39: Navigating Personal Space vs. Togetherness in Relationship | Dear Men

Jason Lange: Things just really start to shift. So there the practice becomes polarity or difference. And that's where space is huge. Space is a great tool for polarity in the sense of even just going away for two hours for a men's group. When I come back, there's more polarity in our relationship.

Melanie Curtin: Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Dear Men. This one is special, obviously, because I'm back with my friend Jason. Then welcome back to the podcast.

Jason Lange: Excited to be back.

Jason Lange: It's definitely been a journey. The first thing that comes up is that there's a tangible difference between this and a relationship I was in previously.

Melanie Curtin: This being your current relationship?

Jason Lange: Yeah, my current relationship and the one I was in previously. We were kind of both introverts in space. Well, I was. I was actually the more extroverted in that relationship, which was interesting. So there would be times where I would want a little more time with people and would want less, and that was a struggle because I'd want to stay out or I'd want to go do something, and that was hard for her.

Melanie Curtin: Did she feel rejected often? Okay.

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. In that instance.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: My current relationship with Violet, Our marriage, is a little different in that she's super extroverted. I'm at most an ambivert, if not mostly an introvert. Unless certain people are around, might be one way of putting it. But I'm way more comfortable with alone time and space. And I'd say what I've noticed the most in this relationship is we've actually been pretty lucky that we don't have to, like, consciously take too much space because we're both really active in doing things, which naturally creates space. Meaning I was gone for five days, came back just Monday night, and then two days later, she's gone because she's doing her own thing.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So you each. Do. You do a lot of retreats. You both have mentors, you travel a lot. You're away and apart a lot, doing lots of activities.

Jason Lange: Yes. And that creates a lot of space. And that was something we've learned to navigate throughout our relationship. And we've kind of found our rituals for how to stay connected during those.

Melanie Curtin: Times, you know, during the times you're apart.

Jason Lange: During the times you're apart, you know, it's a great. It's actually a great time for that, because something like FaceTime or video chat, it goes a long way to just having a quick check in, making eye contact, re. Establishing connection, those really important elements of keeping secure attachment alive. And it's something I think is, you know, as a guy that leads men's. Men's work. I think it's also just profoundly important for that space to happen. And it's one of the reasons I encourage all men to be in a men's group is it becomes a way to take space with intention at the same time, where it's not so much like, hey, I need to get away from you, because it's. I'm going to be with my men, which creates some difference and some space in the relationship. Naturally.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And offloads, so to speak, some of the processing. So it's not all just on the couple, but you can, you know, relate and have emotions held and have your experience held by other people, which I think is really important.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Especially for men who tend to be more isolated. Like, I don't think I've said this on the podcast before, but I was recently looking at a statistic that said that 50% of men over the age of 18 cannot identify a best friend. So half of men can't identify someone that's their best friend, someone they can confide in, someone they can be close to that has their back, that they feel like they can really process with. And that's. I don't think the same at all for women. I think a lot of women have more friends that they can really rely on and look to for support. And just. Men are just so much more isolated in our culture. So if you're a guy out there, I see you, and I care. If you don't have a best friend, I'll be your best friend. No, just kidding.

Jason Lange: That won't help.

Melanie Curtin: There's something special about men and male friendships and having men that can support you and have your back. Like, that's part of why you advocate for the men's group. Because. Well, what would you say, I'm curious, in terms of that. Like, why is that important for men? Because there are also men who are like, I have a best friend, but she's a woman. You know, what's. What's different about a man?

Jason Lange: I mean, for one, like, there's biochemistry to it, which is a real thing, in that, you know, men hanging out with men tends to increase testosterone in those men, and they connect and relate in different ways. You know, more wrestling, more shit talking, more challenge, more force, which does something to a man's nervous system. You know, I can absolutely say that. That it's part of the. You know, we've talked about this before, kind of the evolutionary tradition of, like, it's. In most tribal cultures, the men would go away. They'd go out on the hunt.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Sometimes for days or weeks at a time.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And in that awayness, you know, something happens to our nervous systems. Time out in nature, time with other men, there's not necessarily as much talking, just a lot more men being and exerting themselves and bonding through doing, which is a really important thing for men. We tend to bond a lot through doing. So having something like a men's group creates a space for that. Even if it's relational practice. You're doing something, you know, we're doing men's group.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, yeah.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Like maybe you're not setting a boundary and that's why her parents are coming again.

Jason Lange: Totally.

Melanie Curtin: Or whatever.

Jason Lange: And then there's usually like an aha. And oh, my God. Wow. I don't have to go have that fight because now I see what's really beneath that and I can go home and.

Melanie Curtin: And see my part of it.

Jason Lange: And see my part of it and have a good connection with my partner instead. Which is really important, I think. Really, really important. And. Yeah, there's just, you know, it's such a subtle thing, but it's hard to describe, but there's just a certain freedom that comes from being around other men. You know, there just is. I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's because of the. The biology piece, but there's a relaxation that happens in the system, I think, particularly when there's no women present.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So you're saying you hate girls now.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And obviously this is for. This is for us, you know, straight men.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: But there's absolutely men who are in men's groups that are gay.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And have different experiences that I can't speak to myself, But I've been in men's group with men like that. And there's just something about the energy of men being together that even for the gay men I know shifts something, relaxes something, and just like, brings it down a level in. Deepens our presence.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. So you were physically present, but you weren't fully present with them.

Jason Lange: We're in the same room. We're maybe just vegging out on TV something. But I'm not really fully there as deeply as I could be. And sometimes as a man, and particularly as an introverted one, I need a little space.

Melanie Curtin: Absolutely.

Jason Lange: Just drop in and deepen in myself. And the benefit of that, though, is that when I do next see my partner, I'm way more there. Way more there. It's a much deeper connection. It's much more present connection. So in some sense, you know, one frame would be. Is it's actually a way to take care of our partner and ourselves at the same time of, wow, I can. I'll be able to be more available for you and really be there for you. And I'm really excited to see you Tuesday night if. But tonight I just need some time to myself.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: As simple as that.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. That's really beautiful. I remember in our. In the program we run for men, there was a guy who said something similar to a girl pretty early on in their dating. It wasn't very long into the really quote, unquote relationship. They weren't exclusive, et cetera. And I can't remember exactly how he phrased it, but he said something like, I really need the night to myself to recharge. But I'm really looking forward to seeing you this weekend or something like that. And I was so impressed with that because I was like, I would think that Was hot. Like, if I. Like, if I was dating a guy and he said that, like, I would personally think that that was hot. Not if I sense it was shady and he was actually seeing another woman. That's not what I'm talking about. Like, if I can sense that he's like, I really like you, and I really need tonight to myself. Like, I just. I really need that. I would think that was really sexy. And I'm imagining that. You know, a lot of times the incentive to not say something is fear. Like, we're afraid the person's gonna be like, well, fine, then go fuck yourself. Like, oh, you don't want to see me? Like, well, then fuck you. And much of the time, that is not the case. Some of the time it is the case, but it's kind of a litmus test, right? If you say it to the person and they freak out, that's pretty good information about who they are and what stage of development they're at versus, like, I get it. Even if it's like, I get it. I'm disappointed, But I like that you are taking time. That's a good response. Right? There's a healthy way of responding to it and then an unhealthy way that makes you feel, like, bad in your stomach.

Jason Lange: That's beautifully put. That I think. I think the fear is in the actual result sometimes is a conflation of rejection and space. I need space. Is experienced by the other person, is, oh, you don't want me. You don't want to spend time with me. Which is not necessarily true at all. Can be very opposite, actually, of, I like you so much, I need some space so I can connect to myself more, so I can be even more present with you. It's just that simple. Or I know how, you know, I'm aware enough to know of how I need to take care of myself. So I don't, you know, blow this up. Something as simple as that. You know, if I'm stressed out or fried or something like that, and at my capacity, it's important to be able to set a boundary and be like, hey, I need some space tonight. Or, you know, it's really important for me tonight to sit at home and do my taxes so I can be done with that and we can have an amazing weekend two weeks from now or whatever that might be. I think that's a hugely important practice. And an amazing litmus test. An amazing litmus test because it tells you so much. I think the less codependent a relationship is, the more room There is for space.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's really where it's almost like this. This skill is part of how to not become codependent. Because it feels to me like in modern relationships, if you're not. It's kind of like inertia or whatever it is. Like, if you're not actively making sure you don't become codependent, the. The inertia almost pushes to that. Like, there's a way that especially, you know, once you move in together and we're pretty isolated from our families in the U.S. you know, culturally, there used to be just more people around, more village feel, and now it's very isolating. So it's way too easy to just move in and watch Netflix and just be together constantly. Like, unless you're at work, you're with your partner. And that's part of why, you know, you mentioned men's groups or other intentional places we go outside the relationship for connection.

Jason Lange: Yep.

Melanie Curtin: Right. Because it's one thing to go to a networking event, but it's another to go to a men's group. Like, you know, one you're gonna get deep connection and really good questions and walk away feeling nourished in a way that you're maybe not gonna get from a networking event. So it's not just doing something outside the house. Like, it's important to have, like, connection events outside the house.

Jason Lange: Totally.

Melanie Curtin: Depth inside the house.

Jason Lange: It's really great.

Melanie Curtin: So is there anything else that you would recommend for guys that are, you know, Basically what I heard you say was, first of all, it's important to say something if you. If you. If you know, you need the time alone. It's important to say something and not just let it ride.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: And I'm imagining that part of that is because if you let it ride, you might also build up resentment.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: I really think they do.

Melanie Curtin: And that they feel loved when their partner provides that space and allows and.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: I have my women to call or my other friends or whatever that might.

Melanie Curtin: Be instead of guilting that person.

Jason Lange: Exactly.

Melanie Curtin: Why are you spending so much time in the garage? Why don't you want to see me? Why aren't we having dinner?

Jason Lange: Yep.

Melanie Curtin: That's not doing that.

Jason Lange: It doesn't help. It doesn't. Doesn't help. But. So those are two frames, you know, introvert and extrovert. And even space is a love language that's important for you to take responsibility for and identify.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: What are your needs around that? And play with it too. Like actually test, you know. Oh, I didn't. I'm going to try just hanging out by myself Monday night and see how that feels.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And see if it recharges you. This also then leads into. There's. The space is very related to polarity. And this is an arc we've talked about a lot in our course of really what most relationships go through and where I've seen a lot of friction and tension and, you know, experience shifts myself in that when you first start out in a relationship, oftentimes you're just dating. And when you first meet someone, there's tons of difference. And what I mean by that is there's a lot of unknowns. You don't know everything about the person. You spend a lot of time away from each other. Like, everything is kind of new and different. Every interaction for, like. For and different.

Melanie Curtin: By difference you mean polarity, which in this case, a lot of. I think the lay term is like chemistry. There's so much chemistry.

Jason Lange: Right.

Melanie Curtin: Which is there's a lot of difference between you and me. There's a lot of uncertainty that creates chemistry. And, you know, associated with sexual chemistry.

Jason Lange: Like, there's a lot of fire and natural. Natural curiosity. As well. Because even when you're dating, let's say maybe you see each other three nights a week, if there's time in between, that's time apart. And so when you go and meet your partner, you're like, hey, what's been.

Melanie Curtin: Going on the last two days?

Jason Lange: And you're genuinely interested because you haven't seen. Seen each other. And so there's. There's tons of difference. And in some sense, a lot of space, oftentimes earlier in relationship post. Emotional space and physical space. In that there's just. Not everything is super tight and fused yet. But what you need to, you know, the work early in a relationship is attachment theory is the. How do we come together and create safety and connection and sameness. And sameness.

Melanie Curtin: And quality of sameness.

Jason Lange: Get aligned with our values, what we're wanting, how we think about things, how we move, bonding, move through things. Literally wiring up our nervous systems with each other to feel trustable. And that's hard work. You know, that's often hard work. And that's where a lot of early relationships go wrong, where you're trying to get clarity about values. I want this, you want that. There's friction there and there's not enough safety or attachment and things blow up. Yeah, but there's a shift. There's almost always a shift where the, you know, you can imagine it as a giant X and things switch. And there is usually be it, you know, a type of commitment like marriage or probably more than anything else, just moving in.

Melanie Curtin: Cohabitation. Cohabitation. Yeah.

Jason Lange: Moving into the same space, I think is a major switch point where suddenly you have tons of sameness. Attachment becomes very easy. You're touching each other multiple times a day, making eye contact, constantly talking with each other. You know, where each other are almost all the time. Because if you're leaving the. And tells you. There's so much sameness which can come with comfort. Yes.

Melanie Curtin: Stability, oxytocin, which is a bonding hormone, but not as much polarity.

Jason Lange: Yeah. It's where a lot of people lose sexy time. Like real charge. It almost becomes more like the. You become a lot more like friends. You're in the same space. You're not always having friends all day long. So a lot of times things become transactional and you're just talking about. You're just talking to each other about things like roommates. Yep. And your friends groups start to become the same, and that adds more sameness. And things just really start to shift. So there. The practice becomes polarity or difference, and that's where space is huge. Space is a great tool for polarity in the sense of even just going away for two hours for a men's group. When I come back, there's more polarity in our relationship because I was literally out of the house, which creates a space. I had a different experience. So there's a natural, like, oh, what was your evening like? What was your evening like? You know, in terms of men's work, it often changes my biochemistry. My testosterone goes up a little bit more, I drop into myself a little bit more. So there's more chemistry when we come back. And it really becomes an important and conscious tool, I think, for building that and not in some sense not worrying about it, but starting to celebrate it and use it consciously of like, oh, yeah, this can be really fun for us. If I go on a five day retreat because then, you know, I've noticed time and time again there's. There's nothing like that feeling of just, you know, maybe two days in, where you're just suddenly, boom, oh, I'm longing to see my partner.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: In a way that when you're with each other 247 all day long, it's actually kind of really hard to long to see your partner. It is.

Melanie Curtin: I saw this really interesting study once about sexual polarity. They didn't call it that. I forget what they called it. Maybe it was just frequency of sex or something like that. And they said they did a study with consultants because management consultants will often be on projects where they're gone Monday through Thursday. So they'll live in San Francisco, but they'll be on a project in Chicago. They'll leave every Sunday night, they'll be gone. They'll come back Thursday night. They'll have three days at home. Sometimes two days at home. And they said those were the reliefs, relationships where the sex was like, quote, unquote, the best or the most frequent. And I think it's because of this, because the polarity was almost artificially drawn out. So this might have been a biochemical study about. There's a very famous cliff like the dopamine cliff in relationships where right around the two year mark, dopamine drops significantly in a bonded pair of people. So two people were having sex right around two years. The dopamine will go down and a lot of relationships will fail right around two years if you don't have the bonding to back it up. That's when the sexual chemistry tends to descend. It can be maintained if you're putting attention on it. It's not like the kiss of death, but if you're really unconscious and you're just having a relationship and you have no idea, then this often happens. And I think this was an extension, like with management consultants. What they saw was that dopamine kept going. That if you had regular time apart and four days a week is a lot of time apart, four to five, depending on the project, that's pretty significant. It's not exactly like someone that's in the military that gets deployed because they're on deployment, then they're back. Or like people that I know that have dated guys in the Navy, they're gone for six to nine months and then they're back. That also does something to the polarity. But even regular time apart during the week, extended time apart during the week absolutely affects polarity.

Jason Lange: It totally makes sense, too. I mean, particularly. Particularly, you know, if it's a man leaving, if he's going on a job to get shit done again. Like, they have crazy studies that, like, checking things off a checklist for a man increases testosterone. The feeling of accomplishment increases testosterone. Increases testosterone. I went and did something when I come home.

Melanie Curtin: Right.

Jason Lange: Versus, you know, one of the. One of the other pieces of the cohabitation is like touch and continually bonding actually decreases testosterone and increases. I think it's oxytocin.

Melanie Curtin: I think it's oxytocin.

Jason Lange: Yeah. So in some sense, the more you're just touching each other throughout the day, the more your testosterone is kind of going down as a man. And it actually depolarizes.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: It lowers the charge.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: So then it. You actually have to really practice to create some sexual charge, juice and energy in the way that just comes naturally when you're first dating and you're seeing each other maybe every other day, maybe a couple times a week. And there's that space and it's just like, wow, see each other and just can't wait to get into the bed.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Like explosion.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Then when you're living together in some sense, all that cuddling, it actually doesn't necessarily serve the sexual polarity. Which isn't. Not to say that's not a bad thing. It just means you have to start to more and more consciously and intention with intention. Do polarity practices and take space.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And just take space and be okay with that.

Jason Lange: That's. I think that's great. And it's an opportunity to create rituals, too, for how to. How do we part and how do we reconnect?

Melanie Curtin: What do you mean when you say.

Jason Lange: Rituals in the sense of, like. Yeah, is there a ritual around. Oh, I'm going off for the evening, and we say goodbye even. As simple as that. And return as well. You know, that's. That's a powerful one that Violet and I have, is. Yeah. We have a. You know what? I don't know what the equivalent would be, but you know how guys have their fancy handshakes, and.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: We have our ritual for greeting each other.

Melanie Curtin: Is it a fancy handshake?

Jason Lange: It's not a fancy handshake. It's a kiss and a butt squeeze and a tight embrace. That's how we reconnect when we've been apart. And that reestablishes that connection after space and after time apart. So we know that'll come.

Melanie Curtin: I like that in our relationship, which.

Jason Lange: Is great as, like, a reintroduction to each other if one of us has been gone.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Which I think is really important. And, yeah, those conversations. That's great. It's a great frame to just, how do I make this safe for the other person? Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: How do I make this safe for you? And how can you make it safe for me? Because everybody goes through this. I mean, this question of how do you negotiate space versus together time? Like, we're all humaning. We're all like, everyone. Everyone that's been in any relationship can relate to that. I don't think there's anyone. And I've never officially lived with a man before, but even in my, you know, hardcore dating relationships, it's. It has come up. Like, you start to feel it. It's like a real thing. And the more conscious awareness we can bring to it in terms of how we can both help each other, I think the better it's.

Jason Lange: It's. Yeah. It's so nice.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And it's a way to take care of each other as well, because, you know, another practice you can start to do is notice when each other aren't really there.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: You know, like, hey, you know, I. We're here, but I don't really feel you here with me. I'm just curious what's going on? Or do you need, you know, would it be useful for you to have a night with your girls?

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Like, that simple.

Melanie Curtin: Yep. Or a night with your book.

Jason Lange: Or a night with your book. Or, you know, do you want to go to the spa? Like, yeah, that's okay with me.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: I'd rather have you be nourished and lit up and present when we're together. Thank you. You know, exhausted and worn out and needing to take care of yourself in some way that I can't necessarily do while we're with each other.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's a good point.

Jason Lange: So I think it's another practice for each other to even try to tune in. And then, I mean, what a great gift, right? What a great surprise, too, for someone who's like, hey, I know you had a really long week. I booked you a massage in an hour at the spa. Your Uber's coming. Oh, something as simple as that would be a beautiful.

Melanie Curtin: That's really sweet. Especially, I think, for my experience of introverts, thinking particularly of a family member who is a strong introvert, that when she doesn't get enough alone time, she gets really irritable. It's not always obvious that it's like, I need alone time. It's more like, oh, you're being kind of mean. And I feel like it's because we've had guests all weekend. You had work, a ton of meetings. At work, like, you've just been peopling for a lot of days and you need some time to recharge. Like, not telling her what she needs, but I know her really well, so I can say, like, oh, like, let's give her some space to like, just. Let's just leave the house and give her like, the whole afternoon to cook, you know, and just be. Just be alone and recharge a little bit. Because I can. I'm like, ahaha. I see the warning signs. Like, too much peopling for my introvert. It's a good thing to have your attention on.

Jason Lange: It's a great way to, again, take care of your partner, to notice that and start to feel them and what they need and be open to that and maybe even create rituals around it again of like, oh, you know, Friday nights are girls night and guys night, or I go see a movie alone and you can have the house. That's another thing too, is sometimes, you know, sometimes as much as you love someone, there's a certain joy at being home alone.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, totally.

Jason Lange: There's like a freedom in that, I think. You know, both Violet and I have felt sometimes it's just nice.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: When you just have your own space to yourself and then your partner comes back and you get to bring them back into that. But.

Melanie Curtin: Oh, totally. You can leave dishes in the sink. You can like.

Jason Lange: Right, Exactly.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. You can do whatever you want.

Jason Lange: Those little things that are like things are your things you can do for that small period of time.

Melanie Curtin: Right. I really like that because I know a lot of couples have a ritual around date night, but I also like the idea of alone night or something. Like space night or.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Friends night or whatever it might be or. And plus, you know, the other great thing about space is it gives you room to not all have to, like, all the same things.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Not have to drag your partner along to something that they just don't enjoy.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: That they just don't enjoy. Like, I've been there, I've had. I've made partners be there. You know, sometimes I'll drag Violet to things like that. And there's those moments where it's like, oh, it actually probably would have been nicer of me to just bring a friend who really likes this, you know, or vice versa. So again, it's another way to just take care of your partner.

Melanie Curtin: That's a great point. I'm actually imagining that conversation of like, hey, want to go to this film? I know you're not really into indie flicks. I want you to feel like you can say, I'd rather not. I'd rather just stay in with my book. Like, I want, you know, prefacing it with that instead of like, hey, I'm thinking of going with a friend of, like, I'd love to give you this night off if you want it. You know, just having the awareness of that. Yeah. I really like that.

Jason Lange: You know, I. I went to Guns N Roses like that. A friend of mine invited me because his wife wasn't in the Guns N Roses, and we had a great time. It was awesome. And then he went home super happy and excited to see his wife.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And. And you too.

Jason Lange: And she was super happy. She didn't have to go sit in Dodger Stadium for three hours, you know, so it was a win, win, win.

Melanie Curtin: So true. All right, so as we wrap this up, is there anything else that you feel compelled to share about negotiating this connection versus space?

Jason Lange: It's an art, you know, like, so many things, but better to. I think another thing is better to presence it as early as you can as well, to become aware of it.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And then it's not like, well, you never said that before. You know, they can imagine how that would be. But just that, hey, you know what? I just know I need alone time sometimes. I know sometimes. Sometimes I just really love going to movies alone.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Like, it's just my ultimate bliss. I love going with my partner, but there's some movies, I'm like, you don't want to see those. And I just want to go and not have to worry about anyone.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And it's a, you know, beautiful, beautiful thing. And that's something we established early on.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Which I think is great as well.

Melanie Curtin: It's a good point. I also imagine. Yeah. Having. Having the conversation perhaps at some point, not in a moment that you need the time.

Jason Lange: Exactly.

Melanie Curtin: Could be cool. Like, you're just, you know, out to dinner. You're like, you know, I've had this come up in past relationships about alone time, and this is what I notice I need sometimes. How about you? And then having it be an exchan amazing. Instead of just, yeah, you're gonna be.

Jason Lange: In the cutting edge. If you're dating and you do that early on.

Melanie Curtin: Well, you're already cutting edge because you listen to this podcast. Let's be real.

Jason Lange: You're gonna drop it to another level because that's advanced in all the best ways. Like, what a gift to bring to. To whoever you're seeing.

Melanie Curtin: That's really true. Awesome. Well, I think that wraps this up.

Jason Lange: Fantastic.

Melanie Curtin: Let us know what that wraps up another episode of Dear Men. Thank you for listening. If you want to reach out, we would love to hear from you. We're on Instagram and Twitter, Earmen Podcast. That's Earmen Podcast or Facebook. We have a group Dear Men Podcast. We also have an email address, dearmen podcastmail.com if you want to join the Big Sexy Data Set, the community of people who regularly respond to the surveys that we talk about on this podcast, just email us at that address, dearmen podcastmail.com and we will set you up. Have a sexy day.