I had an incredible conversation on Shift Talking with Davina Hayne, diving into what actually happens when men come together to do the real work. We covered a lot of ground, from the emotional loneliness so many men are experiencing to what it looks like when guys finally find a space where they can be fully themselves.
One thing that stood out to me in this conversation was talking about how women partners can struggle when men actually start opening up. I see this all the time. A woman spends years asking her partner to be more vulnerable, more present, more emotional. And then when he finally does it, there's this discomfort that shows up. It's not about blame at all. It's about recognizing that we all carry conditioning around what masculinity is supposed to look like, and when a man steps outside those old stories, it can shake up the whole dynamic.
We also got into the physical piece of men's work, why in-person groups matter so much, and how skin-to-skin contact and embodied presence create the kind of safety that men rarely experience anywhere else. This isn't about sitting around in a circle sharing feelings for the sake of it. It's about nervous system regulation, learning how to be with uncomfortable emotion, and building the capacity to show up differently in relationships.
The conversation touched on sex and intimacy too, how many men use sex as their only access point for connection and vulnerability. When that's the case, everything gets channeled through sexuality, and it loses its actual purpose. Learning to access emotional intimacy outside of sex changes everything.
If you're a man feeling isolated, stuck, or like something's missing, this conversation might resonate. If you love a man who's struggling, this might help you understand what he needs that you can't give him, no matter how much you want to.
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Jason Lange: Hi hi, hi and welcome to Shift Talking. I am Davina Hayne, your mental health coach and professional friend, here to help you build a life that is un fuck withable. Welcome finally to my conversation with Jason Lange. Kicking off the first guest episode of June, which is Men's Mental Health Month. Jason Lange is a men's embodiment coach, group facilitator and evolutionary guidelines dedicated to helping men deepen their self awareness, clarify their purpose and enrich their relationships. He and I were able to really dive deep into what masculine grief looks like. How men can can really regulate their nervous systems, how men can experience true sense of intimacy. It was an absolute pleasure to talk to him and I cannot wait for you to hear his insights. They need to be happening more. We need so much more of his voice out there and I hope you look into who he is, what he's doing and either join one of his groups if you are a man, or if you love a man, anyone in your life, encourage them to join his as well. So here's Jason. Hi Jason. Welcome to Shift Talking. How you doing?
Host: I'm doing great. So excited to be here.
Jason Lange: Good, good. I'm so happy to have you here. I of course looked into everything that you're doing and I've been very excited, very much looking forward to having you here and talking to you about everything that it is that you're doing. I don't think enough men are doing it and so I'm so excited to have you here and introduce you to everyone listening.
Host: Awesome. Yeah. Thank you for helping me get the word out. I totally agree. Yes.
Jason Lange: Well, let's start with just where this all started.
Host: I'm a men's embodiment coach, and I call. I say evolutionary guide, but really just a men's coach. And I help men with dating, relationships, purpose, work, mental health, emotional health, all of that. And in particular, I'm very passionate about getting men into community with each other and the idea that I really think every man should be in a men's group for the myriad of benefits it can provide men, particularly emotional and mental health. But my journey to doing this really is my journey. So, you know, it all started for me as a white guy, raised in the Midwest of the United States, kind of lower middle class, you know, had all my basic security needs met. But like a lot of people, as I became an adolescent and started to kind of leave my family unit, started to realize, hey, there's some things I would. I was raised a little differently than some other people, and there's some things that just work differently about me. And for me, at first, that really came to a head with, I'm heterosexual. And so as I hit puberty and I was interested in girls, I just had no idea how to talk to them. My body would get all clammy, I'd get sweaty. I'd feel really awkward. And it was a very painful experience for me that really kickstarted my growth and journey to, like, okay, I see other people doing this without a problem. So, like, what's going on? And it started a long journey for me that really culminated in terms of things starting to shift for me in my mid-20s when I got exposed to two things. Men's work and men's groups and somatic therapy, and had a huge awakening in my nervous system and realizing the many ways I was neglected. And suddenly all these patterns became clear about why I was uncomfortable. And then I just stayed with all that work and because it was the one thing that was really changing me, frankly, in terms of how I was showing up and the experiences I was having in life. And I was in men's groups for years, and at one point, I just kept talking about him because I was like, hey, I'm doing this thing. I love it. It's changing my life. It's so great. I love the guys I'm with. And then I had a lot of men asking me. I was living in Los Angeles at the time, and we met One of the guys in my group was a therapist. We met in his office and we could only fit eight bodies, literally just eight bodies. So guys would ask and like, we don't have any room. But that inspired me to start leading groups. So I started leading some groups out of my living room in Mid City LA back in like 2017 and just putting them on meetup.com and getting all kinds of men coming through and often quite a bit of pain and realizing, wow, there's a huge need here. And so I really shifted to, okay, I love doing this. I feel really grateful every time I get to work with men in this way and there's just not enough of it. I got really lucky to be exposed to this work in my twenties and most men aren't. And the stats are pretty dire, you know, for a lot of men these days in terms of isolation and mental and emotional health and suicide rates and addiction, like, it's pretty bleak for, for a lot of guys. And I really think this kind of work that I'm so passionate about is one of the big antidotes.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I hear that and I completely agree. You know, there's, there's so much emotional loneliness that we see men experiencing. And so I'm wondering how you got exposed to it and was there any resistance on your end when you first heard about it or what was that like for you?
Host: Yeah, how I first came across the work is actually really interesting because the, the two things we're going to combined in that I had actually been around maybe 25 or 26. I started seeing my first just normal talk therapist, which was a huge edge for me in my family system. Like no one ever did that. And it was really useful of just getting comfortable kind of talking. But it turns out my protection mechanisms were extremely sophisticated, so, meaning I knew how to kind of talk my way through a session without really having to get vulnerable. And, you know, I was in there for about a year, year and a half, and had been in a men's group at the time for about six months. And a facilitator came in an older man who had been a therapist, been doing work for a long time, lots of men's groups. He guided us, particularly in some types of shadow work. And I did a session with him in our group and within 10 minutes of working with him, I was on my back. I had my arms up in the air and I was crying out, hold me, hold me in tears, just full body tears. And I got up from that and I was like, okay, what the Hell was that, like, what just happened? I'm not someone who had a lot of access to my emotions. I was kind of bewildered. I felt amazing, in a sense, having moved a tremendous amount of emotional energy. And it got me hooked, in a sense, when I started to connect the dots of wow, yeah. The neglect I experienced in my family was around touch and any kind of emotional connection. Just no sense of interiority, no ability to really kind of talk about what's happening inside. And really, since I was an infant and turns out that under connected part of me was the part that was getting, you know, so freaked out anytime I was around women in particular, but even to some extent, men, I was never really a lot of guy. I had a lot of guy friends, but, you know, they'd, like, horseplay and wrestle and just. That was not in my DNA because I just didn't have a lot of these touch receptors kind of online. And so once I experienced that, I was like, okay, what is this? I need to know more. And I went in deeper. And in a sense, I'm very into the work. And even though I lead this work, Yeah. I still hit resistance all the time in terms of avoiding certain emotions or feelings and then coming back through these practices and like, oh, yeah, there it is again. I was doing the same thing. So I definitely had some resistances. But I would say my experience and maybe a lot of the men that end up working with me is by the time we get there, we're in so much pain. It's like, I'll do. I'll try anything. I will literally try anything. So in that sense, there wasn't a whole lot of resistance once I, like, got into the room and he guided me there. But a lot of men, you know, are scared in a sense of just getting into these emotional places or feeling certain feelings in their nervous system and particularly doing it in front of other men that. That's often been shamed or labeled as weak or, you know, literally been bullied for that kind of stuff. Many, many men I work with. And so it's like kind of double vulnerability. There's the actual feeling itself. And then, wow. In a context of other guys where, you know, from a young age, we're taught we have to be tough and have this bravado and be macho and kind of all that crap that gets layered onto so many men.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And you touched on a really important. You were in therapy to do the work and still just couldn't allow yourself to or wasn't ready or capable or however we want to label that and we see that so often right. That we are kind of going here because we want some level of improvement. And then in order to get there it might just be that the approach, the provider, whomever that might be, there's just still that lack of safety or comfort or just knowing that you're there to do that and their job is to like pull it out of you. It can feel like I'm losing if I let you.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Was that. How did you come through that? How. What was that like for you? Was. Were you self referred at the time?
Jason Lange: Yeah. And also hearing that within this group right there, isn't that all eyes on you part either? And so maybe it can feel more voluntary as opposed to expectant, like it is in a one to one kind of environment.
Host: Yeah, yeah. There's definitely at least the work, you know, through that teacher and now that I embody is we never force anyone to go anywhere. Right. Because it just doesn't work. It does not work. But we can kind of leave the breadcrumbs and say, hey, if you want to step in here, we'll be right here with you. You know, you don't have to go into this alone. And that often does start to evoke something. And I really love again, working in groups, particularly on retreat, because it just keeps deepen. One man goes and another man goes. Then another man goes and another man goes. And suddenly it's like, wow, we're. We're not going to leave anything unexplored or unhidden. And it creates like a permission really, which a lot of men have just never had to. To feel.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And so are you predominantly doing these in. In person?
Host: I do combination, so I do a lot of hybrid or a lot of virtual work. I do some live retreats and then I do some hybrid work. The, the kind of model I'm working now that seems to be very effective, particularly because I do get a lot of guys who. A lot of their trauma is from other men. Yeah, right. It's from fathers, brothers, bullies. So Coming into a group already kind of puts them on guard. And what we're finding works really well is guys getting to know each other for six or seven weeks, virtually meeting once a week. So you're kind of in the safety of your own home. You have your own space. Right. You get to start kind of revealing and doing some deep work. But there's a way then, okay, I get to then unplug and I'm in my space, and it's very safe, in a sense. And then we bring them into a live retreat where we get together and there's already some trust built and rapport built. So we get to go super deep, super fast. And I've been frankly blown away by how much is possible virtually. Like, it's pretty incredible, like, how deep you can go. And there's definitely something special about being in the room when we can literally just get our bodies involved. Because, you know, again, for a lot of men, there's just a complete malnourishment of healthy touch in their lives. And just that alone. Bringing some of that online starts to totally rewire men of like, whoa, I didn't know how much I was missing that and how much I need that. And turns out a little bit of touch and my nervous system starts to regulate itself. Right. Like, all these things that were issues, they kind of. My body kind of calms down and then it's like clarity emerges.
Jason Lange: Yeah. One, that makes complete and utter sense. And two, you know, when we have children, the first thing we do is skin to skin contact. And then as we age, it's like we forget that that's how we regulate that. That's needed for all sorts of intimacy and safety. So for men who might hear this and say, like, that's too foofy, that's too soft. Right. Which I'm sure is many. Right. I am a firm believer that it's only a lack of expectation or knowing what to expect. That, of course, is the unknown that makes us fear it. So are you open to sharing a little bit about what the process might look like? So if anyone is kind of ready to dip a toe in or even allowing themselves to be a bit curious, we can let them know what they're kind of in for sure.
Jason Lange: Right. I guess I'm wondering how women come into play here, right? Like, there's. There's so many of us, myself included, who just tried to fix my husband in every way that I could, tell him that I'm safe, do everything that I can to show him that I'm safe, these types of things. And of course, recognize that there were times that I said it and didn't match it. Right. Naturally.
Host: And.
Jason Lange: And there can be that of men don't seek other men typically to do this work and then they seek women. And we can't help but recognize that especially if they have any sort of wounding from women or you know, certain perceptions or narratives of women, I then of course become an embodiment of that.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Absolutely. Yeah.
Host: What I have seen is there's a total different feeling state of, hey, here's where I'm at and my men are helping me figure it out. I'm sharing so you can know what's happening in my inner world. And I want to be close to you and I don't need you to fix it for me. Right. I'm open to collaboration, but like, they've got me, I'm working on this. You know, sometimes I, I use guys we love, you know, metaphors and analogies. The.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And yet I don't know what to do with it. I'm holding him to standards that I consciously, logically know aren't fair, aren't right.
Host: And.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: Grind, grind, grind. A lot of the. Traditionally, you know, it's obviously changing, but a lot of the most physically dangerous jobs have always been held by men. Like toxicity or workplace danger. Just that, you know, your body is not important. It's just the signal men often get for all kinds of reasons.
Jason Lange: And what you can provide, right?
Host: Yes, exactly.
Jason Lange: But everything becomes about providing for others at the sake of you.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I think a lot of this comes down to a willingness to tolerate being uncomfortable.
Host: Yes.
Jason Lange: You know, we, of course, where we've progressed now as a society of quick fixes, instant gratification, and these types of things that I previously was very anxious, insanely anxious. And I. If my husband was. If I got a different vibe from him for a second, I'd like, what's wrong? What's wrong?
Host: What's going on?
Jason Lange: You mad at me? What's going on? What do you think about what happened? You know, and it's. It's more so just me, of course, trying to protect myself from him being upset with me, and there's nothing I can do about it. And I feel powerless anyway. And so there's that part. And then it. Yeah, it gets to this friction part of I want this. I don't recognize what that will look like, though. And so when I present it to you, I've already built it in me, like in my expectation of how you'll respond. And you're gonna give me credit and you're gonna be proud of me and all of this. And instead you're getting this, like, okay, never mind. No. And so that willingness to be uncomfortable and that ability to tolerate the discomfort in the short term so that she can say, there's something that I find uncomfortable about this and I gotta go work on that. I have to figure out what this is. And he can do the same. It's just such a powerful thing when both of us recognize that if our dynamic is problematic, we're both contributing to some degree. And so long as each, every one of us is viewing ourselves as a work in progress, in addition to just pointing out the work that other people need to do, or maybe instead of pointing out the other work, there becomes this more. This deeper ability to tolerate the discomfort temporarily Knowing that it won't go on in perpetuity.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And there are these times that we just need a little bit of perspective and for someone to hold a mirror to us and show me a blind spot that I wasn't aware that I had. And it's. It's a hard thing to teach and it's a hard thing to encourage when there is such a deep level of resistance. And so just this morning, my husband's going to be coming on the podcast soon, and we're going to be talking all about our experiences and our challenges and, you know, what sparked his sobriety and really just, you know, sharing so much of that vulnerability. And this morning I asked him if he's able to kind of put into words what the experience was like for him to make this massive pivot to shift all of these ways that he views not only me, but himself and his position in the world and what it means to be masculine and what it means to kind of man up. And I recognize that for. For men that I'm working with that have narratives about women generally about being naggy, about withholding sex and weaponizing sex and, you know, all sorts of those things, even though sometimes we nag and sometimes we do weaponize it. Like, let's be honest, there is that part that I'm in this kind of in between processing position where I'm wondering whether I can even be that person for some of these men. I don't know that I can just based on biases that I sometimes bring into session that sometimes they do as well, and whether there is kind of this overriding of the concepts from landing because of who they're coming from. And so I was asking my husband this morning, like, can you work on, like, how you'd want to conceptualize this, how you would articulate the shift that you made and how that happened, where his previous group of friends that were kind of pretty much no longer in his life, as soon as he got sober and he didn't go to bars and hang out in bars anymore, and they didn't really know what to do with. There was this shift that when my husband made it, shortly after we became parents, he started, you know, we started viewing ourselves a bit differently. And they would tell him he's pussy whipped and that like, oh, she must be running the show and she wears the pants and these types of things. And all he could say at the time was, I respect her. And so that's what I'm doing. It's not that I'm pussy whipped. It's that I watched this woman push this child out of her, and it was insane. And I respect the fuck out of that. And, like, I'm gonna go home and help with the baby. You know, there were these types that came through and to your entire ethos is that. That's the point, is that he felt the loneliest he had felt when he was making these shifts, surrounded by the men that were supposed to.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Support him in that and encourage him in that and evolve parallel with him. And that felt even more lonely.
Host: So.
Jason Lange: So then I could see this, like, push and pull of, okay, well, do I continue doing this work and get closer to my wife and my children and that side, or do I pull back and stay within this friend group that I've grown up with that were pivotal parts of my existence? And so do you have. Do you have suggestions or advice for men who are kind of recognizing that they're ready to do some of the work and also fearful of being abandoned by the rest of the men in their lives when that happens?
Host: Yeah, it's a painful transition. I. I think it's a real one. Right. I mean, the part of what you're speaking towards is once we step on to a path of growth, in a growth orientation, it feels really different to be around people who aren't. Yeah, right. So as we start to take responsibility for our pain as men and make shifts when other people aren't. You know, my experience was it became a lot less attractive to be spending time with them because I was like, this is not actually what I want to be doing. And, you know, the default mode, I think, particularly for men, this is what can be so big for the types of groups I'm speaking about is the default mode most men connect around is what I call triangulation. So me and you are going to build connection with each other by having our attention on some third thing, literally a tv, a sports game, darts, fishing, building something. And, you know, there's a time and place for that that can be totally great. But what that doesn't do, and I get this from countless men, is, yeah, I just spent the night or I spent the weekend with my buddies, and they come home feeling just as lonely as when they left because nobody actually talked about anything real.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: Right. I might be. My wife's about to leave me. I didn't say anything. Right. You know, like, that this kind of stuff happens all the time in that shift to being in community, particularly with other men who, hey, our connection is going to come from. I'm going to put my attention on you, you're going to put your attention on me. And we're going to ask each other what's going on in life. Where are you in pain, what are you wanting to move towards? Where do you feel stuck? That changes things tremendously. And there is a gravity, you know, unfortunately, like there's a gravity to growth and people. Again, this is a great example of what you kind of shared with spouses. But oftentimes people say they want us to change and then we start to and they want to pull us right back 100% because they have a concept of who we are that is part of their identity. So if we start to shift their identity starts to get confronted with, well, I, should I be spending more time with my kids now? I don't even want to think about that. Like you're pussy whipped.
Jason Lange: Yes.
Host: Right. You just, you go to the attack essentially. And some guys can make that leap in community when we start getting real. And this is one of the painful types of vulnerability I tell most guys is you don't know until you try with your friends. You don't know who you can go deeper with. And they're going to show up. And there are some men that are just desperate and the second realness comes online, they have tons to share.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: And you know, I get this all the time in groups. I lead that. Once men start to get that vibration, they start taking it out into their world. And not everybody meets them there, but sometimes they're shocked by. Wow. Is actually the guy who I don't know super well, but we just started talking. I had a guy just sharing about this the other day. You know, we were kind of friends, but I actually just started revealing some of the pain I was in around dating. And he totally met me and we went way deeper than I've ever gone with another man. And I was like, that's great. Other friends won't meet him in that. Yeah. And that becomes part of, you know, the decision we have to make as men when we start to grow is, yeah, who do we want to be investing our time in? People who respect our boundaries and our growth or people who don't. And I see lots of guys have to outgrow certain friend groups and why a lot of guys in myself in particular, most of my male community comes through men's work now. Because if I'm going to take time away from my family, it's got to be a pretty worth it.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Yeah, right.
Host: It's a big part of why I have the work I do. You think you can do it alone? Like you. If you're relying on willpower, that's gonna go like something cut you off in traffic and then there goes your whole plan for the day or ability to self regulate. Right. But when you're in community, in a culture of, hey, we're in a culture now where this is what we do, we're in a culture of, of growth and transformation and vulnerability, it changes a lot. You know, for me, it's just like, I don't even know how else I'd spend my time now. It's like if I'm not with my family, I'm doing some kind of deep connecting with amazing men, often in nature or transformational work. And that's valuable for me. But it's a real thing. And it can be extremely lonely for guys. Right. Because again, they might be just getting a sliver of connection from those kind of surface level relationships, but then the threat of taking that away is like, oh, there's nothing. Which is why it's so important to create these deeper spaces for men to turn towards.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I'm wondering what your perspective is on parenting when it comes to these things. So I work with primarily now parents and typically within the first like 10 years of parenting, but really at any point. And it's. It's not about helping them parent, it's more so about the parent. Right. Like how to do your own work and be the person that you really are kind of needing when you were growing up and allowing that for that to be the spotlight to be on them in such a good, positive way that then parenting doesn't feel so atrocious as, as it can be. And what we oftentimes see, is the husband, the father, still so seemingly unwilling to lean into the home, more slower paced life, prioritize his wife and his kids and still kind of want to golf constantly and still want to go on these guys trips and still meet them at the bar every Sunday. And there's a certain gap where it just, it. There's so much here that just can't come from me. And I recognize that. And I typically start these with like, I am a wife and a mother and I know that we both know this and, and here's where I'm recognizing where we do a poor job of trying to like hold you down so hard and become a mom to you that then it gets parentified and then you're a child rebelling against their mom and then who's punishing you and like putting you time out and grounding you totally. So how would you suggest that on both ends that their wives view them post baby and especially within the first like three to five years. And how would you talk to these men about either how to kind of lean into that existence or what that looks like? Because it's, there's a fine line between suggestion and, you know, them feeling coerced or manipulated.
Host: Yeah, so much here. I mean, it's such a transitional moment for men when they be. When we become fathers. You know, one piece of research I saw recently that just blew my mind was once a man becomes a father, his testosterone drops and it will never naturally recover to that high level again. And every time you have a kid, it goes down. And as you become a grandparent, it goes down. There's all kinds of great reasons for that. Right. Oxytocin is the bonding hormone and it's what allows you to, you know, care about your kids. But it has an impact on our identity and how we're showing up in the world that I think a lot of men are unprepared for. I was not prepared for. My wife and I are both entrepreneurs, work from home. You know, we're probably like 65, 45 on the split. Like I do a lot, as much as I can. And she still does more. You know, she breastfeed like she's doing more. But I do a lot.
Jason Lange: Sure.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I hear that. And there's so many different ways that I want to go with this. And we would quite literally be here all day. I really appreciate how you've not only shown up today, but how you've shown up kind of in this, in your entirety for men here. And there's, of course, going to be scrutiny and judgment that people placed upon you. And also, that's just part of our work, too, is just like, so do it. That's. That's perfectly fine. And I'm going to be over here doing. Doing pretty good and getting a good amount of sex going too. So there's. There's that part that I deeply respect what it is that you're doing. I find it to be incredibly courageous and unfortunately, so brave because this. And hopefully as we do more of this work, we will see this becoming more of the norm as opposed to the exception. And it really is just such a beautiful thing that you're doing, giving men somewhere to call home when they didn't quite have a safe one growing up. And I really appreciate you being here. Thank you so much for joining me. I'd love to have you back for maybe totally anytime. Ones about certain topics in particular, which I would really love to just like dive in deep with you and yeah, thank you so much for being here. Where could. Where can men find you? Are your groups closed for start and stop or how does that work?
Host: Yeah, best way to keep up with me and everything I'm up to is at my website, which is evolutionary.men. so not.combut.men. and on there, yeah, you can find all the different programs I'm doing. Some are virtual, some are hybrid, some are just, you know, in person retreats. I do have a program launching soon that's like. If you just want to get the experience of a men's group online, it's like a 12 week guided. It'll take you through, you'll get to know five other eyes really deep and in a really profound way that you can then continue on way past that if you want. Because yeah, my mission is basically, like I said, every man should be in a men's group. And I think if they did, they show up as better fathers, better husbands, in just more alive and less in pain. And we certainly need men who are connected to their hearts and their power right now in the world. You know, it's not either or. We need both right now. And one of the best ways to experience that is to see another man embody it. Right, like. Like you were talking about that dinner table of. Wow, there's a transmission to that. Didn't feel weak. I felt courageous. Like, felt real, felt deep. Right. He deepened that conversation in that room. And that's what us men can do when we're really in our full presence. We can bring things deeper. That's one of the greatest gifts we can provide. So, yeah, just head over to Evolutionary Men.
Jason Lange: Beautiful. Well, I'm sure there will be plenty of people joining. I'm. I'm very much supportive of everything that you're doing and I will share your information far and wide because it is so desperately needed. Absolutely. Thank you so much for being here. We'll speak soon.
Host: Yeah. It was a pleasure. Thank you.
Jason Lange: Thanks so much for listening in on my conversation with Jason Lange. These are incredible conversations that need to be happening more often. As always, this is all about your empowerment one shift at a time. You can find any of Jason's information linked below in the show notes. You know where to find me if you need me. Stay steady and I will see you on Sunday.
