48 | Boys Don’t Cry: How to Unlearn Emotional Suppression and Find Connection w/ Jason Lange NEW | SHORESIDE: Without The Couch

Jason Lange: Foreign.

Host: Welcome to the Wisconsin Wellness Podcast. I'm Lori Grow, your host, mental health therapist and practice owner. Each month we'll showcase a central theme and provide weekly practical hacks, inspiring interviews, and valuable advice from wellness professionals. Our aim is to help you strengthen, streamline your wellness and mental health journey. So let's start the show. Hi, welcome to the Wisconsin Wellness Podcast. I'm your host, Lori Grow, and our guest today is Jason Lange. And Jason is a facilitator and occasional filmmaker, passionate about the intersection of media, technology and human development. And he works primarily with men's groups and truly believes every man should be in a man's group. So I'm so excited to talk with you today, Jason. Do you want to share just a brief story of what led you to this particular area? Because it's unique.

Jason Lange: Absolutely, yeah. Excited to be here. So thank you. First off, and like a lot of guys I know in this space, my journey to becoming a men's guide and facilitator just started with the work I needed to do on myself. So I actually grew up just outside Chicago there in the Midwest. You know, white guy, lower middle class, pretty much had all my basic security needs met, but was raised in a family that had no sense of interiority, just no physical connection and no emotional connection. And, you know, when I was young, I just survived, like all of us do, and then start to hit adolescence and come out into the world. And particularly for me, when I hit puberty, and in my case I'm attracted to women, I started to find, like, wow, I don't know how to do this. I was really awkward and nervous, got really uncomfortable in my body and just started to find that there was a lot of disease in my being, meaning I just often did not feel good and had no idea how to connect, like, how to open myself up, share what I wanted, even identify what I was feeling. A lot of the times and the pain of that drove me essentially to like, okay, there's gotta be something I can do to change myself.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And I think, like a lot of men, for me, it first started philosophically. So I started getting into philosophy and trying to understand about the mind and just through some luck on honestly, eventually got thrown into a path that exposed me to two things, somatic therapy and men's groups, which completely transformed my life. So the first time I had a very big opening in my life was in one of the first men's groups I was with. It was being facilitated by an incredible older man mentor who had been doing work for a Long time. And, you know, I thought I knew myself pretty well and had done some talk therapy and was pretty sophisticated, let's just say, in terms of my protection, of how I kind of protected what was going on inside me. And within 10 minutes of this guy, I was on my back, arms up in the air, saying, hold me, hold me. Bawling like a two year old with my voice just cracking.

Host: Wow.

Jason Lange: And crying in a way I'd never cried before and came out of that and was like, what just happened? Whoa.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: What was that? I didn't even know that was in me. And turns out that had been showing up, that part of me, that young boy had been showing up in every interaction I had had with women. And that pretty much sold me on that kind of work. And then I got really lucky because in my 20s, I got exposed to men's work and men's groups, which back then, you know, there was a little movement in the 90s, but it was not huge in most of the time. If you said men's group back then, it would have been referring, most people would know as like a church group, which can be really great and powerful. Yeah. But it's a little different than the type of work that's emerging in a lot of men's work now. And so in my 20s, I got plugged into a group that was a mix of men my age, older men, and out of all of the things I've done long term, it's what's transformed my life the most. And. And there was a point where I was just talking about it so much and how much it was helping me and got me through some really challenging transitions and life choices. I was kind of becoming an evangelist and guys kept asking me, well, can I come to come to your group? Can I come to your group? And at the time, one of the guys in my group was a therapist in la and we were just meeting in his office, so it was like, no, we can't fit more than eight bodies. Like, it just. It doesn't work. And so that kind of inspired me to. All right, well, I wonder what would happen here if I started leading this work and giving some men the opportunity I had. And that kind of just sold me on the path and got me under trajectory that's just been growing ever since. Wow. And then simultaneously in the culture, there's kind of been, I would say, a bit of a. A tidal wave of, wow, men are suffering and they are unequipped. Yeah, they're just often unequipped to deal with their interiors and that has a lot of ramifications on our society. And. And so men's work is starting to take off in an exciting way and men's groups are starting to become a little bit more of the culture in terms of one of the many tools available for men to heal and thrive.

Host: Yeah, I feel like there is, I can feel that movement and I tend to work with older men usually and it is really interesting because there was no real tool. There wasn't really any tools. Right. It's that age old men can feel lust and they can feel anger and that's about it. And it's interesting also because I have a 13 year old boy and I get to be with all of his friends and all of that. And we live kind of in the country, I would say to describe our area. And there are some of those same kind of beliefs in. Yeah, in our community of I will hear from his friends like men don't cry and stereotypes like that. And I think, man, that would be so difficult to move through life and feel like you can only express two emotions. You have to figure out how to suppress or push down any sadness. And how do you, how do you actually engage with people? You can only do it at a certain level. There is going to be a lack of genuine connection. So it's challenging, I will say, raising that 13 year old boy who doesn't necessarily gravitate towards mom, I want to lay down and cry or come towards me. That's not actually his personality. So I'm even more interested also in, you know, some ways to get young men to start to feel okay with that. Do you have any insights, any thoughts on that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say that's a thankfully blossoming part of the men's work movement. You know, we kind of classify that under rites of passage in that traditionally in most cultures around the world there were rites of passage rituals which involved taking boys and initiating them into manhood. Which, you know, obviously it changed throughout different cultures around the world. But a lot of times boys and girls were raised together until, you know, 10 to 14 years old. And then at some point the boys would separate and they would go spend time with the older men and kind of learn the ways of older men. And you know, that had problems because there was all kinds of, know, issues of masculinity back in the day. But part of what we're seeing is kind of, I would say the more modern version of that, that like you said, one of the huge challenges most men I work with, and particularly boys have is they have no role modeling for the other way. Yeah, right. Our culture is just constantly pushing the macho man, lone wolf, tough, rugged cowboy, you know, American. I don't need anything. I never share anything. Kind of stoicism. And so they don't even know that there is another poss. But like, I experienced, you know, the other part of that first men's group I was in where I had that experience, which, you know, I was. I was like 25. So it's kind of funny to say this, but I'm sitting there and I'm watching this facilitator, this older man who was in his 60s at the time. And this thought comes through my head of, oh, that's what I want to be like when I'm older. And it wasn't in the sense of, oh, this is specifically his job necessarily. It was, yeah, feeling his presence, how attuned he was, how present in the moment he was, how deeply he was feeling, the way he moved through the space. His actual nervous system relaxed my nervous system. And I was like, whatever it is he has done to get there, I want some of that.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And this is one of the great things I see in men's groups over and over again is when that transmission happens that men didn't even know that was possible. So two, you know, two very clear areas I often see that are when a man comes forward with some grief or sadness, but is still like fully present, tears might be streaming down his face, but he's like, solid at the same time. Men have this experience of, whoa, I didn't know that was possible. Like, in fact, feeling this man's tears, he feels stronger to me.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: I trust him more that he has the capacity to be with his whole self. Or on the vice versa. The tricky one of anger, right. Which often is one of the only emotions men are allowed. And then there's this whole subset of men that culturally were raised by that either had abusive fathers, bullies in their peer groups that then see the anger and fully retract that energy into kind of the more the nice guy of just. I don't speak up for myself. I'm always appeasing other people and who have kind of slotted anger as confused it with aggression as a dangerous emotion. And for them to see a man who's fully in his anger or rage, but who isn't explosive or dangerous, meaning, wow, anger is something that can be brought forward and still be safe. Yeah. So many men have never had the experience of that. And they're like, Holy crap. Like, I felt that man's fury, and never once did I feel threatened or in danger, like he has control of that. And so it's that experience and that modeling of, oh, there's another way here that is so key that these rites of passage in particular for young boys to kind of bring it back are so important because they get to see and have modeled for them this other way that is very counter to the culture. But what I've seen is once men and boys experience it, they realize, oh, actually, that's what I want. That's way easier than spending. You know, I'm sure you've seen with some of the older clients, 10, 20, 30, sometimes 40 years of a man avoiding some emotional experience inside and the immense amounts of energy that that takes from someone's life versus being able to just move towards that in the moment liberates so much I've seen for guys.

Host: I think going into. Into what you're saying of that energy, of what that does to someone's body, that's something I can say. I've seen. I've seen older men come into my office and it's. And it's almost like a slumped down. And then as they're moving through our work, how open and how their body just. You can see it. You can see that change. And, you know, this. My life is so different now because I accessed some of these things. I can talk about some of these things. Maybe not all of the things yet, but I have an opportunity to actually feel understood and to feel connected in a way that, you know, maybe never. They've never experienced before. It's a gift. And it's also, you know, how you described it as something that can be passed on generation after generation.

Jason Lange: Yes, totally.

Host: Kind of going into that space of being present, that nervous system, being calm and being able to express those emotions. I just want to point out I can feel that solid presence and vulnerability just in how we're talking today. So, you know, you work with a lot of different men's groups. What do you see as something that somebody tends to come, come in for or come and seek you out? Are there specific things either their goals or what they're looking to get out of that time?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say, unfortunately, because of so much of the existing stigma that men tend to live under, of never ask for help. And, you know, therapy and groups are only for men who are really messed up, like all this junk that a lot of guys believe. A lot of times guys only get to me when they're in an extraordinarily painful moment of their life.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Their wife is leaving them, they lost their job, they're having a major physical ailment that they can't just push through. That something is actually demanding that, hey, you, you just, you can't do this alone anymore. Or for some guys, you know, just extreme isolation and loneliness. They're just like, I, I just, I'm dying inside and I have no one. But I will say one of the areas I do focus on is on relationships. Yeah. Whether that's dating or marriage. Because often that's a place where you just can't avoid.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: Can't avo avoid it. And in some sense it's one of the only things I've often found gets men off the couch and says, hey, I need help, I'm not able to get into the relationship I want or I'm in a relationship and they're ready to leave because some I'm not able to bring something that they're really desiring. So that's a really, really big one. Other men who, you know, are just burned out, you know, they got on the escalator of life of, okay, what I'm supposed to do is get a really high paying job, work many hours a week and that's what I'm supposed to do for myself and for my family. And then 10 or 20 years go by and they're a wreck. Yeah, right. They miss their kids, childhood, they haven't taken care of their body, their relationship is totally on edge. And they realize I got to attend this system because I can't just run on autopilot anymore. And in fact, I don't even know what I want because I haven't stopped to think about that in 20 years of my life. And so I'll get a lot of those guys as well. But really it's the whole gamut of men who are just tired of feeling stuck and tired of feeling alone and who are ready to just make a change and get connected to other guys, you know, and really shift the paradigm of. Other men don't have to be just a threat or your competition, but the right group of men can be amongst the deepest allies you have in life. Yeah.

Host: Yeah. I think a lot of men are kind of tired of that going on. Even in their friends group groups of like the constant kind of alpha stuff that shows up of, you know, taking each other down and, you know, some of it's in fun, some of it feels like it's not. And feeling like, oh, I'm not Really getting what I need out of these friendships. And I kind of want more, but I don't know how to do that. And I think you, you covered all of the areas I see happening, which is relationships. A lot of times when I'm working with a couple, the man might be in that position of just not even sure where to start or what to do. My wife is saying she's been feeling alone for the last 10 years, and I don't really understand. There isn't really that roadmap for how to be connected.

Jason Lange: Absolutely not. And one of the many struggles I see, and I'm sure you probably see it too, is so from a young age, most boys who then become men are not really taught how to be in their bodies and how to connect to their emotions. So right from a young age, not all boys, but plenty of boys. And, you know, some girls too, let's be honest. But, you know, hear that phrase, stop crying, right. You're okay, you're fine. Which from a young age is really teaching boys what's happening in your body. Ignore it. Override it with your head. And then a lot of boys get put into school, which has a lot of great things, but, you know, just the way boys hormone profiles are. They need to move.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: They have very kinesthetic bodies. But sit still, don't move again, what's happening in your body? Ignore it. Then we get to adolescence where there's. Yeah, all that kind of locker room machismo.

Host: Oh, yeah.

Jason Lange: Don't show any weakness or vulnerability because it's going to be wielded against you. Hold it inside. Whatever's happening, ignore it. Get out into the workforce. What does it mean to be successful? Just work harder. 60, 70, 80 hours a week, Whatever it takes. Oh, is it destroying your body? That's okay. Just work harder. And yet we still have interiors as men. We still have feelings. Right. And so most men aren't taught a how to identify them and know even what's happening inside, let alone how to express it and work with it. And because of that, what do then men often do? We turn to things outside of ourselves to change our state when we're feeling uncomfortable. The biggest one in our culture, alcohol, weed, sex, porn, masturbation, food overworking. And so men try to fix themselves in a scent, get a little bit of relief. But those things are always just temporary. Right. It doesn't actually get to the root of it. And that causes so many issues with so many guys I know who are like, I keep doing this thing and I don't want to be like, I see how it's hurting me in my life and generally what I see is men go inside and learn to access this and then particularly get connected. A lot of the need for that starts to evaporate in terms of, oh, okay, maybe I don't have to drink my feelings away.

Host: That's such a great example of how it can work and how it can be such a positive aspect of being in the group and being able to share. But neither person in that is expecting the one to take it all.

Jason Lange: Exactly.

Host: And I think that's also part of a common dynamic is for the female in that relationship to believe that they have to take on all of the emotional stuff that their partner has so totally. And you know, I think it can be even bigger than that. I think then a woman's nervous system is getting off track too. And there's a lot of, lot of statistics on marriage and what it does to women. And I think if we can figure out how to change that dynamic, maybe at the beginning, but as long as we're working on it, it's a good thing. But that's where I see a lot of issues or problems coming up in about like the 40 to 50 year old stage of life where let's again use hetero of A man maybe thinking, I should be in this spot, or I have all this stuff and I'm not feeling how I expect it to feel. And the woman is potentially in a spot of I'm doing all the things and I'm not feeling how I'm supposed to feel. And not necessarily realizing that the problem might actually be bigger than just the couple and that it might be really important to get that extra support of other people.

Jason Lange: Absolutely.

Host: Of, hey, I can't do this alone. But we're expected to do this all alone. So having that place that, that men can do that is extremely beneficial.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: So question on how, how do you run the groups? What's kind of the logistical format of how you do it? Is it online in person? Can you share with our audience a little bit about how that all works?

Jason Lange: Yeah, there's, you know, the wild thing about a men's group is kind of like the term meditation. If someone's like, hey, I meditate, it's like, well, what kind? You know, there's endless varieties. The same is kind of true of, there's lots of varieties of men's groups. But a few core things that I tend to focus on are one, yeah, I have in person groups and I have virtual groups. One of the nice things about this kind of technology coming online is it really does make it way more accessible for guys no matter where they're located. I was pretty lucky. I lived in my 20s. I got into my first men's groups in Boulder, Colorado, which is kind of this hippie, very transformative. So the work was there, but lots of other places around the country, there isn't. Right. There's nowhere to go for that kind of group. But this whole virtual wave we've been part of this last decade has really changed that. So if you're hungry as a man, no matter where you live, you can get into a group. And while I have a special place in my heart for physical in person groups, because there's just so much you can connect with guys when you have that physicality. It has been mind blowing to me how effective a virtual group can be.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Just in terms of men getting connected and sharing and being true. And, you know, for some guys who, you know, in the middle of family life and stuff, it's actually quite convenient.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: That, oh, I can squeeze in an hour and a half without having to leave home and put my kids to bed, et cetera. So I do both. And to take a meta step back, I would say conceptually the biggest shift in a men's group, like, whatever you do inside of it is the challenge a lot of guys have in why they might have a lot of friends, might be going to sports games together, hanging out at the bar, but then they come home and they're still feeling lonely inside, is because most of us men are taught to relate through triangulation. So me and you have our attention on a third thing, and that's where our connection comes from. Yeah. Watching the game, fixing a car, going fishing, wherever that is. So we can spend all this time with each other, but not actually be talking to each other. In a sense. And at its most basic, a men's group is just when we shift our attention onto each other.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Hey, what's going on in your life right now? Where are you in pain? Where are you struggling? Where are you thriving? What are you excited for? What's in the way? What's it like to be you in your life right now? And that alone is totally transformative for so many guys. And while a lot of men don't have necessarily a lot of practice sharing, what I've seen to a shocking degree is once they get into a space where they feel safe, wow. There's a lot. There's a lot to come out about what's going on in their marriage, with their job, with their kids, their health, whatever that might be. But then a little more granularity. I mean, just a very simple structure I often lead or teach men is that we get together and then we do a little bit of practice. So we do some kind of embodiment practice to just become more present and actually get into our bodies. So every man just gets a few minutes to kind of share where they're at in their. In their life, in their body right now, coming into the group, what might be a big issue or not. And then we'll often go deeper with a couple of men where they really get the focused attention of a group and get feedback and get sharing and sometimes get practices, meaning they get assignments from each other of like, yeah, you need to actually go home and have that conversation with your wife because you know it's not going to fix itself. Right. Or, yeah, it's time to go into work and you got to let them know you have to set some boundaries. You can't be taking calls at 10pm on a Saturday when you're with your family. Right.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And there's that. That loving kind of accountability and challenge that helps men move forward.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And then we'll often have some kind of closing that's like A very basic structure I use. Other groups are a little more accountability focused. Some groups I'm in are. We're literally just getting together to practice with each other, doing meditation or embodiment work, or just really focusing on getting present with each other. So, again, there's a lot of variations. Some are just more traditional kind of support groups where everyone's just sharing, you know, where they're in pain. But the best ones have a little bit of everything I've found. And the thing I've seen time and time again about why joining a group can be so profound for guys is most men I know are craving a deep sense of belonging to and a deep sense of purpose in their lives. And when they join a group, it can start to give them both because they feel belonging, your presence actually matters. If you're at a group or not, you might have something that could be very valuable for another man. And then there's purpose in that, too. Of, wow, I want to show up for my guys, right? This is something that really bonds a lot of men and then just kind of gives them something to orient around. And as I say, you know, I'm in a group that. That meets every other week in person. And it's kind of like a heartbeat in my life where every two weeks I know I'm gonna be slowing down and checking in, like, really getting honest about what's going on in my life. And it keeps me on track in a lot of beautiful and profound ways.

Host: Yeah, I believe it. I believe it. I think Lizzie, we had talked before meeting with you, and she had that question. So I think you really explained quite well what somebody could expect and what are those benefits and even that how quickly things can shift when a man is feeling safe and comfortable. And really, it has to do a lot with. It sounds like being connected to yourself, being connected to the other men in the group, feeling that purpose and support. A lot of guide groups that are just friendship groups, they're not usually talking about the tough things, or there might be like, hey, you know, my buddy's going through a hard time, and we're going to go. But they're gonna go have a drink together. They're gonna go do something together. I love how you explained that. Cause I haven't really. I didn't really think about that. There's a lot of benefits to having an activity, but it can be a buffer. Not needing to be too close, or if there's any emotional uncomfortableness, oh, it's my turn to hit the ball, you know, so that can be helpful and useful sometimes, but having that like, hey, we're here, we're in it. No pool table, and let's just be here.

Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. A lot of guys find it pretty revelatory.

Host: Yeah, I bet. I bet. So, Jason, how can people go about finding you? Could you share your information? I'll also put that in the show notes, but, yeah, could you share that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, happy to. So, best way to keep up with me is in if you're kind of like what you're hearing and want to learn more is my website, which is just evolutionary men. So it's not dot com, but min. And on there you can see the different programs and events I run. I have a podcast of my own. Lots of different content and material of just really kind of pushing back against this kind of man box culture of, hey, the lone wolf thing, it doesn't work. Like, let's just, we gotta get real here. And. And, you know, I always joke with guys, like, literally, in nature, the lone wolf is the one that was kicked out of the pack. And it will die faster. Yeah, it actually will die faster. Getting community online is one of the most powerful tools to becoming more resilient I've seen for guys where suddenly, if life comes at them hard with something, they have a place to go to recover and to kind of find themselves again. And I've had many moments in my life where I've had to hit the bat dial the red alert phone of, wow, I'm in a crisis right now. Who can come help? And it's those guys that show up in my life in the moments that matter the most. So if you're a guy listening and you're intrigued, you can definitely learn more on my site. And if you want help finding a group, I love doing that as well because I'm very plugged in at this point. So you can always contact me and I can kind of get you on the right path to finding something local, whether it's with me or not.

Host: Oh, I love that too. I love that. Where somebody can reach out and if you can't offer that support they're looking for that you have all these connections to help someone get there. That's awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Jason.

Jason Lange: Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for creating space and doing the work you both do with men. It's so needed.

Host: So needed. And I'll put all your information and your podcast, I'll link it all up to the show notes so anybody that's listening can connect to you there. All right, thanks. Again.

Jason Lange: Thanks so much.

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