What if I told you that joining a men's group could be as powerful for your health as quitting smoking? I had a fascinating conversation on Healing and Growing, Hand in Hand with Lisa recently about men, isolation, and the transformative power of men's groups, and the research we explored will challenge everything you think you know about what it means to be strong as a man.
First, the research on loneliness is sobering. Being isolated can impact your lifespan as much as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day or being morbidly obese. And just being part of a group that meets regularly can decrease your chance of dying by up to 50% in the next year. That's a massive intervention. We're social creatures, and men in particular tend to be conditioned out of relational connection from a young age.
We talked about what I call the "man box," this narrow set of expectations that tell boys and men to ignore their bodies, suppress their emotions, and never show weakness. From elementary school where we're told to sit still, to locker room culture where vulnerability gets weaponized, to the workforce where we're rewarded for pushing through pain, men are taught to dissociate from what they're actually feeling. And that catches up. Usually in our 40s and 50s, the body starts demanding payment for all that holding, all that tension we've been carrying.
What I see transform men is finally having a space where all that conditioning gets interrupted. A men's group where you can look another man in the eye and grieve, feel your fear, even express anger cleanly and safely. When one man steps in vulnerably, it creates what we call the masculine vortex. Other men see it and think, "Oh, there's a different way to be here." And suddenly there's this huge release of grief, anger, fear, stories that have been held for 20, 30, 40 years. Men walk out with relaxed bodies, deeper breath, more vitality in their eyes.
Lisa asked how we get men to show up, and honestly, it usually takes pain. A relationship ending, an illness, crushing loneliness. But podcasts like hers help plant seeds. Men listen, questions start forming, and when they hit that edge, they remember there's a path forward.
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Host: We are committed to creating a safe and supportive space for our guests and listeners and to provide information and tools that will help our listeners understand, manage and overcome trauma. We understand that the healing journey can bring up challenging emotions. Therefore, we want to warn our audience that certain episodes may contain discussions or stories that could be triggering for some individuals. The content of the podcast is for educational and informative purposes only, and we encourage you to practice self care and discretion while listening and to reach out to a trusted support system or professional if you feel overwhelmed and need help on your healing journey. Hello and welcome back to Healing and Growing Hand in Hand podcast. I'm your host, Lisa Tickle. And our guest today is Jason Lange. And a couple of things that we're going to be talking about is, and I am excited about this conversation because I think we need more of this out there, but we're going to be talking about men's mental health and this is really cool. So how powerful a community is in a men's group for healing and thriving in the world. So we were just having a conversation before we started recording about all of this and so I want to welcome you, Jason. Thank you for being here today and thank you for taking this task on because we need more of you. We definitely need more of you in this world.
Jason Lange: Oh, thank you so much for having me, Lisa. And yeah, part of honestly, why I'm so inspired to take this task on, so to speak, is it's what's changed my life. So I'm trying to just give back many of the gifts that I was given and got lucky, honestly to come across. And, yeah, wouldn't be where I am in my family, in my life, my career, without the support and connection of in the ways we're going to be talking about.
Host: And it's, it's so different for men. I know. I mean, I'm a woman. I know, I know we have our challenges in connecting, but I know it's, it's the. There's just such a different situation for men. And I pulled some statistics. I don't know if this is right because this is current, really. This is from 2021, but they took a survey and 50% of the men in the US report feeling lonely, as opposed to 59 for women. So they're almost even, which really surprised me. Really surprised me.
Jason Lange: Yeah. Yeah. There's quite a few stats that are pretty alarming when it comes to men in terms of isolation and some things. We were talking about a move to kind of work from home, the deconstruction of a lot of our social ties through different types of organizations and just places. I think about this often now in a way you just couldn't even 20 years ago could just sit in your house and order your whole life over Amazon and everything gets delivered to your door. And. And you can live a life of isolation in a way that functionally was not possible in how we had to really experience the world. And I think men in particular, this is hitting everyone, men and women, but I think men in particular are very vulnerable because a lot of us are kind of conditioned out of the gate to be less relational. So even in Covid and types of, types of times of isolation, you know, my wife would have chains going, you know, connecting with other women, relating through text or through messages, like just kind of like a breath or a heartbeat, just part of being alive. And I can tell you, going through the pandemic, there were many men I worked with that if they weren't on a call with me or one of my groups or something I was doing, they were alone. Like they didn't really have anyone in their life. And that has serious implications for our health and well being as men. On just one, the physical level. Right. Some of the same research that you were drawing from, just loneliness can be just as serious a condition in terms of impacting our longevity as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day or being morbidly obese. Like, it can actually decrease your lifespan by quite a bit. You know, there's, there's this other piece of research I saw that really ties into the group thing. Again, it's not specific to men's groups necessarily. We'll get into that. But just being part of a group, just being part of a group or community that meets regularly can decrease your chance of dying by up to 50% in the next year. Like, it is a huge intervention, huge intervention to be connected in some kind of capacity. And so I, I focus, you know, on men's groups in particular. But there's different ways this can show up. But I think men's groups just tend to actually hold a lot of the gifts all at once.
Host: Yeah. God, that's frightening. That is a huge number. That is huge.
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. And you know, I think men as well, you know, again, there's a lot of similarity here. There's just being human. But I think men in particular that I know of will often deal with their loneliness and isolation, particularly turning to different kinds of addictions, be it alcohol, weed, porn and masturbation, or even just overworking. You know, I'M just going to keep working. Never stop. Keep working. Never stop. As a way to stay away from that emotional content. Most of us men are just never trained or taught how to identify and be with in any meaningful way. That absolutely catches up to us, particularly as we age.
Host: Well. And it makes sense that, you know, the loneliness affects your mental health, which then will affect your physical health. That. That completely makes sense. It all is interconnected, you know, so.
Jason Lange: Yeah, you can't really separate them.
Host: No, no, no. And. And I know for men, too, like you said, we have not raised men to show the proper emotion. The only emotion they're allowed to show is anger. Right. Other than that, they're not allowed to show those emotions. And that's. You know, I. One time I had a counselor say to me, and this was it, you know what? I knew it to be true. But once he said it was like, wow. He said that, you know, men and women have the same emotions. We have the same emotions. We feel this. You know, we feel these emotions. You know, it's just men aren't allowed to express all those other emotions, which. Yeah. And I know for my own experience what that's like to withhold those emotions and what that does for me. And my dynamic is a little different than a man's.
Jason Lange: Totally. And you know, again, this will show up in. In anyone, but I really do see it in men particular. I do live events sometimes and live retreats and workshops. And sometimes I'll come across. Men will come to me that, you know, are more in their like 60s or 70s.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And are just. Are just getting to this kind of work then. And their bodies have often taken the shape of all their holding.
Host: Yep.
Jason Lange: That all they've held their whole life. And there's misalignments and tightness and it's pretty wild. And to see that start to relax and release is, you know, one of the great gifts of. Of doing the work in some profound ways. And that. That patterning, that conditioning you. You just mentioned, Lisa, I didn't come up with this term, but I often use it. This man named Tony Porter and some other kind of male coaches in community organization organizers in the Bay back in the, I think like late 90s, early 2000s, coined this term the man box. Right. Which is basically this idea that there's a narrow range, a narrow box, men are expected to fit in. And if we don't fit in that we're not a man, we're not a real man. And so you can also think of it as just like A checklist. If these things are true, you're considered a man. If they're not true, you're not considered a man. What's really interesting about that, to tie in some research around that is there was this kind of poll research done. I can't remember the exact person right now, but super fascinating. They queried both men and women. So men and women here. And they asked him just a very simple question. What denotes the transition of a girl into a woman? And what denotes the transition of a boy into a man? And I'm not, I'm not saying this is the right answer, but particularly in the west, culturally, what came back from both men and women was for a girl, her transition to womanhood came from biology. She started her menstrual cycle, her body transformed, she actually became a woman in her physiology. The same did not hold true for men, where all the markers were social markers. It's how he shows up in his community. What kind of integrity does he hold? What kind of action does he take in life? What kind of responsibility does he hold? It did not have to do with physiology. Meaning we can, you know, this man box is you can be a fully mature man in your biology but still be considered a boy. And you know, I think there is some presence in our culture of this we're seeing now of some men who have failed to launch, so to speak, you know, are still kind of living in that more at home space, not really having a lot of agency in their life. And there's all kinds of reasons for that. But again, it just kind of points to that for manhood in particular, there's these ideas that for better or worse, our cultures, our religions, our families start to condition boys with from a young age. One of the most simple is don't show weakness, don't be vulnerable, don't cry, right? Many, many, many men I've worked with, you know, heard those, heard the words, stop crying, you'll be fine, just toughen up, it's okay, get back at it. And you know, there's a, there's a healthy version of that right there. There can be, sure. But that along with, we start to hit elementary school and you know, there's some pretty strong research. Again, just it would happen with girls too if you put enough testosterone in them. But when you hormonal balance, your body needs to move like your body, there's a kinesthetic need for movement. For a lot of young boys that has kind of been eradicated from mainstream schooling. And so we're already getting that message don't cry, be tough. You know, Then we get into school and we're told, don't move. Yeah, don't move still, stay still, sit still, don't move. Then we get into middle school and in high school where kind of the locker room culture comes up and boys start to get very competitive. Who's maturing first, who's having sex first? Again, you show any vulnerability, often it's actually used against you, weaponized against you. Bullying happens. So we learn, oh, I got to play my cards super close to the chest here so I can fit in and conform. And then it continues. We get out into the workforce where, you know, and this is changing, but traditionally it's changed a lot in the last decades. But traditionally war and being a soldier was the task of a man, like, go off, do horrible things, and your body, you may not even come back. And we rewarded men for that. Right?
Host: The trauma they went through, holy cow.
Jason Lange: I see it every day.
Host: That's a whole other conversation, right?
Jason Lange: Yes. And then just this idea that, you know, work harder, work more, 80 hour weeks, just keep pushing, keep pushing, keep pushing pressure, which is part of kind of our, particularly here in the States, this, you know, always make more money kind of capitalist thing. But the, the point is, from all kinds of angles, men. Part of what makes this man box from a young age, Lisa, is from a young age, boys and men are taught to ignore and dissociate from our bodies, which is actually where emotion starts as well. So if we're taught not to be in our body, we're also taught to not be in our heart emotionally. And not only that are we discouraged from it. In a lot of ways, we're rewarded for it. We make more money. We're celebrated as extreme athletes that maybe will have brain damage later in our life. Whatever these different things are, we are actually encouraged and often rewarded for. Oh, yeah, he just keeps going. You know, he's so tough. He picks himself up by the bootstraps. We're rewarded for being disembodied, which then has us disconnected from our emotions. And from a. We get this from everywhere. So it's this pressure of always be tough, never show weakness. Men, other men are your competition. They are not your allies. You need to be able to always have it together, always be tough. You know, you can just feel it.
Host: The pressure that starts at such a young age is just amazing.
Jason Lange: Yes.
Host: I mean, in elementary school start. So they step into elementary school and they've got this pressure, pressure on them already. And they're just Kids, yeah, totally.
Jason Lange: And yeah, when we're young, we're just kids. It doesn't matter if you're a boy or girl, but we start getting conditioned. So point of where this leads me is a huge part of the work in the men's work movement. Men's groups that I'm in right now are trying to interrupt that culture and say, hey, actually, you know what? We get to choose, right? What makes for a man, in a sense. And rather of. Rather than thinking of it as a box, I like to think of it as a certain foundation we can stand upon. And then our unique individuality comes through how it ever needs. Some men are more this way, some men are more that way. But that process of coming back in, connecting to our bodies, connecting to our emotions, particularly in a relational capacity, is where I see so many men transform. And if they don't, life really does catch up. You know, I joke with a lot of guys, it's like, you know, we come into the world with kind of a certain Qi, battery charged. There's just like an energy level. In our 20s, you can just work hard. Oftentimes men are drinking hard, partying, getting up the next day, you just. There's like a go. Energy.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: The thing is, it's not sustainable. And it's usually towards early 40s and 50s, where a lot of men have to suddenly pay their debts on the ways they haven't been taking care of themselves or neglecting their bodies, which in particular, like we talked about, when we're holding emotional content and we don't know what to do with it, it has a huge metabolic cost, efficiency and energy available in our nervous system. And men will start to have lower back issues, autoimmune disorders, gut problems. Like this stuff really shows up. And not that it can all be reduced to emotional content, but it can be deeply accelerated by that emotional content. Meaning what? Normally might be a little tension in our body or something, or becomes even more intense because of all we're holding around it. So our body doesn't quite have the resource it needs to heal. And so, you know, just to kind of start to tie it all together here. The place I see that transformation where men suddenly feel able to step into the some different part of themselves to feel more deeply, to release all the burden and tension they're holding on their body, that can be quite profound, is in a men's circle, is in a men's group, where all of that conditioning suddenly has the opportunity to be completely interrupted in terms of, wow, I can look another man in the aisle. Wow. I can grieve. Wow. I can actually feel my fear. Wow. For some men, too. I can actually feel my anger. Because even anger, which was kind of the one emotion allowed for a lot of men, a lot of guys grew up with really volatile fathers. We're seeing the result of men who abused women or the environment or other people, and so they pull that inside too. So called nice guy. Right. I just want to be friendly and safe and nice to everyone. And then they don't even have a place for their anger. And to see a man cleanly. Cleanly be and express his anger, which when I say cleanly, it means it's safe.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: It's very different from a man being aggressive and exactly. Pushing that out on other people, which is what a lot of what we see in culture. But. But when we see a man who's trustable, feels safe in his anger or deep in his grief, but still feels powerful or even in his fear, just admitting, like, yeah, sometimes I don't know what to do it. I could tell you, because part of what impacted me being around men who did that immediately transmitted something to my nervous system of, oh, there's a totally different way to be here. And nobody told me and nobody showed me. And that as hard as that looks, that looks a lot better than what I've been doing. Because this hasn't been working.
Host: Yeah. Hasn't been working well for me at all.
Jason Lange: Exactly. And it starts to. What I see is that me and one of my coaching partners call it the masculine vortex of what we see is as each man steps in and opens up, it actually creates more permission for the other men too. And suddenly there's just this huge release of all kinds of vulnerabilities and fears and tensions and griefs and angers. And anger. And when men come out of that, their bodies are relaxed, their breath is deeper, there's less tension in their face, there's more vitality in their eyes, and it's like something is reclaimed that was being held inside all this stuckness. Previously.
Host: Oh, God. Freedom, right?
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: So my question to you is, here's the. Where's the bridge from getting them from the life that they're living? That is just awful. To actually submitting themselves to a. A group. I mean, that is, you know, for women, that's a little easier, but it's still intimidating. When you're walking into a group and you don't know anybody and, you know you're gonna be talking about vulnerable things, you're gonna have to Be vulnerable for men, which. No, no, no, you're not supposed to do that at all. I mean, how do you get these men to come to the group?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I wish I say. I wish I could say I had a trick for getting them to come. What I've really found is get the word out. So get the word out. Just, you know, share what's worked for me. Share what I've seen men experience, which then gets to certain people and does, you know, sometimes get to certain men. But the, the honest, painful truth I've seen is it's usually not until a man is in a certain level of pain.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: That he's like, this is so bad. I. I gotta try something else.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Whether it's some illness that comes. The loss of a job, the ending or dissolution of a relationship or marriage, or for some guys that I know, you know, just feeling so alone and isolated, having been single for so long, that it's just like, I've been on like 100 first dates and I. I just can't. Can't create that relationship and it hurts so much and I'm ready to give up. That it's often some kind of pain that, that wakes a man up to like, hey, something here isn't working and if we don't change it, life's going to continue to deteriorate. And, you know, I've particularly found. And one of the things I do focus on, on my work is relationships really are one of the areas that are just part of my language, but one of the only areas that are so painful for men. They'll get their asses off the couch and say, I need some help. I need some help here. Like, yeah, my wife's ready to leave me, or I just had another woman, you know, say, you're, you know, you're a great guy, but I just don't feel you or whatever. It, like there's a certain, like, visceral pain to that where they'll. They'll actually say, like, okay, it's time. It's time for me to do something else here.
Host: Wow. Yeah, I, that's what I. I had a feeling that was the answer. You know, it. Because it, it's not easy. And I'll be honest with you, in some cases that's happened to me, I've had to get to a certain point where I finally go, okay, you know, But I know for men, it's. It's. It's not okay. I mean, who are they going to talk to? Right?
Jason Lange: Yes.
Host: So they don't. So the scary thing when you isolate is that you get in your head too much and you start thinking too much, and then you think you're the only one, and then all this stuff that's going on in your head and all the thoughts you're having and, you know, you think you're the only person, and which makes you isolate even more. So I know for men, it's much harder for them to reach out, and so they do have to get to this point of almost brokenness.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And what I will say is part of why I'm so lit up by doing things like this with you is men. In my experience, men tend to love podcasts. Oh, yeah. Sit there. They will listen to stuff. They will just pour over material.
Host: Yes.
Jason Lange: Like, it's like, kind of a safe way to start asking some questions and engaging and hearing some new information that I. Out of all the different things, like, even more than social media, it's like, guys often come to me through podcasts where they're like, they hear me share something or speak to something, and it starts to just kind of get their mind running, and at some point, then they. They hit some kind of pain or some kind of tension, and then it's like, oh, wait, there's someone I can talk to, or there's a path, or I can Google a men's group or something. And then there's a way to, like, connect that. Those two things. But that is. Yeah, that's maybe one of the most technically proficient ways I found, is just like, just keep getting the message out there in all these channels. And so when a man is ready, he'll receive it.
Host: Exactly. Exactly. It's so true. Yeah. And, yeah, they listen in silence, and it's true. And then they resonate with it. You know, it's the same. It's the same theory. I do the podcast for trauma and childhood abuse healing is, you know, and I tell my stories. It's the same. The same thing. I tell my stories because. And honestly, there's many times that some of these stories I've never shared with anybody, and. And I. It's a little scary and a little intimidating, but the thought that goes through my head is if this story will help someone, if they can resonate with it, if they can connect with it, and it's the something that starts their healing journey, it's worth it. It's totally worth it.
Jason Lange: That's so beautiful. And I would say that's what you are intuiting. There is what I've seen work for men like I said that vortex. And I tell every man, you know, every time you step in to the circle, let's say in a men's group, and reveal vulnerably or just get honest about where you're at, even if you're angry or whatever that is, you make it easier for another man to do that. And oftentimes we'll get this right. It's like, I didn't think I could share that, but then I saw so and so, and he was so real, and he was so honest, and I felt so connected to him at the end. I said, you know what? I'm going to go for it. And then I stepped in with my story and where I realized, yeah, wow, I'm not the only one who. I was just leading a retreat this weekend. And, you know, this is the beauty of someone shares. And then you just hear the. It's, like, not quite that exaggerated, but, like, suddenly there's this like, oh, oh, I'm not alone. I thought I was the only one that was so messed up in this way or had this experience. This is a place where we can get real and get vulnerable. And it's so transformative that your willingness to bring your stories forward, just like the men I work with, their willingness to bring their stories forward, it really is kind of the, you know, it's like the beacon for people who, in the right moment, they're going to see the light and have something to move towards because of those stories.
Host: Yeah. You know, in the group setting, like you were saying, like, what that does is when one starts to share, it kind of breaks everybody else's walls down. They start kind of bringing their walls down a little bit. And I know that's so true. I have experienced it. When I did the woman's workshop, and the very first night of the workshop, each woman would share one quick story, like, whatever story comes up in their head. And then they also share, you know, how it affected them and what their beliefs were that came out of that incident. And you. I would literally just watch these women as, you know, the first one was always the scariest. But really, truly, I would tell my story first because I kind of break the ice. Right. So it would kind of, like, make it a little easier. But the first woman in the group that would share her story be so scary, so frightening. But by the time we got around the room to the last lady, you could see the connection. You could see them relaxing. That fear that they had walking in because they didn't know. Know what to expect is relaxing. And by the end of the night, they're exchanging numbers, you know, so there's. There is something about that, you know, especially when you. When we take our thoughts and we bring them out into the. We give it life, we give it a voice. Yeah, there's something about. I know for me, when I've got craziness going on in my head, and if I say it out loud, even if I'm by myself, if I just get it out there, and when you hear it, you're like, wait a minute, wait a minute. That doesn't sound right. You know, so there's something. There's something really magical, though, about getting a group of people together and. And being vulnerable and sharing. And some people take some a little longer. And that's okay. That's okay. And, you know, my question to you, too, is because this, you know, this. We deal on this podcast a lot with trauma and childhood abuse and of course, with men, that's even a darker secret for them. Do you in this group deal with any trauma and do you see a lot of it in this group?
Jason Lange: Oh, too much. I think it's just the. The pain. I think I've been shocked at how much sexual abuse there is. Has been for young boys as well, and how they really, particularly if it was instigated by a woman, there's this sense that any boy should be, like, grateful. I know sexual attention from a woman. And it's like, no, no, that developmentally, you know, that's just not appropriate. And it has a huge impact. So I've seen that quite a bit. Physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, you.
Host: Know, it's another popular one. And I've seen this in some of the men's in my life, friends and stuff in their life, but they lost their virginity at 12, and a lot of times it was an older babysitter. And, you know, in the younger years, they're like, oh, yeah, my babysitter. You know, but the reality is, no, that's sexual abuse and that's trauma. Yeah, you're 12 years old.
Jason Lange: Can't really be consensual at 12. Exactly. Even if it was pleasurable, there's still something there.
Host: And they respond. And that's what's confusing is they respond, yeah, totally.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And then it becomes very confusing for them because pleasure gets linked into all kinds of other things. Yep, definitely seen that. And, yeah, I would say just the general tendency of how much men will hold, you know, they'll really hold these stories inside. And, you know, I've had many, many Men in circles I've done. You know, they'll bring something forward that they've been holding for 20, 30, 40 years that they've just never told anyone. And it's been just a wait on them. And there's a fear that if I ever shared this, I'd be rejected. And it's again, it's one of those like, kind of tragic things. But oftentimes one man will bring it forward and then some other men will be like, yeah, man, something like that happened to me too. Something like that happened to me too. And again, just the community that becomes available in that is often really healing for guys to realize, you know, there was nothing wrong with them, a lot of it was out of their control. Um, and you know, for some men, the other thing I'll see too is they just didn't even know. You know, like, we'll get them really into their bodies and stuff will start to come forward and you know, whether it's resurfaced memories or just their body will start reacting in a way and it'll be, you know, pretty disorienting at first. Like, wow, I didn't even know that was in there. And then for it to come forward is really. Yeah. Powerful. You know, the one of the teachers I follow around trauma, you probably know Gabor Mate, right. He talks about there's the event itself, but the trauma actually happens in what happens after.
Host: Correct.
Jason Lange: So. Right. So that, you know, that I always tell these stories about. I heard this NPR interview once with people who had survived the blitz in London in World War II. So they're in London and they're literally getting bombed, air bombed by the Germans. Right. All day, all day. And they're underground kind of in the tube and don't know if they're going to make it. They just do not know if they're going to make it. Every day is like, you could, you could die. But it's pretty fascinating for a large portion of them, they actually came out the other end of that. And as their life progressed, they missed that time the most. That was the time in their life they missed the most because the communal sense was so strong there.
Host: Yes.
Jason Lange: The class, all class systems broke down and there was just, we're in this together. We're connected, we're grateful to be alive. If we get a meal tonight, we're going to celebrate that. You know, not everyone had that, obviously, but a large, shockingly large portion of people and they didn't necessarily carry that as a, like PTSD or complex trauma later. Into life because they were connected through it. And I think that's the thing that, you know, we're talking about here is the same event could happen to two people.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: But one of them might have someone to hold them or debrief or to work with them on that on the other side. And yes, it's, it's still an acutely damaging thing, but it's not as damaging as not only does that thing happen, but then I can't talk about it in my family because dad would be mad, mom would be mad. So I have to hold it in and that becomes the really damaging thing long term. And so again, just having these spaces where men can bring these parts of themselves forward, I've seen is just completely game changing for them. And some part of them gets to relax. And it's not like trauma's magically healed overnight, but it, it kind of ignites the system to allow things to start moving again and that real healing process can, can start to happen. Once, like you said, once it's in a sense, sometimes, sometimes it's even as simple as once it's been spoken, it starts to get lighter. You know, Peter Levine stuff, if you speak it, it gets lighter. And a group can hold that. You know, a really trusting, safe group can really hold that for men and they can start to have these releases. So, yeah, I do see a lot of developmental, sexual, psychological, emotional, even honestly, spiritual trauma.
Host: Yes.
Jason Lange: From people raised in certain religions, you know, some of which are fine and some of which really can do a number on a young soul. That it takes them a long time to unwind.
Host: That's another area where there's a lot of deconstructing that goes on. And the whole religious trauma that goes on, that is, that goes really deep as well. And it's really, it's. It's tough deconstructing from that one.
Jason Lange: Yeah. Particularly because oftentimes if you're still in that culture, your family, like, so much pressure to like, stay in it.
Host: Exactly.
Jason Lange: Sometimes in men's groups, one of the only places I've seen men have a space where they can talk about that kind of things because, you know, depending if it's like a workshop or something, I lead because it's not actually connected to our day by day, we have a little more freedom to talk about what's happening there versus, you know, if we're going into a, a men's group at our church or somehow deeply connected to our spouses or community. Sometimes there's a lot more negotiating. We have to Do. So, you know, there's so many different kinds of men's groups and benefits of all kinds of them, but sometimes it really is powerful when it's like, wow, these group of men, they are in no way, shape or form connected to the rest of my life. So there's a type of honesty I can bring here that I don't have to worry about. Blow back around.
Host: Exactly. Well, can you share with us, like a couple of really transformative stories of men that you've seen, you know, that were struggling and then I'm really curious to hear the outcome of them and just how they're doing. I would love to hear that.
Jason Lange: Sure. There's, There's.
Host: Sure you have a lot.
Jason Lange: Countless. Good.
Host: That's awesome to hear. Too many to count.
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. Just, you know, there's some men I've been working with over the course of this year in a program and.
Host: You.
Jason Lange: Know, just as simple as they never trusted other men. So sometimes a men's group can be particularly confronting because it was men that damaged us.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Bullies or groups or social groups. And there's been a lot of men that have come through and been able to rewrite that story, to update that story to, wow, I can trust men again. I can trust other men. Not every man, but I have trustable men in my life now that I can bring anything to. We kind of joke about, you know, having a group allows us to send out the back, that signal like when we're in an emergency. It's just like, hey, I need something. I need some support to talk and it'll come back. You know, somebody always picks up the call. And that is a game changer for guys because maybe they've just had some kind of adverse or traumatic event and someone to hold space for them and process them really, really can change them. I've had other guys that, you know, sometimes they'll come in and, you know, it's such a tender spot, but there's like, you know, I want to be able to cry, but I just can't. I just. I want to. I want to, and I can't. And it's often not until particularly we're in person and the space is being held and then some contact can be made. Just some contact. So a hand on the heart or on the shoulders and. And men just finally have the type of release they've maybe never had before in their life of just. I'm so fucking tired. I've been holding this for so many years. Just had to be tough, had to Be tough. Had to be tough. Or. There was a guy was on my retreat this weekend that was doing some. We were doing some pretty deep breath work. And I could tell that he was just from a family system where expression is not allowed. Just not allowed. And I was like, ooh. I just. I get a sense something's in there. And, you know, I tried to give him some guidance while he was breathing, and it wasn't quite happening. And then I came over later and I just got really close to him and I burst into tears. I just started wailing, just like, burst into tears, because I could just feel how much this dear soul was holding. And when he saw me burst into tears, he finally had a release. Just. He was. The fact that someone gave a shit and was feeling him, like, opened him and he started to have, you know, a pretty big release in a pretty profound way. And so, you know, other guys that just, you know, on the other end find their power, literally find their capacity to set a boundary and say no. And they never knew they had that in them. And just like, no. Like, no. You know, it's not aggressive. It's not mean. Just, no, I'm not okay with you talking me to me like that. If, you know, I'm going to walk away if. If this continues. And the level of agency and empowerment that comes back online in men when they can do that is so incredible to witness. Just so incredible to witness. Or. Yeah, like another man who had been holding something since. Yeah, he was 16. He was. He was in his 50s. And just the deepest thing that he thought no one would ever be okay with. And he brought it out and just the life force that came back into this man of just how much energy was there holding it? You know, when you have to keep secrets.
Host: I know it's.
Jason Lange: It's a. It's an active process which people don't realize. It's not like, oh, you just forget about it. It's. You're constantly tracking, what can I share? How do I share it? Yeah, how do I withhold this? How do I keep it closed in.
Host: My body and watching everybody closely?
Jason Lange: And yeah, yeah, it's profound. So just, yeah, seeing men open, come into their power, learn to grieve, learn to trust other men, to be able to magnetize a relationship that they want. You know, it really can change things. There's another guy I was working with recently, and he, you know, he comes from Eastern Europe and just has, you know, one of those wildly efficient work ethics. Like, this guy just gives so much to his Organization. He just. He works his ass off. And through being in a group, you know, we were talking a lot about nourishment and our need to relax and we can't always be and go as men and we have to restore ourselves. And he did something might sound so simple to some people, but he asked for 10 days off to go back to Bulgaria and connect with the friends he grew up with and take the first vacation of his life. Of his life.
Host: Wow.
Jason Lange: And they. They totally gave it to him. And he went out and had a fabulous time, but he never would have even asked for it. Like, his whole life, he just wouldn't even ask for it because he didn't think it was okay or, you know, he was afraid he'd lose his job. And he. That's a man who tuned into this. Well, this is what I want. And so I have nothing to lose asking for it. Right. They're either going to say yes or they're going to say no. And if they say no, I'm gonna have to seriously consider, is this a job I want to stay in. If they don't support people being, you know, having lives and restoring. But he got it. And, you know, it was like one of those wins that in some sense was small, but to him was a revolution for how he's going to be able to live his life and take care of himself.
Host: Oh, and just what that did for him to actually go and do that to. To first of all ask for that time off and get it, but then to go spend that time. Because I know when I spend time with my family, I get rejuvenated. I get. I get a lot of energy from it. I really enjoy it. You know, that had to be a huge eye opener for him. I just. I can't even imagine.
Jason Lange: Yeah, it was. It's been so great to. He sent a bunch of photos and it was just like it created more love and joy in the world. And I guarantee he went back to work and probably was even able to give even more.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Because he was restored, right?
Host: Yeah. Yeah. Very different man. I mean, that. That's amazing. So on the trust, I want to go back to the trust, the struggle that men have. Do you find that that is common, that a lot of men don't trust other men? Is that a common thing?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say most men I work with, unless they've engaged with this work early on, come in with layers of protection and defense on. Right now, some of it's an actual armoring up. Yeah.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Okay. I can't trust these guys. I. What happens if I share my truth? Like, are they going to make fun of me? Are they going to reject me? Are they going to kick me out? You know, like, there's a lot of armoring that's up. And it's not like I make them walk in first day and say, hey, reveal everything. But there's a process, right? Yeah, there's an actual process of building trust and rapport and some structures and practices and the various programs I do with guys that facilitate that, in a sense, in that, you know, I think to some extent, guys can sometimes feel it when they're working with me because I have that with men in my life. And so a lot of my stories flow out from there. Just like, yeah, I know. This is what I do. I don't make clients do anything I'm not doing in my own healing or, you know, experience, in a sense. And so sometimes just seeing the rapport I've built with other people or welcoming, you know, just welcoming and even welcoming guys in and letting them know it's totally okay for you to be skeptical or doubting or mistrusting right now. There's a whole reason. Yep. That. That had to exist in your nervous system to survive in the world. And so we don't. I'm not asking you to override that yet. Just notice it and stay open. You know, come to this with a beginner's mind and let's see what happens. And it's pretty powerful. It's pretty potent. You know, I just took 24 guys on an experience this weekend, and, wow. Many of them, you know, came out with a completely different relationship to themselves and men in a way that they didn't even know was possible. And it's, you know, it's one of the. We have a WhatsApp group, and it's just like, on fire. Just guys chatting and sharing and revealing and. And just like, once they're given a space, you know, once men are given a space, we got a lot to say, we got a lot to share. We just need to know it's safe. And then suddenly it just, like the dam bursts and just.
Host: And let. Let the men have a voice, too.
Jason Lange: Let them have a voice.
Host: Totally don't shut them down.
Jason Lange: Exactly. You have a voice. Your pain matters. We see you, and you don't have to do it alone. You know, I think that was a big theme of this weekend for a lot of our guys is, you know what? Life's plenty hard. There's always going to be tons of stressors coming at you. And I guarantee you, you don't have to do it alone. And as I tell my guys, you know, it's not that life magically gets better or easier, but it gets better. It's like the same stressor comes at you, but when you have connection, you're more resilient.
Host: Yes.
Jason Lange: Right. One of my friends says community is immunity. It builds up resilience in our immune system. Right. And when we're isolated, we have less resilience, we have less immunity.
Host: Yes.
Jason Lange: Things stick to us more and hurt us more, but when we have that support system around us, this is where I tell guys, you know, yeah, men's group can be emotional, it can be cathartic, it can be release. And the most badass men I know who are doing the most in the world, they have these support systems around them. They are not doing it alone. And you will become more efficient, more trustable. You will make more money. I mean, it is like across the board. The transformations I start to see with men as they. As they build this kind of nervous system around them of other healthy, trustable, safe men is, in a sense, it makes it safer to take bigger risks. If we fail, it's just feedback, and we have something to catch us. And so many men have never had that support system under them. So every move has to be overanalyzed, calculated, and takes so much energy.
Host: And God forbid you fail.
Jason Lange: Right, Exactly.
Host: God forbid you fail.
Jason Lange: And there's so much shame there. Whereas, you know, in the culture we try to create, it's like, there's no failure, there's just feedback.
Host: Right.
Jason Lange: What'd you learn?
Host: Exactly.
Jason Lange: What do you want to do better next time? How can we help you figure that out? We all have stories of falling on our face, and, you know, we'll share those sometimes. Like, I went on this date, I did this, and it was just like, such a relief when everyone realizes, oh, all the men I thought had figured it out, they've messed up just as much as me.
Host: They're goofballs just like me.
Jason Lange: Exactly. So liberating for men when they realize that. Because I think often, you know, accentuated in these social media days, there's this sense, oh, that man's got it all figured out. Perfect wife, perfect job, and we make up these stories and compare ourselves to them.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And it's so fun to see the bubble burst when these men, you know, come in. And it was great. We had this guy this weekend. He's like a kind of short, shorter, stout bodybuilder. Just rock solid dude. Like, really tough on the outside. And he saw this other guy who was like 6 4, 6 5, and thought, wow, that man is, like, powerful. And the. The taller guy just had been in the work a little bit more and immediately went into, like, revealing some vulnerability and emotional content. And it just, like, this guy's brain did not know how to compete. He's like, oh, I thought this guy was gonna be so tough because he's so tall. And the other men were having that experience of this guy because he was just built like a rock. Works out all the time. They're like, wow, you're so tough. You got it together. Turns out inside, you know, he was just as scared as everyone else. Just like every other little boy come into the retreat, and I say, anyone else feel scared coming in here? When you see all the hands go up, it's like, oh, hey, that's different. You know, we don't have to pretend.
Host: Yeah, exactly.
Jason Lange: Relief.
Host: I know. I just imagine the weight that's lifted off of you when you get into that place, when all this stuff is lifted off of you and you don't have to have this facade anymore, and you can just finally find who you really are and be who you really are. I mean, I. I can kind of relate to that on my end because that was something that I did in my healing journey. I'm still on that journey of certainly healing, but also figuring out who I am and what I like and what I don't like and what's okay and what's. You know, because for so many years, I just. I. I did what I thought you wanted me to do, and so I had no idea what it is I like. So I can completely relate to that. And when that. When I finally realized that I didn't know that, that I didn't have that I didn't know who I was or what my identity was. And I started, you know, it was. It was this big relief. It's like, okay. And. And my husband, at the time we were dating, he's like, let's. Let's find out who you are. And so we've been on this journey, and it's really been cool. And so once you get that permission, you give yourself that permission. It's an amazing life to find out, and you'll stumble and you'll mess up, and it's okay. It's okay.
Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. I love that. I can feel the energy in that. Just that. Yeah. There's, like, a freedom to explore.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Be curious not be perfect, not do it right. And just discover authenticity, you know, as, as human beings, let alone just men. And it's so liberating to see men step into that and be like, wow, okay, I get to kind of create the culture I want around me, how I choose to show up in my life and who I choose to have around me, who I choose to be in relationship with.
Host: You know, it's interesting because what just came to me is, you know, the old way that these men are living is actually powerless. Right. And by going into these, you know, these groups and doing this healing and doing this work, they become powerful. They become the powerful men that they were originally supposed to be, that, you know, they were really created to be, but all this crap came up and confused them and send them in a different direction. And now they get to find out who that powerful man really is and be that powerful man. It's just different.
Jason Lange: Yeah, exactly.
Host: It's healthy.
Jason Lange: Such a big fan of that.
Host: I know, I am too. I love it. I. We need, we definitely need more of that. I, I'm, I'm so for it. So tell us a little more about the groups and you know, what you offer to men. Because I think there's, there's more than just group coaching and that.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I'm, you know, a men's guide and facilitator of groups. And so I do, I do do some one on one work with guys and coaching kind of relationships. But I will tell you my, my sweet spot, my favorite place to be is in a group just because of all the reasons we've talked about, how fast I see it can open a man up to a different way of being that sometimes it's, it's hard for me. You know, this is another example, talking about with my guys this weekend and they get to feel it, you know, oftentimes our self image. So our image of ourselves is the last thing to update in life. So we're like doing all this work, we're changing. Maybe it's physically, maybe it's emotionally. And yet our story about ourselves is often a little behind. Right. And so, you know, I've had guys come in, you know, they've been working out, they lose like £300. And you know, they look in the mirror and they still see those £300 y. Like I'm just, I'm not where I want to be. I'm still, still unhealthy or whatever that might be. And the power of a group I've seen is other people can reflect to Us, Yes. Where we're actually at. And so a lot of men will have a story about who they are, and then they'll start getting reflections from other men. And I've had this happen in group, Lisa, where it's the oh. Moment of, okay, right now, either eight other people are bullshitting me or my idea of myself isn't right.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Which one?
Host: Yeah.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And that's just online so guys can do that from wherever. Then I have one that's kind of a hybrid of a virtual program and a retreat that's a specific kind of nine week men's group all about shadow work. That's where we get together and we really go into those deep, wounded, traumatic or unconscious parts of ourselves of. I don't know why I keep doing, you know, one of the signs of shadow. Why do I keep doing this thing over and over and over even though I don't want to? There's often some kind of piece of ourselves or our hurt or in the trunk, in the shadow. And so I do that program and that, you know, warms guys up with a little virtual connection. So they start building that trust with each other, get to know each other a little bit. And then we do the live retreat. So by the time we get there, we don't have to spend half the time kind of building that foundation of trust. It's kind of there and we just get to go super deep in three and a half days. And then I have the. What I just wrapped is my Labor Day retreat, which is just a one off kind of three and a half day experience in Northern California where we do a lot of embodiment practice, a lot of sharing, a lot of getting real and a lot of bonding and creating brotherhood outdoors in some beautiful locations. And just a. Probably the. If you want to jump into the deep end of the pool, that's definitely the way to go because you just, you get the full experience there. And then guys will often do another program on the tail end of that.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And more things that I'll be creating in the next year around how to start your own men's group. I have a couples program coming out with my wife and, and. But those are the main ways I'm offering. And what I would also say is regardless of whether you not want to work with me, I love it when guys reach out because I can help resource you to find a group if you want. If you're like, I do I really want something in person, how do I find it? I can kind of start to guide you on what you want to look for, how you find that Things I might know in your area. To me, the passion is just getting men connected. You know, my mission is every man should be in a men's group and doesn't have to be with me. Like, there's plenty of other amazing human beings out there leading this stuff. And yeah, I can't lead every group. So if nothing else, I'll try to plug you in or, you know, point you in a direction that'll give you something to try out for. For men listening.
Host: Oh, that's beautiful. And so how would they reach. How. How could they. Let me talk. How could they reach out to you? There we go. How could they reach you?
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. Best way to kind of keep up with me, contact me is go to my website, which is evolutionary.men. so it's not dot com, it's actually dot men. You'll find a contact form on there if you need any support or just have some questions. You can book a free call with me if you want to hear a little bit more what I'm up to. And then I have my own podcast. So there's tons of just this kind of content for men. If you're just wanting to get a taste.
Host: What is the name of your podcast?
Jason Lange: Same. Same thing as the website. So just Evolutionary Men.
Host: Okay, excellent. Well, I have one last question for you. What would you like to leave our listeners with?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say this thing. I've noticed that I think particularly men, and I've fallen prey to it too. So let me just out myself here of. Often there's something we want to do or create or a way we want to be in the world and we'll set a goal like I want to. This is the thing I want to do. And then it won't happen. And in it not happening or us giving up or getting discouraged, it feeds this narrative of I'm no good or I'm broken or I can't do anything. So it actually starts to reinforce some of our beliefs about ourselves. And just what I want to leave with, what I've seen time and time again with men is where we often want to go to, is we want to spring right to the plan, to the action, to the how do I solve this? Right.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And what's possible in a group is to do what's before that, which is first off, how about you get co regulated, you feel safe, you start to nourish yourself as a man to come out of fight in flight, which or freeze, which so many men are and just come to a ground of like wellness in the moment. And from there we get to create from a totally different way, like I was talking about, where we have this sense of something to catch me underneath. So not everything is life or death. It's, oh, I get to try this. I get to run this experiment. I get to run this experiment and try this. And it's just a step I keep seeing over and over again. Men want to not do like, you know, you could call it self care in a sense, which in this sense would be self care and getting connected to community so you don't feel so alone and, you know, feel so isolated in that shift. When men have that, it's just profound what I've seen them then step into in their life. Not out of a place of not being enough, but a place of I'm going to be okay no matter what. And it's like you said, it's a completely different kind of power that men can then move the way men can move through the world with that power in hand of like, wow, I can take chances now because I have community. I have something to catch me underneath. And, you know, I'm not killing myself in the process, quite simply. So whatever it is, whether it's a men's group or retreat, a workshop, yoga, trauma work, psychotherapy, coaching, like, you want to start dealing with that stuff now, guys, And I tell you, it's going to make it so much better on the other side.
Host: Yes. And again, thank you so much for doing this work. It is so greatly needed and I've. I've actually had a couple of guests on that do this type of work and it's just. It's just not enough. And it's so greatly needed. And, and so I, that's why, like I said, I was excited about having you on here because this word does need to get out and we do need to give a safe place for. For men. Because, you know, as I'm listening to you, I'm just thinking it's got to be so frightening not to have that to, you know, and, and it starts at such a young age, right. That it just becomes a part of you. And then when you finally get permission to let go, I would imagine it's just got to be huge because you've just dealt a lifetime of carrying this fear and burden on you, and you now don't have to carry it anymore. I just can't imagine the release that that gives them. So I, I'm glad. I thank you for giving these men a safe space to do that and, and be the men that they were created to be.
Jason Lange: Yeah. Beautiful. Love that expression. And thank you for giving a space for. For me to put it out there and for men to, you know, have a way in to what it takes to heal.
Host: Absolutely. I will definitely have more of these on because I just. It's so important because men, you know, especially in the trauma arena, too, it just. It seems like it gets more focused on women because women are more willing to step up, but it's. I want it open to everybody. You know, it just. Men need to heal, too. They deserve to heal. So thank you.
