385: Are you in a sexless marriage? | Dear Men

Melanie Curtin: No, you're on a roll. Go ahead.

Jason Lange: Sometimes I go back to things, but, you know, there's just this other thing that I think you were mentioning too. One of the differences between often males and females, some of it cultural, some of it biological, is just self relationship to pleasure and sexuality. And what I mean by that, right, My wife Violet's been on here a lot. You've already mentioned it a little bit here today. You know, unfortunately, the way our culture is set up and even the kind of traditional relationship structure, for a long time when marriages were like more of an economic function than anything else in a large part of the world, a lot of women haven't necessarily ever had the opportunity to build their own relationship with their sexuality that is not about pleasing someone else, but is about self exploration. And, you know, the stat I saw was at least here in the US among adolescents 14 to 17, you know, it's basically just under 75% of boys had reported ever masturbating in barely half of girls. And that's gone up in the recent years. And my guess is even that number is a little different because the type of people who are willing to be interviewed and report about that are probably even a little more open than a lot of people would never answer the phone or just never even fucking talk about sex or masturbation or that kind of thing. So point being, you know, a lot of times us boys, we're just more familiar with our equipment and it's kind of harder to ignore. You know, you just wake up one day and you're like, what's that going on down here? Okay, well, that feels good, right? It's a little different for women, right? It's like if, you know, my wife has certainly talked about, like she didn't even know what was going on down There, Right. Like that there was something down there for a long time. Because how would you know necessarily, it's not exactly as visible as with men. So this, this desire thing and connection to sexuality, I think is an important thing. And I, I just don't think all men necessarily understand that the experience of where women are coming from and this is, again, you know, sexless marriage is a big deal we don't want to minimize. And it's just so complicated in that often both partners really have some responsibility in terms of how things are playing out. It's not always the case, but it is often the case.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that reminds me of a quote by Mama Gina, who's an author and an activist, and she says women learn to compromise before they learn to come.

Jason Lange: Yeah, there you go.

Melanie Curtin: And I agree with you, Jason, that there's a whole bunch of physical aspects of this and cultural aspects of this that, that do kind of, what is the word, I guess, sort of prevent women from exploring their bodies and exploring their sexuality in a healthy and open way. There's just so much shame and there's so much crap around all of it. And then they, and then, you know, everybody's bringing all their stuff into the relationship, right? So women are bringing all this stuff, men are bringing all their stuff, and then you have them not talking about it, not talking about any of the stuff in a skillful way, in a skillful, open hearted way. And I think that's part of why spaces and places with good mentors can be helpful. Right. So sex therapy, couples therapy, coaching programs, all of this stuff can be helpful. And the other thing I want to say is they can also not be helpful. You know, it really depends on who your couples therapist is, who your couples counselor is, who your sex therapist is, whether they are skillful in their own jobs, you know, and one thing that we've mentioned on here a few times, which I'll. I'll just go over again, is that it? It really helps, I would say, both men and women to be in spaces where they are not with their relationship partner, especially around sexuality. Right. It's like there's only so much that a woman is going to be able to do in relationship with her partner. Around sexuality, a lot of healing work needs to be done outside that container. And often in spaces with only women, with only folks that have had a similar lived experience. There's just something healing about that. It's a different kind of space. There's a different kind of relaxation that can happen there. It's the same thing in Our program. There is something about men getting connected with other men and seeing their own stories, their own lived experiences reflected in other men that has them relax on a deep, deep, deep level. And then to know that they are supported, that they are backed up, that they have someone that cares about them, that knows their story, that's rooting for them, that's not their relationship partner, there's just, there's just something about that. There's a, there's a kind of elemental force of connection that comes in that changes the dynamic, that can change the dynamic. And so I, I, I wanted to say that because I know there are couples out there, and maybe if you're listening to this, you are, you are part of a couple like this, where it's like, listen, we've tried counseling. We've tried it. It didn't work for us. And we, we get those stories. We get those men. We, we are, you know, we've had multiple men have experiences like that. And often they say, you know, I've gotten more out of this retreat or I've gotten more of this coaching program than I did out of three years of individual therapy or of couples therapy or these other modalities. Because there's an inherent limitation, I think, in a lot of them. And then in, in those modalities, meaning the one on one structures or the two on one structures for couples work. And then you add on top of that, not everyone who's in those spaces is good there. There are plenty of folks in spaces who don't totally know what they're doing, or it's, you know, they're overwhelmed. They've perhaps never heard of borderline personality disorder and don't really know what they're dealing with. And so they're just kind of perpetuating dynamics in the relationship, or there's different seasons that we need different mentors in different seasons. So I guess I just wanted to say that it is complex and it can feel overwhelming, and there is always a path forward. It's always possible to get help and to try things, to take risks, to experiment and to move forward. And I'm remembering, you know, one of our guys that we worked with years ago was in a pretty, pretty cold marriage. Like, when I say cold, like, I don't think they were having sex. I see. I don't remember talking about it explicitly, but I'd be seriously surprised if they were having sex. His wife was very avoidant, I would say very avoidant. And part of what was really painful for him was that they had two Children. And she was really affectionate and wonderful with the kids, that, you know, she had a great relationship with the kids. And so he felt extra left out and extra on the outside and shut, shut out. You talked about rejection, you know, and it felt to him like no matter how I bring it up or when I bring it up or what I say, there's just no receptivity. She is just, she is closed off. And throughout our work together, which was only a few months, you know, I mean, God, yeah, the program is four or five months long. It's not that long, but it's. He did really good work. And one of the things he realized was, wow, this dynamic really reminds me of my mom. I remember feeling shut out, shut down on the outside, cold. Like I always wanted more, I wanted more affection, I wanted more attention, I needed more from her. And she just never gave it to me. And wow, hey, look at that. I've basically repeated that dynamic in my marriage. And then long story short, he chose to exit the relationship. And this was a big deal. This was, you know, they had two children, they had to figure out housing and all the rest of it. Fast forward. I mean, not even six or nine months, maybe, maybe nine months. He got on the dating apps, he got photos done. He had done a lot of healing work through the program and after the program and he met some wonderful women that it where he, it was like night and day for him of like, wow, this is what it feels like to be with a more open, receptive woman partner. And we've talked about this on the podcast multiple times, but one of the things that we've seen repeatedly is that when you as a man do your healing work, your growth work, when you expand your consciousness, the type of partner that you attract changes. So you expand, you grow you up level in your state of consciousness and then who, you attract changes. If you don't do that healing work, if you don't do that growth work and consciousness work, you will very likely just keep repeating the same patterns. So if you've noticed that you've attracted similar partners over the years, that won't keep happening if you do the work, if you engage, if you grow your consciousness. So for him, he'd grown a lot, he had done a lot of work, he had shed a lot, he had really, really leaned in and really taken it on. And long story short, he probably dated some really great women for like a year, year and a half, something like that. And then he found a wonderful woman who he has a really open, loving, stable Connection with. They recently moved in together. They're having a great time. They have really connected sex. And my point is that there's. There is also a dynamic at play here where if you're. If you're with a woman partner and you have approached them skillfully and you have tried repeatedly, and you. You worked on it and worked on it, worked on it. There is a point at which it's like this particular woman in this particular moment is not interested in growing. She doesn't want to do it. She does not want to engage. She is not available for that, and that's okay. That's her right. It's her choice. You. You don't need to force her into anything. She gets to make that choice, and then you get to make your choices based. And what I would say, repeat what. What I have witnessed repeatedly in our men, and I would love to hear your perspective on this, is that we have definitely seen many men go through the program and choose to mindfully exit relationships, whether they're marriages or not, where the closeness and the intimacy isn't there. And that's the thing. You know, you mentioned that phrase, men are dogs, men are pigs. Men only want one thing. Men just want sex. That. That vibration of negativity and blaming and shaming and, you know, anger, right? There's such an. There's such a furious anger behind those kinds of things. And it. It comes from somewhere, right? It comes from trauma. I understand that. But there's. So. It can be really damaging for men because they start to internalize that. Like, I'm a pig, I'm a dog. I'm. I'm a shameful, disgusting man because I want sex. But really, when I hear our men talk about it, my experience, my. My understanding of it is it's not just about sex. It's about love. It's about connection. It's about that moment of feeling close and vulnerable and connected and deeply kind of ensconced in one another. That's what it's about. And it's conflated with sex. Just, you know, you just pee in the V. That's all you want is just a fuck. You just want to bang. Like I'm just an object to you. There's so much rage there, which I. Which I understand as a woman. Like, I get. I. Trust me, I get it. And I think that's really sad, and it's a big miss, because that is not the only thing happening in those moments. And for the men that I've. I've witnessed over the years who have mindfully engaged with their, with their partners and really tried to move forward in this arena and then have kind of basically gotten repeated no's from their, from their wives or from their partners. And we've kind of gently guided them on. You know, she's, she's not available, she doesn't want to do it. She does not want to do this growth work. She's not interested. And that's her right. It is her body, it is her choice. And you get to make your choice based on that. Is this enough for you? Is this enough for you? Or do you want more in your connection? Do you want more in your intimate life? And again, it's not just about sex. There's something about openness, availability.

Jason Lange: Love.

Melanie Curtin: There's just, there's something about what I think a lot of men are craving is an open partner. They want an open partner. And sometimes based on the level of consciousness that they were 20 years ago, 10 years ago, whenever it was that they got together with this woman, they weren't at the stage where they were ready for that or prepared for that or available for that. So they attracted a closed partner. But if you're willing to do the work, you're willing to open, you're willing to look at yourself, you're willing to do your work, then you may find that you need to close off a certain relationship and open yourself up to new possibilities. And I can't tell you how gratifying it is to watch man after man. You know, there's another one I'm thinking of who, whose ex wife had borderline personality disorder. They had a child and he, you know, he navigated exiting that, that marriage while he was in the program with us. And we keep in touch with our alumni. And he's also in an incredibly happy, loving, long term, committed partnership now. You know, he had a little bit of a road to get there, but it's so much more fulfilling. It's so much more open and fun and loving and healthy. And you know, they are having what you call desire sex, right? Not duty sex. They're having desire sex. And it's not just about orgasms. It's about connection and it's about fun and they laugh together and there's, there's joy, you know, and I think that's, that's, that's the thing about these stuck places that couples can get into where it's just this repeated routine or it's just this. There's so many kind of heavy things that we're not talking about. And they're just sitting in the room and there's like, it's just, it feels like thick fog or something where it's just like, oh God, that's awful. You, you, you guys do not need to stay there. You do not need to stay there. There are choices, there are ways, and a lot of it starts with. With growing yourself.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I think a couple of key things I want to name there, this reality. I think one of the many challenges, particularly for couples that met when they were younger, if you don't have a deeply connected self relationship to sexuality and clarity about your values, you can kind of end up with a partner. And you never really talked about what place is sex going to have in our lives and how important is it to us. And I think this is one of the big struggles a lot of couples get into where there's a lot of implicit understanding, but it's not explicit. And you know, I often referred to. We did a Q and A with our friend Dr. Glover once and he kind of talked about, yeah, one of the implicit agreements of monogamy is I'm agreeing to not have my sexual needs fulfilled outside of this relationship. Which even implicit in that then means, so it's going to come from you. Because we're both sexual beings and oftentimes that stuff is so deeply buried and then one person starts to realize it's not working and you find, wow, we're just not aligned in our values. To me, sex is really important to him or her. It's just not at all. And that creates a lot of struggle if that's not identified early. So if you're a single guy listening to this, this is why it's really to get clear about what you want, what your values are and how to talk about that early on in a relationship to make sure a partner's aligned. And if you're already deep into a relationship to learn the skills to start to bring this forward of, yeah, what place, what do we actually believe? What do we value? How do we want to feel in our sexuality to really talk about that and bring it from underneath to above board. In a sense, is this a priority in our relationship? And what a lot of our guys will find out is to their partner, it's not right because sometimes they're shame or trauma or something. She's just not really ready to go do the painful workaround. And, and then it becomes a choice point for the, for the man, like, am I gonna do I wanna stay in this? If my partner's unwilling to grow like Am I okay? Tolerating a partner who she has every right to be there, but he still has to realize then he has choice if he wants to be with her. And sometimes exiting is an important part of that because, again, like, what we're talking about here is both partners often have something to do here. And there's a lot that falls on us men, too. And, you know, there's definitely some that. That that falls on women. And, you know, one thing for listeners have heard my wife Violet on here, one thing I've grown incredibly appreciative of her over time is her willingness to take responsibility for sometimes getting herself in the mood. And this points to some deeper things here around you. And I have talked about the book Come as you are from Emily Nagasaki, who talks about responsive desire and spontaneous desire, and that feminine desire is often responsive. Right. So in. In one of our original webinars, right. I would talk about it's our desire that often ignites her desire. So if we're not kind of bringing it forward, it's often hard. You know, she's not often going to be like, hey, I want to, like, jump your bones right now. In quite the same way, a lot of times, us more masculine, spontaneous desire partners are. And responsive desire isn't necessarily just in the moment. It's responding to a spectrum of connection over time and in an environment around it, in a sense. And that's where I know I have really struggled in my marriage. And a lot of guys have are. Is I say, you know, okay, now I want to have sex. She should be ready, right? And it's just like, that's how my nervous system works. That's not how my partner's nervous system works. And have I been connecting with her ahead of time, physically, emotionally, doing my part around the house so that her body can be relaxed, my body can be relaxed. These are things I've really had to get a lot more conscious about. And where I've then sometimes been met by my partner is sometimes her body's not there, but she understands we value this, and so she can feel it or we talk about it. And she knows how to work with herself to kind of get herself more in the mood. So it's not forcing herself to have sex with me right out of duty. It's. Well, I know for my body to get there right now, I might need to go take a bath or go listen to some music, and then I'm going to be more receptive to his energy as it comes to me. And I think this is like an incredibly generous thing for female partners to learn to do. And it strikes me there's some parallels in this, in that. Right. We often talk about the heart and the. Or the heart and the genitals and the kind of cosmic joke I've talked about that, you know, not always, but there's a orienting generalization that oftentimes for the feminine, the path to opening their sexual energy is through the heart. It's like when the emotional connection there, when the heart is connection there, when I'm being present, when we can just fully be here with each other, when that presence is there, okay, they can open and there's like, real desire. And for us guys, it's often the opposite way. Like, once we're feeling wanted and desired, our hearts start to open and we feel like we can connect. And there's this joke. We're kind of want the same thing, but coming at it from different angles. In I could tell you, I think us men have something to do here as well on our side. That just strikes me as a parallel is sometimes if our partners, you know, want to emotionally connect and we're not ready, there are things we can do to say, hey, I really want to be present for you and hear this, but I'm not ready yet. I need to go sit in my office for 10 minutes and do some breath work or relax or just whatever I need to do so that I can prepare my body to fully receive you emotionally and connect. And there's things we both have to do around this that are so key in that, you know, can be a hard conversation with some of the guys, you know, we work with that are coming and kind of more that sex list. The connection's not there. And then I'm like, well, you know, where are you leading? To create the conditions that would make her want to have sex with you? Right. This is a big thing too. This is more that desire thing, because I think that's the thing most of us men and most of the men we've worked with really want. It's. I want to feel her wanting me, wanting sex. And that does something so deep for my heart, for my soul, for my feeling desired, that if I don't feel that, it's. It's like hollow. And it's actually sometimes kind of painful even if we are having sex. And so what does it take to make her. To support her wanting to want you? And it turns out it's rarely just about sexual technique or, you know, stuff like that. It's the whole life and Structure around it, including as men, how present in our bodies are we, how much tension are we carrying, how much communication can we lead, how much can we talk about the value of sex in our relationships and how much work are we really doing around this? And so, you know, it doesn't fall all on her and it doesn't fall all on him. A lot of the times and the painful reality we have to work with guys around is what we can control is you, like you work with Mel and I, we're going to help you look at and soberly see where do you have work to do in terms of how you're contributing to the dynamic and what can you take responsibility for and take control over in terms of terms of how you're showing up in your body, how good you feel in your body, how relaxed you are, how much you're using sex just as emotional tension release versus connection. Like these are deep things a lot of guys have to. To relearn. How much are you getting connection from other men so you're not desperate for this type of physical connection release with the feminine, with your. With your wife, which puts all this pressure on her. And like, there's a lot for us guys to do there. And we might do all that and like you said, find a partner who's just not a fit for us in terms of the value of a healthy sexual connection and expression in the relationship. But if both partners are willing to work on it, it's incredible how much things can change and how it doesn't just fix itself. It has to become a priority in the relationship, including, despite all the crap we're fed by Hollywood, Sometimes we actually have to schedule it. This is a value to us. Just like having a healthy body is a value to us. So we blank out time on our schedule to go to the gym to work out. Sex is a value to us, so we need to actually put it on the schedule. Sometimes there will be spontaneous interactions and there's. We need to create the container for it to actually happen in Versus. I think for a lot of us men, we just kind of hope it'll happen at some point and then grow kind of resentful if it doesn't. Versus, hey, I want us to really connect more around here. We have that discussion around values and then we actually set up the structure. And certainly what we found in our marriage is the more sex we're having, the more sex we want to have. Right? It's generative in that sense. The less we're having, the more all those hormones kick in and we kind of separate from each other. But when we're putting it as a priority, it actually tends to start fulfilling itself. But there has to be that mutual choice there. And, you know, I just want to share with men again, as we probably start to wind down here, that it is a big deal and yearning for this and missing it. It's not just because you're some, you know, horn dog, shallow guy. Sex is deeply entwined with our ability to open and feel connected. And not having it is a big deal. Like, it's actually okay to admit that it is the kind of thing that it can be worth ending a relationship around, because this is it, right? This is, this is your one shot. You don't get another life in this body in this form, and it's often not going to magically fix itself. So if you have a partner who's not willing to work on it, it then it becomes your responsibility to make a choice. Am I okay living in this or do I need to take some kind of action so I can deeply honor this, this part of me that I, I, I respect and want to express and want to have a deep connection with. And that can be so just utterly powerful, you know, when it's really fully online and our sexuality is becoming a vehicle for expressing and communicating to our partners how much we value them, in a sense, how much we like enjoying them and that as we feel, you know, I think this would be just one last way to phrase it. You know, there's something beautiful I've experienced in a when the safety and emotional connection is there. There is actually a deep type of pleasure when we can feel our partner taking pleasure from us. Right? That's that kind of desire sex. Like, oh my God, I can feel how much she's being nourished by my presence, my body right now. And she can feel how much I'm being nourished by her presence, her energy, her body right now. And that's like, feels amazing to give to a partner and to see them receiving it. And I think that's the thing a lot of men are really longing for. And some don't even realize it's possible that it doesn't just have to be this robotic thing, but can be this deeply connective, generative thing as well.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, it's beautiful the way that you describe that. And I'm remembering one of my mentors. One of the reasons I'm a podcast host is because I listened to a podcast way back in the day by Alyssa Something in San Francisco, and she had a guest on, and the guest was asking her about. She. She'd had sex with her partner the night before, and he was asking her about it and the way she was describing it. And then he said something like, and what's the deeper. What's the deeper thing that you two were doing? And she thought about it, she paused, she took a breath, and she said, we were expanding love in the world. And that's always stayed with me. Right. What does healthy, nourishing, connected sex do? It expands love in the world. It's worthy. And there are a few things I want to follow up on from what you said. One of them is for any of you out there that are parents, I really want you to consider, what are you role modeling to your children about? Love, relationship. We did an episode called are you staying together for the kids? And I will drop that into the show notes. And I want you to consider whether you would want your kids to be in your marriage. And there is more than just you to consider. If you are a parent and it's. It's important and that more is possible and it might not be within the structure of what you have now. It might be. We do see couples who, you know, there was reverse polarity or neutral polarity, and he did the work and he basically repolarized the relationship and the couple was able to make it. So it's not just one way. Right. But there's a certain element of mystery to it. We, as teachers, we can't know your situation until you share it with us. Until we're working with you, it's impossible to know. But there is a lot that can be done on your side, and that is. Is the work that we do. And what I will say is repeatedly, nothing is wasted. Right. If you do your growth work as a man and it doesn't work out in your current relationship, it's going to serve you moving forward. Whether it's with this partner or another partner, there's no going back. It's only going to serve you. It's only going to enrich you. And what you said, Jason, you know, you kind of touched on it. But I'm going to drop another episode in the show notes that we did called are you using your wife for sex? Which is about, you know, that. That sense of needing connection with her, needing sex or intimacy with her, because you don't have it anywhere else in your life. And. And I'm not talking about you don't have friends or you don't have connection or community. You might have those things, but the depth and the level and the degree of trust that is there. We don't live in a culture that supports men being close with other men. We don't live in a culture that supports men having close, deep, rich, intimate, connected relationships with other men. It's just not the culture we live in. And so you actually have to take action and do something to get that, to get there. And that's part of, I think, the value and utility of work like ours, which is that again, it isn't just one on one. There is a group aspect, there is a group component. And we do that on purpose because that is a healing space for men. Men need to be in community with each other. They need to have that depth of connection. It just generates something that's irreplaceable. You cannot replace it with anything else. And when you feel that level of support and connection, then you're coming to your woman from a different place. So I will also drop that in the show notes. And I really loved what you said, Jason, about, you know, it's worth it, it's worth it. It's worth fighting for this. It is important. It is meaningful. And again, I think if you're, if you're a parent, then you kind of get that. You know, it's like you, you understand that you want your kids to be in a fulfilling love relationship someday. I think most of you. And would you want them to be having the experience you're having or would you want more for them? You know, you, you aren't a bad man because you want connected sex.

Jason Lange: Sex.

Melanie Curtin: That is not, that is not true. So I guess just to be really explicit, it's normal, it's healthy for you to want connected sex and you can have it and may take some, some, you know, some doing to get there. So as we start to wrap here. Yeah. If you are interested in our work, you can go to my site melaniecurtain.com or Jason's Reach out to us. If you go to Evolutionary Men apply, then you can book a call and see if there's a fit. And we would love to, we would love to have you. We are ready to work with the men who are ready and you don't have to stay stuck. Anything to add?

Jason Lange: No. Okay. If anything was going to come, but.

Melanie Curtin: Okay. And if you have any questions or comments, you can always get me@dearmen podcastmail.com It. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da.