I had one of those conversations recently that felt like two puzzle pieces clicking together. Melanie Curtin invited me onto her podcast Dear Men to respond to her "GuyTalk" episode, where she'd interviewed women about what they actually want from men in relationships. As I listened to their answers, I kept nodding because honestly, nothing they said surprised me. This is exactly the work I've been doing for years now with my teacher John Wineland and the guys I coach.
The main thread through the whole conversation was about what Melanie calls "driving" in a relationship. Not just planning dates, though that matters, but the deeper emotional leadership piece. And I'll be honest, I painfully learned this one. Early in my dating life, I was okay planning hikes and activities, but I had zero capacity for the emotional check-ins. I'd notice tension with a partner but tell myself I didn't have the energy to deal with it. End of a long day, just want to relax, don't want to open that can of worms. Sound familiar?
What shifted for me was learning actual structures and language for these conversations. Simple stuff like "Hey, what's going on for you right now?" But if you don't have the framework, which I didn't growing up, you just avoid. And that's where men's groups and relational training became huge for me. You get to practice noticing what it's like to be with someone and actually sharing that, with way lower stakes than when your girlfriend's in a bad mood.
The other piece we talked about is how much less energy it actually takes to deal with things in real time rather than letting them build up into these explosive conversations. Now with my wife Violet, we have 30 minutes every night before bed, no technology, just connection time. Sometimes we're just hanging out, sometimes we're talking through tensions, but knowing that space exists relaxes both of us. These micro check-ins clear stuff out fast, and then resentments don't pile up the way they used to.
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Jason Lange: Wondering if I hurt you, you know, boom. You just deal with it real fast, Real fast. And then these things kind of get processed in real time, which tends to create a lot more trust between partners as well, because there's more fluidity and less fear of sharing these things. And when there's less fear, you can share it faster and then you move through it F.
Melanie Curtin: Hey, guys, welcome back to another episode of Dear Men. Always good when we have a Jason episode. Jason, thank you for being here with us.
Jason Lange: Hello. Hello.
Melanie Curtin: So I was going to do a guy talk for this episode, but then I thought you have the strength of four men and so we would just have you on. No, but I really, I kind of felt like you would be able to articulate like a lot of guys experience around this issue. And I feel like you're someone who I have a sense is a man who maybe didn't used to drive as much in relationship and now does. And so I was thinking you would be able to sort of encapsulate that whole journey, no pressure or anything. So, yeah. So this is a follow up episode for those who are listening to last week's episode, which was girl talk around driving in relationship. Relationships. Men driving in relationships. And just to clarify, we're not talking about driving the car, although I happen to really like it when the man drives the car. But sort of taking the lead, taking initiative, generating plans, bringing up topics of discussion, sort of like driving things forward in a relationship, whatever that looks like. So that's what we mean when we're going to talk about driving. And if you haven't listened to the girl talk, I recommend that you do before this because I think it's cool, like, sort of like watching Jaws 2 before you watch the original. You know what I mean? So before we get into your journey, I was just curious, what did you think about last week's episode? What was it like for you to listen to it and what was sort of your impression and kind of your. As you were listening, what you thought maybe other men were thinking?
Jason Lange: Well, nothing surprised me, I guess. I think partially just because of the work you and I have been doing with the guys we coach and the work I've been doing. You know, I've been in an embodied men's training for two years now with my teacher, John Wineland. And so much of what they're talking about is what I've been practicing and learning and receiving from his teachings, which are inspired by many, many different teachers, but primarily probably David Data more than any other who we've talked about before on this podcast. And if Gu haven't read his stuff before, a lot of it dovetails nicely into this easier, I think, to digest metaphor of driving. But, you know, we. You and I talk about a lot, teaching guys, creating containers, bringing structure to the relationship. And this idea that the masculine is, as John puts it, the master of time and space, which is a great way to think of driving, is, you know, we. I like to use as a burning man man, the metaphor of we build the camp and then the feminine gets to fill it and make it pretty and live in it and actually create energy and bring stuff to it. But we're the ones that get out the map and, like, figure out how to put it together and create the space. And I think a lot of the stress I heard and frustration I heard a lot of the women on the girl talk going through was, oh, my God, we do maps all the time. We're modern women. We can do this. So it's really nice when the guy just gets out the map and puts the shit together.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. When you were listening to it, like, I'm curious, you know, based on where you are now versus where you have been in the past, like, do you think that you, let's say, 10 years ago, would have heard the episode differently? Like, how would that experience have been?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, I think particularly early on, I was actually okay with driving in terms of plans for dates. Like, you know, I've always been a big hiker and just I know the things I like to do, so it's easy for me to lead with those. What I definitely, you know, painfully learned over the last 10 years that I heard them speaking to was the emotional leadership as well. I know you told some powerful stories about that of, you know, sometimes driving doesn't necessarily mean. Yeah. Planning a date and taking somewhere. But hey, I noticed something about how you're showing up, and I'm going to lead us into that conversation, which I definitely did not do in my early dating days. No clue, no capacity, not even any real awareness around it. Mostly just avoiding difficult conversations.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So this is something I wanted to ask you about. Okay, so let's say that you're dating a woman and she is quiet that night. Right. So you're hanging out and you kind of sense that something's going on before you are who you are now. Would you. Would you notice that there was something go off and just not speak to it? Or did you not even notice? Because sometimes I wonder which it is.
Melanie Curtin: Okay. I'm really glad you spoke to that, because I feel like. I feel like that's one of those things that a lot of people are experiencing, but no one is. No one is admitting. And I don't want to make anyone wrong for that because I totally get it. I'm like, oh, God. I can imagine being in the position of being like, I really don't want to have a fight tonight. Like, I just don't have the energy. I don't have the space. But one step removed from that is the. The awareness that something's going on and not having the vocabulary or the words to be able to say something about it. Can you talk a little bit about your journey from, like, not even knowing what to say to learning how to say something? Because that's sort of step one, and then step two is, I know how to do it. I just don't feel like doing it.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I would say for me, most of that came from, like, everything else doing work. So doing deep emotional work and doing all the authentic relating work that, you know, you and I, on our various paths have been doing for a decade or so now of just learning. Learning structures for language that make it easier to have these conversations and connect. Like, you know, hey, I'm noticing this. What's going on for you? Yeah, like, it's stupid simple, but if you don't have the framework for it, which I didn't, you know, there was no my family of origin. No one ever talked about what was actually Going on particularly, or how you were experiencing each other in the moment of, like, wow, you know, being here with you. I notice it's. You haven't made much eye contact with me tonight and is everything okay? You know, which now might be a conversation that I have the tools and languaging for, but, yeah, that just took. That took tools, training, practice, over and over and over again in the circling work we do, the games, nights we do, and all the men's group stuff I've done as well. You know, it's. It's one of the. One of the. Again, many reasons I encourage men to be in men's groups because you get to actually cultivate and practice the experience of noticing what it's like to be with someone and then share it with them. And the stakes are much lower in a men's group than in. When your girlfriend's in a bad mood.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So. And when you say, like, what it's like to be with you in the moment, like, I'm noticing I'm feeling some tension being here with you, and I'm wondering what's going on for you.
Jason Lange: Totally.
Melanie Curtin: Okay. I think it's really important to actually give people the words because for me, I know that's a big part of when I get stuck and is I don't actually know what to say. Like, what the hell do I actually say to someone when I'm, for example, feeling anxious about something and I haven't worked out the solution? Like, that's a big one for me, is I'm like. Like a lot of times I won't tell a man what's going on because I don't know what the solution is. Like, for example, like, I got my feelings hurt by something you said. I don't feel like it's rational. Like, I quote, unquote, shouldn't have gotten my feelings hurt, but they're hurt. And now I'm acting weird around you, and I don't know what to say because I don't know how to say what I just said of, like, I feel like I, you know, my feelings got hurt, and I don't think that they should have, but they did. And now I don't really want to see you. Like, I feel bad about that, so I don't say anything. So I get weird and I, like, withdraw. And then in my experience, most of the time, the man doesn't do anything. He just sort of lets me withdraw. And then we're sort of in a stalemate. And I'm wondering, like, in that situation, like, what would you say to her? Like, yeah, in that scenario, and let's say in the scenario that you're not together yet, you're dating. Have you had that? I'm curious, have you had that?
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. Violet and I, I'm sure, had that particularly early on or, you know, notice. I would maybe notice things, or she'd feel a little disconnected, or sometimes I'd be the one a little disconnected. In terms of specific words. You know, it's the idea of which almost all group work has is just a check in. Hey, can we do a little check in? Just what. What's going on for you right now? Like, as simple as that.
Melanie Curtin: And would you call her or would you text her or what would you do for that?
Jason Lange: I certainly prefer that stuff in person, personally. You know, sometimes I would notice things were off in text and I would know I would not want to have that conversation over text message because you just lose so much. You lose so much. I think so, yeah. You know, next time we'd see each other having a check in around that.
Melanie Curtin: What would that sound like?
Jason Lange: I don't remember the exact. But, you know, now. Now, like, hey, what's going on for you right now? Just as simple as that.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Like, what's going on for you right now?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And being okay with whatever the answer is. I think that's something. Oftentimes the masculine maybe fears a little bit, is, oh, my God, what am I going to hear? Yeah, right. And is it my fault? And will I get, you know, criticized, collapse or criticized and just learning that it's okay. And truth be told, that oftentimes just creating the space for her to share her feelings. Change them.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: There's much less to do than we think. Like, oh, my God, I'm going to have to fix that or solve that. Or it's just like, no, off. I'll. A lot of times the feminine just likes to be heard and feel safe and doesn't actually expect us to fix anything. And, you know, so much of the trouble we get into as men is when we do try to fix it, instead of just hearing and being like, okay, wow, I hear you. That sounds really hard. I'm sorry that's happening for you or whatever that might be.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's a really good point because I think in the example that I gave of, like, me withdrawing and, like, something happened and, you know, I, like, got my feelings hurt or whatever. Like, I'm remembering this one guy. We weren't dating. We were just friends, and I can't Remember what happened? But there was. We were like, in a group, and he said something, and I kind of felt shut down or, like, kind of disrespected, actually. Like, I felt like he was sort of, like, minimizing what I was talking about or something. And I did that thing that I think so many of us do where it's like, I tried not to let it bother me, right? So I was like, oh, this isn't a big deal. I shouldn't feel upset. I shouldn't feel angry. I shouldn't feel hurt. I'll just, you know, pretend like I don't and, like, hope that that sticks, right? Like. Like, fake it till you make it. And so I tried. That didn't work. This was like, over the course of an evening, didn't work. Next day, it's still annoyed. And so I started to withdraw and. And didn't, like, just kind of hung out with him less. And I don't know whether he could tell that something was. I think he could. I think he could tell that something was going on, and I don't think that he knew what to do about it. And I felt kind of helpless or hopeless, rather, like, I felt kind of like, if this is going to get fixed, it's going to be because I go to him and say something. I don't believe that he will come to me and create a safe space. And so after, like, two days, I went to him and said, I've been acting really weird, and I wanted to tell you why. And here's what happened. I, like, you said this thing at the party, and I got upset and got my feelings hurt and then just sort of withdrew and. And he, like. His first reaction was like, well, I didn't mean that. I didn't mean it that way. Like, he kind of got defensive, and I was like, fuck. Like, this was the whole fucking reason why I didn't speak up in the first goddamn place. Because I was like, I already felt sensitive about it. Like, I already felt vulnerable about, like, taking it seriously or, I don't know, like, something about. I felt really vulnerable about what I had gotten upset about. So for him to get defensive was, like, the worst thing ever. Not the worst thing ever, but it was very upsetting. Like, and I just, like, retracted in that moment. And then I think he could sense that, and he was like, I'm sorry. Like, I'm glad that you told me. And, you know, like, kind of, like, I could see. I could see how it could come across that way. And I'm sorry. And that helped. But the truth is, like, it was actually pretty distressing for me to bring it up. Like, to bring it forward was so vulnerable. And then to have it not really, like, received very well. So I just wanted to highlight that point of, like, I didn't really need him to do anything. Like, I didn't need him to change what he had said or anything like that. I really just needed to say what I had to say and then for him to say, thank you for telling me. Thank you for telling me. Thank you for telling me. I appreciate that you came and told me. I really do want to know when something's upsetting. And I could see how that would come across that way to you. That's what we mean when we talk about validating someone's experience is just like, oh, I could see how that would be distressing for you. I could see how that would be upsetting for you. And if you can't summon the I'm sorry. You know what I mean? Like, even just that of, like, wow. Yeah. I could see how from where you are, like, that would be annoying, or, like, that could come across as disrespectful and you'd feel shut down. And I'm sorry. Like, I'm a big fan of adding the I'm sorry like, to me, I think that's really validating. But even if you can't get to the I'm sorry, just that. And thank you for telling me. Because guys and girls, like, whoever is listening, so many of us go around with these hidden resentments and these little things that have bothered us that we don't tell the person because we're so terrified of them getting defensive. So keep that in mind. If someone ever does bring something to you, don't get defensive. Try really fucking hard. Really try hard. And this whole thing about driving, that was a conversation that, you know, I had to bring up. And I felt really hopeless because I really felt like I didn't have a partner in that I didn't feel like he was gonna come to me. And I really don't think I'm wrong. I think it would have just ruined the friendship. And it's a really brave thing to do to actually bring it up first.
Jason Lange: Oh, it's huge. I mean, it's a great. It's a great, great act of leadership in the relationship as whoever's holding the masculine, you know, man or woman, and that, yeah, for the, you know, for the feminine to reveal what's going on in their heart is a risky, vulnerable thing. So to always appreciate the reveal, even if it doesn't feel good. I think is, is a great agreement or culture you can create in the relationship as the masculine creating the container of like, you know, Violet and I have talked about stuff like that before. I'm like, I always want to know whatever it is if you're mad at me, if you're upset, said at me, you know, if I do something and it hurts you. Like, I prefer to know because I can't change if I don't know or you know, how I didn't actually impacted you. And it's usually in seeing the impact or feeling the impact that, okay, oh, wow, I don't want to do that again. But if she's just kind of, you know, walking around not revealing that it's painful. So that's one of the things we can definitely take charge around as men is creating that culture of better to share, better to reveal. And, and then our practice is not denying, deflecting. Like, I've been just as guilty as that. And early in our relationship I do that all the time of like, oh, but, well, you're not understanding this or it doesn't matter. I would never do, you know, but none of that really matters in the sense of first just honoring the share of oh, I can, I feel and I see how much that impacted you and thank you for sharing that. I'm sorry. I don't want that to be that way again, whatever that might be. That's one of the most powerful ways, you know, you can certainly drive a relationship in this more emotional sense that we were talking about is also just consistently proactively creating the space for check ins of like, hey, what if, even if you're a Netflix and chill couple, what if every time for five minutes before we Netflix and chill, there was just, hey, that's. I just want to check in. What's been going on for you? What are you noticing about us? It does not take long. It really doesn't. Especially if you're doing it frequently. Very short micro things can kind of clear this stuff out really fast, really fast. And then those resentments don't build up in the same way. I think that's a really powerful way us men can lead. And it takes courage. Takes courage to go in and be ready for whatever might come out of those conversations. But you know, whether it's proactive or whether it's noticing, you know, that she's acting differently or holding her body differently or there's a terseness to the words, whatever, it might Be. It's also super sexy if you can lead that way as a man, because it means you're aware. We talk a lot about in our program, like, masculine is consciousness. It's awareness. And so by noticing that stuff, you're actually demonstrating your consciousness and awareness. And who doesn't love that to notice? Oh, the person I'm with is actually paying attention.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I just want to emphasize that because, like, when a man is like, I'm noticing that you're quiet tonight, you know what's going on for me, I automatically feel better. Like, right away, I feel better because I feel like I'm being seen and felt. And I didn't have to do all the work for that myself. I didn't have to speak to it. Like, he noticed on his own, he noticed. And the other part of that is, like, you know, I'm noticing this. You know, I'm feeling this tension or what's going on. Doesn't give her the choice of not responding. It's not, are you okay? Are things okay? Which I suspect sometimes the reason that people ask it that way is because they don't really want to know. Yeah, they want to get the know, everything's fine answer.
Jason Lange: Fix it fast.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, fix it. Quote, unquote, fix it fast. So the other thing that I want to just point out here is, for me, it works really well. When the man says, I'm noticing I'm feeling some tension, or I'm noticing some tension in the space, what's going on? Rather than, you seem tense, you seem upset.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: Like, so just to really drill that in of, like, what are you experiencing? What is happening for you? What are you noticing in the space, and speak to that, because otherwise, I think you can put someone like a woman on the defensive.
Jason Lange: Totally.
Melanie Curtin: You can be projecting. Okay, so I want to go back a little bit because I think it's really true what you said about, like, for a lot of men, it's like, I don't really want to deal with that. Like, I don't really want to know why she's mad. I can kind of feel that she's mad, and I don't really want to deal with it. Like, what is going on there for the man and for you? When you've been in that position, what has helped you kind of like, take the risk, take the step, ask the question.
Melanie Curtin: Okay, let's pause there. It actually takes less energy in the long run. I just want to, like, highlight this because I feel like definitely when I've had, like, something on my heart that I haven't expressed and he isn't asking me, and it's getting worse, and now we're going to bed and I haven't expressed it. Now we're getting up the next day. Now it's been the weekend.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: I feel way worse on Sunday than I did on Friday. I feel like shit. I feel not noticed. I don't feel cared about. I feel more angry. I feel more resentful. I feel more brittle. I feel angry. I just. I'm pissed and really sad and anxious and very much thinking about leaving the relationship versus this, what you're talking about. And it sort of reminds me of. Bear with me. This is gonna be a really strange metaphor, but my housemates are gonna get it. If any of you are listening, our freezer sucks. And so it, like. Like the condensation from our fridge drips down into our freezer, which is on the bottom of our. The way ours is constructed. And so it builds up ice. And the longer we wait, the worse it is. You can't even open the fridge, the door of the freezer, because it's iced shut versus if we kind of clear it out like every other week, like, clear out the icicles. It doesn't get that bad. It's easier. It's a lot easier. And so it's. It's an illusion that avoiding the conversation will be less energy. It's an illusion. It's an illusion. It's not actually the case. It's easier to do it as you go along than waiting for this big explosion.
Jason Lange: Absolutely. Yeah. It becomes more of a real time thing. Just, hey, I noticed that when I said that, you know, I noticed you tighten up and wondering if I hurt you, you know, boom. You just deal with it real fast. Real fast. And then these things kind of get processed in real time, which tends to create a lot more trust between partners, as. Because there's more fluidity and less fear of sharing these things. And when there's less fear, you can share it faster, and then you move through it faster.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I'm wondering if you can. Because this is something I've been wondering, like, as a woman, like, when. Like, let's say with that example where, like, I shared the thing and he got. He got defensive. Like, I felt like I wanted to die, and I felt like I was, like, shrinking and I just, like, wanted to die. Like, what is a skillful way to, like, deal with this defensiveness on the feminine side? Like, what's a skillful way to do it? Because it seems really, really fucking common. Am I wrong? Like, it seems really common. It's pretty, pretty common. So what's like, a skillful way, like, for you, if you think back to times that you did get defensive, like, what's like, a skillful way for the woman to respond or is it just a matter of the man learning to not do that?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I don't. I mean, I don't know. I think it's a lot of training on our part more than anything else. You know, having some shared agreements might be good. Like, which you can lead and lead around as a man of, hey, you know, we're dating now or we're in a relationship and I like to talk for us to talk about, like, what are kind of our road rules for engagement? You know, as simple as that.
Melanie Curtin: Of, you mean, like, how are we going to talk about conflict in a way that.
Jason Lange: How do we talk about conflict? You know. You know, one of the phrases I like is just agreeing to not make each other wrong. Which. Right. Oh, oh, yeah. I have a different understanding of what happened, but I can, you know, I get how you could be experiencing that. Right. Like, which I imagine would have been a different. If he had responded like that, it might have felt differently that, like, oh, that's not how I remember it. But wow, I can really see it impacted you and I'm sorry for that. Thank you for sharing. And that there, whatever those road rules might be, you know, the different guidelines around that, that's one of my favorite, is just agreeing to not make each other wrong. And I think for a lot of us men, just not. Not trying to meet feeling with logic. Right. Like, oh, well, if you just understood what was happening more, then you wouldn't feel that way. Which actually isn't. It's just not how it works. Like, there's no retroactive. A lot of the times it's like the feelings there until it's acknowledged, it doesn't really move or go away. So for a lot of men, just totally honoring the feeling and knowing that actually that's all you really have to do is honoring whatever she's feeling. And then oftentimes that's enough. Like, oh, okay, great, now we can move from there. And we're kind of on the same team again. Yeah. I don't necessarily have any tips, I would say, for the feminine in terms of revealing that other than err on the side of revealing is what I would say. You know, it's one of the reasons I was magnetized to my partner and my wife is she didn't hold back and I encouraged that. And I like that as a man, it makes it easier for me to.
Melanie Curtin: Lead in the relationship, even when it's upset, because that's what I think.
Jason Lange: Totally.
Melanie Curtin: Okay. That's what I think Is challenging for a lot of men is like exactly what you said of like, I was hurt by this thing that you said. And I feel like at that point, like they seize up. Like they get. Like their bodies, like contract. Like they feel attacked. They feel like they're being made wrong. Like, you're wrong, you did it wrong, you're doing it wrong. Like you're wrong, you're bad. Like, it's like they hear we're always.
Jason Lange: Gonna feel like we're doing it wrong. I mean, that's something you can just accept as men, as the masculine is. That's just part of it. You know, we see things as we're winning or we're losing. So when we get feedback, oh, fuck, I'm losing. I don't want to be losing. I don't want to be losing. But you just gotta let go of that. You just have to let go of. You're never gonna get it all right? It's never going to be perfect. And till, you know, in the more David data sense to just not fear her moods, like when you can do that, or it's like, okay, you're upset with me. Let's just go into that. Bring, you know, bring it on. Tell me what's going on. Like, more. Is there more? Is there more? That's one of the greatest phrases you can learn to say as the masculine to your feminine partner, which comes. I think I learned it from Imago, but just, okay, she spoke and then invite more. Is there more? Is there more? And just keep, keep, keep inviting it, keep inviting it, keep inviting it. Which just keeps creating more safety and more safety and more safety. That, yeah, whatever you share, I'm still going to be here.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I think that's.
Jason Lange: If you can hold that energy as the masculine, a lot of feminine partners will just melt.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I really.
Jason Lange: No matter what I'm sharing with you, you're still here.
Melanie Curtin: I want to highlight that melting part because when I imagine so, like, there's that scenario, right? The Friday to Sunday situation, like something happened when I imagine when, when a man brings it up with me, which I honestly can only remember in maybe, let's say 150 interactions, a man doing. Two times in my life that I remember, the two times that it happened, I felt an enormous sense of relief. An enormous sense of relief. Like maybe I don't have to do everything myself. I feel noticed, I feel seen. And so the feedback that I did give him was better. It was better. Like I was in a better place in that instant. Like you said. There's something about when he comes to me, when he's driving the conversation, I feel like my stomach relaxes, I feel more. I feel safer. And so I'm more likely to reveal more because I feel more held. So there's also, like, a benefit to it. So it's not just like a burden. I mean, I'm sure it feels like a burden, but just. I just want to, like, bring that up because I think there's a reward that you're gonna get.
Jason Lange: Oh, totally. Yeah. I mean, your partner is, at least in my experience, you know, once you go through that, she'll be even more expressive. She'll actually bring more energy to the moment into the relationship, which is more fun and feeds us. You know, in the masculine, we actually get gifted that energy. And it's. You know, honestly, it's going to lead to better sex, too. She's going to be more in her body, she's going to feel more safe, she's going to feel more expressive. So it serves the relationship on multiple, multiple levels. And like we said, it's just. It's more efficient to kind of handle this stuff as you go and more proactively kind of go into those spaces as the masculine leader and bringing that to our partner just over and over and over and actually making that be part of the relational dynamic. Just, hey, I want to check in. What's going on for you? You know, sometimes, even when maybe there's nothing going on, but just making that part of the practice you can do over and over and over. So great. And I know, you know, for Violet and I, we have a scheduled time now. Every day that I initiated after one of my last retreats. And just knowing we have the time coming up relaxes her.
Melanie Curtin: Can you specify what the time is? What do you mean by that?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Period.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I think first of all, pro tip, in case anyone missed it, that's pretty brilliant. 30 minutes of technology free connection time before bed or whatever. I mean, before bed seems like a great idea, but like just, you know, 30 minutes, like, that's not the end of the world. Like, that's pretty doable, but just that. And then also the word that you mentioned I think is really kind of advanced way of talking about conflict. Because I think the word, for me, the word conflict brings up a lot of like, charge versus, like, are there any tensions that we need to talk about? Like, tension feels more like doable, temporary. Like, like, I hear the word conflict and I think of war, which is very binary, versus tension, which is like, oh, it's a rubber band. There's tension and there's not. And then, you know, know, it's more fluid.
Jason Lange: I love that. Yeah, it's less, you know, conflict tends to be one side versus the other, whereas tension just exists in a system. It's like, it's less personal of just, hey, is there tension in our relationship right now? It doesn't mean anyone's doing anything wrong. It just might be some miscommunications or lack of time or whatever that might be. So that's definitely a word I've, I've really enjoyed.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And also like appreciations could be in there too. Like any tensions. Any appreciate appreciations from the day of, like, oh, man, you know, like the fact that you went to the store without me asking. I felt so relieved when I got home and there was food. Like, thank you for that. Because you might have thought it earlier, but like your partner was on the phone or something happened and you're just like reflecting and like, that feels really good. Like, that's a really nice thing to have, like, like a space, you know, because I think especially these days, it's so easy for us to just fall into our phones all the time and be on them right up until we go to bed.
Jason Lange: Oh, absolutely.
Melanie Curtin: So, yeah, that's a super duper pro tip of the 30 minutes.
Jason Lange: Making. Making time for the actual relationship. And relationship, that's one of the great. That's one way you can drive as, as. As the masculine is actually create space for genuine relating because it's very easy. I know. You know, I was in relationships before this where it was just more the automatic. These are the things we do when we're together, and they're very rarely relating or like, building, you know, connection in the relationship. And I think more than ever, that's like a challenge because we're never really alone anymore when we have our technology with us. So there's always a little something creeping in or attention a little elsewhere or with the TV or, you know, all the different things.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, yeah. And I told a story last week after the episode that I wanted to just put in here. In terms of driving, I'm a big fan of stay at home dates. So not just like, we're going out somewhere nice, but like, stay at home dates. So I was dating a guy once and he. I only eat happy meat, meaning, like humanely raised meat. And he called me or texted me and was like, hey, I picked up some happy bacon at the store and some kale. And I looked up a recipe for like, this just super simple dish. I was thinking we could do that and watch a movie tonight. What do you think? And I was like, so wet. I was like, holly Lulia, like, come over. Like, I'm definitely gonna have sex with you tonight. Because I didn't have to think about it. I didn't have to plan it. It wasn't an elaborate thing, but it was like. You looked up a recipe for me. Oh, my God. Like, you picked up the bacon already. Like, and it's happy bacon. Like, I can eat it. Like, you know who I am. And you. I don't know. I was, like, so thrilled with that. And there was another time where I was dating a guy and he was like, let's have a, like, date night. Come over. I'm not gonna tell you what we're gonna do. And we just played Scrabble and drank wine and that was it. But it felt fun. Cause he had an idea and he, like, drove that, you know, scenario forward. So I just wanted to throw that out there of like, these don't have to be elaborate drives that you're driving.
Jason Lange: You practice. I mean, it's great practice and it's. It's edgy for a lot of men these days to just have a plan. And be directive. This is what we're doing. You know, does that sound good to you?
Melanie Curtin: And is that because they're afraid the woman will say, like, God, I can't believe you thought of that. That's so stupid.
Jason Lange: Sometimes I think. I mean, I think it comes to energy and burden again as well, of, I gotta make a plan now, right. I just spent all day planning for work and holding, you know, holding space for other people. And here's another thing to do. But like you said, it doesn't have to be an elaborate. It's, you know, it's. There's. There's a. There's a story I've heard that some psychologists did where it's like, you know, the. The paralyzing of, you know, a group of people, and you get out on break and it's like, hey, where do you guys want to go for lunch? And it takes, like, nobody will. It's very hard for people to come forward with decisions. And they were like, actually, one of the fastest ways to come to decision is just immediately, right away, McDonald's. And then as soon as there's a reference point, people will come in with opinions really fast. And then it's easy to make a decision. So you just, like, throw a direction in, even if it's not one you are ultimately going to do, and it starts to move things. So for, you know, a lot of these things in terms of driving, it's just like, come up with an idea, just throw it out there. It doesn't have to be the one you even do together.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Like, it might just start the ball rolling of like, oh, yeah, no. You know, I would love to do something outside, actually, but I don't feel like a hike, you know, can we go to a garden or something instead? Like, she'll give you feedback really fast, and then you just kind of iterate off that, like. So you don't actually have to even plan out all the little details. Just, hey, I was thinking we could do this today, you know.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, go to the beach. The other thing I wanted to shout out was masculine intuition. I feel like there's a myth out there that women, that feminine intuition is stronger than masculine intuition. That has not been true in my experience. What has been true is I feel like a lot of men have the intuition and then they stuff it down or they convince themselves that it's not right for some reason. But, like, if you use your intuition about a plan or driving, like, it's kind of like they say on the SATs, first thought best Thought like your body came up with it. If it, like, if you're like, I don't think that that guy spent a lot of time. I think he was like, I feel like bacon. Like, what would Mel enjoy that also involves bacon? And then he was like, bacon and kale. She's healthy, she likes kale. I think he just was like following his intuition and it was perfect. So shout out to you guys. You have strong intuitions. I know you do. Like, trust them, Trust them, follow them, use them to drive.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And don't be afraid. I think that's just sometimes what it comes down to. One of the best ways to tune into that intuition and just come up with a starter plan, even if it's not the ultimate one. You know, we, I teach guys in the training webinar. I do of just like start with something you want that you would enjoy doing. Right. You know?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Like, yeah, obviously if you're a world class mountain climber and she's never climbed before, you're probably not going to go climb Half Dome. But you can. Hey, what would you know? Oh, I'd love to go for a climb today. Or like, I can create a plan.
Melanie Curtin: Hey, like, I like surfing. There's a surf competition in Hermosa next weekend. Do you want to go? Yeah.
Jason Lange: And you know, for that to work, you have to know what you want as a man and you have to give a shit and have a life. That's one of the challenges too, of like having a calendar full of activities and community and knowing what brings you energy and how you want to spend your time. It's much easier to create plans when you have all that.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: When you're energized.
Jason Lange: When you're energized and doing something you enjoy if you don't actually, you know, like, doing certain things, but, oh, that'd be a cool date, you know, it might not work. Do the things you love.
Melanie Curtin: Oh, by the way, I also wanted to say this, which I didn't say last time. As we wrap up, even if you don't go on the date, you still get points for suggesting a date. So I had a guy a couple weeks ago that was like, what are you doing Friday? I want to go. I want to take you to this jazz place, and we can go for sushi beforehand. And I wasn't free, so I couldn't go. But he got so many fucking points for, like, having an idea. And I was like. Like, I sent him one of those gifs where, like, the girl is swooning. So, like, even if you don't do the plan, like, know that you get points for, like, driving, like, just having a. Having an idea.
Jason Lange: Yeah. Putting in the time and the thought. Right. I mean, that one of the things I remember you guys mentioned on the episode, you ladies, was some of the work that you put in to get ready for a date. Right. Just dressing up and getting your body ready and adorning yourself. And, you know, one of the male equivalents to that, in terms of how you can reciprocate that energy is taking the time to fucking plan the date.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Right. Just know where you're going, when you're going, which is that same level of intention ahead of time in order to honor your partner. Right. She might not necessarily want to put in an hour getting ready, but she's doing it to bring you pleasure.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, Right.
Jason Lange: A lot of times she wants to feel good, but a lot of times it's also, oh, my God, I want my man to find me sexy tonight. So I'm gonna do all these things. So the least you can do is come up with a plan, which is a way to show that you care about her experience. It's that simple. If you're showing up without a plan, sky, you're not really showing that much care.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Even, like, for example, if you're going out and there's. And we're gonna start to wrap up, there's, like, I've had guys that. I thought this was really sexy. They had already looked up a place that would be open after the show or open after the date. Like, oh, I know this ice cream place is open till 12. Oh, I know this bar. You know, this bar has board games and is open till 2am like, they had thought of, like, it's gonna be around or 11. Like what's still gonna be open in that area so that we didn't have to do that? Like, that was awesome. So just. Yeah, that just like planning ahead thing. So Jason mentioned community. I just wanted to shout out that we run a community and a 10 week bootcamp for men called Pillars of Presence, if you're interested in that at all. Definitely listen to his talk.
Jason Lange: It's called you can go to Evolutionary Men Dearmen and it'll kind of give you the different steps for how you can watch the webinar and how to talk to us.
Melanie Curtin: It's a really good talk. I can't. What is the title?
Jason Lange: Like, it's beyond the beyond the Nice Guy. Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: Even if you don't do the program, like, watch this talk. It's a really good talk.
Jason Lange: You can totally change your dating life with just doing the five steps in it. The five shifts will totally change how you're showing up on dates. And we get that feedback all the time. For guys, I just did the five things and I had a great date.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Evolutionary Men Dearmen.
Jason Lange: Evolutionary Men Dearmen. And yeah, you know, really what it is in different ways are a couple of the shifts are very much about different ways to drive.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Drive emotionally. Drive with plans and drive with desire as well.
Melanie Curtin: Because it makes us what?
Jason Lange: Yep.
Melanie Curtin: Hey guys, thanks for listening. Just again, a quick note. If you're interested in the course, you can find it at pleasearenbed.com www.pleaseherinbed.com or at my site, melaniecurtain.com under courses and have a very sexy. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da.
