Brotherhood & Balance: Navigating Men’s Mental & Emotional Health | Healthy Mind, Healthy Life

Jason Lange: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another powerful episode of Healthy Mind, Healthy Life. I'm your host, Avik and welcome. Today we are shining a light, I would say on an issue that impacts millions of women but is still surrounded by the stigma or silence and I would say misunderstanding as well which is the woman's mental health, wellness and obviously society. Particularly when it comes to the mood swings, hormonal imbalances, pms, pmdd.

Host: Yes.

Jason Lange: And dear listeners, our guest today is someone who has been into a powerful voice for the menstrual equity and the woman's health from a very, very young age. And I'm really delighted to welcome Ananya Grover. So welcome to the show Ananya.

Host: Thank you so much for having me and for that lovely introduction.

Jason Lange: Amazing. Amazing. Dear listeners, as you know like I introduce you with lovely guests on daily, daily basis today I'd love to introduce with Ananya. So Ananya is a Princetons graduate in in computer science with a fascinating blend of I would say minors in cognitive science, technology policy and the creative writing. So she has been a menstrual equity activist since she was 17 and has given a TEDx tech talk on period positivity at TED headquarters in NYC. Yes. And which has nearly 2 million views.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And she's the founder of Heal Cycle, a digital health solution which is transforming the awareness and care for premenstrual mood disorders like pms, PMDD and pne. So she has worked at Apple, the German Aerospace center and the Delhi Princeton. But what sets her apart is her mission driven work like building the communities and digital tools that empower women to better understand and at the same time take charge of their mental and the reproductive health. Oh dear listeners, this conversation is not just about the biology but it's all about identity empowerment and rewriting the narrative around women's wellness. So why do we wait? Let's get started. Welcome to the show again.

Host: Thank you so much and I'm really excited to be here.

Jason Lange: Amazing. So. So Ananya, like many people reduce PMS kind of to a joke about mood swings. Right. But the reality is far more than complex and I'd say at times like it's debilitating. So from there like how do you explain this difference between pms, PMDD and pme?

Host: Absolutely. I think you hit the nail on the head. PMS itself is such a broad spectrum. So it's a cluster of some research papers say about 150 different symptoms and that's why it's called premenstrual syndrome. So syndrome is always like you know, there's no proper definition sometimes and it's like a broad cluster of many different symptoms that are included in one umbrella term. So for some women it can be mild, manageable, they don't notice it much. And then for others it can be on this range or spectrum of moderate to severe. And I always describe PMDD or premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder as this sort of evil cousin of pms. So in some ways some of the biological mechanisms are similar but also different. And there is still research happening behind the different root causes. But PMDD is a very severe like cyclical disorder that really affects mental health. So it even feels like bipolar disorder sometimes to women because. And it's commonly misdiagnosed as that because imagine that for two weeks of the month you're completely normal, happy, energetic, bubbly and then right before your period is about to start. And sometimes you don't if you're not keeping track, if you're not, you know, if you don't have that kind of app or that kind of solution available to you, you're not always making that connection. That the reason that I'm suddenly feeling this way or sudden, much more anxious and having fights or breaking down more easily on petty issues that wouldn't normally bother me. Maybe it's like depressive episodes, self harming thoughts and all of those, you know, destructive negative thoughts that come to you. How do you really link that to your menstrual cycle? Right, because we are not really taught of the period as beyond these like five to seven days where you menstruate, you are bleeding and that's about like, that's mainly what most people, whether it's men or even women, know about their cycle. It's only now where we have started talking a little bit more about getting it beyond the biology textbook and being like, okay, these four different phases actually do affect your, your hormone levels are changing, they're cycling and so it's going to affect your mood, your energy maybe the nutritional requirements that you have are actually like ideally a slightly different from and vary from phase to phase. So it's that premenstrual phase which is also called the luteal phase which really has, you know, where all of these symptoms present themselves. And PME is also slightly different for pmdd. Typically what happens is that actually most of the mood related symptoms, which are, which can be quite severe resolve or go away when the period starts. Maybe on the first day or two, you're still feeling down or low and, or have certain depressive Negative thoughts, but then these go away when the period actually starts. Whereas if you have certain underlying, like a baseline condition, say you have been diagnosed with bipolar anxiety, major depressive disorder or something like that. And for those women, sometimes in the premenstrual phase, which is right before their period starts, these symptoms get more severe. So it's like they have some baseline condition, but it's getting worse or it's getting exacerbated in this phase. And that's when it's called PME or premenstrual exacerbation. So this is also slightly different. And yeah, but I think many of the challenges are similar, whether it's severe PMS or PMDD or pme, even if the diagnosis, exact diagnosis, is different for each of them. Plus, I guess we can. There's always. There can also be multiple conditions at play at the same time. Like some women that I've interviewed while building Heal Cycle, have had both PCOS and pmdd and they feel like some, maybe there's some, you know, link between these where their piece, like, obviously there still has to be way more research, but they feel like their PCOS is worsening their PMS symptoms or they have, you know, some, some emotional issues or their mental health is affected because of having pcos. So that happens sometimes. Then ADHD and autism are also correlated with higher rates of having pmdd. So there's a lot of different over, like, you know, overlapping symptoms at play here.

Jason Lange: That is right. I mean, and. And I really believe that this conditions actually deserves the greater recognition. So, so while I say recognition from there, one more thing is coming to my mind. Like, is, according to you, like, how has societies like minimizing, I mean, or minimization of these conditions impacted the woman's ability to seek proper care?

Host: Absolutely. I think that is such a major point because it's not just about, you know, even in other cases or when, when it comes to other types of, you know, disorders, you don't feel like getting even a diagnosis is the end point. It's usually the starting point. But when it comes to these conditions, sometimes women face so much struggle even to get to that end, even to get to that diagnosis of knowing what they're struggling with, that. That in itself becomes such a journey or challenge. So I think part of it has to do with the societal minimization. Also the stigma that we have right around menstrual health, around mental health, and even talking about these issues. So it gets normalized. You don't realize, okay, like, is this really just PMS Is this normal and every other woman is also facing the same thing or is this something that I need to look into and seek help for? Even if you do take that step of like, okay, I'm going to go to a doctor. When you have something, especially in women's mental health where we are, what, what, what we are talking about, when you have an issue that's not purely related to say gynecologists and not purely in the domain of your psych psychiatrists and psychologists, but instead, ideally you need some combination, right? Because it's your hormones. If, if like there could be a hormonal imbalance, maybe there is not a hormonal imbalance, but in some cases it's just our brain chemical sensitivity to normal hormonal fluctuations that's happening. So that's why these disciplines are operating in their own domains and see, always trained in the other. They're not comfortable dealing with a problem that lies in the intersection. So that's another challenge. Plus, just, you know, even if someone doesn't have any specific, not everything when it comes to mental wellness is only like if I, if you have a specific condition, it's also, you know, generally our well being and wellness and how we can take care of that better and prevent ourselves from reaching that. So even then, like I was recently part of this, I attended this film screening of a documentary called Period, End of Sentence, which actually was made like on about 60 km away from New Delhi. And it was the first film on periods to win an Oscar. So that was a groundbreaking achievement. At the time I also worked with the nonprofit that actually made this documentary. Their name is the Pad Project. So I was an ambassador for them. And after the documentary we had this discussion circle where a lot of people were sharing, you know, so, so there's a lot of just social and emotional feelings that come with dealing with your first period. Or maybe you weren't educated enough or you had, you know, bad experiences around pain or leakage and things like that. So those I think, or, or you were isolated, maybe you still. There are still many families. Even in supposedly like we like to think in cities this never happens. This is only like India where they still have taboos and restrictions and all of that. But I think that's not always true. Like from the conversations I've had with so many women. Like they, when you really dig deeper, even in our cities there are bubbles and like there are all different kinds of people and families and mindsets at play. So change is coming, but it doesn't happen over. So Even those experiences of feeling like, okay, is this. Does. Is this something that makes me impure? Is this something, why do I have to be isolated? Or why can't I participate in this normal function or activity? You know, like my brother is allowed to do things like that also really stick with women. So it's not just, you know, if you have like a diagnosed condition or something that is as severe as PMDD or pcos, but even just normal feelings around that. I think those are worsened by our social stigma. And those the lack of conversation leads to a delay in seeking help. It leads to lack of research in women's health that helps us find treatments to these problems. So it's just like a perpetuating vicious cycle in many ways.

Jason Lange: Exactly. I totally agree. I mean this is such a, such an important point. Like dismissing the symptoms as just hormonal kind of thing not only in validates the woman's experiences, but also it delays the care that could be life changing for sure. Definitely. And so from there, like, I'd love to ask you about the technology part, but before that I would love to ask, like you have spoken about the hormonal health as well. Like, so how hormonal health and the mental health are kind of deeply intervened. Like for a woman who is struggling with the mood spanks or maybe intense premenstrual symptoms, what's often overlooked in understanding the mind body connection.

Host: Yes. So I think the first thing is just in every individual, not just women, but in every body, our mind and our physical health are deeply interlinked. And there has been more and more research on this on like how our. How neuroscience or the way that you are feeling mentally and if you have more positive versus negative thoughts and how that affects your physical wellbeing. Now coming to hormones as well, like, there's obvious there's hormonal imbalances and we have started talking about those. So that could be, you know, it's like a complex dance that's happening between your key reproductive hormones like estrogen, progesterone and even testosterone, which is regarded as a male hormone, but it plays a key role even in women's bodies. So it's different for each person. Like, you do need to look at if there is a hormonal imbalance, like your lab test and blood tests will show like what's actually wrong. So it's not universal that, okay, this is what it's. There's also a lot of influencer and pop science that's going around on like, okay, just have this, you know, have this food and it'll fix your hormonal imbalance. So it's not really a one size fits all thing, but especially for, you know, if you're trying to understand the menstrual cycle, it's in that you have four different phases like I mentioned. So you have your menstruating phase that's also part of this first 14 days, which is called the follicular phase, where typically energy levels are higher and your mood is likely to be better. Then in the middle is this event, which is a 24 hour event called ovulation or egg release. I think most people would remember some of this from their high school biology, even if you haven't studied it further. But this is like the peak fertile window. And right after that like comes the luteal phase. Now in the luteal phase, towards the end, what happens is that both estrogen and progesterone, Progesterone levels fall and sometimes there could be something of a mismatch. Whereas in some people estrogen is more dominant. And so that leads to certain manifestations in other aspects of the body, whether it's your skin, whether it's your mood and mental health and so on. And it also means that, okay, I think just the awareness of that, even if someone is not going through PMDD, a lot of women do have these, like PMDD is like your 7 to 14 days before your period are going to be much harder. But for some it's only two, three days which, where they feel like, okay, like why do I, why am I crying more? Or why do I feel so sad and things like that. So even if it's just those two, three days having that awareness that okay, this is why it's happening to me. So, you know, like, and it's always, it's likely to be the same thought patterns that come up every single month where you feel like unworthy or you're questioning your relationships or your friendships and whether someone you know actually cares about you and things like that. There is a big impact on work productivity and relationships also. So that is typically like what happens. And then you have the actual menstrual phase also. So that's the complex dance that our hormones are playing. And if anything is off, there is a consequence of that. Plus another thing that we miss out, cortisol, our stress hormone, if that is, and if that is high for a prolonged period, like you're under a lot of girls who are just start some like master's degree or like I have some friends who you started like An MBA and they keep you up at all hours and give you assignments and all of that or you have like significant work stress. All of that can mess with this complex harmony of the other reproductive hormones because cortisol interferes with them. So stress and especially we are all stressed in our, you know, modern day lifestyles and everything. So stress management becomes another important aspect. So this is like I would say the hormonal health side of things. I think for if you feel like something is specifically off, definitely like your first step is something like heal cycle can help you keep track and understand, okay, these are the symptoms that I'm experiencing or get that first level of help. And then if it is really, you know, you need to get specific advice, then consult a doctor. I would say one aspect that I think even I wasn't aware of is that men also have a hormonal cycle, but it's a 24 hour cycle, whereas women have this 30 day cycle. So we actually operate differently. And that's why like there might be times even if it's someone who is an athlete or you are need to be really productive at work so you're in a really fast paced career. Those women also feel like when they're trying to push themselves and push their limits. Even for athletes there has been research if you train according to your cycle, if you are keeping track of, okay, these are the phases, this is how I should work out accordingly or this is how I can change my diet. It optimizes the whole process a lot more and just generally like regulates all of your, you know, the whole mind, body connection. So I covered a lot of different aspects but I hope this was helpful for people listening and just like a one on one on what's going on and even knowing that, you know, there are underlying biological processes that are happening that are making us feel a certain way. It's not just our brain or it's not just you're not constantly feeling like low and down because of that. But you understand, okay, this is something I'm going through, it's temporary, it's because I'm in this phase or because of hormonal fluctuations or maybe things like that. And so I can get over this and it'll be fine. Just having that level of awareness I think can be helpful.

Jason Lange: That's very, very true I'd say. And like as you mentioned about heal cycle, definitely I was about to ask you like definitely technology because we are growing day by day right now and so quickly if you can share like can technology, like obviously heal Cycle through the tools like Heal Cycle, help women track and decode the patterns that even sometimes can be missed by anyone else or sometimes maybe it gets overlooked by the doctors as well.

Host: Yes. So I would say it's definitely important and can play a major role. I don't have this opinion that technology is going to replace humans or the human expertise or doctors or anything like that. So we should see it as a supplementary and advantageous tool that we have access to. The first thing I would say is even for someone like, we were talking about getting diagnosed or keeping track and all of these things. So you have. If you go into a doctor's appointment, how much time do you have and how much time can they give to you? Right. You have a couple of minutes with them. You have to advocate for yourself. You have to present, okay, this is what I'm going through. And they have to make that decision, which they are experts at. But if you are able to present them with that information and show them, okay, this is what my cycle is. I've been, you know, taking care of, like, this is how every month before I menstruate for. This is for women that have PMDD or think that they have it every month I'm seeing on this app, like, because I've been. I just. We just have, like, on Heal Cycle, we just have these emojis, right? So it's very easy to select how you're feeling. And we also have designed it to be according to the DSM 5 or how clinical psychologists have come up with this criteria. So we have a severity scale also. So it's very easy. You go in, like, you track your moods, you can journal, et cetera. If you have that information that, okay, this is what my trends are. You can see your patterns, you can see your unique insights and chat with them. So we have an AI companion who is. We made sure that we are not saying that this is a human. It's actually this cute jellyfish character. So Tara. And you can chat with Tara anytime on your own health information. Plus, if you're just feeling stressed, confused, you need to calm yourself down. It's not a generic chatgpt that people are resorting to. It's tailored for this purpose of being able to lead you through that thought process in a constructive way, to be able to suggest, okay, let's try this meditation together. Let's try this breathing exercise. Or think about it like, what is making you feel this way? So that initial level of support that you need in the moment, that is what we are focusing on and addressing plus obviously deeper insights and symptoms. Even a doctor, even a gynecologist is going to say I want you to keep a period diary for two, three months or two, three cycles and then come back. And usually it's some sort of like paper form or something like that and you then struggle with interpreting. Okay, what's going on, they can do it for you. But even they benefit from a tool like Heal Cycles. So that's why they have like, even so chain of IVF clinics have kept Heal Cycles brochures in all of their locations. Delhi Mind Clinic has kept Heal Cycles, you know, brochures at their place also. So even they know that giving patients that empowerment or an app based platform that easily, you know, helps them record what's going on, see personal insights and get this one stop resource is going to benefit them because they can't handhold you beyond that 10, 15 minute appointment often.

Jason Lange: Exactly. Very true. I mean I have to say it's very, very, very simple thing is coming to my mind like it's really, really amazing because while tech definitely provides the different tools but it's definitely at the end it's a human connection that really, really heals. So which is very, very important. And yeah, lovely. And also looking ahead like where do you see women's mental health and the hormonal health conversations going in the next decade?

Host: A decade is a long time. So I'm very optimistic that things will change. We will have more research, we will have more data and more treatment options even, but even starting now with the kinds of startups for example that are coming up. So we are, I think Rising tide lifts all boats. So Heal Cycle is one such boat. And we hope that we can give women that empowerment and level of education, awareness that they, that would benefit them, help them feel better, take care of their health better. And I see that there are going to be more advances in, you know, nutrition research or figuring out okay these, this is how you can eat as per your cycle. We still have, we have some of those insights also on the app. I see that there is going to be more research. There's even some really interesting projects going on which allow for continuous hormone tracking. So you have your wearables, right, that can track your, for example glucose monitors, your, you have your CGMs or you have a Fitbit that can help you track your heart rate or your workouts and all of these things. But it could be much more beneficial especially for women who are in certain life phases. Like we didn't even touch on another Target population, actually, which is using Heal cycle, which is women near menopause, so they're in perimenopause. And that again is a time of all of these hormonal changes that are happening. And it feels very similar to PMDD actually. So they are also like, if an older woman who might. Thinks that they might be nearing menopause is watching this, I would definitely recommend checking, reading more about it or even trying out Heal cycle for your needs. But essentially, like, I see this full lifespan approach that will come up, continuous hormone tracking I think would be really interesting and helpful for women who are, for couples who are trying to get pregnant, who, for women who are in their menopausal phase and want to just like manage it better. And I, I'm just optimistic that all of these approaches or advances happening both from the tech side, from your bio research side in biotech, in, you know, clinical, with clinicians. Like, we are talking about how there are these like, gaps, right, between mental health, between your gynecological health. Maybe menopause is even more whole body. So it also affects bone strength and all of that. So I'm hopeful that in 10 years we'll take a much more integrated, holistic approach where women's health is not just about like, what's going on down there, but what's going on up here, what's going on in your whole body. Like, I think both for men and women, we need whole body and integrated solutions or health because these are not isolated systems.

Jason Lange: Very true. Very, very true. Yeah. And on this, definitely one more thing comes to my mind. I mean, it's not so controversial, but I believe, like, do you think, I mean, according to you, I mean, quickly, if you can mention, do you think that society is finally ready to treat them with the seriousness they deserve?

Host: A very deep question. I don't think it's, I wouldn't say it's controversial. I think it's the need of the hour. I believe there is a, a societal discord right now. There is a lot of polarization in general between people who are on one side of like, whether it's the political or social spectrum and those who are on the other. So I think there is a lot of progress in our mindsets, in our understanding of, you know, that women's rights, women's health and all of this needs to be taken seriously. There is also backlash around that. So I think the first step that I, or what I hope to see in the next few years or from my generation and even younger, is that this changes and we are able to have conversations, even if we disagree on some matters that we are able to come together and agree on the facts on. Even if you're not convinced of like, okay, like you feel like there has been enough conversation that, you know, there's so many women's organizations, there's been so much talk of women empowerment and so on. But I still urge you to look at it from, look at the data, look at the statistics and sometimes they speak for themselves. You know, there is data on the gender health gap. There is data on, you know, even in you talk about the professional world, the motherhood penalty, of how like women who have to take time off after they have children and how their earnings and their career growth never really goes back to what it could have been. So there are all of these aspects and there is actual research and data on that. So whenever this is the concern or whenever people disagree, I think like, at least we can start to come together on the broad facts, even if we have different ideas in terms of, okay, how do we go about solving this?

Jason Lange: Exactly.

Host: So I'm again, like, I would say I'm hopeful. We should all be hopeful. That is our biggest and most powerful tool as humans. That there is a lot of work to do. But I think people, we are heading in the right direction.

Jason Lange: Lovely. That's, that's really, really a great motivation, I'd say. Definitely. And for, for, for, for women who is listening right now, maybe they'll be listening, who feel unseen or maybe dismissed by doctors for them. Let's see one practical step you'd like to share or maybe you can mention that they can take today to advocate for themselves.

Host: I think going back to earlier in our conversation, the first, first very practical step is you arm yourself with information or awareness on your own body and symptoms and are able to present that in a structured manner to a doctor. I think there is this sense of like awareness in a lot of, there's different types of. No, I don't want to dismiss medical, the medical fraternity or say like all doctors are dismissive. That's absolutely not true. There's maybe you need to switch from one to the other or consult with your other girlfriends and ask, you know, you know, confide in them and see if they got help from a certain doctor and would recommend that, okay, you also go to this person. So that could be another practical step. And actually we also want to work in that direction of creating this sort of directory of non judgmental providers, whether it's therapists, doctors, et cetera, that people have had really positive, you know, experiences with. But the first step or the easiest step is, is use your resources that you have available to you to make sure that you are going in prepared. Whether it's previous records, keep them in one place and have your symptoms. You can track them using Heal Cycle or any other platform if it's more, if something else is more suited to your needs. And actually we have also come up with this like downloadable report for that reason or summary. So we don't do the. You don't diagnose, we just provide all of that information in an easy to consume form. So I, I think those are two practical steps like know yourself and don't be afraid to get a second opinion or switch if you feel like you're not getting, you're not being taken seriously.

Jason Lange: Perfect. That's such a kind of, I would say, whole takeaway that definitely women don't have to accept suffering in silence, but they can be their own advocates and friends, find the solutions that truly work for them. So that's lovely. So thank you so much for bringing your voice and your story and the vision into this space. What I take away is that women's mental health is not a kind of side issue, but it's a central one. And also combining awareness, community, innovative tools, we can definitely move towards a society that doesn't dismiss women's pain, but actually helps them thrive. So to the listeners, if you or someone you know is struggling with severe pms, PMDD or mood swings that feel overwhelming, then please remember that it's not just in your head. It's real, it's valid and it's, I mean, you deserve care. That's very simple. So.

Host: And you're not alone.

Jason Lange: Yes, exactly. And you're not alone. Correct. Thank you so much for bringing this. Yes. And Ananya, like, dear listeners, like, as Ananya reminded us today that biology is not a barrier, but it can be the blueprint for the breakthroughs. And before we move, Anya, like, if someone wants to connect with you, what would be the great medium to connect?

Host: You can find me on Instagram. My handle is Nanya G. So that's my first name and the first letter of my last name. We also are on Instagram by the name of Heal Cycles. You can follow Heal Cycle there. You can also write to me on LinkedIn or email. My email is Ananya Groverheal cycle.com so if you have questions or you want to connect on any other topic, feel free to reach out.

Jason Lange: So, dear listeners, what I'll do is I'LL put all the links into the show notes for your easy reference. And with this hope, until next time, keep building a healthy mind and a healthy life. Thank you so much.