48: Who Should Pay On A Date? | Dear Men

Jason Lange: The situational stuff actually matters. Like, oh, I actually wouldn't be going out and getting a steak dinner if I wasn't dating you. Like, that's the honest truth. So my preference, if I had to pay, would not be to eat here.

Melanie Curtin: Okay, guys, welcome back to another episode of Dear Men. I have with me my fave. My fav guest, Jason. You are my fave. Not that my other guests aren't good, but I'm just saying welcome back to the podcast.

Jason Lange: Excited to be back.

Melanie Curtin: I love working with Jason. I love having him on podcasts. I love co facilitating with him in our men's program, which we'll get to. And I'm really glad to be bringing this topic up because it's kind of been. Yeah. In the collective consciousness, I feel, and sort of, you know, personally relevant. And that is money. Money and dating. Money and sex. Money and relationships. In this case, we're talking about who should pay on a date. And there's a lot that goes along with that. But I think I would just love to start with hearing from you on how have you navigated who should pay on a date in your dating life.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I've had a journey for sure on that, on this, and it had phases. You know, what I'll say is when I was doing the online dating thing in my mid-20s and again later in life, I was often kind of dating or paying for dates. But I did have the experience pretty fast of starting with like, hey, let's go on a full date, and then going to dinner and everything that comes with that. And truth be told, particularly in the online world, sometimes pretty quickly into a day realizing, like, oh, the attraction, the chemistry is just kind of not here, or the values I could just feel didn't really line up, you know, in some sense. And so from that, and this informs, you know, my. My personal way this played out, I started doing coffee dates first. Like, let's just meet for coffee. And then if we like each other in coffee, we'll actually plan a full evening together where I will gladly pay for dinner kind of thing, but at coffee, you know, if I'm feeling generous, I'll pay for coffee. If not, we'll just kind of split. And, you know, my wife is still famously furious at me for our first coffee date. I did not pay for her coffee.

Melanie Curtin: Right. Actually, no. This is a great example, though. Let's pause here because I think, you know, one thing that I will say as someone who has gone on dates, as a woman, is that I feel like paying is always Awkward. Like, the paying thing is stressful. It's 2019. It used to be really clear. The man pays, period. It's not clear like that anymore. It's pretty confusing. And so I feel anxious and stressed. Every time paying happens. When I don't feel anxious and stressed is when the man has asked me out in such a way that is like, I would like to take you out for coffee. I would like to take you to dinner. I would like to treat you to this show. Will you be my date? Then I'm like, okay. My nervous system is calm because I know what's happening. I know what's happening. And who's going to pay for this particular encounter. What? Like, in. In this case of this date, it seems like it wasn't. It wasn't actually clear. You weren't like, I would love to take you out for coffee. It was more like, let's meet up for coffee and talk.

Jason Lange: Yeah, this. This was. We had just met. We had interacted once in person and then Facebook messenger, and it was. I didn't actually know if she was single or any of that. So it was like, the. Let's meet up, and that's where I'm going to find out.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Like. And by the end of that, I was very clear, and I said to her, like, oh, I'm going to take you out for dinner.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And then it was to me, that was like, our first date was after that.

Melanie Curtin: Right. But it's such a perfect example, because I think there are so many times now in modern life where if, you know, you're just meeting up or there's so many circumstances I've been on with men where I'm like, I don't really know if this is a date. And so I don't really know what, like, I should do. Like, should I offer to split it? You know? I guess so, yes. I mean, I think so. Like, but it's, like, stressful, like, and I'm imagining it's also stressful on the man's side of, like, well, you know, if I pay, does that send a signal? Like, it's all very stressful.

Jason Lange: Totally. It's super confusing. And, you know, one of the, you know, this is just one extreme angle for it. But one of the things I had kind of felt into that was like, I'm happy to pay for someone when I know them, but when I don't know them, there's like a interesting social condition around that that's like, well, why should the guy pay? Well, because what. There's Scarcity around the woman. Like, literally, there's a version of that in the extreme that's like the kind of paying for service, paying for sex. I'm going to pay for the date in the hopes that we're going to get together, which that doesn't feel good to me, versus, like, when I know someone, I'm like, oh, it'd be a joy to take you out. Like, I know who you are. Um, so that kind of informed my first coffee dates of just kind of keeping it smaller and whatnot. And then for me, what, you know, Violet and I did pretty quickly was. And, you know, my. One of my favorite strategies we've talked about with our guys is, yeah, you can still take the lead if it's a little confusing and if it. Particularly if it's going well. You know, one of my favorite things was, how about I get this one, you get the next one, which, you know, is actually setting the container for another date as well, which feels really good. And then there's kind of a back and forth in that sense. And sometimes I would pay for two or three in a row, and sometimes she'd pay for one. But I can say, as a guy, it's always nice when a woman offers, even if I say no. Like, you know, oh, can I help? And be like, no, I've got it. And I have a suspicion for a lot of us men, we're even more likely to pay even if the woman offers. Like, just.

Melanie Curtin: You're more. You mean. What you mean is you're more likely to pay if the woman offers.

Jason Lange: Yeah. If there's like that. That makes me even feel better about paying in some sense, because it's like, oh, she's willing to and doesn't, like, expect me to. But then I. Now it feels like a treat instead of just like a social conditioning.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I mean, that's interesting phrasing too. Like, even saying, like, can I help? Versus, like, should we split it? Right. Like, everything around this topic, I feel like is kind of fraught. Like, you know, because there used to be a rule, and everyone knew the rule. It was really easy. Like, it's the 1950s. I'm asking you out for a malted. I'm obviously paying for your malted. There's no question when the bill comes, like, it would be weird if the girl paid. It would be a strange aberration. Whereas now nobody knows what to fucking do.

Jason Lange: Totally.

Melanie Curtin: So it is stressful. And so I can speak for myself on a date, I'm like, I don't Even know what to say. Like, I go for my wallet, and I reach for it, and I kind of like, you know, like, look at him. But I'm like, should I say, can I help? Should I say, should we split it? Should I say, I'll get this one, you get the next one. Should I wait for him? Like, I don't know what to do. So I think, just in general, for the men out there to know. From the woman's experience, I'm just one woman, but I suspect that other women would agree. If you do want to take her out, if you do want her to feel relaxed the whole time, if you do want to make it clear, it also kind of makes it clear it's a date. Like, can I take you out for dinner? Can I take you out for coffee? Rather than, hey, do you want to get coffee with me? Which is also fine in a way, but it's a different thing. It's not. And it's not gonna relax my system. Like, I'm still gonna be like, fuck. Like, what are we gonna do when we get to that stage? And then it's awkward, and I don't know. It just makes all of this other stuff happen. Versus, like, I'd love to take you out this weekend to an improv show. Are you down? I'm like, oh, great. Okay. I have. I'm. I get it. Like, you're taking care of the tickets. And then I'm like, cool. My system's relaxed, and when we get there, like, I'll get the popcorn. Like. Like, I know what's happening, and I can relax around that. And I. I love that.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Yeah. That's. That's on us as. As guys to create that container and that. What I like about what you just shared is something I've done before, too, in that, you know, leading the way on the date doesn't mean I have to pay for everything. But there have been times where, you know, I've paid for fairly expensive concert tickets or something. So then the agreement is. And, like, oh, do you mind paying for drinks that night? And it, you know, if it's someone we've just started dating or something, there's, you know, it's not 50 50, but it. It helps. And. But again, it's creating the container and the structure around it. It's like something we talk about and we can introduce as men. I mean, I think the number one thing that's probably good to know is that there's no hard and fast rule. Like, there is no rule anymore. That's why it's so confusing. Yeah, like that's. This is a novel space in our culture right now that we're all discovering together. But you can always talk about it. And that's something we talked about on one of our calls, is when you set the proper container. This can actually be a really interesting point for conversation on a date. You know, the checks coming and like, oh my God, this is the awkward part, you know.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: How does this work out? What's this like for you when this happens on dates and you can actually just talk about it with each other, which I think alone would shift a lot of the energy. Cause it's taking the. You know, I imagine some of the discomfort from. For you and for a lot of women is when it's like the implicit kind of like, is this the agreement? Is this the container? And nothing's really kind of spoken about. But the more you can just open that up to explicit conversation, I think it just makes it easier. Like, oh, okay, well, this is where we're at.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, yeah, I think especially. Cause like one thing that we were talking about before we started the recording was I feel like you've spoken to some guys who've repeatedly had the experience of feeling used or feeling taken advantage of. And that doesn't feel good either. Like the stress of, you know, that I'm describing of like, fuck, I don't know, like who's gonna pay? What's it gonna mean? Like, it's not only on the woman's side. Like there's stress on the man's side too. And for some men, it's like you said, like feeling like they are going to be taken advantage of. Could you go into that a little bit? Like, what is happening in these guys world around this?

Jason Lange: Oh, well, yeah. I mean, one of the things I get the most and you know, some of the advertising I do for our program and the content I put out there is, yeah. Like some really ferociously angry men that have this story that women are only interested in them for their money and if they don't have money, they're not going to be interested in them. I think that's mostly just a story that they use to protect themselves for various reasons. And not to say that there aren't some shallow women out there, but most women are not. Right. You know, sure, that's a piece of the equation in terms of security and stability with the man, but it's not. I wouldn't be married if that was true. Right. Honestly. But the. Where I. Where I think there's like a confluence of things happening. Is that because so much has shifted to like, online dating, meaning, like, lots of connections, lots of first dates. Um, you know, this thing I've definitely heard from men before of, it seems like if it we don't immediately click, then there's no follow. Like, oh, if we don't click right away, she's not interested because there's just an endless pool of people you can date. Right. So I think for some of the guys I've spoken to that really have had a lot of pain around this, I think oftentimes it's the kind of confluence of they're not creating container around payments, so they're, they are just paying and then they're going on a ton of first dates that never go anywhere. And so they feel a little burned because, you know, if you're going on two or three dates a week and you're spending 50, $70ameal, like, that adds up. Yeah, that just adds up for guys and that becomes a little painful. And, you know, to, to each woman, it's just like, well, this is our first date. It's not that big a deal. But I think to the guy, over time, when, you know, there's guys I've talked to. Right. Who kind of get stuck in that first date cycle and go on, you know, 30, 40, just first dates that never translate to anything else. And that, you know, that has a toll.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, totally. I think it's also worth throwing out there. Like, I went on a first date once that was walk, a walk on the beach, and it was one of the best first dates that I'd gone in a long time. It's February when we're recording this, so obviously, like, that's not realistic for many people and the northern hemisphere. But, you know, I think it is worth also sort of exploring, like Froyo or an ice cream date. That's another pretty low cost thing. Like, and it's also kind of creative. Like if you're on a dating app and you're like, hey, I'd love to take you out for Froyo this weekend. Like how Sunday afternoon. That's like a cool, interesting, different thing.

Jason Lange: Absolutely.

Melanie Curtin: Rather than a drink, I think drinks tend to be the standard and there's nothing wrong with that. But, you know, it is worth talking about. Like, yeah, there are ways to mitigate costs when it comes to going on dates, even after you're in a relationship.

Jason Lange: Well, and it creates some creative opportunities as well to not just fall back on drinks and dinner, which you Know, there's like social conditioning around that. You know, I think for some guys, too, sometimes the money thing gets involved because we do want to impress a woman. So it is like, oh, I want to take her on a fancy date because then, you know, she'll like me kind of thing, which I actually think is kind of a crutch. Whereas, you know, you can do very cheap dates, like ice cream, walk on the beach, playing chess in the park, you know, who knows? But that are more about creating connection between you than showing how much money you have to spend, which I think is really great when you're first. First meeting someone, first going on dates. You know, we just talked about this in a call last night. It's like, first dates don't go on movies. No, no, I love movies them. But there's not a lot of opportunity for actually relating in your, you know, maybe you have a four and a half hour date. Half of that is being at the theater, not actually talking to each other.

Melanie Curtin: Right, right.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: And it's interesting because, you know, the paying thing, it's. Doesn't end after the first date.

Jason Lange: Right.

Melanie Curtin: Like, there's a first date and then there's second, third, and then you're going out. So I'm curious, when you again, in your experience as a man, how have you navigated past the first date?

Jason Lange: Right.

Melanie Curtin: So let's say that you take. Well, okay, let's. You know, we could use you and Violet as an example. There was the hotly contested first T. Date date, non date, and then there were dates after that. So what you said was on that meeting, you were like, I like you and I want to take you to dinner. So that. Can you sort of go through what happened after that in terms of.

Jason Lange: Yeah, then we started dating officially. And, you know, the rhythm, we would often alternate. So sometimes. Oh, you got the last one. Can I get this one? That just kind of emerged between us. And then there were also times where it wasn't just alternating. It was more. There was a rhythm of sometimes she would cook for me. And that takes time, money, and energy in a different way. So I would, you know, sometimes for weeks at a time. I would pay if we ate out and if we were eating in, she would make me a beautiful, amazing dinner and she would buy the groceries for that and things like that, which tended to balance things out. And then, yeah, you know, we're married still, and sometimes I'll just pay. And it feels good.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So I want to bring something up here because I think it's important so my experience in terms of who pays is that it's important to be sensitive of how much people make, like, how much income is coming into each person. And, like, the balance, you know, like, I'll get this one, you get the next one is fine when you're both sort of starting from the same place and you have around the same income and around the same, like, desires around, like, what kinds of places you go to. I was dating a guy a few years ago who made significantly more than me and really liked to go, like, get oysters and, like, do cool stuff. And at the time, I had just lost my job. So, like, I made less anyway, and then I lost my job. And anyway, there was some stress around, like, what was going to happen with my housing and all this stuff. So he would take me out a lot. Like, he paid all the time. Not every single time, but it was more like if we were going to a nice meal, he was gonna pay. If I was getting us coffees, I was gonna pay. So I tried to pick up things as much as I could here and there, but it was, like, severely imbalanced in terms of who was gonna pay. And it wasn't that I didn't want to take us out. I did, but at the time, I was sort of like, I can take us out, but, like, we're gonna get cheap Indian food. Like, if we're. You know what I mean? Like, if we're gonna go to this really nice place, you know, like, this isn't where I would have taken us, basically. And I really appreciated him because I felt like he never really felt resentful, and he never. He didn't feel any kind of way about it. Cause it was sort of like, well, yeah, I make more than you. And I like taking us out. And, like, it's sort of fine. But what I will say is that we never had an explicit conversation about it. We never talked about money. And I think. And, you know, they talk about. They say that money and sex are the two biggest things that couples fight about. And to me, I'm like, that makes a lot of sense because money is so tied to our survival and our value in the world, how we think about ourselves. Like, there's so much energy wrapped up in that concept that, like, of course that's what's gonna show up in a couple. It's not like this random thing, like, out of the blue, like, money's on everybody's mind. But what blows my mind is I can't believe I went through that pretty long term. Relationship. And we never talked about it explicitly. Like, I think maybe we had one conversation about it once where I said, I just need you to know, like, I feel some shame that like, I don't pay for more and I can't pay for more. And I really appreciate that you, that you show up in this way. And he was like, oh, don't worry about it. And that was like the extent of the conversation. Like, we didn't, we didn't really like, but it was. Don't you think we sort of should be talking about it more?

Jason Lange: Oh, totally. I think just at least having the conversation is super important. Whatever you decide in terms of, you know, and it's probably going to be different with every person you date and every relationship. There'll be a unique, a unique thing that you form between the two of you that works because it does. The situational stuff actually matters. Like, oh, I actually wouldn't be going out and getting a steak dinner if I wasn't dating you.

Melanie Curtin: Yes.

Jason Lange: Like, that's the honest truth. So my preference if I had to pay would not be to eat here.

Melanie Curtin: Or like, I remember once that boyfriend and I went on a weekend trip and I was like, this is awesome. I'm so excited. And I wouldn't be taking us on this. Like, I'm stoked to be your date. And like, I wouldn't, this is, wouldn't be a responsible decision for me. Whereas for you, you're like, I really want to take my girlfriend out to the beach. That's fun for me. And he had this really steady job that paid well. And so for him it was a non event. And for me it was like, I would, I just wouldn't have been a choice that I would have made.

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah, totally. And those are good conversations to have sooner than later. And for one of the reasons we often talk about stuff like this is your ability to talk about it with whoever you're dating is going to be a huge indicator of whether or not this is the type of relationship worth pursuing. Because if, if the conversation is awkward and it's like closed off immediately, you know, that tells you about one of the two biggest stresses couples deal with. That's not going to change. Yeah, it's not going to go anywhere. So if you can't talk about money early on, it's going to make it even harder to talk about it later on. But if you can at least open the conversation and have a subject or have a normal conversation where you're not like stepping on each other's toes. And getting super upset or anything, but, like, hey, yeah, I don't know what the answer is. What do you think works for us? You know, do we want to talk about how much we make, like, all those different things that can come into play, but your ability to navigate that, like, is actually great data for the person you're dating in terms of, like, what's going to be like to be with them.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, especially, like, maybe not on a first date, but especially, like, if you. You've gone on a few dates and now you're kind of like, dating. Like, it might not be exclusive yet, but you're obviously, like, you're hanging out, you're regularly going and doing things. I. It's interesting you mentioned that rhythm of, like, I'll get this one, you get the next one. I think that has also been how, like, I'm thinking of a guy that I dated more recently, and it was more like that. Like, I don't remember who said what when, but it was sort of like, oh, you got the last one. Let me get this one. And it seemed like that was like a pretty good rhythm. He was also, like, again, someone that was sort of at my level, I think, in terms of where we were financially. But how would you recommend, like, a guy bring it up if he. If he were to. If he wanted to be the one to lead in this conversation?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think probably not first date, but you could on first date, like, hey, this thing happens, and I notice I get anxious around it. So I wonder if we could talk about it. Like, what are your thoughts? Because the other thing that I think that might surprise guys is that they're going to get equally varied responses from some of the women where some. Some women will be like, oh, God, no, I don't want you to pay for anything. Like, I want 50, 50 every time down. And some other women will be like, no, I love it when you pay for me. Or so you're going to actually have to discover that with each person you're dating. But, you know, whether it's that first date, which would be a little bolder, I think. But again, it kind of depends on the container you're setting, whether it's later on the date just to talk about, like, hey, how do you want to handle this as we're dating now? Like, you know, you can maybe lead with what works for you. Like, you know, I'm pretty comfortable spending this amount. If we go out, you know, past that, I might need a little help or something like that, you know, and see how it goes, mm, yeah.

Melanie Curtin: I feel like, honestly, for me, like, the most important thing would just be that he brought it up. Like, it wouldn't have to be brought up perfectly or done in exactly the right way, but just the fact that it's something that he's comfortable opening up with, dialogue around would make me feel safe. Like, oh, great, he's going to be a man who brings things up. Yeah, he's going to be a man who brings things up, makes me feel really secure and, like, my kind of, like, opinion is valuable to him and that he wants to hear my thoughts around it. What feels safe? I think it's a really good point that you brought up about. Like, you know, if he pays and then is she expected to put out? Right. You didn't phrase it like that. But I've definitely. I have a lot of tension in my stomach around receiving because I don't always know what that means. Like, if, you know, like, if. Okay, if I allow myself to be taken out or I receive from you, do you think that means I owe you? And that feels scary. So to me, I have some trauma around receiving, and I don't think I'm the only woman to have some of that of like, okay, I'll receive from you. But it's kind of scary because I don't know what you think that means. Like, I don't know what. And it's not just sex, and it's just like, I think you're gonna fuck me tonight because I took you to dinner. But just like, okay, you've taken me out, like, to coffee, and now you've taken me out to dinner. Does it now, do you think that I owe you something? Like, do you think that I owe. You know, like. And that's so, again, fraught. Like, I don't think that people are always conscious of their expectations or their. Yeah, I don't know what the word is, but, like, attachments around, like, well, I've paid for us three times now, so you owe me something. And they might not even be aware of it. They might not even be conscious of it.

Jason Lange: Totally.

Melanie Curtin: So it can be, like, kind of scary to receive sometimes.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And there are guys that think that, you know, that. That do roll that way. So it is something I think women have to be aware of. But as guys that don't roll that way or are trying not to roll that way, you can always talk about it. Like, that's. That's. That's the beautiful thing that you just discussed that you know that this is just a Particular manifestation of the, like, what is it we're doing? Conversation really, like, that you can have at any point of just like, hey, how's this going for us? I just want to check in. Like, are we dating? Are we exclusive? Am I paying for everything? Like, just have those conversations. They actually don't take that long, and they often release a lot of energy. And then you can be more fully with each other instead of both trying to kind of guess.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And if you're. And if you are a man who doesn't say, want her to feel obligated, you know, you can say like, hey, I just want to check in around, like, us paying for things. I want you to know that when I take you out, I'm happy to take you out. I like to take you out, and I'm not doing it out of obligation. And I want you to feel safe. Is there anything that you want to share around paying?

Jason Lange: Boom. Use that one.

Melanie Curtin: I think there's something really sexy about a man who's sensitive to, like, the issue of paying and the issue of receiving being tied to it. Like, those two being together, like, and kind of. Yeah. Creating that space for, like, is there anything you want to share about this? Because I think everyone has their own individual background. Like, I know women, like you said, that are like, I don't want a man to pay for me ever. I always want to split everything 50, 50. But some of those women feel that way because they've been burned in the past and they felt. They have felt like they. They received, and then they were sort of shamed later or they. Or things were expected of them that they weren't comfortable with. So they were like, fuck it. I'll just avoid receiving altogether because it's simpler for me. And, like, that's really sad. But that's where they are at this moment. They're like, I don't want to pay. Like, I want to split everything 50, 50. All. Always, like, all the time. And then there are other women that are going to be like, I really love being taken out. I feel more polarity. I just. I feel better. Like, I'm happy to pick up, like, maybe every third time or something, but it is kind of a big deal for me. And, like, that's really fucking good to know. Because it is, like, it's a. It's the wild west right now. Like, there is no, like, codified thing that we can go off of.

Jason Lange: Ye.

Melanie Curtin: So, yeah, I think I would feel very taken care of if a man led a conversation around it and held Space for me to share about it.

Jason Lange: Boom. You can't do that too much. I mean, that's really the only answer to who should pay in the end. Right? There's not a hard and fast rule we can give you guys, unfortunately. But what you can do is feel into the moment and when it's appropriate, just to open the conversation up and.

Melanie Curtin: Talk about it and do a really, really honest reflection yourself of, what do I expect when I pay for a woman on a date? What do I expect when I take my woman to the beach for a weekend? Like, be really, really honest with yourself. Like, yeah, I'm gonna feel resentful if we don't fill in the blank, like, have sex or she doesn't. I don't know, worship me. I'm not thinking very good examples. But get really honest with your honest. Because I do think that there are a lot of unconscious expectations and obligations that we place on ourselves and others. And the more we can bring those to light, like, the better. Like, oh, man, I realized I took you out, and then I felt resentful after because you had to go right away. I took you out, and then you had to go meet up with your friend. And I didn't know that was gonna happen. I started to feel resentful. I would feel much safer with a man saying that than giving me the silent treatment for two days and me being like, I don't really know what happened, but I feel, like, weird inside, and I'm anxious now. Like, I don't know what happened. So get really honest and clear about what are your expectations? What are your unconscious, like, ties to this stuff?

Jason Lange: I think that's super important. Your unconscious and cultural unconscious. Yeah, stuff like tapping into both. Because. Yeah. You know, the dark side of it is I pay for things for a version of control in the relationship. Right. Because if I pay for things, then there's a reciprocity, unevenness, that I can expect certain things or. And then I can get upset if not. And, yeah, totally do an inventory. Be. Be pretty explicit about that. You know, it was one of the reasons I got clear, like, oh, I want to get to know a woman a little bit, and then I'm happy to pay for her. That was, like, my marker for that. But you're going to have to find out yours.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, well, I think that's a good place to wrap, if there's any. Is there any other advice that you would give people who are, you know, struggling with, who should pay on the date?

Jason Lange: Yeah, just get creative, you know, have some it's great to just try to think of inventive new dates anyway. Like, you don't have to impress a girl by taking her out to a super expensive restaurant or dinner at some point. Sure, it's super fun, but there's plenty of ways to entertain anyone you're dating where you can actually get novel and get creative and get out in the world and do different things that have all kinds of other benefits.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, good one. Cool. Okay, that wraps up another episode of Dear Men. Thank you for listening. If you want to reach out, we would love to hear from you. We're on Instagram and Twitter, Earmen Podcast. That's Earmen Podcast or Facebook. We have a group Dear Men Podcast. We also have an email address, dearmen podcastmail.com if you want to join the Big Sexy Data Set, the community of people who regularly respond to the surveys that we talk about on this podcast, just email us at that address, dearmen podcastmail.com and we will set you up. Have a sexy day. And I also just wanted to say, you know, Jason and I referenced this a couple times in the podcast, but we do run a transformational program specifically for men. It's called Pillars of Presence and it is essentially a 10 week boot camp. And it's transformational, meaning it's not just information, it's transformation. So if you're looking for a breakthrough in your dating, sex, relationship, life as a man, and you're interested, you can apply for a call at Evolutionary Men Apply again. That's Evolutionary Men Apply.