I had an incredible conversation on Shift Talking with Davina Hayne, diving into what actually happens when men come together to do the real work. We covered a lot of ground, from the emotional loneliness so many men are experiencing to what it looks like when guys finally find a space where they can be fully themselves.
One thing that stood out to me in this conversation was talking about how women partners can struggle when men actually start opening up. I see this all the time. A woman spends years asking her partner to be more vulnerable, more present, more emotional. And then when he finally does it, there's this discomfort that shows up. It's not about blame at all. It's about recognizing that we all carry conditioning around what masculinity is supposed to look like, and when a man steps outside those old stories, it can shake up the whole dynamic.
We also got into the physical piece of men's work, why in-person groups matter so much, and how skin-to-skin contact and embodied presence create the kind of safety that men rarely experience anywhere else. This isn't about sitting around in a circle sharing feelings for the sake of it. It's about nervous system regulation, learning how to be with uncomfortable emotion, and building the capacity to show up differently in relationships.
The conversation touched on sex and intimacy too, how many men use sex as their only access point for connection and vulnerability. When that's the case, everything gets channeled through sexuality, and it loses its actual purpose. Learning to access emotional intimacy outside of sex changes everything.
If you're a man feeling isolated, stuck, or like something's missing, this conversation might resonate. If you love a man who's struggling, this might help you understand what he needs that you can't give him, no matter how much you want to.
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Jason Lange: Hi hi, hi and welcome to Shift Talking. I am Davina Hayne, your mental health coach and professional friend, here to help you build a life that is un fuck withable. Welcome finally to my conversation with Jason Lange. Kicking off the first guest episode of June, which is Men's Mental Health Month. Jason Lange is a men's embodiment coach, group facilitator and evolutionary guidelines dedicated to helping men deepen their self awareness, clarify their purpose and enrich their relationships. He and I were able to really dive deep into what masculine grief looks like. How men can can really regulate their nervous systems, how men can experience true sense of intimacy. It was an absolute pleasure to talk to him and I cannot wait for you to hear his insights. They need to be happening more. We need so much more of his voice out there and I hope you look into who he is, what he's doing and either join one of his groups if you are a man, or if you love a man, anyone in your life, encourage them to join his as well. So here's Jason. Hi Jason. Welcome to Shift Talking. How you doing?
Host: I'm doing great. So excited to be here.
Jason Lange: Good, good. I'm so happy to have you here. I of course looked into everything that you're doing and I've been very excited, very much looking forward to having you here and talking to you about everything that it is that you're doing. I don't think enough men are doing it and so I'm so excited to have you here and introduce you to everyone listening.
Host: Awesome. Yeah. Thank you for helping me get the word out. I totally agree. Yes.
Jason Lange: Well, let's start with just where this all started.
Host: I'm a men's embodiment coach, and I call. I say evolutionary guide, but really just a men's coach. And I help men with dating, relationships, purpose, work, mental health, emotional health, all of that. And in particular, I'm very passionate about getting men into community with each other and the idea that I really think every man should be in a men's group for the myriad of benefits it can provide men, particularly emotional and mental health. But my journey to doing this really is my journey. So, you know, it all started for me as a white guy, raised in the Midwest of the United States, kind of lower middle class, you know, had all my basic security needs met. But like a lot of people, as I became an adolescent and started to kind of leave my family unit, started to realize, hey, there's some things I would. I was raised a little differently than some other people, and there's some things that just work differently about me. And for me, at first, that really came to a head with, I'm heterosexual. And so as I hit puberty and I was interested in girls, I just had no idea how to talk to them. My body would get all clammy, I'd get sweaty. I'd feel really awkward. And it was a very painful experience for me that really kickstarted my growth and journey to, like, okay, I see other people doing this without a problem. So, like, what's going on? And it started a long journey for me that really culminated in terms of things starting to shift for me in my mid-20s when I got exposed to two things. Men's work and men's groups and somatic therapy, and had a huge awakening in my nervous system and realizing the many ways I was neglected. And suddenly all these patterns became clear about why I was uncomfortable. And then I just stayed with all that work and because it was the one thing that was really changing me, frankly, in terms of how I was showing up and the experiences I was having in life. And I was in men's groups for years, and at one point, I just kept talking about him because I was like, hey, I'm doing this thing. I love it. It's changing my life. It's so great. I love the guys I'm with. And then I had a lot of men asking me. I was living in Los Angeles at the time, and we met One of the guys in my group was a therapist. We met in his office and we could only fit eight bodies, literally just eight bodies. So guys would ask and like, we don't have any room. But that inspired me to start leading groups. So I started leading some groups out of my living room in Mid City LA back in like 2017 and just putting them on meetup.com and getting all kinds of men coming through and often quite a bit of pain and realizing, wow, there's a huge need here. And so I really shifted to, okay, I love doing this. I feel really grateful every time I get to work with men in this way and there's just not enough of it. I got really lucky to be exposed to this work in my twenties and most men aren't. And the stats are pretty dire, you know, for a lot of men these days in terms of isolation and mental and emotional health and suicide rates and addiction, like, it's pretty bleak for, for a lot of guys. And I really think this kind of work that I'm so passionate about is one of the big antidotes.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I hear that and I completely agree. You know, there's, there's so much emotional loneliness that we see men experiencing. And so I'm wondering how you got exposed to it and was there any resistance on your end when you first heard about it or what was that like for you?
Host: Yeah, how I first came across the work is actually really interesting because the, the two things we're going to combined in that I had actually been around maybe 25 or 26. I started seeing my first just normal talk therapist, which was a huge edge for me in my family system. Like no one ever did that. And it was really useful of just getting comfortable kind of talking. But it turns out my protection mechanisms were extremely sophisticated, so, meaning I knew how to kind of talk my way through a session without really having to get vulnerable. And, you know, I was in there for about a year, year and a half, and had been in a men's group at the time for about six months. And a facilitator came in an older man who had been a therapist, been doing work for a long time, lots of men's groups. He guided us, particularly in some types of shadow work. And I did a session with him in our group and within 10 minutes of working with him, I was on my back. I had my arms up in the air and I was crying out, hold me, hold me in tears, just full body tears. And I got up from that and I was like, okay, what the Hell was that, like, what just happened? I'm not someone who had a lot of access to my emotions. I was kind of bewildered. I felt amazing, in a sense, having moved a tremendous amount of emotional energy. And it got me hooked, in a sense, when I started to connect the dots of wow, yeah. The neglect I experienced in my family was around touch and any kind of emotional connection. Just no sense of interiority, no ability to really kind of talk about what's happening inside. And really, since I was an infant and turns out that under connected part of me was the part that was getting, you know, so freaked out anytime I was around women in particular, but even to some extent, men, I was never really a lot of guy. I had a lot of guy friends, but, you know, they'd, like, horseplay and wrestle and just. That was not in my DNA because I just didn't have a lot of these touch receptors kind of online. And so once I experienced that, I was like, okay, what is this? I need to know more. And I went in deeper. And in a sense, I'm very into the work. And even though I lead this work, Yeah. I still hit resistance all the time in terms of avoiding certain emotions or feelings and then coming back through these practices and like, oh, yeah, there it is again. I was doing the same thing. So I definitely had some resistances. But I would say my experience and maybe a lot of the men that end up working with me is by the time we get there, we're in so much pain. It's like, I'll do. I'll try anything. I will literally try anything. So in that sense, there wasn't a whole lot of resistance once I, like, got into the room and he guided me there. But a lot of men, you know, are scared in a sense of just getting into these emotional places or feeling certain feelings in their nervous system and particularly doing it in front of other men that. That's often been shamed or labeled as weak or, you know, literally been bullied for that kind of stuff. Many, many men I work with. And so it's like kind of double vulnerability. There's the actual feeling itself. And then, wow. In a context of other guys where, you know, from a young age, we're taught we have to be tough and have this bravado and be macho and kind of all that crap that gets layered onto so many men.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And you touched on a really important. You were in therapy to do the work and still just couldn't allow yourself to or wasn't ready or capable or however we want to label that and we see that so often right. That we are kind of going here because we want some level of improvement. And then in order to get there it might just be that the approach, the provider, whomever that might be, there's just still that lack of safety or comfort or just knowing that you're there to do that and their job is to like pull it out of you. It can feel like I'm losing if I let you.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Was that. How did you come through that? How. What was that like for you? Was. Were you self referred at the time?
Host: Yeah, I mean I had been seeing the therapist on my own. The job I had at the time had like a wellness package where you know, and I was like oh great, I want to take advantage of that. Taxes was feeling so stuck sitting in traffic squeezing into a parking spot all to squeeze in. Getting tax help during your lunch break. NowTaxes is a TurboTax expert who does your taxes for you while you go about your day getting real time notifications about their progress and the most money back guaranteed. Now this is taxes intuit turbotax see guarantee [email protected] guarantees only available with TurboTax experts. Real time updates only in iOS mobile app and I'm grateful for it. I got, I got, I did get a lot out of that but there was a certain embodied level that practitioner wasn't able to take me to in that time that this other work really started to. And I think there's been a lot of movement just in, in the work since then that you know, kind of the old school, just lay on the couch and talk about your problems. You know, that's kind of fallen away to a lot more embodied and somatic awareness I think even with a lot of talk therapists. But in this sense for me there was a lot of magic and for a lot of men there is an alchemy that can happen in groups because what happened for me and what I was part of was I wasn't the only one. And so it's like there, there becomes this kind of me and one of my partners I coach with, we call it, it's kind of a fancy term but the masculine vortex of what starts to happen when one man gets real and transparent and vulnerable and frankly quite courageous and goes somewhere in his nervous system or his, in his heart or in his feeling space that he's potentially never gone before. And it might be grief, it might be anger, it might be fear. So many manifestations but that when we see another man do it, it's like, oh, fuck, that wasn't weak. Like, wow, that guy is like brave. Wow. If he did that, maybe I can do something too. And then sometimes just one of my. You know, I really love working in groups because the other thing that, you know, can never predict is just the hidden connections underneath that so many men and you know, humans in general already have. But where one man will start stepping into his work. Right. In my case it was like neglect. Other cases with guys, it's abuse or hypercriticism or, you know, endless things. But it turns out, oh, that's a little bit like my experience. So seeing this man engage with his starts to actually make mine resonate. And it's almost like the pump is kind of primed. So I was a bit primed in that work and then there was just an incredibly deep and safe space held that my nervous system was like, okay, here's a place I can vocalize something or something can be released that I've been holding onto, you know, at that point for 20, 26 years. Really?
Jason Lange: Yeah. And also hearing that within this group right there, isn't that all eyes on you part either? And so maybe it can feel more voluntary as opposed to expectant, like it is in a one to one kind of environment.
Host: Yeah, yeah. There's definitely at least the work, you know, through that teacher and now that I embody is we never force anyone to go anywhere. Right. Because it just doesn't work. It does not work. But we can kind of leave the breadcrumbs and say, hey, if you want to step in here, we'll be right here with you. You know, you don't have to go into this alone. And that often does start to evoke something. And I really love again, working in groups, particularly on retreat, because it just keeps deepen. One man goes and another man goes. Then another man goes and another man goes. And suddenly it's like, wow, we're. We're not going to leave anything unexplored or unhidden. And it creates like a permission really, which a lot of men have just never had to. To feel.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And so are you predominantly doing these in. In person?
Host: I do combination, so I do a lot of hybrid or a lot of virtual work. I do some live retreats and then I do some hybrid work. The, the kind of model I'm working now that seems to be very effective, particularly because I do get a lot of guys who. A lot of their trauma is from other men. Yeah, right. It's from fathers, brothers, bullies. So Coming into a group already kind of puts them on guard. And what we're finding works really well is guys getting to know each other for six or seven weeks, virtually meeting once a week. So you're kind of in the safety of your own home. You have your own space. Right. You get to start kind of revealing and doing some deep work. But there's a way then, okay, I get to then unplug and I'm in my space, and it's very safe, in a sense. And then we bring them into a live retreat where we get together and there's already some trust built and rapport built. So we get to go super deep, super fast. And I've been frankly blown away by how much is possible virtually. Like, it's pretty incredible, like, how deep you can go. And there's definitely something special about being in the room when we can literally just get our bodies involved. Because, you know, again, for a lot of men, there's just a complete malnourishment of healthy touch in their lives. And just that alone. Bringing some of that online starts to totally rewire men of like, whoa, I didn't know how much I was missing that and how much I need that. And turns out a little bit of touch and my nervous system starts to regulate itself. Right. Like, all these things that were issues, they kind of. My body kind of calms down and then it's like clarity emerges.
Jason Lange: Yeah. One, that makes complete and utter sense. And two, you know, when we have children, the first thing we do is skin to skin contact. And then as we age, it's like we forget that that's how we regulate that. That's needed for all sorts of intimacy and safety. So for men who might hear this and say, like, that's too foofy, that's too soft. Right. Which I'm sure is many. Right. I am a firm believer that it's only a lack of expectation or knowing what to expect. That, of course, is the unknown that makes us fear it. So are you open to sharing a little bit about what the process might look like? So if anyone is kind of ready to dip a toe in or even allowing themselves to be a bit curious, we can let them know what they're kind of in for sure.
Host: I mean, in this instance, the kind of groups I was just talking about would be the shadow work groups I run, which are really. They're kind of the deepest groups I run, which are like, let's get right to the heart of it. Whether that's mindsets and thought patterns and beliefs, you're not even aware are running the show for you or really what it often is for most men is trauma of some kind, just meaning some experience they had in their life where it wasn't safe or possible, or they didn't have the tools or capabilities in that moment to fully digest and metabolize what happened. And you know, kind of from the somatic point of view, what happens then is that energy doesn't go anywhere. Right. And there's more and more research. You know, the platitude of the issues are in your tissues. We lock, we kind of lock this stuff in. And particularly for men, it's a big deal because the way we lock emotional content in, so anytime we don't want to feel something, right? So I always use the example of, you know, imagine a five year old boy and he just hurt himself. And I come in and I'm like, stop crying. How does the boy do it? Yeah, holds his breath, his whole body tightens up, just literally holds it in. And that's kind of how it works. You know, it's not quite that simple, but in some ways it is. And it turns out holding content like that takes a tremendous amount of energy. So, you know, an experiment listeners can do right now that I always say is like, so, yeah, just even sitting here, you can imagine, or not even imagine, but just tense up your body. So it's like you contract your biceps, your core, your shoulders, your legs. And at first it's like, okay, and now if I'm like, hold this for an hour, pretty quickly it gets exhausting. It takes energy to hold things inside. And so the shadow work, this deep stuff I do is about, okay, how do we go right towards what we've been unwilling or unable to feel in our lives, often emotionally. And I wish I could paint a picture of like a, a specific process, but what me and my partner do is actually very kind of intuitive where, you know, a man brings something, often he's in pain or distress around, kind of shares a little context. And then, you know, like a lot of somatic work, we just really start to slow him down. Really, we'll slow you down, get you connected to what are you actually feeling in your body. And from there it's almost like it guides us. Then we're just paying attention to what they're saying, what their body's doing. And you know, with enough experience and practice, we kind of have a sense of where certain paths go. And you know, in some ways there's only so many wounds we can carry as humans and A lot of them often go back to, you know, 0 to 10 years old attachment wounding with primary caregivers. And as we start to unwind some of that, a lot of change happens. But yeah, in our work we'll be sitting as a group and we will, you know, at some point open the circle and say, you know, is there, is there a man that has something that wants to go, you know, wants to bring something forward here for the benefit of themselves and the group? And that man will then start to share and then we'll facilitate and again, we have no idea where it's going to go. You know, we've ended up having some of the wildest experiences of what needs to move through men for them to be released and frankly just more free in their bodies. And a lot of the times it does have to do with expression. So expressing something that was never safe to express or just feeling something that was never safe to feel and then sometimes just receiving caring presence. You know, it has shocked me as I've done this world work over the last decade really of, you know, there's a lot of people out there who have just never had someone become fully present with them with no agenda, like, like just it's, it's not part of some people's experience. And when that happens, that in itself can be tremendously healing for, for a lot of men. And what we definitely see in this context is, yeah, what happens when there's a unique space, I think men can sometimes hold for each other of no demand and expectation of we don't need anything from you. Like there's no way. You have to be. So many men that come to us, you know, sometimes of their own doing, let's be clear about that. Sometimes because of certain expectations, feel like they have to hold everything right. Hold their partners, hold their families, hold their kids, hold their employees. And then they never have a space to be held. Which sounds woo woo, but it's actually quite profound what happens when a man is able to unwind tension from his nervous system. And I get a lot of guys, you know, who maybe are skeptical and feelings and emotions and crying and all that. And I'm here to tell you we've, I've worked with plenty of men, particularly in their late 40s, 50s and 60s, who just decide, you know what, I'm gonna grind through life and keep going. I'm gonna push myself harder, I'm not gonna slow down, I'm not gonna feel. And some days they just wake up and suddenly they can't get out of Bed. Their body's just like, no, you're done. You have neglected yourself for too long. And it has a cost, you know, particularly as we start to age. I joke with most men, you know, it's like you kind of come into the world with a preloaded debit card, like, of a certain amount of energy and chi. In our 20s and 30s, we're just like, yeah, I'm just going to grind it, work out harder, work harder, party. Not sleep, not feel. 35 starts to hit. That stuff catches up. Autoimmune disorders, digestive disorders, back problems. You know, I don't really know many men at all over the age of 40 who aren't in some kind of distress around wanting to have more energy available in their lives. I'm just so tired. I'm so exhausted. I'm so burdened. And turns out there's a direct correlation to that in terms of, you know, trauma and emotional content we're holding. And so one of the great joys of the work I get to do is seeing what happens when men release that. And it's. It's not like a theoretical thing, but it's seeing their eyes, their face, soften blood, return to their face, energy, spirit. It's like seeing people come back alive because suddenly all this energy that was being held becomes free. Free to use how we want to use again in. In our life and directed towards the things that matter the most to us. So, probably a pretty vague answer, but the idea is you're going to bring, you know, where you feel stuck or where you're in pain and. And we're gonna. You know, I sometimes joke, it's also kind of like in the movie the Matrix, when they slow things down. We're just gonna slow you down and really guide you into what's happening in your body. Cause your body often knows, you know, what the next move is or the impulse is. But for a lot of us men, we're so terrified of feeling, we just stay up here ruminating, overthinking, analyzing ad nauseam, which then further exhausts us.
Jason Lange: Right. I guess I'm wondering how women come into play here, right? Like, there's. There's so many of us, myself included, who just tried to fix my husband in every way that I could, tell him that I'm safe, do everything that I can to show him that I'm safe, these types of things. And of course, recognize that there were times that I said it and didn't match it. Right. Naturally.
Host: And.
Jason Lange: And there can be that of men don't seek other men typically to do this work and then they seek women. And we can't help but recognize that especially if they have any sort of wounding from women or you know, certain perceptions or narratives of women, I then of course become an embodiment of that.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And so how do you, how does this kind of come into play with our, with our partners, with our female providers? How does that work for you?
Host: Sure, yeah. I mean, I think just to be clear, I'm of the opinion we need both. And so sometimes you need to work with women, sometimes you need to work with men, sometimes you need to work co ed. There's things that can happen in all that are really unique, you know, and so it's kind of like working out. Like we want to cross train. Right. One thing isn't going to bring you total health, but there is something pretty potent I've seen for men in the space of what happens when they're in just surrounded with other men. One part of which is, you know, we kind of call this unique texture of no demand. There's just, there's nothing I need from you. It's a really unique flavor of love men can give each other. It's like, I don't need you to be better, I don't need you to be successful. I don't need you to be emotionally vulnerable. Like I actually don't need you to be anything. And then just like a, that happens with men along with. Then, you know, again, it's not so much specific to men, but there's the, the magic of a certain amount of shared reality when, when we're with people that have been raised in a certain context, just like us, which in my case I focus on men because that's what I've worked on and experienced of. You know, I can't tell you how many times I've heard this thing, which sounds really intense. But when men are like in this trusted space and they bring forward like, yeah, you know, I've had ideations, I've had suicidal thoughts before. Part of me has felt before like this all. I just, I just want to be free of it.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: And the unique magic of when another man is sitting there right with him and looks him in the eye and says, yeah, I get that. I've been there. Like, I totally get it. And that like, just that it's like, oh, I'm not alone really can create a lot of relaxation for men. Pretty profound. And then where this can start to relate to the feminine and you know, female partners or wives is As I like to say, men's group is a really safe place for us to start to practice our emotional vulnerability. Getting clear about what we're experiencing inside, sharing our inner world in a kind of a lower stakes environment than with our intimate partner. Right. Who we have a lot riding with. And you know, the nature of almost all relationships, for better or worse, no matter how hard we try, we're going to attract a partner that has some holographic representation of our attachment wounding. Right. There's just, it's like the boss level to work that, you know, whether it's a therapist, a coach, or in this instance of men's groups, it's a really safe place to practice and bring that forward. And then the other thing I've seen really change things for a lot of men, and, you know, this is something I've practiced in my relationship that my wife can speak to is where I do see men sometimes get into some pain is they do have partners who are like, yeah, I want to feel you more. I want you to be more emotional, I want you to be more vulnerable. And then they bring it forward and then their partner's like, ah, fuck, I don't know what to do with that. Like, you want me to fix it? Like, ah, like there's a little like kind of fear of like, am I responsible now for, for you in that? And a lot of men kind of fall into that place because we've been taught that any kind of vulnerability with other men is gonna get us hurt or disowned or, you know, kicked out of the group or shown as weakness. So for a lot of guys, the only place they sometimes feel safe to bring any kind of emotional vulnerability is into their intimate partnership. Which, you know, occasionally it's great, huge healthy part of relationship. But when it's the only place for a man, I think sometimes that's where partners can feel it and it feels a little overwhelming. It's like, whoa, you have no idea what to do. And you. I'm the only thing you can rely on. Like that's, you know, whether you're a man or woman, like when you feel that from someone, it's, it's, it's like pressure. It can be overwhelming.
Jason Lange: Absolutely. Yeah.
Host: What I have seen is there's a total different feeling state of, hey, here's where I'm at and my men are helping me figure it out. I'm sharing so you can know what's happening in my inner world. And I want to be close to you and I don't need you to fix it for me. Right. I'm open to collaboration, but like, they've got me, I'm working on this. You know, sometimes I, I use guys we love, you know, metaphors and analogies. The.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: Picture of the, like electrical engineering. There's, you know, a single circuit. It's like the really old string of Christmas lights. Right. If one light went out, the whole thing goes down. And for a lot of men who are underserved in their connections, their intimate partnership, it's their one node. Right. It's the one place where they bring everything. And that partnership has to be their best friend, their therapist, their lover, their co parent puts so much pressure on that Having something like a men's group is more like a parallel circuit where it's like, ah, okay, if this one little bulb goes out, I have lots of energy around my system so I can bring my stresses, my burdens to the group and they can hold it very easily, which then frees me up in a lot of ways and changes the energy with which I can bring it to partners. And I do see it really change things. When men are getting connection from other men, they're able to show up in their relationships very, very differently because suddenly they don't need to get all their needs met by their partner, which can actually feel quite great.
Jason Lange: Sure.
Host: And with guys I work on, you know, who I work on dating and relationships with, it's one of the big things we have them look for in partners of. Okay, now that you're building a support network around you, what kind of support network does this potential partner have? Right. Do they have friends they can lean on? Do they have a therapist or coaches? Like, what happens when you're overwhelmed and can't hold that with them? Who do they go to? It's a pretty big game changer. And lo and behold, you know, the magic of the work is the best way to attract that partner is create that in yourself.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: So you get into groups, you get into therapy, you get into coaching. You're going to naturally magnetize partners who are also resourcing themselves in that way. So, yeah, there's something really magic I've seen of what can happen with men. You know, I was just on retreat like a month ago, and one of the practices we do now is just so profound for men. At the very end they've gotten in, you kind of know each other and they, you know, like half of the group will line up and just closes their eyes and. And the other half of men just come up and shower them with praise and appreciation and what they see and what they've noticed. And for most men, it just instantly brings them to tears because it's the. It's the masculine love so many guys have been longing for, for their whole lives to just be recognized in our pain for how hard we're trying from, particularly from other men. And when they get it, it's just like the system comes alive and often is quite healed. So, you know, I tell most guys, like, you should be in therapy and you should be in a group. Yeah, like, they kind of work different things. And at some point, you know, particularly if you do have wounding with the feminine, it can be really powerful to work with a feminine practitioner of, of some kind or get into groups where they're co ed and to kind of see that other side of things. But I have found guys are much more likely to do that when they've kind of been. It's not quite the right word, but broken in by a group of men and suddenly their cultural framework for, oh, wait, you know, so many guys come to me and there's such a hesitancy towards, you know, therapy. Therapy is for people who are broken. Right. You go there when they're signed, it's like, no. Rewriting that story starts to happen in these groups where it's like, yeah, no, we, we're all carrying stuff. You go to the gym to work out your body. You don't just do that when you have an injury. Right. You do it to stay healthy and to keep growing. It's the same thing with mental and emotional health. Right. Sometimes there's an acute trauma we're working, sometimes we just want to keep growing. And we all need that as men. And men's groups in particular, I think can really change that and create this new culture of, okay, yeah, I can be forward, I can be direct, I can be vulnerable. I don't have to bring everything to my partners as a crisis. I can like, kind of get a little messy with my men first and even figure out, like, what is it I'm feeling, What is it I'm mad about? What is it I want? How does that relate to my own trauma or shadow where I might be projecting on my partner? This is one of my favorite things about group that I found is, you know, get all fired up about something in my relationship and I go into group like, oh, yeah, here's why I'm right, here's why she's wrong. Get the feedback from the men. It's like, well, actually sounds like that could Be you, not her. It's like, ah, duh, I just saved myself a fight, like literally just saved myself a fight where now I get to go home and lean into connection versus dissonance.
Jason Lange: Yeah, you know, we recently relocated and we moved in with my sister, her husband and their kids and we're kind of just full housing it, seeing where we want to be next. And it's of course this, this clash of routines and parenting styles and these types of things. And it's thankfully going very beautifully because we are having a lot of these conversations and I, we, we had a dinner for brother's birthday about two weeks ago and during that dinner we all went around and told him things that we love about him, respect about him, just a good memory of him, anything like that. And it's interesting because many of us kept it more surface, not surface, but just didn't really dig in deep. And my husband, who's celebrating four years of sobriety next month and has now been able to do this through AA and through these men's groups and really able to get in touch with that. He changed the entire tone. Like we found a way to laugh. My brother in law's a stand up comedian. He's just like very jovial and light and my husband just kind of like brought it to the, like brought it down. Not in a depressive at all, but just like grounded us for a bit and said things to my brother in law that he instantly was tearing up, was just so touched and really I think it gave him some exposure to this kind of work and he just, he leaned in so beautifully and it was just one of those moments where I looked around the table. One, we have three men that we're raising, mine and my husband's two boys, my nephew. And knowing that I have these two men that they have these two men that are modeling these behaviors at the dinner table for no other reason than because it's his birthday and we want to was something that just gave me such a full chest moment and then almost this level of kind of grief for those who, who aren't exposed to this yet and who, who are going through these loneliness of yeah, we got you a cake and we're going to sing to you and these types of things and like, are we really going to like touch your soul here? Are we really going to be able to get to this point of real rooted connectedness and it really is just a beautiful thing. And to your other point, Yes. I started my practice primarily within anger management with men because I saw these Things I was really trying to fix my husband and was like, he's not open to finding someone to get trained in it.
Host: Sure.
Jason Lange: And so I did. And then I learned how much I am the problem too, because I didn't realize how. How much I contributed. And many of you know, the man I worked with would stay relatively closed for a bit, of course, because it's natural. They're on tail ends of ultimatums. They're not there because they want to be. They're at the spouse, you know, anything like that. And there really are these parts where you can see they deeply, desperately want it. They want an opportunity to be what feels true to them, but have a fear of allowing that through. And now, fast forward, you know, six years into my practice, there is this warning that I give all of the partners of the men that I work with. Of. I know that he. He seems like he's the problem because the way that he's expressing himself is very big. And he takes the spotlight, and I get that. And once it dims and he goes backstage, are you going to take the spotlight now? Like, are you gonna know how to hold that? Are you going to know what it's like to hear complaints from him early and often versus waiting until they completely just culminate and volcano out? Right. And I had trouble with that, too. My husband, I was desperate, like, open up to me, share with me, you know, all of this. And then when he started to, I felt that within me of, like, oh, that's not masculine, and, oh, that's so weird to see you cry. And I. I don't know. I don't know how I feel about this. And there was that part that in those moments, I recognized how much I, and women in general, contribute to these narratives that we are desperate to change. And it's also within a wiring of ours, of how we view men and how we. They're supposed to be these tough, you know, providers and, you know, not feel these things. And so I had that. A bit of that dissonance within me and which I of course, addressed within my own therapy and within my own work of, like, what is that? Like, this is all I've been wanting for, like, from him.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And yet I don't know what to do with it. I'm holding him to standards that I consciously, logically know aren't fair, aren't right.
Host: And.
Jason Lange: And yet I can't help but view him differently in some ways. And what is that right? And then that's my father wounding and my men wounding and These types of things that played through. And I do think that there is so much of this work that us as, as women, as their partners, as their sisters, as their friends, their mothers would benefit from doing more of this work because we sometimes unintentionally shame them for doing the work. And then once they show themselves to us, like, we just don't really know what to do with it. And it's. It can be this hard thing. And some of the women that I work with, the wives of these husbands that I work with, they'll share with me previously. And if you're comfortable talking about sex and intimacy here, there can be these times where, you know, they'll say things along the lines of, well, before it was just all about sexual and I hated it, and I felt used and cheapened and these types of things. And now it's not. And I don't know what to do without it. Like, I don't know what to do with him when he is saying, like, just cuddle with me or just hold me and just hold space with me. Just lay here with me. And she's just like, did you. Am I not attractive to you anymore? Do you not, like, is this not working for you anymore? Are you cheating? It becomes this, like, bigger thing. And that's where, if you're open to it, I'd love to kind of touch on the intimacy sides of this kind of work and the way that I've described it, and it is crass. What I oftentimes see is men fuck the pain away.
Host: Yes.
Jason Lange: And that kind of where they get all of their connection, where they get to experience a range of emotions, where they get someone's full attention on them, and then it loses the. The connection that it's supposed to serve. And then that's kind of the only that they can connect. So how does that come through for you? And is that something that you guys address in men's group?
Host: Huge. So huge. I mean, this is a. I think it's a crisis for a lot of men that ties right into, you know, the instant access to porn and overwhelm. And I would say sex is one of the primary tools, you know, followed by alcohol, weed, you know, the things a lot of men turn towards, that really underneath are about, I'm in some kind of pain and I want to feel different. I don't want to feel that. Pain is kind of the. The normal masculine go to. And sex is really interesting, right, because we. You just imagine the. The central column of the body where the spinal cord is Right. You know, if we loosely say emotional pain, you know, it does kind of live in the heart for whatever reason, like a heart space, the. The farthest away we can push it in our body, in our center column, is down into our sex organs from our heart. And then what do us men do? We like to ejaculate that tension off. Right. So for a lot of men, a large percentage of their sexuality is about releasing tension, physical, emotional, mental tension through ejaculation, which is very different energetically from. Wow. My sexuality right now with my partner and my wife is a means to express connection with them, not to get away from something. And so this is a huge thing that. Yeah, many men try to away their pain in pretty intense ways, and there's almost always emotional content underneath it. That is frightening. Right. This is the. One of the real challenges, I think, that, you know, what you spoke about with your boys and that modeling is so important because so many guys from a young age, you know, and this is, you know, the terms loaded. But the patriarchy, in a sense, which hurts men and women and is reinforced by both men and women. Yeah, starts pretty. At a pretty young age for boys that, yeah, you should have a different relationship to your pain than girls. Right. They've lots of studies on, you know, how often parents will treat their gendered children differently. And just for a lot of boys, what it ends up being is like, oh, you're tough, you're fine, get up, keep going, try again. Right? Shake it off. Right. Which there's obviously some pros to that, but the. The shadow of that can be. It's the first signal boys often get that, hey, what's happening in your body? Override it with your head. So literally disembodied come out of your body. And then a lot of boys, not all boys, but a lot of boys get put into, you know, kind of mainstream schooling where just, you know, just the way it is. What do we have to do all day? Sit still, sit at your desk, don't be rowdy. You know, again, there's different hormone profiles in boys bodies, and they're kinesthetic. They like to move. I remember when I was first dating my wife back in like 2017, we went mini golfing in LA once, and there was a family in front of us, and there was a boy who was maybe like six, and there was waiting, you know, you have to like, wait for the family in front of you to go. And so they had nothing to do. And the boy just had the golf club and he just went up to a plant and started hitting it just like. Not out of, like, malevolence, but just like a physicality. And my wife was like, what is. What is it? What is that? Like, what the. And I was just. That's just kind of what boys do. We, like, have this energy, you know, that if it's not channeled, can be destructive for sure. But. But schooling is often pretty counter to that. So again, sit in your desk, override that impulse with your head. What's happening in your body is not important. Then we get into adolescence where that really switches to other boys, and our bodies are shifting at different times and ages, and suddenly there's this extreme energy to conform. And anything different about me can be weaponized against me through bullying or ostracization. And so we learn to hold this stuff inside. And. And whatever's happening in, you pretend like it's not there. Yeah, right. So you can survive the group. And then we get out into the workforce and, you know, especially in our current culture. Oh, yeah, sleep under your desk. Just work 80 hours a week, keep cranking. That's what a successful man does, right?
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: Grind, grind, grind. A lot of the. Traditionally, you know, it's obviously changing, but a lot of the most physically dangerous jobs have always been held by men. Like toxicity or workplace danger. Just that, you know, your body is not important. It's just the signal men often get for all kinds of reasons.
Jason Lange: And what you can provide, right?
Host: Yes, exactly.
Jason Lange: But everything becomes about providing for others at the sake of you.
Host: It's often at the sake of your body. And the. The challenge with that is then, you know, in the work I do, and it sounds like you do, you know, all emotions start as sensations in our physical body. So if we're disembodied, guess what? We're pretty clueless about what's happening inside emotionally. And then nobody, for most men, trains us in the capacity to develop any kind of interoception. Here's what's happening inside of you. Here's what that might be. Here's what you. How you can share it. Here's what you might be able to do with it. So this stuff starts to happen inside. We often don't have words for it. You know, a lot of men, when you might see this too, they come and work and it's like, well, tell me about how you're doing. I'm fine. Oh, you're. You're fine. Like, no. What are you feeling? I don't know. I'm okay. Like, the. The range of vocabulary for naming their inner experience is pretty low in a lot of the work I do with men just is literally structured practices to help them start to develop that capacity for body awareness, first and foremost, and then emotional awareness. Because when we don't have that, we don't know how to work with it. So then what do we do? We've not been given the tools. So we reach for sex, we reach for booze, we reach for weed to try to change that state, but it doesn't actually change it. And so it is quite painful. A lot of men use sexuality and is a tool for regulation. And, you know, there's. There's a healthy version of that in partnership, for sure, but. But for many men, it's not. And when sex is a means to release tension, what does that make it really easy to do? Objectify your partner, Objectify women. Right. Treat them. Because it. They literally are objects to be used to unburden myself of this tension. And so as men start to step into this work, yeah, it can be pretty disorienting for partners, right? Because what maybe wasn't optimal, but there was kind of a playbook. Suddenly that playbook's out the window, and they're like, whoa, I'm feeling your emotional side, your vulnerable side, this other part of you, which can breed a lot of connection and intimacy. But often that connection and intimacy are in opposition to sexual chemistry. And so this becomes a huge. You know, this is one of the big things a lot of modern couples are working with, whether heterosexual or not, of how do we maintain sexual chemistry over a long period of time, Particularly as the old playbooks, the old rule books, they just don't work anymore. It used to be enough, man. If I'm providing in exchange for that, I get sex and probably food. You know, that was kind of like the way it worked for a long time. And then thankfully, that's been disrupted, right? Women came out of the. Out of the. Were liberated from just being mothers and homemakers in the 50s and 60s in particular. And, yeah, you're allowed to be in the world, have your own passions, care about things, you can financially provide for yourself, which then suddenly a whole subset of men are like, well, if you don't need me to do that, what do you need me for? And they don't have the answer to that initially, right. And then those men start to do this work where we're allowed to kind of go inside and have emotions and just be part of the family and be really intimate and raise our kids and change diapers and do things that, you know, traditionally had been labeled more feminine. And those are both great types of growth. But then sometimes it leaves. Well, yeah, now I like being around you, but man, I don't want to jump your bones, right? Like, I, I'm not feeling that.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: And that's where a whole nother layer of work comes of. Okay, how do we consciously generate these energies and what does that mean? So that, yeah, I can be really intimate and vulnerable with my partner when that's appropriate. And when we're needing to generate some sexual chemistry, I know how to do that. Right. I know how to bring that back. And again, what I found is men's groups are actually a really powerful tool to do that. You know, if my wife was here right now, she could tell you that every time I go away and be on retreat with other men, when I come back, my presence is much deeper. Like the, you know, my masculine is more online and lo and behold, it's. It's far more juicy. It's far more attractive for her. Like, she can feel it when I'm. And when she goes on a women's retreat and has been with her ladies and moving her body, I'm like, yeah, let's, let's go. You know, it's fun when we come back from that. And so there's a way that, that work too. Can. Can start to polarize things. So it's, it's a process. Like both men and women are being asked to be more Right. And to have a level of fluidity, I think is the other important thing that it's not that as a man, I always have to be vulnerable and that's not going to work. Right. To always be emotionally collapsed and I don't know what to do. Take care of me. You know, most partners don't want to be someone's mother or father. Right. It's like, I want to be your partner. I want to be your lover who can occasionally support you when you're down, but not all the time. And that's where therapy and men's groups can come help take some of that burden off. So our partner doesn't need to be that, but we can show up and be very transparent of like, yeah, here's what's going on for me. Here's where I'm in pain and I'm working on that and I don't need you to fix it. Right. And that can be really profound. But that is a big shift. Right. Just want to double click this because you really hit the nail on the Head of. Sometimes women are longing for something in their marriages or partnerships, and then their men start to bring it and it. It actually turns them off a little bit or they don't know what to do with it. And that can be a whole nother layer of kind of vulnerability, trauma that some men come to me with. They're like, I finally did. And she like, yeah, right. And it's like, ah, yeah, okay, now we have to work that too. That, like, it's okay. You know, she's learning. You're learning. There's some ways you can. Language that and things you can do with your body to, you know, stay more grounded and not totally be collapsed, not totally be posturing, that just promote transparency.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I think a lot of this comes down to a willingness to tolerate being uncomfortable.
Host: Yes.
Jason Lange: You know, we, of course, where we've progressed now as a society of quick fixes, instant gratification, and these types of things that I previously was very anxious, insanely anxious. And I. If my husband was. If I got a different vibe from him for a second, I'd like, what's wrong? What's wrong?
Host: What's going on?
Jason Lange: You mad at me? What's going on? What do you think about what happened? You know, and it's. It's more so just me, of course, trying to protect myself from him being upset with me, and there's nothing I can do about it. And I feel powerless anyway. And so there's that part. And then it. Yeah, it gets to this friction part of I want this. I don't recognize what that will look like, though. And so when I present it to you, I've already built it in me, like in my expectation of how you'll respond. And you're gonna give me credit and you're gonna be proud of me and all of this. And instead you're getting this, like, okay, never mind. No. And so that willingness to be uncomfortable and that ability to tolerate the discomfort in the short term so that she can say, there's something that I find uncomfortable about this and I gotta go work on that. I have to figure out what this is. And he can do the same. It's just such a powerful thing when both of us recognize that if our dynamic is problematic, we're both contributing to some degree. And so long as each, every one of us is viewing ourselves as a work in progress, in addition to just pointing out the work that other people need to do, or maybe instead of pointing out the other work, there becomes this more. This deeper ability to tolerate the discomfort temporarily Knowing that it won't go on in perpetuity.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And there are these times that we just need a little bit of perspective and for someone to hold a mirror to us and show me a blind spot that I wasn't aware that I had. And it's. It's a hard thing to teach and it's a hard thing to encourage when there is such a deep level of resistance. And so just this morning, my husband's going to be coming on the podcast soon, and we're going to be talking all about our experiences and our challenges and, you know, what sparked his sobriety and really just, you know, sharing so much of that vulnerability. And this morning I asked him if he's able to kind of put into words what the experience was like for him to make this massive pivot to shift all of these ways that he views not only me, but himself and his position in the world and what it means to be masculine and what it means to kind of man up. And I recognize that for. For men that I'm working with that have narratives about women generally about being naggy, about withholding sex and weaponizing sex and, you know, all sorts of those things, even though sometimes we nag and sometimes we do weaponize it. Like, let's be honest, there is that part that I'm in this kind of in between processing position where I'm wondering whether I can even be that person for some of these men. I don't know that I can just based on biases that I sometimes bring into session that sometimes they do as well, and whether there is kind of this overriding of the concepts from landing because of who they're coming from. And so I was asking my husband this morning, like, can you work on, like, how you'd want to conceptualize this, how you would articulate the shift that you made and how that happened, where his previous group of friends that were kind of pretty much no longer in his life, as soon as he got sober and he didn't go to bars and hang out in bars anymore, and they didn't really know what to do with. There was this shift that when my husband made it, shortly after we became parents, he started, you know, we started viewing ourselves a bit differently. And they would tell him he's pussy whipped and that like, oh, she must be running the show and she wears the pants and these types of things. And all he could say at the time was, I respect her. And so that's what I'm doing. It's not that I'm pussy whipped. It's that I watched this woman push this child out of her, and it was insane. And I respect the fuck out of that. And, like, I'm gonna go home and help with the baby. You know, there were these types that came through and to your entire ethos is that. That's the point, is that he felt the loneliest he had felt when he was making these shifts, surrounded by the men that were supposed to.
Host: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Support him in that and encourage him in that and evolve parallel with him. And that felt even more lonely.
Host: So.
Jason Lange: So then I could see this, like, push and pull of, okay, well, do I continue doing this work and get closer to my wife and my children and that side, or do I pull back and stay within this friend group that I've grown up with that were pivotal parts of my existence? And so do you have. Do you have suggestions or advice for men who are kind of recognizing that they're ready to do some of the work and also fearful of being abandoned by the rest of the men in their lives when that happens?
Host: Yeah, it's a painful transition. I. I think it's a real one. Right. I mean, the part of what you're speaking towards is once we step on to a path of growth, in a growth orientation, it feels really different to be around people who aren't. Yeah, right. So as we start to take responsibility for our pain as men and make shifts when other people aren't. You know, my experience was it became a lot less attractive to be spending time with them because I was like, this is not actually what I want to be doing. And, you know, the default mode, I think, particularly for men, this is what can be so big for the types of groups I'm speaking about is the default mode most men connect around is what I call triangulation. So me and you are going to build connection with each other by having our attention on some third thing, literally a tv, a sports game, darts, fishing, building something. And, you know, there's a time and place for that that can be totally great. But what that doesn't do, and I get this from countless men, is, yeah, I just spent the night or I spent the weekend with my buddies, and they come home feeling just as lonely as when they left because nobody actually talked about anything real.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: Right. I might be. My wife's about to leave me. I didn't say anything. Right. You know, like, that this kind of stuff happens all the time in that shift to being in community, particularly with other men who, hey, our connection is going to come from. I'm going to put my attention on you, you're going to put your attention on me. And we're going to ask each other what's going on in life. Where are you in pain, what are you wanting to move towards? Where do you feel stuck? That changes things tremendously. And there is a gravity, you know, unfortunately, like there's a gravity to growth and people. Again, this is a great example of what you kind of shared with spouses. But oftentimes people say they want us to change and then we start to and they want to pull us right back 100% because they have a concept of who we are that is part of their identity. So if we start to shift their identity starts to get confronted with, well, I, should I be spending more time with my kids now? I don't even want to think about that. Like you're pussy whipped.
Jason Lange: Yes.
Host: Right. You just, you go to the attack essentially. And some guys can make that leap in community when we start getting real. And this is one of the painful types of vulnerability I tell most guys is you don't know until you try with your friends. You don't know who you can go deeper with. And they're going to show up. And there are some men that are just desperate and the second realness comes online, they have tons to share.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: And you know, I get this all the time in groups. I lead that. Once men start to get that vibration, they start taking it out into their world. And not everybody meets them there, but sometimes they're shocked by. Wow. Is actually the guy who I don't know super well, but we just started talking. I had a guy just sharing about this the other day. You know, we were kind of friends, but I actually just started revealing some of the pain I was in around dating. And he totally met me and we went way deeper than I've ever gone with another man. And I was like, that's great. Other friends won't meet him in that. Yeah. And that becomes part of, you know, the decision we have to make as men when we start to grow is, yeah, who do we want to be investing our time in? People who respect our boundaries and our growth or people who don't. And I see lots of guys have to outgrow certain friend groups and why a lot of guys in myself in particular, most of my male community comes through men's work now. Because if I'm going to take time away from my family, it's got to be a pretty worth it.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: You know, in a sense, like once I had kids that that whole equation changed. And so if I'm going to spend time with guys, I want to go deep. I don't want to bullshit. I want to be real. I want it to be meaningful so that it enriches my life so I can come back and be more present with my kids and my wife. And a lot of relationships aren't like that. Right. So how I choose to spend my time now is very different. And that's a painful thing for a lot of men if you don't have that community. You know, I think it's what's so great about a lot of the recovery work is they've really cracked the code on community, having sponsors and people reach out to you. And there's like a. Because you cannot do these transformations alone.
Jason Lange: Yeah, right.
Host: It's a big part of why I have the work I do. You think you can do it alone? Like you. If you're relying on willpower, that's gonna go like something cut you off in traffic and then there goes your whole plan for the day or ability to self regulate. Right. But when you're in community, in a culture of, hey, we're in a culture now where this is what we do, we're in a culture of, of growth and transformation and vulnerability, it changes a lot. You know, for me, it's just like, I don't even know how else I'd spend my time now. It's like if I'm not with my family, I'm doing some kind of deep connecting with amazing men, often in nature or transformational work. And that's valuable for me. But it's a real thing. And it can be extremely lonely for guys. Right. Because again, they might be just getting a sliver of connection from those kind of surface level relationships, but then the threat of taking that away is like, oh, there's nothing. Which is why it's so important to create these deeper spaces for men to turn towards.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I'm wondering what your perspective is on parenting when it comes to these things. So I work with primarily now parents and typically within the first like 10 years of parenting, but really at any point. And it's. It's not about helping them parent, it's more so about the parent. Right. Like how to do your own work and be the person that you really are kind of needing when you were growing up and allowing that for that to be the spotlight to be on them in such a good, positive way that then parenting doesn't feel so atrocious as, as it can be. And what we oftentimes see, is the husband, the father, still so seemingly unwilling to lean into the home, more slower paced life, prioritize his wife and his kids and still kind of want to golf constantly and still want to go on these guys trips and still meet them at the bar every Sunday. And there's a certain gap where it just, it. There's so much here that just can't come from me. And I recognize that. And I typically start these with like, I am a wife and a mother and I know that we both know this and, and here's where I'm recognizing where we do a poor job of trying to like hold you down so hard and become a mom to you that then it gets parentified and then you're a child rebelling against their mom and then who's punishing you and like putting you time out and grounding you totally. So how would you suggest that on both ends that their wives view them post baby and especially within the first like three to five years. And how would you talk to these men about either how to kind of lean into that existence or what that looks like? Because it's, there's a fine line between suggestion and, you know, them feeling coerced or manipulated.
Host: Yeah, so much here. I mean, it's such a transitional moment for men when they be. When we become fathers. You know, one piece of research I saw recently that just blew my mind was once a man becomes a father, his testosterone drops and it will never naturally recover to that high level again. And every time you have a kid, it goes down. And as you become a grandparent, it goes down. There's all kinds of great reasons for that. Right. Oxytocin is the bonding hormone and it's what allows you to, you know, care about your kids. But it has an impact on our identity and how we're showing up in the world that I think a lot of men are unprepared for. I was not prepared for. My wife and I are both entrepreneurs, work from home. You know, we're probably like 65, 45 on the split. Like I do a lot, as much as I can. And she still does more. You know, she breastfeed like she's doing more. But I do a lot.
Jason Lange: Sure.
Host: And it was a huge shift for me when it was like, oh, I have three hours to work now and then two hours with my infant and then two hours. Like I had no, like the disorientation of going from go mode to I just want to look at my baby's face and play was really Challenging. And I think a lot of men have no idea how to navigate that. And transitions tend to be really hard for men. How do I switch off work and become a family man? So for one, there's that, and then the other piece, like, you know, ask us three years ago, yeah, my wife would be like, you know, I've done a lot of changes to show up even more. And I will say, you know, it's not too crass. But, you know, a lot of guys, it does change. When your wife has a kid, particularly in that first couple of years, the kid's going to need more attention and is going to need her body more. It's just true. Yeah, her body is going to be less available to you. So you better fucking have a plan for how you're going to regulate yourself. Because if the only way you were doing that was with her, it's going to cause some friction. The other thing is, if you're complaining that, you know, your wife doesn't want sex, often what I ask guys is, when's the last time you did the dishes? Like, like legitimately. You want her to have energy and openness in her nervous system, to be free and available to give you sexually. And if she's holding all of the emotional and physical labor of the family in the house, uh, not gonna fucking happen. And so you come home from work and you're like, hey, you owe me sex. It's like, no, you want to make her more available. In that sense, you get involved. Doesn't mean you have to do everything. It doesn't even mean you have to necessarily do it. But it's like, hey, I'm gonna create a system or get some help here or do some of this stuff so that your body isn't constantly exhausted. I mean, men and women, if we're exhausted, it's the last thing we want to do. Often become intimate. Right? It's like I have nothing left to give in my nervous system. And so it is a big deal, I think, for men to. To take that on. And it can be very confronting. It was for me, where I thought I was doing a lot. I had a story about our finances and what I was doing. And then, you know, we did. We went through some work of, like, really calculating, you know, the time my wife puts into sending the thank you invites to kids, birthday parties, like these little things that most men are. She just does that. And it's like, well, yeah, that's actually a lot of effort and a lot of time. And when she's doing that Guess what she's not having time to do? Restore her body, come into her body, regulate her nervous system to then feel inspired to have sexy time with you. You know, I think this is one of the great challenges and edges for men right now that some men will want to complain. But the truth is we are asked to be, we are being asked to do more, to be more. Yeah, yeah, be a provider, be a kick ass man and change diapers and be present in, in the family. And it matters. It really matters, right? I, I work with guys of all ages and I can tell you it fucking matters when a father is not present. Yes, it matters. Kids remember it. And a little bit of presence there goes a long way. And you know, spouses just want to feel like you're on the same team. Right. And that the work often mothers put in is valued just as highly as fathers. It's different, you know, and it is changing. I think it's getting better. But a lot of guys just don't want to take that responsibility on. They don't want to take a look. Because the story most of us men are running around with is, I'm so tired, I have too much to do, I'm burdened, I can't handle anymore, right? It's like, I'm not enough. Like, oh, now you want even more from me. Like this is just 90% of a male complaint is that. And yes, the truth is, yes, they do want more and it's possible, but we have to take radical responsibility. And you know, my wife and I do some work with couples and I think this is one of the big shifts too, that again, like you said, you have to work with the spouses of, hey, if I do some work with him around this, you know, at some point it's going to surface. The part you have to take responsibility for. Right? Are you ready for that? Sometimes we're not. But that for, you know, this kind of modern family unit to work, we believe each partner has to take responsibility for the state of their nervous system to be able to show up in the family and in the relationship with enough energy to be present. That's it. And your partner can't do that for you. They can support you in that, but they cannot do that for you. And so, you know, I work with a lot of so called nice guys and that's a big thing for them to even just start setting boundaries at work. Like, no, I can't take that call right now. I'm not going to be available for that so that I can come Home and be with my kids or whatever that might be. Or sometimes boundaries around the house, too, of like, yeah, no, before I come in and be with the kids, I need 15 minutes in my office to shift gears, decompress, come into my body, and then I can come out and fully be with you and the kids. And it makes such a huge difference. Right. But they have to take responsibility for that. Here's what I need in order to be present. Right. And it takes a lot. You know, it does. It takes a lot to be parents. It's the hardest thing I think you can really do. You're gonna be confronted by all your childhood wounding. You're gonna get triggered like, it's all right there. And, you know, one thing I've been blown away by with the work I've done, sadly, is that for a lot of couples, you know, I believe the relational unit, your spousal unit, it should be the place you come to to get restored against the stresses of life. For most people, it's actually one of the primary sources of. Of stress. And it's like being at war with their partner all the time and doing things like taking responsibility. Having a more sober look at chores and responsibilities and child rearing can be painful, but it can be what really allows your partner to feel like you're on their team. And for you to create some of that connection and show up and ultimately actually get more of what you want, you know, that's the. That's the honest truth. You. You know, it's crazy. I was thinking, last thing I'll share is, I was on. I got invited to speak to this men's group that was part of a huge mortgage company, like, national company. And I was like, this is amazing. You guys have, like, a men's group that's meeting. But I was talking about the. The great myth most men fall for of, oh, I'm going to work really hard so that I can eventually get the raise and promotion and make enough money so that then I can enjoy my life and be present with my wife and kids. Yeah. And then suddenly, 20 years have gone by. They've missed their kids, their wife's. Like, we haven't had a relationship in 20 years. I'm leaving you. You know, it's this whole crisis. And there was a guy in his 90s who was like, yeah, you know, I ground. I just kept grinding. And my son, he died when he was 60. And I. I missed it. You know, I missed it. I missed his life. Like, it's a real thing that guys will fall prey to that. You don't get that time back. And it's exhausting. And it just is, you know, it just is. There's nothing you can do about it, I think. But the, you know, last thing I'll give for a little bit of hope is the more you're willing to just take that on, the more you're gonna selfishly, the more you're gonna get what you want from your partner, too, because she's gonna feel you on the team. She's gonna have time to herself. She's gonna feel sexy. She's gonna, like, want to engage with you when she's not worried about who the fuck's going to do the dishes tonight. Me. Right. You know, my wife's nervous system is a little different than mine. She explained to this to me once. She's like, yeah, if I walk in the room and it's untidy, it's like sandpaper on my skin. So can you imagine if I'm like, hey, do you want to make love? And I'm rubbing her with sandpaper? Yeah, some people might be into that. But, like, she's like, no, not at all. Like, that's not going to work for me. So, you know, tending space in that sense, relieving some of that burden, it's a great gift to our partner, which allows them to just drop into their fullness and show up for us. And, yeah, it's hard. It takes a lot. And then as men, we need spaces to go to where we can unburden ourselves emotionally, our tension and whatnot that aren't just with our intimate partner. And lo and behold, men's group's a great place for that.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I hear that. And there's so many different ways that I want to go with this. And we would quite literally be here all day. I really appreciate how you've not only shown up today, but how you've shown up kind of in this, in your entirety for men here. And there's, of course, going to be scrutiny and judgment that people placed upon you. And also, that's just part of our work, too, is just like, so do it. That's. That's perfectly fine. And I'm going to be over here doing. Doing pretty good and getting a good amount of sex going too. So there's. There's that part that I deeply respect what it is that you're doing. I find it to be incredibly courageous and unfortunately, so brave because this. And hopefully as we do more of this work, we will see this becoming more of the norm as opposed to the exception. And it really is just such a beautiful thing that you're doing, giving men somewhere to call home when they didn't quite have a safe one growing up. And I really appreciate you being here. Thank you so much for joining me. I'd love to have you back for maybe totally anytime. Ones about certain topics in particular, which I would really love to just like dive in deep with you and yeah, thank you so much for being here. Where could. Where can men find you? Are your groups closed for start and stop or how does that work?
Host: Yeah, best way to keep up with me and everything I'm up to is at my website, which is evolutionary.men. so not.combut.men. and on there, yeah, you can find all the different programs I'm doing. Some are virtual, some are hybrid, some are just, you know, in person retreats. I do have a program launching soon that's like. If you just want to get the experience of a men's group online, it's like a 12 week guided. It'll take you through, you'll get to know five other eyes really deep and in a really profound way that you can then continue on way past that if you want. Because yeah, my mission is basically, like I said, every man should be in a men's group. And I think if they did, they show up as better fathers, better husbands, in just more alive and less in pain. And we certainly need men who are connected to their hearts and their power right now in the world. You know, it's not either or. We need both right now. And one of the best ways to experience that is to see another man embody it. Right, like. Like you were talking about that dinner table of. Wow, there's a transmission to that. Didn't feel weak. I felt courageous. Like, felt real, felt deep. Right. He deepened that conversation in that room. And that's what us men can do when we're really in our full presence. We can bring things deeper. That's one of the greatest gifts we can provide. So, yeah, just head over to Evolutionary Men.
Jason Lange: Beautiful. Well, I'm sure there will be plenty of people joining. I'm. I'm very much supportive of everything that you're doing and I will share your information far and wide because it is so desperately needed. Absolutely. Thank you so much for being here. We'll speak soon.
Host: Yeah. It was a pleasure. Thank you.
Jason Lange: Thanks so much for listening in on my conversation with Jason Lange. These are incredible conversations that need to be happening more often. As always, this is all about your empowerment one shift at a time. You can find any of Jason's information linked below in the show notes. You know where to find me if you need me. Stay steady and I will see you on Sunday.
