I showed up on The Be Better Broadcast to talk about what healthy masculinity actually looks like and how we can cultivate it. We covered a lot of ground, starting with how the men's movement has evolved over the past few decades and why it's more needed than ever. Brandon and I dug into what I call the "man box," those old expectations that keep men trapped in roles that don't serve us anymore, especially now that the world has shifted so dramatically.
One of the core things we explored was my framework for healthy masculinity, the three foundational elements I work with men on. First is presence, being deeply grounded and connected to your body. Most men are rewarded for being disembodied, for pushing through, disconnecting from what we feel. That has to change if we want to show up as leaders in our relationships and our lives. Second is relational capacity, developing our heart space so we can actually feel our emotions and attune to the people around us without shutting down or numbing out. And third is cultivating deep and wide awareness, training ourselves to focus on what actually matters in any given moment instead of getting lost in distraction and reactivity.
We also talked about the importance of mentorship and men's groups. I shared my own journey into this work, how it started from my own pain around dating and relationships in my 20s, and how finding other men changed everything for me. You can't lead yourself somewhere deeper than you've ever been before on your own. You need other men who can reflect you, challenge you, give you feedback, and walk the path with you.
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Host: Foreign. This is the Be Better Broadcast, your show for new strategies, ideas, and philosophies that will elevate your life and career to the next level. I'm your host, Brandon Eastman. Through conversations with experts as well as my own studies and reflections, the Be Better Broadcast is designed to help you be better and better in every area of your life. Are you ready to be better? Let's rock and roll. Welcome to the Be Better Broadcast. Today we are joined by Jason Lange, all the way from California. And for those who don't know Jason. Jason Lange is a men's embodiment coach, a group facilitator, a Certified no more Mr. Nice Guy Coach, and an evolutionary guide. He helps men drop in and wake up to deeper clarity in their life's purpose and their relationships. Jason believes that every man should be in a men's group for the growth and the support opportunities that they provide. This is a very important conversation on a very dire topic that we need to talk about, because as Jason talks about all the time, what it means to be a man is. Is very different now than it ever has been. And it's so important that men, as Jason says, that men drop in and once again become what it is to be a man, which is what we're going to talk about today. When you take away even just one thing from this conversation with Jason and myself, all that we ask is please share this show with just one other person who could use it as well. You are the reason that we've grown the way that we have over the past three years, because you are the best part of the Be Better team. Without further ado, the man himself. Jason, great to have you on the show. Thanks for being here.
Jason Lange: So excited to be here. Thank you for having me.
Host: Absolutely. Hey, I love what you do, man. And I commend you for speaking on a topic that some people might look at and be like, you know, men's groups. What's the point in that? Why do you need to join a men's group? You know, why do we need to talk about what it means to be a man? Well, we're in very strange times, and I feel that it happened all of a sudden. Maybe I'm wrong. We can talk about that. But I feel like all of a sudden what it means to be a man has changed. You know, you've got grown men. This isn't judgment. It's just observation. You've got grown men who, like you said, they don't have a purpose. They don't know what they're doing. They're going job to job or no job, and they're not finding relationships anymore. They're not having children anymore. Men are turning into women. Like, it's a very strange world that we're living in, but there are role models and men out there who. Who are expressing what it is to be a man and sharing that. So I commend you for talking about this message because it's so important today, brother.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I'm super passionate about it and excited to dive in and just talk about some of what's going on and how we can best serve men.
Host: Yeah. So tell me what's going on. What does it mean now to be a man, and how has that changed? Like, has it been a recent thing, or if you look back, has this kind of been shifting throughout the years?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I'd say it's been a bit of a process. I mean, the men's movement that, you know, I'd say I'm part of men's work, men's groups, inner growth for men, whatnot. It started, you know, primarily kind of in the early 90s with Robert Bly, a big author, and some other guys who started bringing some attention here. But it really didn't catch fire until maybe about five years ago when I joined my first men's group in my mid-20s in, like, 2006. You know, nobody had heard of it. It was this really rare thing. I would explain it, and people be like, what is that? Totally different now. The movement is growing and much needed, in a sense, partly because, yeah, things are shifting. So, you know, in the late 50s and 60s, the Women's Liberation movement started, which is an awesome thing. And women were kind of liberated from the role of mother and caregiver and homemaker and allowed to have some choice as to, hey, what do you want to be? You can still be that if you want. You can also enter the workforce. Like, you have a lot more flexibility. And with that, a lot of women gained the capacity to financially take care of themselves, to lead themselves. And these are all extraordinarily positive things. With that, over the last couple years, our journey has started as men, where we're now confronted with, well, there's been a set of expectations for what a man is supposed to be. So we loosely call this in the work, the man box. Another way, pretty loaded way to talk about it, but I think it's very true that people don't often talk about is the patriarchy, and it actually impacts us men just as much as anything else. And some of the Elements of this right, are always be tough, never show weakness. Don't be emotional, push yourself, raise yourself up by your bootstraps. Men are your competition. There's. There's so many different things we absorb as guys from a pretty young age about what we're supposed to be and how we're cut you off.
Host: Are those bad things to, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, be tough, do what you need to do. Men are competition because I think about when we coexisted in small groups of people, 100 people in a big tribe, that was very much the values that wasn't. Were instilled in us for thousands and thousands and millions, potentially of years. And are we supposed to let those go by the wayside?
Jason Lange: Well, I'd argue that they weren't, primarily because to live in a group like that, you. You actually had to be relational. You could, you know, you couldn't. Like the, the great analogy for this, I work with a lot of men on is the lone wolf. Right. Most guys wear that as a badge of honor. Yeah, I'm a lone wolf. I don't need anyone. I. I get it all done. The truth is, in nature, the lone wolf is the wolf that was kicked out of their pack, and they do not survive as long as the wolves in the pack. So you know, how we lived for most of our, Our human history was relying on each other. So you didn't go out and hunt alone. You went out and hunted with a group of men. Right. And in that, something happened and you learned what it is to be a man from other men. Right. So there are actual rites of passages and practices and things that helped initiate a man into his manhood. One of the big differences, culturally, they've done some research between how we view women in men is when you ask, you know, a big cross set of the population, what makes a girl, what marks the transition of a girl into a woman? I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but this is where our culture is at. When you ask about what. What marks that transition for girls to women? People mostly say biological things. So her body developed, her cycle started, she became a woman, she has a.
Host: Child, she's a mother, but it's actually.
Jason Lange: Based on her physiology, mostly.
Host: Okay.
Jason Lange: Whereas you ask that same question about what makes a boy a man. Not based on his physiology. Yes, based on how's he showing up in the world, how's he handling himself, what's his sense of direction, how does he care for people around him? It's more of a Societal construction, because you can have, you know, and we talk about this all the time these days, you know, failure to launch a fully grown man, but who people still associated, sees a boy, right, and he's stuck in his mom's basement. Yeah, there's a lot of things we say about that kind of stuff right now. But point being, the. The it is. It's a different journey us men go on. And we're. And we have different criteria we're judged against. And part of what this work is so important is highlighting right now is we kind of need to blow up that criteria. It's not enough. So I like to think, rather than being a box that we're confined in, what's the structure, the platform we're standing on top of? And then we still get to choose how we want to show up in the world. But there's certain foundational elements, right, to what create healthy masculinity in the world. And I am certainly one who believes, you know, there's a lot of talk, and I think where a lot of men I work with are in pain is there's so much talk about what men shouldn't be. Toxic, masculine, so many examples of the very real damage that can cause in the world, but there's not a lot of talk about, well, then what should we be? What's the model? Right? What's the healthy version of this? And that leaves a lot of men in quite a bit of pain because they're like, I don't know how I'm supposed to be. What am I supposed to do? You know, I could be out there dating or in a relationship. And turns out my woman, she can take care of herself. She earns more money than me, she's more highly educated than me, and she's, you know, kicking ass, so to speak, in life. And part of what we're having to discover is guys. Okay, well, what's. What's beyond all that? If we're not just a role of a provider, what else can we bring to the world, to our relationships, to our intimacy? And that's really what, you know, men's work is on the forefront, I would say right now of helping men discover themselves at a deeper level in who they want to be. Not just based on this, the.
Host: These.
Jason Lange: These boxes, this man box of you have to be this or else and that. We can be so much more. We can be strong, we can be powerful, we can be leaders, and we can be deeply attuned. We can be sensitive, we can take care of our bodies. We can take care of other people in the process. And this is just a whole different way of approaching life as men these days that frankly can't come fast enough. Because, yeah, what I was going to circle back to there is just. I'm of the belief that what we need right now is not less masculinity in the world. We need more healthy masculinity in the world. And that's what can be in short supply. Women are, and I'm associating here, women in the feminine, but it's not always the case. But women in general are kicking ass and helping keep this planet afloat, frankly, and they need some help. And I think that's where men, we need to come back into our healthy, aligned power to support that and support them and keep this whole thing afloat, so to speak.
Host: Very interesting. Okay, so are there certain things that all men should be. So you mentioned that we must discover who we are deep inside. You call it the deeply attuned. And we must discover ourselves. Right. And discover what are our uniquenesses. What are the different ways that we can add value to our society, to our community? Are there constants that to be a man, is this like, what are the constants? Now frame it this way. There's a lot of boys out there and there's a lot of men, and age rarely has anything to do with it. And I come from a sales background, so I've trained over a thousand salespeople over the course of the last four or five years. And I've met a lot of boys. And you can almost immediately pick them out by the way they move, the way they talk, the words that they say. So what are the traits of a man that the boys are missing? What's up? Be Better Family. It's Brandon Eastman here. And as a thank you for tuning in to the Be Better Broadcast, I want to give you a very special gift. For a limited time, you can get a free, free digital copy of my book titled Be Extraordinary, your guide to self mastery. This book is packed with insights and actionable steps that will help you to unlock your fullest potential in the five key areas of your life. But that's not all. Along with the book, I also want to give you the audiobook version absolutely free. Imagine having the power to transform your life right at your fingertips and in your ears, anytime, anywhere. Go grab your copy@be betterindustries.com book. You'll also find the link in the episode show notes. Go and grab your copy and join me in making a positive Impact on the world. Now back to the show.
Jason Lange: Sure. So I. The way I work with men around this, like I said, is it's less about a box, but it's more about the foundation. So what's the foundation that allows a man to truly emerge in his own unique self? And I basically break it down to three kind of core components, the first of which is he's deeply connected, grounded, and in touch with his body. So we're actually embodied. We're in the moment. We're directly connected to our felt body experience. We're grounded, we're relaxed. We have a. As best we can, a balanced nervous system which allows us to actually be present. Such a huge edge for so many men and can be a challenge in our culture of technology and constant fast distractions and whatnot. But presence, right? This ability to be present in our bodies. I'm here, I'm breathing, connected to myself. I'm connected to what's happening in my body. That is kind of the most foundational component. And we actually have to train that as men. We have to train our nervous systems to be grounded, to be alert, to be resilient against stress, intention, so that we can consciously respond in the moment rather than unconsciously react. One of the big differences, I would say, between a boy and a man in the ways I talk about it.
Host: And that has to do with connection with body.
Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. Most, again, a lot of men. One of the challenges for us is historically, men are generally rewarded for being disembodied. So from being disconnected from our bodies, which, when you're disconnected from your body, you don't have many places to go other than to your head. So it's why men tend to think a lot and ruminate a lot. But from a young age, many boys are taught, stop crying. Right. Which literally is a message many, many boys get. Which, when you think about it, it's what you're feeling in your body is wrong. So ignore it. It's totally crazy how we teach men to not actually trust their impulses, their instincts, their bodily reactions. And then a lot of our culture as men, locker room culture, so to speak, again, encourages men to. To be tough, don't show weakness, always push through which. How do you do that? You disconnect, you get disembodied. And then our work, a lot of work in the world. Men do tend to work more dangerous jobs. Physically dangerous, environmentally dangerous, sometimes log more hours. How do we do that? We disconnect from our bodies. It's certainly changing here in the States, but you know, for a long time, the military was predominantly men. Men go off to war, often have to do really hard things. How do they do that? They disconnect from their bodies. And then now we're left with, you know, 50 years of baggage around that. And suicide rates for vets are through the roof. Through the roof. And nobody is. Well, not nobody, but there has been very little care for their inner world and their bodies on the other side.
Host: Yes.
Jason Lange: So getting men reconnected to our bodies is kind of number one. From there, what we can then do is what I call work on our relational capacity, our heart space, our ability to be, and this is a manly trait in my book, the way I define it, to be sensitive, to be deeply attuned to our inner world, our bodies, and the inner world of whoever we're interacting with. So to actually be open, and open means I can feel my feelings. I can feel your feelings, and I'm not afraid of them. So I don't turn away from them or numb them out. So many of us guys are not trained what to do with our emotions, which always start as sensations in our bodies. So another reason we often want to get out of our bodies is we don't want to feel.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And because we don't know what to do with these things, we turn towards things outside of ourselves to get rid of those feelings. So we turn towards booze, weed, porn and masturbation, video games, mindlessly scrolling social media, you name it. There's a whole list of things we can do that oftentimes are actually powered by, I don't know what to do with this emotion inside my body. I don't even know how to label it because no one's ever trained me to be aware of my inner experience. So I get a sense there's like a brick in my gut and it doesn't feel good. And so I'm going to do anything I can to not feel that. So kind of the level 2 here is once we're in our bodies, it's to open our bodies and allow those feelings to come up and move. And for us to responsibly know how to handle our emotions. Right. It's not our anger that's a problem, per se, for men, it's what we do with it. It's not our sexuality that's a problem as men, it's what we do with it. It's when we can't responsibly manage it that it becomes dangerous. But part of our responsibility as men, then is, well, I need to learn how to take care of these parts of myself and get into spaces where I can be trained. How do I handle my grief, my anger, my rage, my sadness, my fear, like you name it. But that's also what allows us to become deeply attuned to those around us. And when we're grounded and safe and feeling what's in our body and connected to it, others around us become more grounded and safe and will trust us more. It's one of the ways we can become a relational leader as well. And then just one last part here, the last kind of thing I work with men on, is so we have grounding in the body, opening to our. Our heart, our feelings, our relational capacity. And then there's learning to deepen and widen our awareness. So what are we paying attention to in any given moment? Most men have. Most boys, let's say, don't have control over their awareness. And so they're just going thought to thought or distraction to distraction and kind of reacting to life. So this is a type of mindfulness practice. But it's also connected into who am I, what do I want as a man, and where am I going or how am I going to get there? Right. Kind of a loose definition I give of purpose and knowing where our life is going and discovering that. So that in any given moment, I know or I have a sense of what's most important for me to be focusing on, whether that's in a conversation or whether that's in. I wake up and what do I need to do with my day? Because we're actually orienting towards depth. What's the most important thing to be paying attention to here? And that is one of the great masculine gifts, is moving the moment towards depth. So when a man has all three, he's grounded in his body, he's open in his heart. And when he's cultivated that deep and wide awareness, he becomes quite a force for good in the world and can actually step into his power, which I define as the ability to move towards what you want and the ability to support other people in doing the same. And we need a lot more of that from then, in my opinion.
Host: Yeah, no doubt. Yeah. Well said. By the way, going through each of those, I have tons of notes from that. I mean, that was masterful. That was great. So I want to dive into each one of those. But I want to ask you first, when you're observing somebody who is deeply grounded in their body and exhibits these traits, someone who doesn't know these three steps, what do they observe about someone who is deeply grounded and follows these three traits. What is outwardly observable?
Jason Lange: Yeah, what. What I would first say is my personal experience of this was I got lucky when I was, like, in my mid-20s, like I said, I. I got into some men's work and men's groups and saw some older men, some of whom became my mentors. And it was instant, like, literally seeing them walk through the room, talk to other men. I had a felt body experience of, oh, that's what I want to be when I grow up, so to speak. Like, when I get older, whatever's happening there, that's how I want to move. That's how I want to relate to people. That's how I want to feel. There was like an. I call it an instant transmission. And I think that's a big part of what's missing in our culture right now as a lot of the rites of passage stuff, a lot of boys hanging out with men, like, most of that has just completely fallen apart. So many, many men, you know, are raised without a strong masculine role model or guide around them, and it's pretty hard to get all of that. Even if you have a great dad, it's pretty hard to get that all from one person. You, you know, back in the more tribal days, right, you knew your uncles, you knew people around your tribe. Like, there were many different men present in your life, and we could get a little piece of wisdom from each of them. And so there's kind of an instant record, instant embodied recognition, I would say, of. Sometimes we're just around someone and we're like, wow, this guy has presence. I want to be around him more. Is often the feeling, right? He's relaxed. He doesn't feel wound up. There's. There's often, like, a level of humor there. You know, he's not too constricted or tight as so many men of us men get. He can make fun of himself. He's well spoken. But most of all, yeah, he's breathing deeply. And I just get the sense he's here. So when he talks to me, I feel like, wow, someone's actually paying attention. His attention is more on me than it is on his own inner thoughts. Yeah, the struggle for so many men. So you can just. You get that sense of. There's. There's a depth, a stillness in a presence to men who are grounded and embodied in this way that you can't fake. And you'll often hear this, right? And some people, you know, some of your listeners maybe have experienced this One of the places we do still tend to see this is in people who have practiced a lot of martial arts. Right. Or just, wow, I feel safer around this person.
Host: Yes.
Jason Lange: I can just feel like I feel safer around this person. And it's far less than, wow, they know all these fancy moves. It's far more. They're grounded and relaxed in their body.
Host: Yes.
Jason Lange: Right. They're just here, they're relaxed, they're not overly stressed, they're not wasting energy in places they don't need to. And they're available to the moment.
Host: And they have that relational capacity of rolling with all the other men in the room and women who also do martial arts. And they. When you're rolling with people like that all day long, you're reading people's bodies, you're reading everything about them, and you become more connected as a result. And going to your, your third step, deepen and widen awareness. What are you aware of when you're rolling with someone? When you're practicing a martial art? The moment that you're in, you're not thinking about what you're having for dinner. You're not scrolling through social media when you're pinned in a headlock. Like, it's very interesting how martial arts, in a way embodies all three of those things totally naturally.
Jason Lange: Yeah. Well, you're right. In that moment, you're aware of your body, what's happening in it. Are you tensing up? Is there anywhere you don't need to be? You're aware of who you're rolling with, their body, what's going on from them. You're accessing this index of all your training so that. Okay, what's the most important thing for me to do here? Oh, it's probably to get control in this way. So that's what I'm going to move towards. Right. So again, the mind is orienting towards depth in that moment. Like, what's the most important thing for me to do? And if I can stay focused on that. Right. I have a good chance of getting out of the situation, so to speak. But that shows up in all kinds of places. That shows up when we're relating to someone we're attracted to.
Host: Right.
Host: Yes, it is. And you talk about joining that men's group and being there and watching them interact with each other and just being able to. You mentioned instant transmission, which I thought was very interesting phrase specifically for you to say. But you just know. You have a knowingness of, oh, yeah, that's what it is. That's who I want to be. Like, that's how I want to interact with people. And still to this day, you know, it's one thing to go up to somebody and shake their hand and say, nice to meet you. Sometimes you go up and shake someone's hand and you're like, whoa, this person is here with me right now. And just for the. For the record, I've interacted With women like that, too, where you shake their hand and you're like, this person is in tune with. With what is going on right now in this moment. And I love that you gave that example because I know you have your own journey that you talk about for when you discovered these principles. And I want to talk about that journey, but you made me think of my own. When I was in my early 20s, I was overweight. I was 260 pounds. Now I'm 180. To give you an example. I was thousands of dollars in debt. I was never taught how to manage my finances. But I was impulsive. I was not aware of what I was doing. I was just making decision. So I wasn't grounded in my body. I did not have relational capacity, and I certainly was not aware in the moment. And I was very unhappy, very unhappy. I'd play video games. I was doing very well in sales, but that's the only thing that was good for me. And I would just spend countless hours just not doing the things I should have been doing right. But I didn't know what to be doing until I met my mentor. And he was very much one of those people where you watch him interact with people, and he was out there like, he was very different. He's a unique personality, but he embodied all three of those things. He was fit. He interacted with people with love and grace and presence, and he was very much aware of what was going on, and he's only grown in those capacities. And I was like, wow, like, I want to learn from that guy. And he gave me some tough love. He gave me tough advice. And for the next year or two, he took me under his wing, brought me to the gym with him, helped me become grounded in my body. He taught me how to speak to people. When I first became a leader in the company, I would write an email to him that I was going to send to the whole team of 60 people. And he's like, no, don't send that email. He'd call me and say, let's go through this line by line and figure out how this needs to be changed in order to get a better response. And the whole email was changed. And then people even said to me, wow, you know, that email you sent was very different than ones you normally send. And I obviously, I didn't tell them he wrote it. I was like, oh, thank you. Yeah, I'm working to improve. So he slowly but surely helped me in the same way that you mentioned you observed those other people helped you. So that's Very fascinating. I never thought about it from a man perspective. I always thought about it simply from a mentor perspective. But I feel that those two things go hand in hand.
Jason Lange: Totally, yeah. Good mentorship, I mean, right? It's right there in the word, you know, I don't know the etymology.
Host: Wow.
Jason Lange: Mentor.
Host: Wow.
Jason Lange: Right? To bring towards depth. And we. That's how the masculine, you know, whether you're a man or a woman or anything between, we all have a masculine and feminine side. You can call them whatever you want. Lead and follow, go and flow. Alpha and omega in masculine and feminine. But our masculine, right inside of us, that's the part that guides towards depth, that brings things towards depth, like I was saying. And we need to be taught that, right? We actually have to be taught that in a process like you received in, in particular, the masculine grows through feedback and challenge, right? That's how that part of us grows. Hey, here's what worked, here's what didn't. Try this again. You know, it's kind of the traditional idea of like coaching, even just for sports. We get feedback and they help guide us to better performance. But that happens in life too, right? And we need that structure. And mentorship is something that used to be way more available in the culture, particularly in trades, right? You would. You would study under someone who would teach you a craft and they would help you move more towards expertise and depth. And a lot of that's just gone. You know, you have to find these types of relationships often on your own, if you're lucky. But they can be life changing because so many men want more depth but don't know how to get there. And this is, this is one of the tricky things of. It's oftentimes hard to lead yourself somewhere deeper than you've ever been before. That's why we need mentorship and guides and coaches and therapists and elders, so to speak, who can walk the path with us. And it's one of the main reasons I really promote men's work in men's groups, because that's one place where you can get exposed to other men who are deeper in certain areas, even if they're peers. What you discover is, wow, my buddy here, he can teach me anything in the world about finance. He doesn't know anything about relationships. My friend over here, he's a master at relationships. But, yeah, he's not so great in the fitness or whatever. But through the group itself, we kind of construct the perfect mentor because we get these bits and pieces from all the men around us. Who can support us in the different ways we need.
Host: Yeah, that's so valuable. So how did you find your first men's group? What's your story of how you started this journey? Why did you join a men's group? And the reason I ask you that is because, and I'll admit it, when I was late 20, I'm 30 now, but when I was 26, 27, I hung out with people, my leaders at the time who always went to men's groups, and they even invited me a couple times. And. And I was like. And I went home to my wife, and I was like, you know, I don't want to join a man's group. Like, what's a men's group? What are these guys going out there and doing? Like, this is. It just seems weird to me. Is it like, hoorah around the campfire like, you're a man, I'm a man. Like, I looked at it in a. I. I had no, zero understanding of them. And still to this day, I have very little understanding of what actually goes down. You just shed some light on that, but maybe you can give us a better, a better look. Why did you join a man's group? And where did your story begin? Begin there?
Jason Lange: Yeah. I mean, my journey towards men's groups really, just as it does for a lot of men, started in my own pain. So I was raised in kind of a lower middle class, pretty solid, you know, western American, I'm a white man, had a lot of great things going for me, had my basic survival needs met. But my family, no fault of their own, just through how they were raised and whatnot, did not have the capacity for emotion or connection or real presence. In some ways, we kind of just lived in the same house, and my parents took care of me, but there was never anything, any talking about what was really going on. There was not much touch or intimacy, which, you know, I learned to survive as a kid. But then, lo and behold, I become a teenager and my hormones start flowing and I'm suddenly very attracted to the opposite sex. And I had no idea, literally how to start a conversation. And my body would get all, you know, awkward and anxious whenever I was around a woman. And that was very painful for, you know, my teens and into my mid-20s. Really. I had no idea. I was just like, I don't. I came to this realization, there's gotta be a better way to live than this, because this doesn't feel good. I see other people having these experiences in a way that looks much more easeful than what I'm experiencing. So what's going on inside me? And that kicked off my kind of journey. First it was into philosophy, and then that led me into, you know, therapy. And then I got lucky. I was living in Colorado at the time, and it was in a community of people that were interested in transformation. And some of them, some of the guys I was with were like, let's start a men's group. And there was a mentor, right? A man who had done it before, who was like, yeah, I'll guide you guys. And so he led us for two years to kind of kick things off. And that got me into my first men's weekends, my first men's workshops and retreats, where I started to see these elders and mentors and got a quick download of like, oh, yeah, okay, there is a way forward here, and I don't have to be stuck in this. And then that group helped me navigate some extremely huge life transformations. Right. And challenges. I was, at the time I wanted to pursue filmmaking, I was living in Colorado, and they really helped push me of like, hey, if you want to do this, why are you here? Like, why are you here? And that led me to kind of uproot my whole life and move out to LA and get into the film industry for many years, which was an amazing experience. And then when I was out here, you know, I took like two years off. And then pretty quickly it was like, wow, I'm. I am missing it. I am missing having that connection. So I found two guys locally and was like, hey, I want to start a group. And they were like, great. And then that grew pretty fast. And I've been with those men for a decade now, and we meet every other week here in la and I'm part of some other groups as well. But it's been, out of all the work I've done, it's been the most consistent and it's been the most life changing. In that it's a group of men who know me, know what I want, and check in with me regularly. Are how on point are you feeling in life right now? If you don't feel on point, where are you in pain, how are you suffering, and what can we do about it? And through that, you know, I've just kept growing married, had a kid, launched a new business. So many transformations and gotten a lot of camaraderie. Right. You know, certainly as a new parent, you know, I think you understand, like, time becomes very precious. Yeah. And for me, there's, you know, men's group it has a level of efficiency to it where, you know, I got seven other guys in this group, and with my life right now in a big city like this, I could not see them all. And every two weeks, there's just no way I could do one on one time with all them. Yeah, but so group has allowed me to keep up with these seven men very deeply, seeing them twice a month like clockwork, and in that time, going very deep. So we're not just staying kind of at the shallow surface, which there's a time and place and, you know, fun recreation and whatnot. But where a lot of men end up feeling lonely in life is most men are trained to connect to other men through triangulation. So you and me are paying attention to a third thing. So it's like a triangle. I'm here, you're here, and we're paying attention to this thing over here. Sports game, talking about movies, talking about things. Right. So our connection actually comes from talking or putting our attention on this third thing. And, you know, like I said, there can be a time and place for that. But what that misses is usually the inner world of each other, the actual relational self of, wow, here's what's going on for me. And it's hard. You know, I'll work with guys who will come in and, you know, do a men's group with me, and they'll be like, wow, I haven't, you know, I've gone deeper with you guys than I've gone deeper with my best friends in 20 years. Just because, you know, we kind of stay on the surface. We talk about culture, but men's group helps you go deeper. So men's group shifts that attention to each other. Hey, while we're here, our attention is going to be on each other. What is happening for you in this moment in your body, in your life? Where are you thriving? Where are you not thriving? What do you want to be moving towards and how are we going to get you there? Right. And that capacity to track that over time is so valuable for. For men like it. It's quite transformational of while someone's paying attention to me and. And if I say I'm going to do something, I have somewhere to come back to, and they're going to check in with me, like, hey, you've been saying you wanted to switch jobs, and it's been eight months now. Like, why is that not happening? Right? And that's where some of that friendly challenge and accountability can come in, where it's like, well, actually, I'M afraid X, Y or Z. Da, da, da. So I need to do X. Well, okay, why don't you go do X so then you can come back and do this. And I've seen men's lives, including my own, just drastically change. And in terms of. Yeah, what happens in a group, you know, men's groups, in a sense, is as loose a term as meditation. Like, hey, go meditate. Well, there's like a thousand ways to meditate. There's different practices, different orientations, and men's groups are the same. There's different groups for different things. Some are more accountability based. Some are more presence and kind of shadow work based. Some are more camaraderie. Some are more practice based of like, let's get together and, you know, we're going to do embodiment practices. A good group, you know, kind of blends a little bit of all of them. But again, it's about getting real and going deep and stepping forward with your inner experience and learning that actually in. In my mind, you know, real men, brave men, they feel everything. As I say, real men feel everything. Who's more afraid? The man who's terrified of his emotions and so toughens up and pretends like they're not there, or the man who knows how to go right into them. Today I'm feeling sad. My heart's broken because X, Y or Z. And the tears come, but he's still there. He's still grounded. He's not collapsed. He's not overreacting. In a sense. He's just allowing it through. And then, lo and behold, you allow it through. You're actually available to handle life more on the other side. And, you know, just to close this off here, because it's on my head, the. The emotional piece, why this is such a big deal for us men. Again, we're trained out of our bodies and out of emotions from a young age, is, if you think about it, anytime you stop yourself from feeling an emotion, like if you imagine like a young kid, and I'm like, he's bawling. And I'm like, stop crying. You know, this happens. What you'll see that kid do, boy or girl, is they tighten up their body, they stop breathing. They literally stop the emotion. They hold it in their body. Yeah. And, you know, the platitude we often use is emotion, energy in motion. Emotions are supposed to be energy that moves through us, that cause us to react to our environment.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Or our moment. And so when we stop feeling, we tighten that and hold that in our Bodies. And that rigidity catches up with us as men, particularly as we get into our mid to late 30s and 40s, our bodies aren't just full of this instant level of energy and chi. And men start to get depressed, they start to have autoimmune issues. They don't feel engaged with life. They get, you know, they have joint problems, they have digestive issues. So many things that aren't solely caused by, you know, not processing our emotions, but are heavily influenced by them. And one of the great joys I have in some of the in person work I do with men is when we do some deep emotional work or shadow work and a man gets to move or feel something that sometimes for men, literally, I kid you not, they have been carrying for decades, decades, and it's allowed to come through and they're expressed. Their whole body transforms, face softens, voice deepens, breath gets more relaxed in a level of energy comes back online of literal life force that they have been missing. It takes energy to hold pain. I think this is what a lot of guys don't realize. It takes energy to hold pain. And that's energy that's not available for us to create the things we want to create in our life. So as we get into groups and learn how to navigate into our pain, literally turn towards it, it frees up so much vitality for us to then do more of the things we want to do in life and actually enjoy ourselves in the process.
Host: Yes.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: That reminds me of the book by Gabor Mate, the body keeps the score, right? We repress these emotions. We were told to stop crying, stop doing this. We tense our body and then our body stores the emotion and it's repressed and it's there and then it comes out in unpredictable ways or maybe even predictable ways in some senses. But yeah, I love everything about how you described what a men's group is. And now I'm like, I need to join a men's group. This sounds really awesome. And I want to ask you about, you know, what you do and what your business looks like in organizing men's groups and retreats, because I know you do a lot of that and I want to ask you that first. And then I want to go through a rapid fire of each of those three tenets we can call them of being a man, and ask how we can be more grounded in our body, in our relational capacity, and in deepening our awareness. So maybe we'll do a quick rapid fire to give some immediate things we can do in order to improve in one of those three things. But tell me about the business that you have now. Tell me about how you organize men's groups, how you can help people join one. Like what? What do you do?
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. So I've been working in this particular vein since 2018.
Host: And.
Jason Lange: And, you know, my business is always growing and evolving, but in essence, it is kind of settling into helping men create and join men's groups of different kinds, some of which I lead, some of which I'm training men to lead now. And so one of the biggest areas that I work, and I've been working for a long time is one of the tricks to this work is right, how do you get a man to change who doesn't want to change or who isn't ready? And the truth is, you can't. So that's the bad news. But there are certain things that happen to men that will often wake them up and make them more predisposed to. I gotta change here. Lo and behold, from my background in history, it was pain around relating and getting the intimate relationship I wanted. For many men, whether that's divorce or getting dumped or just not having the types of experiences they want, it's one of the things that one of the only things I found is painful enough for a man to actually get up off the couch and ask for help. Like, I need help. I want this to be different. It hurts. So one of my flagship programs is around helping men learn how to become leaders in intimate relationships. So how to cultivate this healthy masculine so they can show up and be a new type of leader in their relationship. Which, again, isn't just about providing money, but is actually way more these days about being fully present. Right. That's often what the feminine is just yearning for in us men. So I have one program that's kind of a hybrid of a coaching program, a training, and a men's group, because it's in the men's group where men get to relate to other guys and realize, oh, my God, all these things I thought were uniquely wrong and bad and shameful or broken about me, there's tons of other men who are experiencing the same thing, right? And in a way, I'm not special. It's like a. It's a good feeling for men. It's like, oh, okay, there's lots of other men struggling at this, and there's lots of other men making changes. So that container, you know, we've worked with hundreds of guys at this point and help men, you know, have their first intimate experiences, get married. Change careers like it. It all happens pretty fast. Because what I've, what I found, what's particularly potent about that is oftentimes there's a correlation between what is being called for from us in terms of becoming a relational leader in intimacy, and what's being called for from us in our professional work. And as one changes, the other will often change really fast. So if I make some huge shifts in my dating or my marriage, I'll start to show up differently in my work pretty quickly. And people will notice because again, they're both kind of fueled by this deeper presence. And when, when a man is present and grounded, people trust him more and frankly will pay him more money. The great undiscovered gift of, of the work. So I do that. And that's mostly virtual, so guys can join, you know, from all over the planet, frankly, because a lot of men live in areas where they don't have access to geographically close men's work or men's groups yet. It is spreading and it is great when you can get that, but many men just don't have access to that. And then the other big men's group I'm running right now is twice a year I run what's called a shadow work based men's group. And that's kind of a hybrid of a virtual event with a live retreat in the middle. And that's where we go super deep into all of that emotional pain and trauma and holding that so many men have been cut off for since they were babies or adolescents, frankly, like young kids, experiences they had that are deeply formative for them that they often don't even realize. Wow, that time I experienced X, Y or Z, my body is still in a state of shock from that. And I've been protecting against that in every single interaction, you know, I've had with another man or another woman or whatever that might be. So the shadow work group is where we go really deep. Like go to the place that scares you the most in your body, essentially that's where we go, but you're held in the process. And that's where we quickly discover how much power is actually available to us. And like I said, vitality on the other side. And it's in the process of that group we strongly encourage, we basically teach those groups how to then manage themselves so they can continue on past the formal part of the program. And, and so it's basically a way to join a group to, to create your own men's group. Because we go so deep in those that the bonds Are frankly generated. That, that are generated are just tremendous. Like, there's a, there's a sense of, you know, one of the things that used to bond us as men is going off and doing challenging things together.
Host: Yeah, right.
Jason Lange: Whether that's the hunt, whether that's war, whether that's building, whatever that might be. True. And that's kind of gone in culture. But what's available to us now is to do those challenging things, but in the inner world, the inner frontier, and to actually, okay, I'm going to go slay the dragon of my subconscious. And when we do that as a group of men, you come out and you're like, these are my brothers. They have literally seen me go somewhere I never thought I could go before. And I trust them with my life now. Like, I've seen that multiple times. And so that program, yeah, you come out with a men's group essentially, and then we help you kind of keep, keep the fire alive, moving forward. And then I do some live retreats. I do a live retreat every Labor Day, which is the. Okay, if you want to have that instant transmission and just get the felt body experience, get in a room with guys and that, you can just drop in and have that experience. And we do a lot of deep, deep embodiment work. Getting into our bodies, opening our bodies up, getting access to our energy, to our vitality, getting a sense of that purpose and direction in our lives, which is so key. And then, yeah, I do one on work, one work with guys, which, you know, I'll work with anyone. But frankly, the, my predisposition is to get men into groups because the transformation I just see is so much faster. It's so much faster. My preferred place to facilitate is actually in a group, but I'll work with guys one on one. And that's kind of where I'm at so far. You know, I do one off events and online like connection events and stuff like that for guys as well. But I'm growing that. And then the, the, the next thing that'll be coming this year is more of just kind of a, a boiler plate how to start a men's group program. So if you're like, wow, okay, I want to do this, I feel like I have a couple buddies in my area maybe. But like, how, what's the structure? How do we actually make this happen and ensure that it doesn't just float to that surface level of kind of complaining about our lives or talking about video games or politics that, you know, we just gravitate to often as Men if left to our own devices. So it'll be a structure for how to actually create depth in a group.
Host: Yeah, that's beautiful. That's fantastic what you've created. And for anyone listening who's like, wow, that sounds amazing. Whether you have a men's group in your area or not, check this out. Jason's website is evolutionary.men. evolutionary.men, which is really cool website name, by the way. That's.
Jason Lange: That's really cool.
Host: Did you customize the Dot Men part or was that like an option that was given to you?
Jason Lange: It had just launched that, that. What do they call that? Top level domain.
Host: Okay.
Jason Lange: Just launched in 2018. When I was looking around, I was like, oh, wow, that is awesome. That is, yeah, perfect brand for me. So that was meant to be. Yeah, cool.
Host: So Evolutionary Men to check out the retreats, the men's groups that Jason organizes. And rather than go rapid fire, I'll ask you this. When you take a look at your three, we'll call them tenets, right? Number one, deeply connected with the body. Number two, relational capacity. Number three, deepen and widen your awareness. When you look at those three things. If you had one minute with a boy, a man, it doesn't matter. And they're like, jason, how can I be a better man? But you've only got 60 seconds to tell me. You don't know anything about this person. You can only tell them based on what you've experienced. Many people do. They're going to go off and do this and they'll see a positive result. What direction would you lead that person and what advice would you give?
Jason Lange: Create a daily embodiment practice. So an actual practice that gets you into your body every day, that could be working out. That could be Qigong, that could be Tai Chi, that could be Kundalini Yoga. There's so many different options there. But you want to commit to a practice that regularly gets you into your body for, for, for that first part there. Then for the relational capacity for most men, I'd suggest you need to work with someone who can guide you deeper into your felt body experience. So you need to work with someone who can hold the space and structure for you to, to actually help you get in contact with the emotional content of your body and learn how to label it. We call this interoception. Right? There's perception, which is awareness of what's out there. Interoception is awareness of what's happening inside of me. The more you're aware of what's happening inside of you, Ooh, yeah. I'm feeling a little tightness in my gut. My shoulders are a little hot there. I'm feeling angry, and I'm feeling upset right now. The more trustable you can become in relationship and the more you can lead frankly. And then for the deep and wide awareness, it's, you got to start some kind of mindfulness practice. So meditation really is the kind of go to there of learning that most of what your mind generates is garbage. Literally. We call it monkey mind. Right. It's like monkeys sitting at a typewriter. They just yammering stuff out and. And most of it is garbage. And learning to just notice that, wow, there's a steady stream of garbage going through my head, that if I'm not careful, I'm going to identify with that rather than, can I hold the space larger than that? And when I can hold the space larger than that, suddenly I have choice of, ooh, do I want to pay attention to that garbage or do I want to focus on this? Boom, there we go. So when you can do all three daily embodiment practice, work with someone, a coach, a therapist, an older mentor who can guide you deeper into your felt body and emotional experience, and then start some kind of mindfulness practice, you're on a great trajectory. And honestly, you're, like, farther than 99% of men in the world already.
Host: Awesome. Yeah. You went rapid fire anyway, which is great. This has been an awesome conversation. You are very well spoken in explaining these deep concepts, and I'm. I did not expect it. I didn't really know because I've spoken to a couple people on the show about what it means to be a man, and they've both been great conversations as well. But this took that to a deeper level, I feel, and I think that this deeper level is necessary for people to hear and listen to, especially our audience who love the last episodes. They're going to love this one, too, too. And I really appreciate you, Jason. I appreciate what you're doing, and again, I commend you for the work you're doing and the time you're investing when you've got your little girl at home and your relationships and the life that you're building. So thank you very much, brother. This has been an amazing time together.
Jason Lange: Oh, yeah. Thanks so much for hosting me and asking such great questions. It's been a pleasure.
Host: Thank you, sir. You heard it. To go check out what Jason's up to. He's got his men's groups, he's got his retreats, he's got his programs, training, he does a lot of different things. So if any of those things piqued your interest, go to Evolutionary Men to check out what he offers to see what you can join. If you've got men's groups near you, join a group. I think joining a group in general is beneficial, whether it's Toastmasters or Alliance Club or something in your community. But the intentionality behind joining a group of like minded, not even like minded, but joining a group of men who can help you become a better man to become a role model for you so that you can then become a role model for someone else. That's a beautiful thing. And Jason has equipped you with the knowledge now for you to go out there and make that happen for yourself again. Evolutionary Men to check out Jason's website. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Be sure to share this show with just one other person if it helped you so that it can help them as well. And thank you for being the best part of the Be Better team. Until we talk again next time, continue to be better.
