53: How to get over your freaking ex | Dear Men

Jason Lange: I explicitly remember it was like the second to last day. Something just lifted. Something lifted. Like I was like, oh, okay. I think I'm ready to move on.

Melanie Curtin: All right, guys, welcome back to another episode of Dear Men. I always love Jason episodes. And Jason, I gotta tell you, I always get the feedback that people love Jason episodes. So welcome back to the podcast. Glad to have you.

Jason Lange: Always. Great to be here.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So today we are talking about how to get over an ex, how to get over a breakup. And as you guys know, or if this is your first time listening, Jason and I co run a program for men called Pillars of Presence. And this pattern of being caught up on an example, this shows up in a lot of our clients and a lot of the guys that come into the program. Actually, I think Jason, you said about half come in with this pattern.

Jason Lange: Feels like about half at this point are either just out of a significant relationship or, like, pretty fresh out of a divorce.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So it's a big. It's a big topic in terms of a flashpoint of like, why just. How do I do this? How do I get over my ex? I can't seem to get over this fucking relationship. I can't seem to get over this ex. And I know that I'm obsessing. I know that I should. I know that it's not healthy, but I just can't figure out how to do it. So that's what we're going to be addressing today. And I think it's very worthwhile because it's. It's pretty universal. And it seems like. I'm not sure. I know anyone who doesn't have, like, at least one time when they've had a relationship that they just couldn't shake. It was really hard for them to kind of let it go or get over it.

Jason Lange: Absolutely. It's a big pain point.

Melanie Curtin: It is a. It's a really big pain point. Literal pain point. So I want to start actually with our personal stories around this of what happened for us, and then we'll sort of transition into the patterns we see in our clients and how. How we kind of recommend helping someone get over an ex. So. Yeah. So who. What is a relationship in your past that you feel like was an ex that you had a hard time getting over? And why. Why was it so hard?

Jason Lange: Yeah, the one. The one that's coming to mind would be a relationship I had maybe a decade ago. And it was in the midst of a massive life transition where I was moving and she wasn't. And we kind of knew that from the beginning, when we started seeing each other, but when we moved, when I moved, you know, things really pivoted faster than I thought they would in terms of the context of our relationship and whatnot. And I was just hung up and logically knew that it was coming, you know, because I knew I was gonna move, and I knew she wasn't gonna move. So there was, like, a logic in me of like, hey, I know this. You know, I know this is coming. And still, it really. It really kind of ran me through the wringer. And I think a big part of it was I had moved somewhere new. So I didn't. I didn't have any roots yet. Like, I didn't even have a job yet. I didn't have a lot of friends yet. So I had a lot of time. Had a lot of time to ruminate about things. And most of my connections were still back in the place she lived. Most of my friends were still there. So a lot of my attention was still there. And it was just really painful, over and over and over, to be kind of thinking about her and how things ended. And, you know, for me, the thing I really got that probably really kind of made it more extreme than it needed to be was just the amount I realized of how much I had withheld in the relationship and kind of held things back, not fully expressed myself. Um, and that really burned, and that really hurt there. There's a really, I don't know, special kind of pain that I think myself as a man and a lot of the men I've worked with get stuck in and, like, oh, I can feel now the moments I should have or I could have showed up differently and what that would have meant for us in that time together. And just, like, replaying that stuff over and over and over again.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that replaying. I can relate to that, especially in the clients that I've worked with, of just the would have, could have, should have around. Around the relationship. And I'm curious for you, when you were doing that, that stuff, what wasn't, like, one example of, like, oh, man, I should have blank. And then what. What was your fantasy of what would have happened? Like, oh, man, if I'd only blank, then blank would have happened.

Jason Lange: You know, I think, for one, having just actually led the relationship, like, just realizing how much I didn't lead, and I never. We knew I was moving, and I never had the conversation of, what does that mean for us? What are we doing? How do you feel about that? How do I feel about that? How are we going to navigate this transition? How are we going to uncouple? In a sense, like, I didn't, I didn't lead that. So things, you know, transitioned in ways that were a little intense for me in terms of her meeting someone else a little faster than I thought. And so there was like anger in myself that I kind of took out on her at least a few times. But I hadn't actually set any kind of container or set any boundaries or talks, like just even given the space for her to share her feelings or for me to share mine. And it was just really rough feeling that like my lack of leadership there not only caused me pain, but her pain. So that was one thing that I like, really just kind of beat myself up over, over and over and over again, which is an entirely wrong thing to beat myself up over. But other things were just, you know, really being present with her, you know, really, really taking the time to just be present and share and reveal, you know, themes that continue with me to this day, you know, in a lot of ways. And feeling the kind of buildup that, that caused and then the grief of, oh, and our container is no longer appropriate to express that or share that. In, In a sense, like it's passed. Like that moment is passed. The opportunity, it's gone.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. What I hear in that is like regret around. We could have had more connection, we could have had a stronger connection. We could have had a deeper connection. We both could have had been more expressed if I had led conversations around this stuff.

Jason Lange: Totally. Yeah, that's. That's exactly it. And then, and then just, you know, and then getting into patterns of just total jealousy as well, you know, being somewhere new, not really feeling super connected. And then she's back, like hanging out with my friends, which there was nothing there, but there was just. There was real jealousy for me around that and around her that was really hard for me to just be with and that I really got stuck around a lot, kind of keeping myself enmeshed in some sense.

Melanie Curtin: And I'm curious, how long did that last? And how did you, how did you get through was.

Jason Lange: It was a good, I would say three, three and a half months. I would say pretty intense. Ruminating on her and things. And I, truth be told, you know, where it really shifted was I went on a seven day sashin, which is a Zen meditation retreat, silent one where you, you meditate, you know, 14 hours a day or something crazy. And so I just had, I had seven days with nowhere to go, nothing to do but like just Be with everything, feel it, think about it. You know, really kind of go into those loops in a way that there was just no turning away from them and really noticing the feelings coming up in my body. And I explicitly remember it was like the second to last day. Something just lifted. Something lifted. Like I was like, oh, okay, I think I'm ready to move on.

Melanie Curtin: First of all, I want to say that's really brave that you did that. And it sounds really uncomfortable. The first part of just sitting with those feelings and I think, yeah, that, that seems to be a theme in a lot of the guys in our program is kind of like slowing down and actually feeling the feelings instead of numbing the feelings. That appears to be. I mean, we all do it, but sort of that theme around numbing the feelings with Netflix, video games, food, alcohol. I don't know what's another popular one that, like. Oh, pornography. Right, Porn. That you took away all of those when you went on that meditation retreat. And that's fucking brave.

Jason Lange: It was, it was intense. It was definitely one of the most intense things I did. You know, I didn't do it solely to get over the breakup. I'd like it that it was for other things that were serving me. But that was the effect of it is, you know, once I was there, I was like, oh, yeah, there's no, there's nowhere to go around this. And it caught, like, it literally caused me to disconnect in the sense like I wasn't online. I wasn't able to check Facebook every day. I wasn't able to like intuit where she was in which my friend she was hanging out with and those things that were kind of just hurting myself, you know, in the weeks before that, because it didn't really do any good. But getting offline for seven weeks, like really let my nervous system kind of reset and unhooked.

Melanie Curtin: Seven days. Yeah, Seven days. Yeah.

Jason Lange: Not seven weeks.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. I think that's a good point. And it's almost like reopening the wound every time you see what's happening on social media. And that's I guess when it will come back to that subject. But I just wanted to highlight that like you having that time and space away from social media, not seeing what, what she's doing, where she is, et cetera, was helpful and yeah, really helped kind of with the transition.

Jason Lange: And then, you know, I'll just speak to another one was when I left a long term relationship and I was the one that ended it, which Was, you know, it was more intentional in that sense. And, um. But the. You know, the one thing I want to share about that was I tried to go back out dating way too soon. Like, way, like within. I think within three weeks, I was. I was out on a Tinder date. And to her credit, one woman I was out, you know, was asking, you know, we're just getting to know each other, and we were sharing, and I, you know, I shared what had been true for me and where I was coming from. She looked at me and she's like, are you. Are you ready to be dating? And she was right. I actually wasn't. I had a hard time admitting it at that point, but I was still. I was still, like, in the same way, processing the last relationship and uncoupling energetically and emotionally in a way that I wasn't really available for connection for dating yet in that dating itself, I was doing it to distract from, you know, from the painful feelings of ending a relationship with someone that, you know, I cared about and was a good person, but ultimately wasn't the direction I wanted to go in in my life. And so instead of, you know, instead of being with that, one of the things I turned to too fast was just going back out there and trying to meet someone new. And that's one I see over and over with a lot of the guys we work with.

Melanie Curtin: That is such a good point. I'm glad you brought that up, because I think, yeah, there's something almost like a narcotic about Tinder Bumble, like all the dating apps, because there's so much dopamine, right? Like, we open the app and there's a new person, we can read their profile and swipe, and there's messages, and that's a lot of dopamine for our brain. And that's a. It's a pretty good narcotic. It can be used as a distraction and as a way of numbing. And then the act of going on the dates and everything like that can also be that distraction. And especially talking to multiple people at once and managing all this stuff, then if we're keeping ourselves busy in that way, we don't have to feel the feels, and we don't have to. We don't have to do the grief. We don't have to grieve. We can just kind of push it aside for a while, but it doesn't really work in the end.

Jason Lange: Definitely didn't for me. And I'm curious, what about you?

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, so my story is I was the One who ended it with this guy in my 20s. And I was. I was pretty obsessed. I was pretty obsessed with him. I was pretty obsessed with the relationship, why it went wrong, what happened, all that stuff. And I had. I was living in the US But I had gotten a scholarship to be in Argentina for 10 months. So we broke up while I was over there. So basically, he came and visited. It was terrible. I broke up with him about a couple weeks later, after the trip. And then I was kind of obsessing, and I, like, wrote him this long letter. I just thought about it all the time. I remember kind of like waking up thinking about it, going to sleep thinking about it. I was pretty obsessed. And interestingly, I was living in Buenos Aires, and I went on this trip with my roommate to Bolivia. And I remember we were on. We were on a bus going up to Lake Titicaca, and there's an island in the middle. I think it's called La Isla del Sol. And we went on this hike in on that island. And I was like, I gotta tell you, like, I was tired of this. Like, I was like, I can't with this anymore. I'm so sick of thinking about it. I want to get over this. Like, I just. I just am so over it. And I was like, I need some, like, help. Like, please help me. So it's kind of praying on this hike, and I had altitude sickness, so I kind of felt like shit. Like, it was a really intense sort of experience. And I'm on this hike, and I let my housemate go ahead of me. So I'm kind of by myself, and I pick up this rock, and I just hold this rock, and I'm on this kind of, like, cliff area of the island, and I hold this rock, and I'm like, I put all of my obsession in the rock, and I'm like, I'm gonna put all my thought loops. Like, I'm just filling this rock up with my angst. And then I threw it out to sea. And I was like, I let this go. And to make a long story short, it worked. Finally felt like some relief and some freedom around. Just like, I wanted to enjoy where I was. I think that was part of it was like, I'm in fucking Bolivia. It's beautiful. Like, I'm in the Andes. There's gorgeous colors everywhere. There's alpaca, there's wildflowers. I'm on this island in the middle of this ancient lake. Like, this is gorgeous. And I want to be here. I want to be here. And Enjoy it and appreciate my goddamn life. I don't want to be obsessing about my ex. So it's not like I never thought about him again. That wasn't my experience, but it was. I think I'm likening it to your day five of the meditation retreat, where I just felt something. Something lift. Some. Some. Some sense of relief, some sense of moving forwardness. And then I journaled. I journaled a lot. I journaled a lot that trip. I remember journaling on the bus, on the bus back. And that really helped me move the energy, too, of just getting out. I think a lot of. I can relate to what you said about all the unexpressed things, all the things I wish that I'd said, all the things I wish that we'd had a conversation about. Like, all that repressed stuff, that suppressed stuff. I do think that that's part of why breakups can be hard, is if you really have all of this unexpressed emotion and energy. You know, there's part of your body that's kind of holding on to that. It's. It's been wanting to express, it's been holding, and it's still kind of holding. So for me, I found sort of journaling to be a way of expressing all these things that I'm like, I'm so angry with you about this and this and this. And I feel like we could have had a shot if you had, like, met me in this way. I kept asking you, you know, and I. Who knows whether I was right or wrong, but just expressing it in my journal and kind of helped. Helped me get out of that. And. Yeah. And then I just sort of got better from there. And I'll probably never forget that moment of just being with myself and being with the. Being with that rock and really just kind of eliciting something greater than myself to help me. Help me do this. Like, help me do this. And I have some family trauma with one of my parents, and I've done a similar exercise of just like, hey, I need help with this. Like, I've been. I've been trying to forgive this person for a really long time, and I can't get there. So please help me. I need help. I can't do it myself. And I think that's something that sometimes we shy away from talking about that higher power. Higher power or asking for help from something greater than ourselves. We talk a lot about connection and human connection and tribe and community, and that's really important. And this connection to something greater than ourselves, at least for me, has been a game changer in terms of particularly moving on from love relationships. Can you relate to that? I'm curious about your. Your experience around that particular.

Jason Lange: It's a good question. I think. I think that how. That, you know, how I might interpret that or my lens for that would be, like, the importance of, like, real ritual around consciously making some choices around how you're going to move forward. Right. Like asking for help and invoking a deeper ritual and a connection to something beyond yourself. Like that. That's a sacred way to deal with it, you know, thing and mark the transition, I think as well, of like, wow, yeah, I'm ready to let go of this and I'm going to put it, you know, put it into a rock. That's such a beautiful symbolic thing. And then to release that. I think that stuff really works. Really works. And, you know, not a lot of people, I think, are taught to do that, particularly here in America these days. Like, the importance of the kind of sacred rituals around that stuff. To do a closing, you know, to speak some words and to energetically, like, turn it over to, you know, to source, to a higher power, however you might want to phrase that.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I really like that. One of my favorite spiritual teachers, Tosha Silver, talks about a ritual from India around a coconut. So you take a coconut, a full coconut, a real coconut. It's got the husk and the everything inside. And in a similar way, you sit with the coconut and you just put all the energy around a subject. It can be a breakup, it can be your finances, it can be your career, whatever it is something that you have been struggling with. It can be, you know, someone in your life that's struggling with addiction. And you put all your energy and feelings around that subject into the coconut, and then you smash that coconut against a wall. And you are like, this is yours now, life. Like, I give this to you. Like, this is yours. It's. You're not holding on to all of it. It's not all yours, like, giving it back, kind of like all of that energy. And I really like what you said around ritual because I do think that there's. There is immense power in the ritual of that moment. And I believe that there's. That most of it is my intention around it. So my intention around. I intend to let this go now. And life kind of meets me in that. Like, there's like a something that happens in the quantum field of, like, boom. Like, there's all this energy. Like, I release this now. I release this now. Like, and so there's so much power from my being, but then I'm sort of met, met by life. And in my experience there's a sense of peace after, there's a sense of relief. And I think there's, there's. I think there's something, yeah. Symbolic about. In both cases you're throwing something, you know, either against a wall or into the ocean. But there's a sense of really kind of throwing it away. Like a sense of power and energy and determination that's more than just like moping around hoping it'll go away. Like, you know what I mean? Like the energetic difference is sort of like I'm taking an action to let this go rather than like I'm sort of kind of hoping it'll go away eventually.

Jason Lange: Yes, that's a great, great frame for just intention. Like I'm making a choice around this instead of just. Yeah, waiting, which almost never works in my mind.

Melanie Curtin: So yeah, I want to shift a little bit to what we've seen in our clients around this, this topic. And I, I'm curious especially to hear your thoughts around this. Yeah, this seems to be very. What's the word? Prevalent. And there's almost like this thing that happens of like the idealization. Idealizing. Idealizing the ex. And I'm wondering if you could maybe speak to that since you have talked to so many guys about it. What is that about? Why. Why are so many guys idealizing their ex in this way?

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's a definite, it's a definite thing where in particular how I see that show up in the conversations I have with some of the guys we work with is, you know, they really just kind of remember the good things and then don't remember so much the bad things. Like the actual friction that was making oftentimes the day to day relating challenging. And they just kind of look back with the rose colored glasses and like, oh, you know, will I ever find someone like that again or you know, we had something really special there in, you know what I tell a lot of the guys in what I think is somewhat wrapped up in some of that is this, I mean, and this shows up right in so many areas of life is just a scarcity mindset as well. This fear that there's not going to be someone else out there that can possibly attract them in the same way, be connected to them in the same way. And so there's this like gripping onto whatever connection they had with their ex, even if it was totally surrounded by dysfunction or just, you know, not compatibility.

Melanie Curtin: That'S such a good point. That's such a good point about the scarcity. Because if we, you know, if we could, if we really feel like there are a multitude of people we can connect with, then there isn't the same gripping. The gripping is, oh God, any connection. Like I need. It's like a. What's the word? Like a compulsive. Like I need connection, which I don't think is conscious, but it's like I need connection. I had connection. I must have that connection again.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I think that's a really good point about the space. That's. That's something that I notice. It gets messy. It gets messy and it gets undefined. And what I've seen in a lot of our clients, my clients in the past and everything is they're harboring hope. They're harboring hope. And so they'll. So they'll break up or she will initiate a breakup, whoever initiates the breakup. And then they'll be like, oh, yeah, but we're friends. It's cool. We're friends. I'm, you know, enjoying being friends with her, but when I'm. When I'm asking them about it, it's like, if you dig deep enough, it's like, I'm hoping that we'll get back together. I'm hoping that we'll sort of work it out. They're not necessarily naming it, but when you really dig down, there's. There's hope. And I remember one of my guys saying once, like, I gotta kill the hope. Like, the hope just has to die. We just have to kill the hope. And I think there's some truth to that. And like you said with the friendship, you know, I think that. Or, sorry, with the taking a break. You know, I really just want to reiterate that, that if you're serious about getting over your ex, you have to stop following them on social media and you have to stop texting them, you have to stop following them on social media, and you have to stop texting them. Like, kind of like Jason said, like, at least 10 to 12 weeks, no contact. Like, don't. Don't kid yourself into thinking that you can do both, that you can stay in contact and get over your ex. I've never seen it happen. I've never seen that happen. I've never seen that kind of smooth transition. If there are feelings involved, if there are real feelings involved, if you didn't really give a shit about the person, that's different. But that's not really the circumstances that we're talking about. If you're having a hard time getting over an ex, there were feelings involved. So, yeah, I think that's definitely one of the first things, especially in our. In our, you know, what's the word? Like, in our social media heavy world, you know, that's so much of our day, or it can be so much of our day. It's really important to kind of protect yourself and protect your process.

Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. Otherwise you're just ripping the band aid off over and over and over and over again. And it really does take that space, I think, like, really having some energetic space from each other for that healing to occur.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And then one of the other things that I feel like comes into play is community, tribe, and male friendships. So I think that the. What often happens, what I've seen often in, in our guys, is that they got into a codependent relationship. So they became codependent with a woman, and that sort of became their world, and it became her world too. So that there was this. This falling into each other, you know, and we've done another episode on Codependence, if anyone wants to check that out. But there's then isolation happens, so the couple becomes isolated and. And that person becomes their entire world. And so breaking up is really kind of like two things. It's breaking up from that person, but it's also like, oh, shit, like, who am I in the world? You know, where do I fit in? And you sort of. You can come. You can start to realize, like, wow, I really don't have any close friends in this city. Right. Like, I moved here for this person. We were, you know, we were together. We were codependent. And now I'm like, holy shit, I don't have any friends here. And so that period of the getting over the X is directly correlated to the strength of your community. And it's such a good time to, you know, Meet new people, get involved in activities you love and really kind of set the intention of. I want to have close friendships in this place. Like just set the intention and go out with that intention because I've seen it happen again and again. Where the intention to connect with others is a big part of when connection happens.

Jason Lange: So, so crucial, so important. And it well, ages makes healing easier, right when we're actually around other people and can just be with whatever's coming up for us when with other people instead of just, you know, as we guys are want to do as I often talk about lone wolfing it of just I'm going to sit at home and I'm going to suffer. Just doesn't help, doesn't help ruminating, ruminating, ruminating. And you know, there's a piece too around, you know. And why I think a lot of guys are attracted to our program when they've come out of a relationship, particularly if someone else ended a relationship with them, is sometimes there's. There's kind of that freeze of I don't know what to do next. Like I don't, I don't know how to heal. And one of the things I found in, you know, what we've created in this idea of the program we have is it just gives guys somewhere to put their attention. Like literally somewhere to put their attention other than their ex in terms of the work we have them do, the connections they build with other men and the time they spend with us in the course gives their attention somewhere to go and causes them to just start moving. Like literally to, you know, metaphorically, in a sense, take a step and then you take a step and then you take a step and suddenly you're moving towards something. And oftentimes that's where a lot of the energy starts to liberate around not being bound to that past relationship nearly as much.

Melanie Curtin: That's a really good point you made about the free state. I think that's a great kind of image. It does, it does feel like that. And I think, and that's one thing I want to just throw in here is when we get into romantic relationships, we can often experience attachment in the same way that we did when we were very young. And if we had any kind of trauma around that relationship with a caregiver, mom or dad, whoever, you know, a free state, there's fight or flight and then there's freeze. And when we undergo a trauma, often when we're young, we'll go into a free state because we don't know what else to do, and our nervous system does not have the capacity to do anything else. And that can be repeated at the end. You know, a rupture in a romantic relationship can cause us to go into freeze again. So I think that's a really accurate way of describing it. Of like, oh, my God, like, what do I do now? And the ruminating that you mentioned, I just want to highlight that. Of just like, the obsessive thoughts, like the obsessive thought loops that you don't really feel like you can control, they're just kind of happening, like, over and over and over and over and over. That's kind of a form of freeze. That can be a form of freeze because it's. It's a bit debilitating. Like, there's. You're not really doing anything else except. Except that. So stuck. You're stuck. Exactly. And I've. I've seen that a lot with the guys coming into the program. What I've been surprised about is how quickly that can shift. I've been really impressed with how quickly, you know, men can shift from that rumination to putting their attention somewhere else and. And really growing around it and kind of moving beyond that one relationship. And it's not like overnight, but I've been. I don't know about you. I've been, like, really impressed with some of the guys and how quickly they can, like, start to heal.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't have to take forever. You know, when you have the right container and when you have some structure. You know, I think that's one of the things we provide, too, is just when you come out of something like that, oftentimes, you know, in that freeze, there's just. I don't know what to do next. So having some structure just accelerates things. And, you know, we're pretty firm with our guys of, you know, feel it, feel it. Whatever it is, you got to feel it. You know, it's not going to help to just smoke weed, do the booze, play the video games. All those things we talked about are just delaying you, having to feel that. So the faster you can just go right into it, you know, be that journaling, be that ritual, be that. Be that being held in a container of other caring people, you know, particularly other men who can hear that story or hear those feelings. You know, I think oftentimes with the right presence, those thoughts that are ruminating can also shift when you just speak them out loud to someone who's listening, who's really listening and not attached, you know, to the outcome. Oftentimes there can be a lot of movement around that, which is really powerful. And, yeah, we've seen some guys make some pretty radical shifts in a pretty short time.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. The thing I want to highlight from what you just said is feeling the feelings, because I think there's a big difference between actually feeling. The word that keeps coming to me in the conversation is grief. Like, really feeling the grief. Because like I said, a lot of times our romantic relationships are an echo of what happened when we were young, especially our first few relationships, like in our 20s and, you know, all the way through our lives. But I see that. I see that often of just in myself as well. Like, the feelings are an echo of something from long ago. So actually feeling that grief that maybe you couldn't feel when you were young and feeling grief is ugly. You know what I mean? Like, it's the ugly cry. It's like growling. It's not pretty. And contained, I'm sure. You know, Jason, you lead shadow weekends where you hold men in a container, you know, eight to 12 guys, and I think you have one coming up in May. But it's not, like, pretty, like, healing when you really get down to it. It's messy. It's messy and ugly, but it works. And it's faster than avoiding it for years, you know, and smoking weed to not feel that rage or that grief or that shame. You know, those are, I think, are the big three that we see come up all the time. And I'm wondering if you can just speak a little bit to that of, like, this stuff looks really ugly, but it's faster than putting it off forever.

Jason Lange: Yeah. You know, there's an interesting phrase one of my mentors and teachers uses. I don't know where he got it from, but beautiful but not pretty. And what I mean by that is, like, you know, as a man, when I'm sitting in circle with men and I see a man really go in and be with it, and oftentimes, you know, it. Some of the guys I've worked with have never, you know, really, truly let their grief through. And it's a full body thing, you know, when we. Because oftentimes it's stacked as well. Particularly, I think, like, you're talking about in relationships, part of the pain that comes through in a breakup is some of the stacked grief from other moments of our life that got stuck in there. And there's like a log jam. And so when it comes out, you know, it's. It's snot, it's tears. It's wailing, it's like guttural. It's, you know, full body quaking sometimes like real weeping, not just kind of tearing up a little bit, where the, you know, the body's almost kind of convulsing and releasing. And it's not pretty. I do find it beautiful in the sense though, of, like, when I get to witness or be with a man who steps into that space willingly. It's always so touching to me. And it's amazing how fast the energy in a room can change when a man takes that leap and goes in, and how present everyone becomes and feels the realness and the authenticity and the just bravery for a lot of men to do that in a culture where we're not taught to do that. And that almost inevitably, when you have one of those beautiful but definitely not pretty cries, the other end of it, there's always more space. There's always more space. Doesn't mean there won't be more waves of that grief coming through, you know, for weeks, months, sometimes even years for some of this stuff. But there's more space. Like, literally, you can see guys. I see guys physiology change, their voices change, their faces change, how their standing changes, how they're breathing definitely changes when they go into this just raw, raw feeling, which is just an intense, intense grief.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I'm glad you brought up that word brave, because I just want to. I want to speak to how much I. I feel so much more trust for a man who can go there and who has done this kind of work. As a woman, I feel much more trust for that man. And it's not pretty like you said, but I agree that it's beautiful. And part of the reason that it's beautiful is because I believe that a man can only go as deep with me as he has gone with himself. So if he hasn't done the raw, real rage, grief, pain dance, I don't believe that he can hold me in mine. I don't believe that he can hold me in mine. And I want. I want a man who can do that. So I just want to say I agree. I think it's incredibly brave and it's also incredibly efficient. Our bodies were designed to be resilient and to go through these waves of grief and pain and rage. And then, like you said, kind of get to the space, get to the peace, release, shake it off, become more present and available. And I've seen again and again and again, and I'm thinking of one of our clients in particular, is that as a guy Goes through this. He starts to attract different kinds of women. He starts to attract women that are more able to meet him in his full self. And I'm thinking of. Yeah, one of our clients. I've seen incredible growth over the course of. I don't even think it's been a year. I think it's been like 10 months. And he recently met a woman that he's, like, pretty in love with. So there's a lot of like. What's the word? Like, prizes on the other side, kind of.

Jason Lange: Right.

Melanie Curtin: Like, there's a lot of. There's a lot of good that happens when we finally sort of feel all that uncomfortable shit and then. And then move past it. Which in a way, a breakup can be a really big gift of helping us get there. Quote, unquote, get there. Right. Because that pain, that raw pain of a breakup, if you really go into those depths of it, man, there's a lot of gold on the other side of that.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's just so spot on. My teacher, Robert, he phrases this, which is so apt for these breakups in this time you're talking about is the way to end your suffering is to actually enter your pain. So, you know, and pain is just. It's just sensation. It's like literally data in our bodies. And the suffering comes from when we attach meaning to it or we resist it. You know, that's where we get stuck in those ruminations. But when you really just go into that raw sensation or grief in this case, which can actually feel like overwhelm, because it is, in a sense, your nervous system is overwhelmed and it needs to release. Release that overwhelm and create space on the other end that you just have to do it, you know, I think we've all probably seen people who you can feel, you know, at certain ages in life where people are carrying something in their body and it starts to change their physiology. And you can notice it. You know, I certainly notice it the more I've done this work and the more sensitive I've become and the ways I hold some things in my body and that the only way, you know, one of the things I've been telling one of the guys recently is just that, like, the only way to move past a feeling is to feel it.

Melanie Curtin: Like, yeah.

Jason Lange: You can delay it, you can try to numb it. You can do all the strategies you want in your life, but the only way to release and move through a feeling is. Is to feel it and to be with it. And for, you know, I can say, I get. For A lot of us guys, that's really intimidating. Like, you know, a lot of guys we work with and a lot of the guys that have been into my weekends, you know, they will actually come to me and say, like, I can't cry. I wish I could cry. Like, I haven't been able to cry in years. And what I would just speak to on that is a lot of times this type of grief that we're talking about, it's created, you know, like Mel was saying, in terms of some of our young attachments and early relationships, it's created in the relational field, meaning it's created in interactions with other, with other people. And so oftentimes it can only be healed in that same dynamic. Now the beautiful thing is the, the, the grace of God we've been given is it doesn't have to be healed with that exact person that caused it. Meaning another loving presence can often be enough. You know, where you can. Like I've had guys and I've done things where I've had conversations with people, you know, they, they literally just kind of hold the space of that person and I get to speak towards that, or I have guys speak towards that. And it is amazing how well that works to shift some of the energy and cause some of the healing and that some of the actual grief in our nervous system particularly. I think for some of us guys, it's actually much easier to release and to go there when you are in a group or in a container with others, particularly if there's some just genuine presence, non judgment and at the appropriate times, just a little touch. You'd be amazed how much sometimes just me putting my hand on a man's chest and boom, the release, it just comes. The body knows what to do then and the grief just wells up and it comes out and things start to shift. So, you know, if there's anyone that's listening, if any of you guys are like, well, I don't know how to do that. You know, it's part of the reason Mel and I have a program for men that's a group program. It's part of the reason I do group weekends. Is it? There's just something about that alchemy that accelerates feeling in my, in my real experience.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, and I really love that part about it. You know, let's say there was a trauma that happened in your past with, with one of your parents. It's like trauma happens often with someone and healing happens with someone. It's relational. Right. And just a quick example of that from My week, I had a very intense week. Some very intense stuff happened and I was holding a lot for some loved ones in my life. And I like to do sound purging in my car to help me ground and release energy. And it just sort of sounds like a very, very loud ohm for me. So I do. It's called sound purging and I'll do that in my car so that I don't bother anyone because I'm extremely loud. So I was doing sound purging and some other stuff, but I showed up at this cafe and there was a man that I am friends with there and I hadn't cried about the situation and that's unusual for me. It had been four or five days of intensity and I hadn't cried at all. And he gave me a hug and I just like fell apart. Like as soon as he gave me the hug, I started to cry and he just held me probably for like a good five minutes, just holding, you know, and I finally kind of like could get there and let go. And I think it was what you were talking about of. It needed to, for me, it needed to be relational. And it reminded me of this part of Grapes of Wrath where the family had come from the Dust bowl, which was very traumatic. And they were road tripping west, which was also kind of traumatic. Really poor, Very, very poor. Kind of like not treated well along the way. A lot of just hardship. They get to California, they're at this, you know, campsite with other families and they're camped next to this family, this family next to them offers them soup and then kind of listens to their story. And that's when they fall apart. It's when the kindness comes. Like they could tolerate all the bullshit, all the other stuff, like they were totally fine, very stoic, nobody emoted. But as soon as there was kindness, they just fell apart. And that was exactly my experience in that cafe of like, I've been holding it together. I've been organizing a lot of stuff, kind of like, you know, doing a lot, handling a lot, holding a lot. And then as soon as someone that was more grounded than me, that was kind, that cared about me, just basically looked at me and held me, I was like, totally all came out.

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally spot on. I mean, it's, you know, these releases, these emotional releases we're talking about, particularly, I think, around, around grief and well, a lot of things, truth be told, but often come when you're sourced in safety, you know, when the safety is there of, oh, I can let Go now I can literally let go and stop holding. Stop holding this. And, you know, you and I, in our program, we teach men a lot about our nervous systems and how our nervous systems work in relationship to emotions and holding and presence. And, you know, a lot of what we're doing in this type of group work or in the container you and I create with the men we work is we're actually loaning our nervous systems. You know, when we're doing deep work of, like, actually, I'm here, and I've got you, and I'm not going anywhere. So you can let go. You're safe right now. You don't have to hold. You don't have to hold it. And particularly for a lot of men, you know, so much of our kind of programmed masculine culture is you got to hold all the time. You got to hold it together, hold it together, hold it, holds it together, right? That's what a man is. He grins. It grins through everything and pushes forward. But the truth is, every great male leader I know allows himself to be held at some point by other men, by professionals, by their loved ones, because we all need to release. We all need to have that just clearing. And it comes like you experienced when someone else can just hold that space for you, even if it's just a hug in a cafe, and it's like, boom, Your nervous system's like, ah, okay, right now I can let go of this.

Melanie Curtin: Absolutely. And this person. Yeah, this person can run. Run that energy down into the ground. Like, this person is not in crisis. And so this person can hold what I can't hold anymore. And they care about me. They care about me. You know, that. I think that's one of the. The magical pieces of any, you know, whoever you work with, you know, if it's a somatic therapist or whoever it is, is the feeling of being cared about. That feeling of, I'm loved, I'm cared about here. That is just a game changer. You know, they did this big study about therapy modalities and, like, which modality is the best. And basically what they came to was, it's actually not so much about the modality. It's, does the person feel loved by the therapist? That's like, that's the key, is love in the end. And I love it. Out of all the guys in our program, and I feel like that's. I'm like, I just love you. I just. I just really care. And I feel that from you. You too. And I think there's just something magical about that of just being held by someone who, like you said, kind of lends their nervous system and cares about.

Jason Lange: You, you know, just gives a shit, as simple as it is. And you know, there's one thing I sometimes get from I think guys in particular that I've heard and just want to speak to this very quickly of the like, well, I don't know if I can trust it because you know, you and I, we don't work for free. You know, there's a container we set and it often actually generally always involves an exchange. And so there's like a, oh, but then I can't trust the love, which is real, that we speak to. And you know, one of the things I've been telling some of the guys is actually it's a way to set a container that actually in some sense ups. Ups the ability for other. For your nervous system to let go. Because it's not actually a two way relationship in those moments, like I'm literally holding space for our clients, you hold space for men. And part of what allows us to do that is that interaction, that container is one way at that time. Like they don't. We don't walk in there and be like, oh, I had a really shitty day, can you help me with this? Right. Like that all gets put to the side of like, while I'm here, my attention is on you. And you can let go of having to take care of me, which is such a game changer for some of the men I've worked with when they really let that sink in of like, you don't have to take care of me right now. I'm just here for you. And then, you know, that love is so legit and so real. And yeah, I mean, I just, I'm so honored every, every week when I get to work with our guys. It's just, it's so kick ass.

Melanie Curtin: I know, me too. I think that's a really good point about, you don't need to take care of me. This is not about me, this is about you. And that's the same in a therapeutic relationship. And something I want to toss out here since you did bring up finances, which I think is important. It doesn't matter whether it's our program or any other program, but I think what's being spoken here is getting some support is a really good idea. Especially after a breakup because you're so raw and vulnerable. Like there's so much good that can come out of that. It's such a rich period of time. It's almost like Something to take advantage of.

Jason Lange: And so, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a. It's an incredibly rich moment, which, truth be told, for some men is the only moment that will really cause them to reflect. Like to really reflect. What am I doing? And that window doesn't last forever. So when you're in it, you know, take that vulnerable step and reach out, find someone. It doesn't have to be us. Just turn into that in that moment. Because there is so much gold there.

Jason Lange: Connection in your life. So there's. There's one last thing I just got to throw out there that I think is actually pretty important, that I have had some pretty frank conversations with some of the guys we've worked with, particularly when they are coming into the program out of a relationship that they did not end and they are maybe still clinging onto. The hope is, you know, in this moment, if you step into something like this, you know, I'm going to change. I'm going to take the growth. It has to be for you, like it has to be for yourself, regardless of your ex. There's this thing that, you know, I've had to call out a number of Times where if you're joining, if you're changing yourself to get her back, it almost never works. Like, it's. It never quite results in the transformation you want as a man. And the. The way I've just seen that chemistry work with the ex, they just know. They just know, like, you're doing it for me, not for you. And it's. It's just. It's so subtle. But it's gotta be for yourself that I want to take ownership back of my life, and I want to have a better life regardless. I want to live more fully. I want to live more in feeling, and I want to have more community in my life for my own sake. If you can step into that and fully let go, you know, magic can happen, but it's gotta be for yourself.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I think that's a really, really important point. And I really just thought it was amusing when you said, like, she can tell. There's just. There's some way, right, that we. We are attuned to each other as humans, and we can just. We can just tell. So it's not gonna work if you're like, oh, well, I'll just do this thing and fix myself and then she'll want me. Nope, not really how it works. But if it's like, I don't always.

Jason Lange: Believe me, but it's true.

Melanie Curtin: Right. But if it's like, I want a better life, I want a better way of relating with women, that was painful, what I just went through. I don't want that to happen again. I've got to figure this out. I want to figure this out. I'm ready. I'm committed. That will work. That does work. We see that work all the time. Yes.

Jason Lange: It's just. It's a very important distinction that, you know, and oftentimes that's the very feedback. Some of the men have gotten too, like, I don't want to be the only thing bringing joy in your life, or I need you to have, you know, something going on. And so if you go and join a program just to get your woman back, it just doesn't work. But if you're like, fuck, I want to take ownership of my life. And, yeah, I want to not experience that again. It's amazing. It's amazing how fast transformation in the right container, in the right structure, with the right support and the right tribe can happen.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I'm always. I'm honestly constantly surprised when you watch guys to go through. And in 10 weeks, I'm like, holy shit. You're like a different Guy like you, you know, stand up straighter, you've lost weight, you're getting out more. You're, you know, writing songs. You're. I mean, you're going on dates. You're. It's just, you're. Wow. I'm constantly amazed, honestly, constantly amazed at how much it, you know, that can happen in such a short time when you're really willing to do it. So we're gonna start to wrap up here. And Jason, I know in case people are interested in our program in particular, you created a link. Can you remind me of that?

Jason Lange: Yes. So, actually, the best thing for them to do would be go to Evolutionary Men, Dearmen, and that'll kind of bring you to my webinar and guide you towards how we can connect and how you can work with Mel and I. So, yeah, Evolutionary Men.

Melanie Curtin: And then if you are interested in 12 step programs, that's really easy. You just Google Codependents Anonymous or Sex and Lev Addicts Anonymous, and then your area. And that'll come up. That wraps up another episode of Dear Men. Thank you for listening. If you want to reach out, we would love to hear from you. We're on Instagram and Twitter at Dearmen Podcast. That's Earmen Podcast or Facebook. We have a group Dear Men Podcast. We also have an email address, dearmen podcastmail.com if you want to join the Big Sexy Data Set, the community of people who regularly respond to the surveys that we talk about on this podcast, just email us at that address, dearmen podcastmail.com and we will set you up. Have a sexy day.