky in that I kind of always had a group of guys and you know, lo and behold, we were often the group of guys that didn't have girlfriends. So, you know, there was always kind of like that. That sustained me, you know, through, through college in a lot of ways. But it wasn't until my twenties that I really got into the group that made me go inside and have to share and be vulnerable and honestly be held accountable. That was, that was like the next level.

Host: Yeah. Okay, so now we're going to switch to our lightning round. And so 1111 questions that I throw at all my guests. Kind of rapid fire answers. We may want to dive into one or two of them. I may ask a couple follow up questions, ask for a little more context on. On a few of them.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: But let's. You ready to jump in?

Jason Lange: I'm ready.

Host: All right, what are your top three values?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say I don't quite know the word for this, so I'm going to make it up. But like humanize, humanizing. Just to always try to see the human in anyone that, you know. For me, that often comes across as even people. I'm triggered by judging whatever. It's like, okay, this is a person who once was a kid this is a person who has hopes and dreams and, you know, who hurts inside. Like, can I just feel that? So that. And then I would say, yeah, again, kind of just this idea of. Of growth. You know, I. I kind of call it evolution, which, you know, I think actually ties to what you were calling deconstruction in that, you know, a big part of. With everything, it's like, we want to take the best and we want to carry it forward.

Host: That's it.

Jason Lange: Right. We want to take the best of what worked and carry it forward. And that process of transcending, including, like, that is evolution. And I deeply, I just. I value that in everything in my own life, my community and whatnot. And though my wife might disagree because I can get pretty grumpy, I would say, like, play, honestly, is a value of, like, when I'm at my best, I bring a lot of play and, like, fun into the orbit of people around me. And to me, that's like one of the highest order vibrations there are. That it's like, you know, we never know.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: A lot of us men get trapped into, well, someday it'll be better and then I can enjoy my life. Right. So how do you.

Host: How do you prod your. How do you prod yourself into doing that? It sounds like you're, you know, with your kids.

Jason Lange: Definitely helps.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And then just, you know, taking. I. I mean, a lot. A lot of times what I do with men is sometimes just creating a container to have some fun, like, to actually just play. Like, when was the last time you played guys? You know, it's wild how much it can transform someone's nervous system. And it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, you know, pardon me, but it's just like, oh, yeah, it's worth living again, you know, and scheduling it, you know, that's the thing that becomes important as a parent of, like, okay, gotta schedule time with my wife to have some fun. Schedule time with my men to have some fun. Schedule time alone to have some fun and to get out there and just try novel, new fun things.

Host: Yeah, I always. I always tell emerging leaders, your calendar reflects your priorities exactly. So.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: So who is one role model you've had in your life?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'll say. So this the. The man I talked about that did that initial piece of work for me. His name was Robert, and for a couple reasons. And, you know, again, this is one of the vacuums I see with a lot of men. But I remember I was sitting in group with him camera first, before or after I had done My work. But his wife had been there for a little bit to like bring some snacks or something. And then I saw him interacting with other men. And, you know, I was probably 26, 27 at the time. And I, I joke not like I had that experience of, oh, that's what I want to be when I grow up. And it wasn't like, I want to do what he's doing, even though I do some similar things now. It was the first time I had the experience of, wow, his nervous system, I want that, like, the way he's carrying himself, the way he's breathing, the way he's speaking, the way he's dealing with conflict. Like, that's the kind of man I want to be when I grow up. And I hadn't really had any models of that. And so feeling it was so inspirational of like, oh, that's what I want to move towards. Right. And then, well, so how did you get here? What did you do? And, you know, that helped shape the direction of my life. Yeah.

Host: So who do you hope you are a role model for.

Jason Lange: Men who feel stuck? You know, frankly, I was, it just, I was a late blooming virgin into my mid to late 20s. Just terrible with women in all kinds of financial debt for most of my 20s and 30s. And now I got two kids and a beautiful wife and a career I care about. And just that if you put in the time to work on your inner work, the outer world can really change because it really has for me.

Host: Okay, so this, this next one might be slightly repetitive, but I'm gonna ask it anyways. What's the, what's the one way you make the world a better place for others?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I like to say, or I don't know, I don't like to say, but I think the experience I like to create is that everyone belongs. So the, the types of events I create, men get to have the experience of, oh, I belong here. Like, I belong whatever it is. Like, there's a sense of I get to be here and I belong here. And that connection in that community I just see as one of the most precious resources we have right now.

Host: Yeah, it's. I'll add an aside there because I, I think I've, I've done so much, like, since I kind of. The idea for this podcast came to me in early November and I was like, what is. Like what is with men, like, in this country? Like, what is it? And I can't help but believe that it's a lack of belonging.

Jason Lange: Totally.

Host: And so they're flocking towards something that makes them feel like they belong.

Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely.

Host: That has a resident. A resonant message. Even if it's not a positive message.

Jason Lange: It helps them human need and it's. It shows up, I think, particularly strong for men. I. I would say one of the two things that I think drive men are they want belonging and purpose. And there's a lot of men out there right now who feel neither. And when they feel neither, they become very open to manipulation.

Host: Yeah, absolutely. So what's the hardest thing about being you in today's world?

Jason Lange: Just lack of time. 2 month old. I have a 5 year old. Time is just. There's so much I want to do and there's very little resource to do it right now. So that's kind of my struggle every day. And you know, that's at like the personal level and at the grander level of just like. Yeah. You know how mean the world feels like it's gotten recently? Just like it's gotten mean. Just like meanness is now a value. And I just think that's pretty awful.

Host: Yeah. I'll. I'll offer you the advice to give yourself some grace on that first one.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I know it's just a season. Yeah. As I say. Yeah.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: What.

Host: What's your favorite emotion?

Jason Lange: Oh man, that's great. I'd say wonder. Like what? Wonder slash awe. It's kind of. To me it's the same thing, but you know, like popping in an old episode of Cosmos by Carl Sagan or something and just like.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Whoa.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Just I am. Or seeing a beautiful landscape or honestly seeing a man step into some part of himself he's never touched. Like, it just blows me away that going to a good movie like, that's. That's my juju. I'll go for that anytime.

Host: Awesome. So what's your least favorite emotion?

Jason Lange: I'm gonna cheat here and I'm gonna say none of them at this point. In that I don't consider positive or negative. You know, what I consider is there's light in the dark and we need all of them. And the more you resist an emotion, the more it has control over you. Is. Is what I found. It doesn't mean go out there and spew your emotions on people. But one of the most important things men can do these days is learn to take a responsibility for their emotions and how they're expressing them and to move them in safe, appropriate places.

Host: Yeah. What brings you the most joy in life.

Jason Lange: Right now? Parenting, for sure.

Host: Just.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Seeing my kids.

Host: What about it? What about it? I just, I like want to know.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Like I said, I'm pretty into this idea of development and consciousness and evolution and you know, to actually see it happen of, wow, there's more looking back at me than was there yesterday. What is that? Like, there's actually, there's more. More of a sense of self at that age.

Host: Like day to day, you can see it.

Jason Lange: It's wild.

Host: It's like totally.

Jason Lange: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So feeling those shifts and just seeing that whole mysterious process of like going from undifferentiated consciousness to, you know, an aware kid that can tell a joke or like, where did you learn that? You know, just like, it's just incredible.

Host: That's evolution, right? Because if humans didn't exactly that that quickly, we wouldn't have survived as long as we have.

Jason Lange: 100.

Host: What makes you the most proud of yourself?

Jason Lange: I would say my tenacity. It's been a. I've had a bear of a decade in a lot of ways, but just sticking to it, you know, it's just like a slow and steady thing I've been doing with my life and my family and my career. And I'm just super proud of myself sticking to it because, you know, it's starting to blossom in a lot of ways. Not that more hardship won't come, but it's like, okay, yeah, like I'm proud of where I've led myself.

Host: So there's a lot of things that you mentioned that bring you joy and wonder and fulfillment and that seemingly satisfaction. Where's the one place where you feel the most yourself?

Jason Lange: Yeah, let's see. Ed, Pearl Jam concert, rocking out.

Host: That's a great, That's a great answer. How many times? How many times have you seen them?

Jason Lange: I think I just clocked my maybe 30th or 31st show perhaps.

Host: Wow.

Jason Lange: This year? Yeah. Been going since I was like 14.

Host: So my brother in law is a huge Pearl Jam fan and he.

Jason Lange: Oh, sweet.

Host: He brought me to the show at Wrigley a few years ago and it was.

Jason Lange: Oh yeah, totally. Yeah. Actually I was at the one in 2013 where it got rained out, so.

Host: Oh yeah, he was there too. He went to.

Jason Lange: He's got. It was crazy. Yeah, yeah, fantastic.

Host: Okay, so the way to wrap up our conversation today, our final question. What's the one thing that you hope people take away from this conversation?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'm going to talk to the men here and I'm just going to say, guys, you don't have to suffer alone. Totally. Most of us men have been honestly just fed a spoonful of horseshit, and it makes your life a lot harder than it needs to be. In what I've seen time and time again is as men come into community, they become more powerful, more resilient, more able to bounce back against the stresses of life, and more pleasant to be around so you do not have to do it all alone.

Host: Fantastic. I can't imagine a better way of ending. Thank you Jason for your time today. It's been an absolute delight talking to you and as I end all of these podcasts, keep up the hard work.

Jason Lange: Thanks so much Christopher.

Host: You can learn more about [email protected] we are also streaming on Apple, Spotify, Spotify, Amazon, and YouTube. Thanks for listening and watching and we'll see you at the next episode of Illuminate.