389: 8 reasons why it’s so hard for men to let go of relationships that aren’t working | Dear Men

Jason Lange: Cause some guys, you know, they haven't dated in decades or years. And there's a feeling of I don't know how to do it. I don't know how I'm going to do it. Where do I even meet people? What do I even want? I feel totally ill equipped. And so there's just this deep fear that for as dysfunctional as the relationship may be, clearly this person has never really left me. So it can be safe, right? There's a type of safety there. And not having to confront that fear of the unknown.

Melanie Curtin: Hi everyone. Happy Thanksgiving and Black Friday. This episode is dropping on Black Friday and yes, we are running a special for that day. So if you book a call and enroll in our flagship coaching program, Pillars of Presence, which you've probably heard us reference on the podcast before. If you book a call and enroll within the next week, I.e. black Friday through Friday, December 5th, you will receive several bonuses. First, you will get two bonus calls with both me and Jason during the program. You will also get free access to one of my streaming courses. You can choose between please her in bed or cock control. And you will also get a free spot in Jason's men's group program next year, 2026. And you'll be able to choose your own timing around that. So if you're interested, just go to Evolutionary Men. Apply to book that call. And as a reminder, that program includes coaching, yes, but it also includes training, community. Part of the program's purpose and the structure of it is to connect you to other open hearted, growth minded men. If you feel like you don't have enough community in your life, if you want to end 2025 and move into 2026, building that community, building that structure. And if you want to also receive coaching at the same time while making friends, please join us. We would love to have you. And without further ado, let's get into this episode and you know that I always want to hear from you. Dearmen podcastmail.com hi everyone. Welcome back to another Jason Lange episode. It's been a little while since we've had you on the podcast. Thanks for being here.

Jason Lange: Excited to be back.

Melanie Curtin: Yay. So today we're talking about why it's so hard for men to let go of love relationships even when they're not working. So this is a pattern we've definitely seen. And it is autumn. It is fall. It is a season of shedding and letting go right now. It is a season of leaves and other material dropping to the ground, being composted re Earthed, turned back into soil. And I would say that overall I believe that we have a positive frame on letting go when appropriate. And we're going to talk about what happens when that tree just doesn't want to let go of its dead leaves and it's just hold, it's grasping on, it's tightly grassing onto those dead leaves. And why, why do we do that? Why especially why do men do that? And I, in preparation for this, looked up some social science studies and I'm not going to be referencing specific studies, but when there is social science behind it, I will mention that, but there are, this has been studied and there are actual reasons for this. So. Yeah. Why is it so hard for men to let go of romantic relationships that aren't working? We have eight reasons that we've outlined here and let's just dive right in. This first one I would say doesn't apply to everyone, but for those to whom it does apply, it is quite compelling. And that is, I don't want to hurt my partner. Can you speak a little bit to what we've seen in our men or what you've experienced personally around this one?

Jason Lange: Yeah, this has definitely shown up in our community and men you and I have each worked with individually around, you know, not exclusively, just limited to nice guys, but oftentimes the types of relationships that are really hard to get out of are ones that sometimes have some codependence of a kind. And there's a feeling a lot of guys really want to avoid of. I don't want to hurt my partner. What happens if I, if I leave her? How will she survive? How will she get take care of herself? Etc at one end of the extreme, the other end of the end of that is just okay, maybe she can handle herself, so to speak, but I don't want her to think I was just using her or leading her on, right. And so I'm just going to kind of stay in it. But there's actually a deep type of care that, you know, I don't want to hurt my partner because I can tell they want to be in relationship with me and for me to say no, they're going to have to feel some uncomfortable feelings. And then if I don't really know what I'm doing, it's very easy to fall on and I'm the source of those uncomfortable feelings, right. And it's my fault that my partner, you know, got depressed afterwards or nose dived in some regard and nice guys just don't want to do that, right. We don't want to hurt. We've talked before about how that shows up early in relationships for nice guys. Being afraid to commit. I don't know if she's the one. So I don't want to, you know, go all the way in or say yes. But it shows up in these kind of relationships, too, that, wow, if I leave her, she's going to be angry at me or hurt or feel grief that she wasn't enough for me or whatever that might be. And holding that tension that someone else, a woman doesn't like them is often the thing that a lot of men will want to avoid. Oh, my God. What if I break up with her and she's mad at me or hurt and she doesn't like me anymore? That. That's a whole reason to stay in for some men.

Melanie Curtin: I'm really glad you brought that up because I think that one of the themes that we're going to see through all of these is that it's really important to bring in mentorship and friendship and outside perspective and trustable others. I think a lot of what happens in romantic relationships that aren't working is rooted in Isol. And, yeah, I'm trying to find another word for isolation, but that's really what it is. And that even if there are others around, if you're not truly confiding in them and if they're not trustable. Right. They need to be trustable for this to work. But if you're. If you're trying to figure all of this out alone, it's going to be really hard. And I think what we've seen repeatedly is that being part of a meaningful community and having trustable people to talk to and run things by, and it's invaluable. There's. There's no. It's invaluable. There's no replacement for it. And it can really help shape your future and really help you determine what to do. So, yeah, that fear of not wanting to hurt a partner, I. I think I resonated the most with what you said about holding tension. The ability to hold that tension of I might take this action and it might be hurtful to this person. Can I tolerate that? I tolerate knowing that. Can I tolerate that in my body, mind, Can I hold that tension or is it too much? I'm overwhelmed. I can't even fathom that experience of not being liked or whatever goes along with that. So I think that's very wise and very much rooted in childhood. Right. That's. That's not about the now. That's. That's about. That's about the old past, but it's showing up now. And I do think that there's. There's a lot of truth to that. And I think that that's part of what personal growth is helpful with, is being able to hold tension, being able to hold opposites, being able to hold paradox, which many, many belief systems around the globe sort of equate maturity with the capacity to hold paradox. And.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: And continue forward. Right. Not being. Not being paralyzed by that. So we're gonna keep it moving here because we've got eight of these to do. So that's the. That's the next one. Number two is a big one, a really big one. We put those up front. Number two is, I'm afraid I won't get anyone else. I'll be alone forever. If I don't make this work, then I'll die alone. And this is often an unjustified fear. But for a lot of the men that we work with, I really feel like there's an element here, I'll just throw into this one also, of how I've been with this partner for so many decades. Right. We were young when we met. We've been married for 30 years. We work with men like that all the time. Who. I do think there's a sort of. What do I even. Like, what even happens. I don't even know what that would look like. My whole kind of world, my identity, my. My family system, right. My. My family. Not my nuclear, not my family of origin, but my family now is. Is here involved with this woman. And I don't even know what would be next. Right. It's been so long that I've been in this groove, in this pattern, that it seems almost unimaginable what would. What would happen. I don't know what would happen. And I fear being alone. I'm afraid that I won't have another partner. Can you share a little of what you've observed in our men around this?

Jason Lange: Yeah. I mean, it's just a terror about being alone and that maybe this is the best I'm ever going to get and I'm going to regret it if I leave. So even if I'm just getting a sliver of connection or what I want, that's better than nothing, right? Is often the kind of black and white thinking, and depending on how long you've been in a relationship, it's also. This is one that really can just be confronting because some guys, you know, they haven't dated in decades or years. And there's a feeling of I don't know how to do it. I don't know how I'm going to do it. Where do I even meet people? What do I even want? I feel totally ill equipped. And so there's just this deep fear that for as dysfunctional as the relationship may be, clearly this person has never really left me. So it can be safe. Right. There's a type of safety there and not having to confront that fear of the unknown. And a lot of what drives this, you know, we've often seen, is undiagnosed self loathing and low self esteem. Just this feeling that I can't attract someone better who honors my boundaries or is curious about actually growing together or whatever that might be. And so there's just this fear of this is it, so I gotta hold on for dear life because I'm not worthy of anyone else, let alone I wouldn't even know how to get them if I actually went for it.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I am moved by that, that sense of paralyzation and just fear. And what's interesting about this conversation is that you and I have seen a lot of men move through this in our work together. You know, we've seen a lot of men go from feeling paralyzed to, to feeling. What is the word? It's not confident isn't quite the word, but resolved or accept. You know, there's a sense of I'm gonna be okay, I'm gonna be okay either way, I'm gonna be okay, I'm gonna be okay if I stay, I'm gonna be okay if I don't stay. And that leads to a sense of freedom from which a man can make a sober assessment of a relationship rather than. Because it's not really a sober assessment. When you're terrified of being alone, there's not really a choice. You're not really making a choice. Whereas when you have that sense of being rooted in something greater, including loving, healthy community, it's. It's just a different place to come from. So yeah, I really felt you around. This is it. I've gotta hold on for dear life versus I'm an adult and I'm making a decision about what's best for me and the people I love and one of the people I love. So my dreams actually matters, my needs actually matter. And I think that's often the journey that I witness in a lot of the men that we work with is going from my needs don't matter to a felt sense of my needs matter. And I matter. It's not that I matter more than other people, but my needs matter. I'm not going to sacrifice all of my needs and kind of sweep them under the rug anymore. I'm actually here. I'm actually a person. I actually exist. I actually matter. And that's a different place to come from. And different decisions are made from that place.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's really just about not excluding oneself. So I'm going to value my needs as much as someone else's. And again, it ties right into the roots of self esteem. Because if I don't believe I'm worth it, I'm not going to ask for it. So this is where it can be really confronting to start to transform and change and realize, wow, yeah, if I don't ask for something, probably not going to get it. And so for me to ask for it, I have to just have a deep sense of, yeah, my needs matter too. And, you know, we work with a lot of guys too, who have kids and. And as soon as we're like, well, what lesson do you want to teach your kids? They're like, well, I want to teach them that, yeah, their needs matter and they should be in a healthy and reciprocal relationship. And then they start to see it and the light switch goes off of, oh, but I'm not actually doing that for myself. And that becomes a huge shift.

Melanie Curtin: I'm so glad you spoke to that, because I do think that that's. There are a few episodes that are loud for me if you're resonating with this conversation. And one of them is called should you stay together for the kids? If you are a father, and you are. I'm just going to say it. If you're a father and you're in an unhappy relationship, listen to that episode. It's important. And there's another one that we did called how do you overcome the fear of being alone? So if you resonate with this part of this conversation, I do recommend that you go back to that one. It's episode 377. I will drop it in the show notes. So the next one is somewhat related to this. I think we'll keep going here. Number three is that men often rely more on their partners for emotional support. So the fear of loneliness hits men harder. And I have had personal experience of this. I'm gonna. I'm gonna share briefly. So I've been in two love relationships, one of which the man was not connected to any men's groups or I would say meaningful male community. And he did have he did have community, but he didn't have meaningful men. He didn't have meaningful male community. And I really think that there's a. There's a difference between that. There, there's. There's something that happens, and I know we talk about it ad nauseam, but it's because it is this important. There's an org called Sacred Sons, and their motto is brotherhood is the medicine. And I really love that because I feel like the, the social structure we're in keeps men apart and socializes men to not be close. And that leads to such a depth of, of loneliness that a lot of men don't even realize it's just the water they're swimming in. They don't even realize how much that sense of aloneness in the world is impacting everything in their life until the medicine arrives, until they feel what it is to be genuinely loved, genuinely loved by the masculine, genuinely supported, genuinely seen and heard. Because most men didn't get that from dad. That's the truth, if we're being honest. Most of our ancestors, most of our parents generated generation and their parents generation and their parents generation were not emotionally attuned, did not have the time or the energy or the capacity to deal with family trauma. So they just passed it on. So most men didn't get what they needed from dad, and they certainly didn't get what they needed at school. Most men. I'm pretty confident in saying this now that I've been doing more education. Most men were bullied in some way. Not all men, but most men when they were boys. When they were young boys, they were bullied in some way. And that is what they learned about men, boys, men. They learned it wasn't safe. It's not safe. The culture was not safe. And that never goes away unless you do something about it, right? Unless you have reparative, restorative experiences with men. You know, we did another episode of this part is resonating called do you trust men? And I strongly urge you to listen to that because there's a lot, there's a lot of stuff in there. But the, the, the short version of this is that men tend to rely on their partners for emotional support because they don't have close, deep male friendships, especially over time. You know, some men do have some in their college years or in their 20s, and then they disappear because people get married and they have kids and they live in these little isolated nuclear families and nobody sees each other again. And the social science is also pretty clear that women in general are much Better at staying in touch with people. And men are not very good at that at all. Again, not their fault. It's just part of how they're patterned. So yeah, that reliance on emotional support showed up for me in this contrast between these two love relationships where there was one man who did not have meaning meaningful male relationship in his life and then there was one who, who did. And I remember when, I just remember feeling into their experience of life after this breakup and I remember the man that did have meaningful emotional support from men, he, he told his men's groups what was going on. You know, he told them about the breakup, he told them what was happening and they were able to be there for him in a, in a really deep way that I feel like eased that transition significantly for him. And then the other man just didn't. So. And I remember thinking, wow, the way that I have lived my life, I have prioritized and centered close friendships, including the way that I actually live. You know, I have a co living community, I have a co, co housing community. I have connection in my house. And neither of these men had that right. Both of them lived alone and they would have to go outside their house. They would have to seek out connection rather than connection just being built in. And that makes a huge difference. So when I, when I thought about it, I thought, wow, this is an asymmetrical experience that we're having. This is going to be worse for them than it is for me. And it's because of all the things that we're talking about. It's really, you know, about all of this stuff. But what I will say is that I was, I was much more confident about the man who had men's groups in his life. The man who had, you know, spent time and energy investing in personal growth and men's groups. I was a lot more confident about him and his felt experience of the world after that. The other one I was more worried about, like this is going to be, this is going to be really hard for you. This is going to be much harder than it needs to be or, you know, and I think what I just really want to emphasize is that personal growth matters and connecting with other people who are into personal growth matters and having community, meaningful community in your life matters. It's the scaffolding, it's the, it's the, it's what's underneath you, right? It supports you, it catches you when you fall and you want to have it built before you fall. You know, that's the thing is you want that to already be there. You don't want to be falling and also trying to build community. But I, you know, I mean, there are lots of ways to build community. And I do think that we, you know, we have some men in our community, for example, who are like, whoa, I'm falling. You know?

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: And that works too. But I think that there's really something to be said for truly investing money, resources, energy, attention into building strong community, especially with other men.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I'll just add here, I've probably used this analogy before, but we're coming up on the holiday season, so just a quick reminder, Christmas lights. So for those, you know, some people decorated with them, some didn't back in the day. But back in the 80s, when I was growing up, a whole string of Christmas lights used a single series circuit. Right. Which just meant if one bulb went out in the string, the whole string went out. So the whole string would go out. And then we have parallel circuits. Right. Which new strings have. Which mean if one bulb goes out, the whole light strand doesn't go out. That's what we're kind of talking about here, where the problem with. So many men are raised in a culture of other men are a threat, competition, enemies, something to be scared of. And some of that's very real lived experience in that to be a man means to not share or be vulnerable with other men because you gotta be in competition with them. And so the only safe place is with your feminine partner to share what's going on inside. And then we have kids in a family, and suddenly our whole system gets concentrated on this one single node, our relational partner. And so if that doesn't work and we leave, suddenly the whole thing blows up. But what we're talking about here is male community in particular creates a bigger system, a bigger circuit that has some redundancy, some other pathways, so we don't have to put everything on our intimate relationship and can actually process with other men.

Melanie Curtin: Absolutely. And I think that's one of the things that we've really seen grow in our community and change men at a fundamental level. I'll never forget one of the men that we worked with within the last year or two said something like, wow. If I look back at the tough points in my life, one thing that I see missing is men's groups, male community. I didn't. I didn't have them. And he said something to the effect of when I. If I imagine having that in my life at the. At that point, I feel like those transitions would have been a lot Less difficult and long. Right. It's like, wow, I was depressed for a really long time, or I was stuck for a really long time. But it's like, I imagine if I'd had community, it would have just the, the transitions would have been easier. There just would have been more cushion, more support, more, more aliveness. I'm not sure what the word is, but yeah, there's just, there's something about social isolation that's really damaging and just extends bad things. It extends the bad periods because, yeah, just having more people involved. You know, I always remember your story, Jason, about just the practical support of you needing help moving, you know, moving houses, moving furniture, moving items. And you texted your men's group and several of them showed up and you had strapping men there to help you move your shit and you didn't have to hire someone and they care about you, you know, they love you. So it's not just them helping table, it's them giving you a hug and saying, I'm here and I'm going to be here when you need me. There's something about that that's deeply reassuring. That's deeply reassuring to the human spirit. So we're going to keep going here. Number I think we're on number four, which is. Men often equate relationship failure with personal failure. I would love to hear you explain this a little bit. Yeah.

Jason Lange: I mean, as men, you know, most of our paradigm is winning and losing. And either we're winning or losing. And the story culture teaches us is, you know, a successful relationship is one that lasts forever. Right. And so this idea that if I leave my relationship, that means the relationship was a failure and my relationship was a failure, man, I'm, I'm 45. Like that means I'm a failure, right? Shouldn't I be an established loving for life relationship at this point? And so it just collapses together. And this is something we often work with our men around of realizing a relationship doesn't have to last forever to be successful. Right. Did we grow from it? Did we learn from it? Did we become a more happy whole human being in the process of it? And learning to tease apart those two is so important because most of us men are just walking around looking for excuses to internalize our low self esteem and why we're failures. And so if our relationship doesn't work out, rather than this frame of, oh, we just weren't a fit, right? We just weren't a fit in values or lifestyle, it's, there's something wrong with me because I Couldn't make it work.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. And the social science supports this. I was looking into some things, and I didn't know some of this, but men do tend to feel more personal responsibility for the success, quote, unquote, success of a relationship. They are more likely to interpret a breakup as a reflection of their self worth, their competence, or their masculinity, whereas women are more likely to interpret relationship outcomes as a mutual dynamic, not a personal failure. I think that's really important, and I think that's been true in my life. When I've looked at, you know, relationships that I've been in, I have definitely felt grief, and I have definitely felt like, wow, if I were more healed, I would be able to make this work. Right. If I had less trauma, I would be able to hang out and be triggered when he does these things that really, really upset me. Or I've definitely had some of that. It's not an entire, you know, entirely blank canvas on that front. But I have also recognized there are ways that he and I are not a good fit. We don't have the same love languages. We don't express ourselves in the same way. He is never going to be as into cuddling as me. That's a problem for me. And that's not, I am a failure or there's something wrong with me. That's kind of like you said, leaving is more, this isn't the right fit rather than I failed. So I do. I do really think, like, the social science is pretty clear that men really do tend to feel more personally responsible for the success or the outcome of a relationship than women do. And I think that's a fallacy. I really do think that there. There are two people involved, and it's not just. It's not anyone's fault. I do also think that personal growth is extremely important. You know, like, if you've made your. If you've gotten yourself to this podcast, you probably already recognize that. But I just. I think I just want to keep saying it really works. Personal growth really works. You really do grow, and you really do attract different relationships after you grow. I mean, we see that repeatedly with our men. It's unbelievable what we've seen. You know, the. The relationships men used to be in and now the ones that they're having. I mean, just such a stark contrast. And a lot of them have never actually had the experience before of being truly met by a partner, and it blows their little minds. They're like, holy shit, this is what I was missing. I didn't even know this was on the menu. I did. I truly did not know that. And I, I want to make the analogy here that if you're having trouble grasping onto this concept, maybe you can grasp onto it. Profess. You can have a terrible job with a really bad manager for a long time, and you can be working on making it work and twisting yourself into knots, contorting yourself to try to please this unpleasable manager. And then you quit or you're fired. Either way, you get into a different job. This doesn't always happen, but it's definitely happened to me and a lot of people I know. And suddenly you're in a totally different environment and it's a healthier culture overall, and people actually appreciate what you did. And instead of criticizing you for what you didn't do on the project, they're like, wow, I really appreciate that you stayed up late on Friday. I recognize that you did that because you knew that I had this, this thing this weekend. Thank you for doing that. You're like, oh, my God, somebody appreciated what I did and told me about that. And I feel seen, I feel valued in this culture. It, it's, it's. I think it. I think there are a lot of, there are a lot of similarities between those two experiences because you can stay at a job for decades, you can stay with a bad manager for decades and think that it's your fault for decades. And then you can get out of there and into a new scenario and think, whoa, I should have left a long time before I did. Now I recognize that it wasn't all me. You know, there was an exchange there. There's me and my manager. There's me and my love partner. It's not all on my shoulders. Can you speak very briefly to that in terms of men taking kind of all the responsibility?

Jason Lange: Yeah. I mean, it ties into. Again, you can start to see how these unfold. If we have a lack of self esteem, we just assume it's our fault rather than, oh, I'm part of a system. And certain things don't work as well as they could in this system. And it's not a right fit. Right. It's not even, I'm bad or you're good. It's just we're not, we're not a match in this way. And this is such a big thing for guys to realize when they do leave some of these relationships like you're talking about and realize, oh, I've internalized that this was all me. But it turns out I put myself in a Different context. And the very same behaviors are experienced. Completely different, but differently by a partner. Right. Many men I know experience this if they ever do polarity work in person, which in most of the workshops, the way it works is you can come with a partner even if you're in relationship, but throughout the weekend, you're actually going to be put in front of different partners to do some individual work and practice. And this is like mind blowing for some guys where they've been hearing the story, you're so da da, I can't do that. And then suddenly four other women are like, oh, no, I can totally feel you. I can. And it's like, oh, okay. It's not all just me. There's also something on my partner's side and vice versa. And that realization. And then when they leave that and just, just like you're working, stepping into a different workplace where it's a better fit. It's like going from 2D to 3D. Whoa. I'm allowed to ask for something and my partner tries to give it to me. Or I could stay home tonight and she's not get upset with me or whatever that might be. It's like, so a huge new dimension of possibility opens up that often makes us realize, whoa. I was living on scraps before and I didn't even realize it. But now that I've taken the risk to try something new and realize it's not just all me, but every relationship is co created. Wow. Turns out when I'm with a partner who's willing to play ball, things can get a lot better much faster.

Melanie Curtin: Ooh, I like that. Yeah. When I'm with a partner who's willing to play ball, we can have a ball game, a fun ball game where we're both playing instead of. I keep tossing the ball over and it's just, she's just standing there. It's just the ball drops. There's no game. It's not. Nothing's happening. And it's just so discouraging. You know, I. I really think that's one of the most gratifying parts of our work, is helping men to take that risk that you talked about. Helping men to take the healthy risk, helping them to let go, helping them to shed the old. And I'm not talking about giving up too soon. I'm talking about holding on for too long. It's not the same thing. And it's, it, you know, there is a lot of patience and evaluation and it, it's not easy. But there is something really important. What you Use there that word risk. And what I've seen repeatedly is that as people feel more supported and as they feel like they have more resources and mentorship and community behind them, with them among them, it's easier to take those risks. And before that, without that, it's much harder to take those risks. So we're gonna just keep beating that drum of community, community, community, and mentorship. So number five, I think this one's so interesting, and I've thought about this a lot over the years. Men often process emotions after the relationship ends, so studies show. And this. This became obvious to me, honestly, Even in early 20s, this became very obvious to me that studies on breakup ad. So women tend to feel breakup pain more intensely at first, but recover more fully. Men often feel less initially, but the emotional processing gets postponed until they're alone. What I have seen repeatedly is that myself, a woman and women that I love in my life, we process the pain of a relationship and the relationship not working or breaking up as it is happening. So we are experiencing pain and suffering while we're in the relationship, and it's not working while we're in the breakup. And in the immediate aftermath, I joke sometimes that for men, it's like 21 days later. You know, 21 days later, they're like, oh, my God. Whoa, this is. This is painful. Now I'm suffering. And they don't have any where to go with it. You know, our society, our culture is so weird with men and feelings and emotion and grief, and they just don't even know what to do with it. So what often happens is that they don't actually process it. They numb in some way. In some way, they numb. They numb through alcohol, through porn, through marijuana, through working workaholism. That is real. There's a lot of different ways to do it, but that's really different than actually feeling the feelings, actually feeling the grief, actually being supported by mentors or community or. You know, I think a lot about kind of like the way that we used to live. I mean, in ancient cultures where we often had big bonfires, we stomped our feet, we sang, we danced on a very regular basis. Call and response. We were together around the fire, and we. We sang, we danced, we processed. We moved energy and emotion through our bodies on a very regular basis, A very regular basis. And we did that. There were ceremonies around grief. When someone died, the tribe gathered and there was keening, There was moving energy through the body. Our culture has none of that. Zero. Nothing. Nothing. There's a. There are a few Tears. At a funeral you're allowed to weep. You weep. It's not even an ugly cry. You just weep. And that's it. That's it. And that's the end. Then that's the end. So I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of truth to this and I can't explain it. I don't know why there's this kind of delay factor, but it's definitely part of the equation. And I'm curious to hear from you what you've observed as a man who's been connected to men. Because I'm more of a woman who's been connected to women. I'm connected to men through my work. But what have you observed about this sort of delay factor?

Jason Lange: I think it actually says, partly stems from what we just talked about in the previous one, that. So if my place to emotionally process is with my significant other and then my significant other is gone, I'm not processing. And then it takes me being at home alone, feeling, oh, this would normally be the night that da da da or whatever, that it starts to hit, that it starts to land. And again, many men we work with are deep feelers. A lot of us are not trained on how to be in our bodies and feel our emotions. So sometimes there's just a lag. Right, There's a lag too. But a lot of it I think is because. And this will tie into so many of the things we're talking about. Yeah, a lot of men just aren't as relationally inclined by default. So if I'm going to engage or reach out to another man, it's because there's some kind of outcome or thing we're going to do, which I think is a little different than not for all women, but for a lot of default female culture there's. We're connecting and relating just because it's pleasurable to. How's your day going? What's your day going? Right, like that's it. There's just like a, an ongoing stream of back and forth. Whereas men, it's not that way. Right. It might go weeks or months and not even talk to my best friend. And so again, if I've removed myself from my primary place of intimacy, that delay often comes after. And I think men sometimes intuit that and feel, well, it's going to be really hard. So I don't want to break up because what am I going to do? You know, I've shared this story before too. My long term relationship before I met my wife was A very challenging relationship to leave for all kinds of reasons. And it wasn't until after it happened I realized, ooh, I can see. This would have been kind of impossible for me to do without my men's group because it happened on a Sunday. I literally walked into my group Monday night through the door and burst into tears. And if I hadn't had that group, I would have avoided that for a long time because my other choice would have been to sit at home alone and probably just jerk off to porn and numb myself. So I needed to have that structure already there to catch me when things got tough. And I think a lot of guys don't build that structure while they're in relationship, which makes this back end of leaving one so much more intense.

Melanie Curtin: Well said. Could not have said it better. Quote of the episode and we are here. There are lots of groups like ours. There are places to get community at any stage. I want to be very clear about that. Whether you're contemplating leaving a marriage or you're in one and you're not sure, or you're recently divorced, wherever you are, you can always build meaningful community. Ours is just one of many and it is absolutely worth it. We're going to keep rolling here to get through these. Number six men often stay because of investment model thinking. This is basically the sunk cost fallacy. So the investment model of commitment, a foundational relationship psychology theory says commitment increases based on 1, satisfaction, 2 investments, time, money, shared life. This includes your house, right? Both your co, you're cohabitating. Number three, lack of alternatives. Men score particularly high on the investment sunk cost fallacy, meaning I've put so much into this, I can't just walk away. So even when they're unhappy, the time, effort, memories already invested, feel too valuable to abandon. This is. I'm going to tell a very quick story. When I was growing up, I studied Japanese. I was a Japanese major. I'm from Oahu originally. And I knew I could get a good job in the wedding industry or the tourism industry if I spoke Japanese fluently. So I studied it in school and I majored in IT in college. And I was studying abroad in Japan in the computer lab. I had written an eight page paper in Japanese, which by the way, is fucking really hard. And the computer ate it. I. The computer ate my paper and I was devastated. And this was a shared computer lab. There were maybe 12 of us around. And I had this wig out moment and I turned to everyone and I said, why do you study Japanese? And I listened to their answers Everyone was sort of, you know, taken aback, but we had a really good conversation. And some people said. Some people said things like, I love anime. I love the culture. I love the art. You know, I really love it. But a lot of people said, well, I've been doing it for so long. I've been studying this language for so long, and it's such a hard language. I've been studying it for so long that that's why I do it. And I remember thinking to myself, that's not good enough. I'm not staying with something just because I've been doing it for a long time. It's not enough. It's not good enough. And I think there's obviously a strong parallel here, right? Which is like, why are you doing it? Why are you in it? What is. What is happening here? Is it enriching your life? Do you feel more alive because of it? Does it help you feel connected to the grace of the planet? Are you excited? Are you fed by this? Do you feel meaning in it? Or have you just been doing it for a really long time and you've got a lot wrapped up in it? Those are two different questions. I don't want to spend too much time on this one because I want to make sure we cover the other ones that we have on our list. But do you have anything to add to that in terms of what you've observed in our men around sunk cost?

Jason Lange: Yeah, again, it's. It's. It. It just ties right into that idea that if the relationship fails, I fail. Then it means all this effort and time I've invested was for nothing and I made the wrong choice or I didn't have what it takes. And so there is just this. Sometimes, you know, I'm just going to be stubborn and figure it out. And oftentimes a lot of our men, guess what? Guess who modeled that for them? Their parents that stayed together in a totally dysfunctional relationship just for the kids. Something we've talked about many times before. And so there's this belief, and some of this is generational too, right. I heard this about my grandparents. Well, no matter what, they stuck with each other. And the truth was, yeah, there's some real love and commitment there. And there's also some cultural pressure that back then you couldn't differentiate as a woman, you didn't have the opportunity to leave. And even then, and these days, there's. That belief gets passed on, you know, whether it's religious or cultural or whatever, that you stay until the end, even though what we See is oftentimes it creates substantial damage to both partners and instead actually exiting is the greatest gift. And we see this, you know, not all the time, but many men we've seen who have children together with a partner, they, they leave the relationship and once intimacy's off the table, their co parenting relationship gets so much better because they're not having to dance around this part that's not working. And it turns out they can kick ass just managing the kids together and having their own intimate lives outside that.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I feel we have countless stories, but I'm thinking of one where, oh man, they were just in such a place of tension. They had like an 8 year old and a 10 year old, I think 8, 10 and 12 or something. And long story short, he was really unsure what to do. He worked with us, we helped him gain clarity and he, they, they stayed cohabitating, but they separated as spouses and they each actually started dating other people, co parenting the whole time. And they're thriving. They have so much, so much more expression, so much more joy, so much more aliveness. There's just so much more available in the system like you said, because they told the truth. This isn't working. We're not, we're not a match. We're not a romantic match anymore. Maybe we were 25 years ago when we met. Things have shifted. I've grown in this direction, you have grown in this direction. Let's tell the truth about what's actually happening with the support of mentors, with the support of a community, with the support of grief. Work. You know, this guy did his work, he did his fucking work. And a lot of that work was about his family of origin. It wasn't even about what was unfolding in that house at that time. But as he did his work, these, these truths came and the structure reshuffled and everybody was more served, including the kids, because like you said, they got to see their parents happier, smiling, laughing, having a good time, experiencing life instead of just trying to get through life, just trying to survive. So number seven is an interesting one. Number seven is men often try to fix instead of leave. So men are socialized to approach problems with a solution mindset. So even in failing relationships, many men stay stuck in. I can fix this if I just try harder. We've come this far, I should be able to make it work. I've been reflecting a lot on that. Make it work, man. If you're trying to make it work, it's not working. I think a lot of the times if you're trying to make it work, it's not actually functioning. And this is one of those. I can, if I, yeah, I can just, I can fix it, I can fix it, I can fix it, I can fix it. And if it's not the right fit, then it's not actually possible because you are not the only person. It is a co creation. There are two human beings, and if she doesn't want to play, you cannot make her play again.

Jason Lange: This one just builds upon a lot of the ones we're, we're talking about that our identity gets tied into the success of the relationship. And for a lot of guys, part of masculine identity is I can fix things. If it's broken, I can get the tool, I can make it work. I'm resilient, I'm tough, I keep going no matter what. And sometimes we just have to realize, okay, it's not about strategy at this point. It's just not a fit. And oftentimes what we've seen is this is where it takes just a neutral third party in a sense to just kind of call it as it is. It's like, hey, I could see you're really trying, I could see your partner's really trying. And yet it's still not, not working. This isn't like a, oh, we just need to do this one little thing. It's just, it's not a match, it's not a fit. We're not aligned on this. And so we have to let go of this belief that we should be able to fix everything as men and sometimes just call it where it lies. Right. Okay. This is, this is the end. This is, this is how this one goes. And that's okay.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. And that leads us right into our last one, which is narrative identity that men anchor their story in their relationship. So some men tie their identity into being a protector provider, partner identity, long term plans, future focused thinking. And so there's this grip, there's this grip, this tight grip onto this is the way it's supposed to be. And you know, I can, I'm thinking of one of our clients right now who there's just such a sense of, oh my God, everything's gonna fall apart if my marriage dissolves. And what's interesting is that we repeatedly see, I would say in our work that what actually happens is that things reshuffle. It's, it's sort of like rearranging furniture. All of the same pieces are there. The kids are there, the ex spouse is there, the in laws are there. Everybody's still there. You just reshuffle. It all gets kind of like shuffled around. And in the same way that you sometimes you'll restructure a room, you'll move things around, you'll put up a mirror, you'll take away a rug, you'll, you know, put in hardwood floors, whatever. All of a sudden, the space feels more open. It's not that the space has changed, but it feels more spacious. It feels like there's more light, there's more possibility, there's more brightness. That's what I've seen again and again and again. And thinking of one of our men, and I think this, I want to name this before this episode ends, that a lot of the time what we have seen is men who are. Have big hearts, are sensitive and want more intimacy. And I'm not just talking about sex. Yes, sex, but closeness, affection, warmth, love, devotion, excitement, passion. They want more. They want more. And they want it to be with this woman that they've married, but she doesn't really want that. Yeah, she doesn't really want it. She's not really available for it. She doesn't want that. She doesn't want the warmth, the closeness, the intimacy. She doesn't want to, let's say, look at her trauma history and figure out how to be more open and more surrendered and more available. She doesn't want to do it. She doesn't want to do it. And so there's this. What I've seen is men banging their heads against a wall of this partner who's like, I don't want to do it. And then when they finally let go, let go. When they finally let go of that, then they become available for a plethora of women who are like, I do want that. I do want affection. I do want warmth. I do want openness. I do want, you know, I want to play that game too. And then they get that, and they are still co parenting with the. With the spouse. They're still, you know, there's still involvement. They're still. They still see them. They're still, you know, good feelings, good vibes, not intimacy, not the same, not what they were craving, wasn't available with her, but it is available in the world. I think that's really the message that I kind of want to impart, is that there is value to letting go. It is important for those trees to let their leaves go and let them die and let them be composted so that new life can then arise. There is a natural cycle of death and rebirth in life. In Our world, in our natural world. And sometimes that's reflected in relationships. And I think our culture is very poor at telling that story. Right. We do have this kind of, I don't know, systemic, like grit and determination and powering through, and you do it no matter what. And that's just not actually very natural. Yes, there is a role for grit, but there's also a place for letting go, and it's really important. So as we're wrapping up, is there anything you would add around that, that piece of letting go? Especially you, you know, as a man.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'll just add, you know, part of what's confronting about leaving a relationship, particularly in terms of identity, like you said, is, you know, one of the things I've told men is, right, you gotta be able to answer three questions, who am I? What do I want? And where am I going? Or how am I gonna get there? And that's the thing so many men drop once they get into a relationship and they become identified with their job, they become identified by being a hu. A father. And they actually lose track of who am I inside? Not the things I do or the things I have, but who am I? What do I give a shit about what makes me uniquely me? That's not just these external things. And when we leave a relationship, we have to get confronted by that because suddenly all these roles that were taking the place of us knowing our identity, those roles are gone. And so if we don't have a firm identity underneath that, it can be quite scary. And like you said, the beauty is as you let go into that, particularly as you let go into community, of into community, you can discover yourself in a totally different way that lo and behold, you're gonna even. You're gonna be able to attract a better relationship because you're gonna actually know who you are, not based on these roles, but by who you've grown into and who you've become. So it can be a big challenge to let go in these ways. But we've just seen time and time again, it's worth it. And oftentimes it also ends up giving your partner the opportunity to discover who they really are and grow into the relationship that fits them even better. So it can actually end up being a win win.

Melanie Curtin: Absolutely. And if you are interested in coaching with us, you can go to Evolutionary Men Apply. And I talked a little bit about our Black Friday special that we're running at the beginning of this episode, so you can always go back to that. But it is quite enticing. So if you're interested in working with us. Now is a really good time. And happy autumn. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da.